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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Cancer / March 2005

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dr gold and hydrazine sulfate

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Socks the Whitehouse Cat - 25 Mar 2005 04:31 GMT
i had a couple of people try to talk up hydrazine sulfate and dr gold's
advocacy of it, including sending me links. they have some of my family
convinced.  i went looking for independent info and found the discussion on
quack watch as well as some brief commentary from J here late last year.

any reason to discount the skepticism on quackwatch? J - do you still feel
the same way?  if i just read dr gold's stuff it sounds very convincing.
then i read the rebuttles and it's way less convincing.  trouble is that
the people who favor it seem convinced there is a vast conspiracy out
there.

Signature

"...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving
safely in one pretty and well preserved piece, but to slide across the
finish line broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out, leaking oil, and
shouting GERONIMO!!!" -- Bill McKenna, date unknown

Steph - 25 Mar 2005 06:36 GMT
>i had a couple of people try to talk up hydrazine sulfate and dr gold's
> advocacy of it, including sending me links. they have some of my family
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> the people who favor it seem convinced there is a vast conspiracy out
> there.

Socks, It's rubbish.............
http://www.bccancer.bc.ca/PPI/UnconventionalTherapies/HydrazineSulfateHydrazineS
ulphate.htm

Willcox - 25 Mar 2005 08:16 GMT
> i had a couple of people try to talk up hydrazine sulfate and dr gold's
> advocacy of it, including sending me links. they have some of my family
> convinced.  i went looking for independent info and found the discussion on
> quack watch as well as some brief commentary from J here late last year.
>
> any reason to discount the skepticism on quackwatch?

Quackwatch is a load of crap.

The defination of a "quack" is someone who claims to have medical skills
he does not possess, yet they list a PHD who taught medical school as
simply a doctor and a quack:

<http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/krebiozen.html

> J - do you still feel
> the same way?  if i just read dr gold's stuff it sounds very convincing.
> then i read the rebuttles and it's way less convincing.  trouble is that
> the people who favor it seem convinced there is a vast conspiracy out
> there.

Quackwatch lists the competition, quacks and cures.
Emily - 25 Mar 2005 12:28 GMT
not_giving@you.my.address.com said...
> Quackwatch is a load of crap.
>
> The defination of a "quack" is someone who claims to have medical skills
> he does not possess, yet they list a PHD who taught medical school as
> simply a doctor and a quack:

But was he a *medical* doctor?  I don't know where you are so
I can't comment on your perception of a PhD, but certainly in
the UK a person with a PhD would never be seen as having any
medical experience at all.  Heck, my husband was nearly one of
those (thesis failed to meet the deadline - so what's new
<g>), and I have far greater medical knowledge than he.  My
qualifications?  A lapsed RLSS certificate, lapsed first aid
certificates, and a mother who used to lecture in first aid
and nursing for the Red Cross.  Oh, and access to Usenet,
where I reckon I've learned more in the last however many
years (on all subjects you care to mention) than I ever
learned through my formal education at school and beyond.
Signature

If you can keep your head when all around are losing theirs...
then you've failed to grasp some important aspect of the
situation.

Willcox - 25 Mar 2005 21:02 GMT
> not_giving@you.my.address.com said...
> > Quackwatch is a load of crap.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> the UK a person with a PhD would never be seen as having any
> medical experience at all.

The UK has somewhat different lettering. I don't know what PhD means in
the UK, but in the states it's the highest level degree available.
Nearly all instructors in college have PhDs.

> Heck, my husband was nearly one of
> those (thesis failed to meet the deadline - so what's new
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> years (on all subjects you care to mention) than I ever
> learned through my formal education at school and beyond.

Professor Ivy taught medical school. He was the vice-president of the
University of Illinois. He led medical research on cancer. He was a
board member on what is now called the American Cancer Society. He was
called to be an expert witness at the Nuremberg Trials. This list goes
on. Do an Internet search why don't you?
Steph - 26 Mar 2005 00:08 GMT
>> not_giving@you.my.address.com said...
>> > Quackwatch is a load of crap.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> the UK, but in the states it's the highest level degree available.
> Nearly all instructors in college have PhDs.

And it's nothing to do with medical qualifications.

>> Heck, my husband was nearly one of
>> those (thesis failed to meet the deadline - so what's new
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> called to be an expert witness at the Nuremberg Trials. This list goes
> on. Do an Internet search why don't you?

Lots of people "teach medical school" without being medically qualified.
What's your point?
Willcox - 26 Mar 2005 04:01 GMT
> >> not_giving@you.my.address.com said...
> >> > Quackwatch is a load of crap.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> And it's nothing to do with medical qualifications.

If his qualifications don't qualify, then whose does?

> >> Heck, my husband was nearly one of
> >> those (thesis failed to meet the deadline - so what's new
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Lots of people "teach medical school" without being medically qualified.
> What's your point?

I think it's at the top of your head, pointing right at the defination
of idiociy.
Emily - 26 Mar 2005 10:14 GMT
not_giving@you.my.address.com said...
> > What's your point?
>
> I think it's at the top of your head, pointing right at the defination
> of idiociy.

At the what of the which?

Signature

If you can keep your head when all around are losing theirs...
then you've failed to grasp some important aspect of the
situation.

lisabucc@hotmail.com - 25 Mar 2005 15:52 GMT
>Quackwatch is a load of crap.

I'm not sure that I would go that far.  I think like anything else, you
have to take it with a grain of salt.  Barrett is out to get many in
the medical community - the good, the bad, and the ugly.  Unfortunately
for the good ones that he sets his sights on, he manages to
misrepresent things.  However, I think that the truths on his site
outweight the falsehoods, but you should continue to question
everything you read online and do your own research.
Willcox - 25 Mar 2005 21:19 GMT
> >Quackwatch is a load of crap.
>
> I'm not sure that I would go that far.

How about contributing to mass murder?
Would that be more accurate?

> I think like anything else, you
> have to take it with a grain of salt.

1.2 million Americans die from cancer and heart disease each year.
Considering that most people who take chemo and radiation die anyway and
the cost is astronomical, what would alternative cures do that
mainstream medicine isn't doing already? What are so many alternative
doctors imprisoned when they don't flee the country?

> Barrett is out to get many in
> the medical community - the good, the bad, and the ugly.  Unfortunately
> for the good ones that he sets his sights on, he manages to
> misrepresent things.  However, I think that the truths on his site
> outweight the falsehoods, but you should continue to question
> everything you read online and do your own research.

My reseach says most people I've known who have gone with chemo and
radiation end up dead within about 3 to 5 years.
Peter Moran - 25 Mar 2005 22:22 GMT
>> >Quackwatch is a load of crap.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> My reseach says most people I've known who have gone with chemo and
> radiation end up dead within about 3 to 5 years.

Cancer patients who get both chemo and radiation often do so because they
have very life-threatening cancers, so you would expect a high mortality
rate from cancer amongst those.    Your "research" is also biased by the
fact that you have little reason to be conscious of the fifty per cent of
cancer patients overall who are cured by present methods.

Peter Moran
Willcox - 26 Mar 2005 04:01 GMT
> >> >Quackwatch is a load of crap.
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> have very life-threatening cancers, so you would expect a high mortality
> rate from cancer amongst those.

So a high mortality rate with chemo and a high mortality rate without
chemo.... so then what's the difference or the point between that and
quackery? or nothing?

>    Your "research" is also biased by the
> fact that you have little reason to be conscious of the fifty per cent of
> cancer patients overall who are cured by present methods.

I remember back when the mainstream media first pushed "early
detection"; At the time chemo and radiation were taking a lot of
critizism for dismal survival rates. "Early detection" did significantly
improve survival rates, but then so does treating people`who aren't
really sick, don't they? Do the math.

> Peter Moran

I see millions of people dying while the medical industry gets rich. For
crying out loud. If mainstream medicine had a 99% cancer cure rate at
low cost, I could see the establisment crushing anyone who dared to lure
a single patient away, but since chemo and nothing have about the same
survival rate, then what are we paying for?

BIG COST, WE DIE ANYWAY!

DO THE FREEKIN MATH!!
Peter Moran - 26 Mar 2005 07:42 GMT
>> >> >Quackwatch is a load of crap.
>> >>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> chemo.... so then what's the difference or the point between that and
> quackery? or nothing?

You have obviously never made any attempt to understand why certain
treatments are given, in the many different contexts that can arise in
cancer treatment.

Certainly in the most desperate straits, in some patients with advanced
cancer,  the gains are marginal in terms of survival rates, but they are a
hundred per cent for each of those whose lives may be saved by  the
aggressive treatment, and many others are spared the awful consequences and
early  death that can occur from uncontrolled primary cancers.

Furthermore, your belief that any "alternative" cancer treatment has a
measurable cure rate of cancer is based upon pure myth, rumour and hearsay.
It was never easier to prove the existence of cancer and to follow its
progress.   We know hundreds of thousands of patients with proven active
cancer are now using "alternatives" every year.  I therefore set you this
challenge ---try and find any well-documented first-hand accounts of the
cure of any of them with alternative treatments alone.       Such cases are
as rare as hen's teeth in proportion  to the numbers known to be using
alternatives, so rare as to raise doubts  as to whether any kind of
treatment effect is being observed.

Peter Moran

>>    Your "research" is also biased by the
>> fact that you have little reason to be conscious of the fifty per cent of
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> DO THE FREEKIN MATH!!
Steph - 26 Mar 2005 00:06 GMT
>> >Quackwatch is a load of crap.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> My reseach says most people I've known who have gone with chemo and
> radiation end up dead within about 3 to 5 years.

Well, the value of your research is limited, at best.
I recently cited a paper here on this NG which looked at the 5 year survival
of the 22 most common adult cancers (excluding skin cancers, for which the 5
year surbival is 95%+) in both Australia, which has one of the best cancer
registries in the world, and the US using SEER data.
The 5 year survoval rate is 64%  in Australia and 63% in the US.
So your assertions are sheer bunkum.
Willcox - 26 Mar 2005 04:01 GMT
> >> >Quackwatch is a load of crap.
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Well, the value of your research is limited, at best.

To the scientific community, yes, but to myself, what I see and hear
with my own eyes and ears is at least as good to me than any report or
study. Anybody with a brain, trust what you see and learn on your own
first.

> I recently cited a paper here on this NG which looked at the 5 year survival
> of the 22 most common adult cancers (excluding skin cancers, for which the 5
> year surbival is 95%+) in both Australia, which has one of the best cancer
> registries in the world, and the US using SEER data.
> The 5 year survoval rate is 64%  in Australia and 63% in the US.
> So your assertions are sheer bunkum.

Your's are certifiable.
Steph - 26 Mar 2005 09:59 GMT
>> >> >Quackwatch is a load of crap.
>> >>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> study. Anybody with a brain, trust what you see and learn on your own
> first.

I see.........
5 centuries of scientific method are out of step with you?

>> I recently cited a paper here on this NG which looked at the 5 year
>> survival
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Your's are certifiable.

No, they are based on evidence, not polemic
lisabucc@hotmail.com - 28 Mar 2005 13:42 GMT
>but to myself, what I see and hear
>with my own eyes and ears is at least as good to me than any report or

>study.

But what you're seeing is not a controlled environment.  If someone
gets better, who's to say that it wasn't the phase of the moon,
electronic charges from sunspots, or aliens who abducted them in the
night and supplied a "cure?"  That's why clinical studies are so
important. As much as I support some things that others might think of
as alt med (manual osteopathy, for example), I would still  recommend
that these be done IN CONCERT with conventional medicine.

Quick story to emphasize.  I have a friend who was diagnosed with stage
III breast cancer about 10 years ago.  She was given six months to a
year to live.  She applied for every clinical trial that she could
find.  Each one bought her six or so more months.  She kept
piggy-backing until she finally landed in one for Herceptin about a
year and a half to two years ago.  She's been NED since she completed
the trial.  That one conventional drug eliminated tumors that were
throughout her body.  If, 10 years ago, she had given up and bounced
around to some of the loonies out there, I'd be willing to bet a
sizeable sum that she wuld not be here today.

I guess it's an individual decision but I would hope that people would
make it after doing some research - and not the type that's full of
anecdotes and eye witness reports.  If you're willing to bet your life
on that type of information, that's your choice.  If you decide to
attack the medical community for perceived shortcomings, just make sure
that you have bone fide facts that can be backed up (and no, Quackwatch
doesn't count since Barrett tends to exclude any information that is
contrary to what he's trying to prove).
Willcox - 28 Mar 2005 16:03 GMT
> >but to myself, what I see and hear
> >with my own eyes and ears is at least as good to me than any report or
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> electronic charges from sunspots, or aliens who abducted them in the
> night and supplied a "cure?"

Your logic is astounding.

> That's why clinical studies are so important.

Clinical studies are vulnerable to corruption and frequently "prove"
whatever the person paying for it wants it to. They aren't like
published scientific studies that can be independantly repeated and the
results confirmed.

>As much as I support some things that others might think of
> as alt med (manual osteopathy, for example), I would still  recommend
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> around to some of the loonies out there, I'd be willing to bet a
> sizeable sum that she wuld not be here today.

I've known about 8 people who took chemo, only 1 lived more than 3 years
after and she never looked sick to begin with. I'd bet most of them
would have done a lot better on one of the better alternative
treatments. I'm sure most alternative doctors are quacks, but not all,
certainly Professor Ivy wasn't.

> I guess it's an individual decision but I would hope that people would
> make it after doing some research - and not the type that's full of
> anecdotes and eye witness reports.  If you're willing to bet your life
> on that type of information, that's your choice.

There's about 1 million new cancer cases in the US each year and about
600,000 of them bet on chemo each year and loose. How about that
clinical study?

>   If you decide to attack the medical community for perceived
> shortcomings, just make sure that you have bone fide facts that can be
> backed up

How about the fact that Harry Hoxsey was arrested over 100 times, but
never convicted because he always had plenty of patients who would say
their conventional doctor only gave them so long to live, then they went
to Hoxsey who cured them, and that was 5, 10 even 15 years ago. Many
were prominate citizens in the community. Even the DA who arrested
Hoxsey so many times became a Hoxsey supporter when his brother was
cured by Hoxsey.

So, is a trial by jury as good as a clinical study??  How 'bout them
facts? This is all easy to find on the net if you can sort through the
disinformation :o/

> (and no, Quackwatch doesn't count since Barrett tends to exclude any
> information that is contrary to what he's trying to prove).
Steph - 28 Mar 2005 18:13 GMT
>> >but to myself, what I see and hear
>> >with my own eyes and ears is at least as good to me than any report or
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Your logic is astounding.

Coning from you, conspiracy boy, that's rich
 
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