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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Cancer / April 2005Question for Steph re cucumin and radiation
Hi Steph (or anyone who can answer my question), My son Doug has recently started a course of radiation x23 following CHOP+rituxan at PMH in an attempt to banish his DLBCL tumour in his abdomen. Doug has been taking turmeric (curcumin) daily to complement his treatment. An oncologist today suggested that he discontinue the turmeric while he's getting radiation because its antioxidant properties may interfere with the benefits of radiation. Do you know anything about curcumin that suggests that it shouldn't be taken during radiation? Many thanks for any insights. Karen in Toronto Mother of Doug, age 41 dx 17/03/04 DLBCL & fNHL with bone marrow involvement CHOP X 4 + CHOP+R x 4 02/03/05 Radiation x 23 August 04, bone marrow clear. PET scan Nov. 04, DLBCL still active, partial remission. > Hi Steph (or anyone who can answer my question), > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Many thanks for any insights. I don't think anyone knows for sure, and such advice may well be on a "just-in-case" basis. I have not seen any direct evidence that antioxidants interfere with radiotherapy or chemotherapy, despite some theoretical reasons why they could. One thing that makes me dubious about this advice is that any good diet is likely to be already quite rich in antioxidants. Do oncologists ban nuts, oranges, apples? Steph? Peter Moran >> Hi Steph (or anyone who can answer my question), >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Peter Moran I agree, Peter. If you like turmeric, eat it, but like anything else, in moderation > "Karen Lynn" <karen.lynn@rogers.com> wrote in message > > Hi Steph (or anyone who can answer my question), [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > is that any good diet is likely to be already quite rich in antioxidants. > Do oncologists ban nuts, oranges, apples? http://www.bccancer.bc.ca/PPI/UnconventionalTherapies/Vitamins.htm There is at least a theoretical disadvantage in the use of anti-oxidants during radiation therapy (which works via oxidation processes). (Rheaume)" I couldn't find it using (Googling) with words .. Rheaume radiation antioxidant. J > > "Karen Lynn" <karen.lynn@rogers.com> wrote in message > > > Hi Steph (or anyone who can answer my question), > > > > > > My son Doug has recently started a course of radiation x23 following > > > CHOP+rituxan at PMH in an attempt to banish his DLBCL tumour in his > > > abdomen. Doug has been taking turmeric (curcumin) daily to complement his > > > treatment. > > > An oncologist today suggested that he discontinue the turmeric while he's > > > getting radiation because its antioxidant properties may interfere with > > > the benefits of radiation. Do you know anything about curcumin that suggests > > > that it shouldn't be taken during radiation? Peter said: > > I don't think anyone knows for sure, and such advice may well be on a > > "just-in-case" basis. I have not seen any direct evidence that antioxidants > > interfere with radiotherapy or chemotherapy, despite some theoretical > > reasons why they could. One thing that makes me dubious about this advice > > is that any good diet is likely to be already quite rich in antioxidants. > > Do oncologists ban nuts, oranges, apples? J said: > http://www.bccancer.bc.ca/PPI/UnconventionalTherapies/Vitamins.htm > There is at least a theoretical disadvantage in the use of anti-oxidants during [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > J From this report: "Oxidation reactions, which are frequently destructive to biologic molecules and involve combining a substance with oxygen, appear to initiate apoptosis and move it along. ...Too much antioxidant, researchers theorize, might interfere with these oxidation reactions, derailing apoptosis and leaving the precursors of cancer alive. The implications may be particularly serious for cancer patients. Chemotherapies often act by inducing apoptosis, so antioxidant vitamins, in theory, could interfere with chemotherapy." (Holzman) "High doses of antioxidants that may help prevent cancer could make things worse once the disease has struck, a study by Dutch researchers hints. Antioxidants such as vitamin C seem to prevent cancer by mopping up free radicals that can damage DNA. [However], Jurgen Karczewski and colleagues at Nijmegen University in the Netherlands say that free radicals can also kill cancer cells. If so, antioxidants should be bad for cancer patients because they remove radicals." (Day) Thanks Peter, J and Steph, I found this study at www.stormingmedia.us/27/2716/A271624.html which I find perplexing. Inhibition of Radiation Induced Pro-Survival Genes by Curcumin in Prostate Cancer Authors: Damodaran Chendil; KENTUCKY UNIV RESEARCH FOUNDATION LEXINGTON Abstract: In prostate cancer, constitutive activation of NFkB and AP1, non- functional p53 and defective androgen receptor signaling together may play a role in rendering intrinsic resistance to radiation in prostate cancer. Many reports in literature have showed that Curcumin (diferulylmethane is a major chemical component of a curry spice, turmeric) is a potent inhibitor of prostate cancer cell growth. It was found that Curcumin inhibits TNF-alpha mediated activation of NFkB and down-regulates Bcl-2 expression. From this reported observation, we hypothesized that Curcumin will abrogated the upregulation of pro-survival genes by radiation. Our preliminary data demonstrated that Curcumin significantly inhibited the growth of androgen-independent prostate cancer cell line PC-3. In addition, Curcumin conferred significant enhancement of radiation- induced clonogenic inhibition and apoptosis in prostate cancer cell line PC-3. Interestingly, Curcumin also inhibited the radiation induced prosurvival factors such as NFkB activity and Bcl-2 expression. These results underscore the need to formally study the functional relevance of Curcumin in synergizing the effects of radiation in prostate cancer. Since the proposal was funded for two years and the PI was asked to drop aim 3 and request to resubmit the aims. Hence, the first aim is completed in the proposed time. So, Curcumin (turmeric) inhibited the radiation induced prosurvival factors...Bcl-2 expression. Does this mean that Cucumin *interferes with* the good work of radiation? Doug doesn't like to just eat turmeric, he has been taking supplements. It's these supplements that the oncologist suggested he discontinue. Thanks all, Karen > "J" <plaid@example.com> wrote in message > ... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > <snipped - glad to see you read the rest> > I found this study at www.stormingmedia.us/27/2716/A271624.html which I find > perplexing. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > functional p53 and defective androgen receptor signaling together may play a > role in rendering intrinsic resistance to radiation in prostate cancer. <snipped - i don't know if any of that applies> Prostate cancer is a hormone fed cancer. http://www.prostate-cancer.org.uk/learn/prostateCancer/advanced/hormoneTherapy.asp Lymphoma is not (as far as I know). > So, Curcumin (turmeric) inhibited the radiation induced prosurvival > factors...Bcl-2 expression. Does this mean that Cucumin *interferes with* > the good work of radiation? > > Doug doesn't like to just eat turmeric, he has been taking supplements. It's > these supplements that the oncologist suggested he discontinue. Isn't it easier just to follow the oncologist's suggestion and/or what is your conclusion? J > "J" <plaid@example.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > cancer cells. If so, antioxidants should be bad for cancer patients because > they remove radicals." (Day) Thanks Karen. Peter and Steph are probably shaking their heads at us. It's hard to know what's the right thing to do is when they contradict that web page, but maybe they were just thinking about sprinkling a bit on various foods and/or thinking about those who are vegetarians...I wonder what advice your oncologist would say to someone who only mostly eats fruit and veggies and rice (or other for protein) ? I know you want the best for your son. It's very difficult to research having to wade through a lot of "claims". NCI doesn't seem too excited about it http://www.cancer.gov/newscenter/pressreleases/antioxidants but maybe I'm putting my own spin on this.. Antioxidants are substances that may protect cells from the damage caused by unstable molecules known as free radicals They're supposed to protect cells? so I wonder if he's worried that they also may protect the cells (cancer) that he's trying to obliterate? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3485508.stm Newer "news item" Doubt cast on free radical theory I'm just stoppping by to ask if he was taking those supplements during chemo? and mainly to send you some hugs and best wishes, ( ( ( Karen and Doug ) ) ) J > Thanks Karen. > Peter and Steph are probably shaking their heads at us. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > I'm just stopping by to ask if he was taking those supplements during chemo? > and mainly to send you some hugs and best wishes, > > ( ( ( Karen and Doug ) ) ) > J Thanks J. I need hugs sometimes! It's so hard so sort out information when there are apparently conflicting evidence. I can see why some people are conservative when it comes to antioxidants and cancer--witness your links above. But then there is this: http://pubs.acs.org/cen/topstory/8135/8135notw7.html and many more studies extolling the virtues of curcumin. Doug was taking curcumin supplements during chemo, and yes he told his onc who only replied, "Oh yes, I've heard of that." It was a different doctor who mentioned to him the other day that curcumin is not a good idea during radiation. It seems that different doctors have different ideas on the subject, and some have no opinion at all. Go figure. Thanks and hugs back to you. Karen > Thanks J. I need hugs sometimes! It's so hard so sort out information when > there are apparently conflicting evidence. I can see why some people are > conservative when it comes to antioxidants and cancer--witness your links > above. But then there is this: > http://pubs.acs.org/cen/topstory/8135/8135notw7.html and many more studies > extolling the virtues of curcumin. I would certainly appreciate Steph looking at that and the previous link that you provided. When I see the word "angiogenesis", I think of solid tumours, so I don't know if it applies to lymphoma or not. > Doug was taking curcumin supplements during chemo, and yes he told his onc > who only replied, "Oh yes, I've heard of that." It was a different doctor [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Karen Hi Karen, I did read yours. The (original) claim seemed to be that it mitigates skin reactions. http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/curprotskina.htm Turmeric, a common ingredient in curry, is used in some traditional Indian societies as a topical treatment for burns. Now researchers have shown that it can also protect skin during radiotherapy. (date: 2002) The apoptosis was in vitro. Malaysia is clearly warning against... (are you keeping count?) http://www.radiologymalaysia.org/breasthealth/Treatment/treatmentgoals.htm Alternative treatments Biologic, Immune, herbal, nutritional, mind-body and others. We cannot refute the popularity of these alternative treatments but the efficacy and success rates of some of these treatments have not been proven scientifically. If the patient wishes to proceed with these alternative treatments, they should not mix it with the treatment that their doctor has prescribed for them and must inform their doctor of it. It is known that some of these alternative treatments may cancel out the effect of the conventional treatment received. An example would be taking massive doses of anti-oxidant vitamins while undergoing radiotherapy.[] Meantime, your son's got to have his treatment; decision has to be made. Use radiotherapy (instead of radiation therapy). in your searches, in case you find something else. I'll try later myself if I have time. I'm betting we could keep url'ing each other for years.... In any event, another opportunity to send you more hugs ( ( ( Karen ) ) ) J For what is worth, let me share my story with curcumin. I had a recurrence of low grade lymphoma (stage 4), with a 7 in. mesenteric tumor mass. A first chemo regime took it down by 1/3. After a lot of internet research, I started on the following heavy dose curcumin regime, followed two weeks later by 1/2 dose fludarabine. After one month the tumor mass had been reduced to scar tissue, as shown by follow-up cat scans and biopsies. CURCUMIN REGIME 4(or 5 to be aggressive) 500 mg caps curcumin + 5 mg bioperine(to boost absorption), 4 times a day. You can get Bioperine (and the curcumin as well if you need to) from vitaminlife.com on internet or at 866-998-8855. It comes in 10 mg tablets which you break in half. Do not take more than 20 mg/day. You can also get curcumin with the 5 mg. bioperine added from a vitamin shop, so take one of those and the rest straight curcumin caps. You might want to take it with something on your stomach. The cottage cheese and flax oil (see below) works well in this regard if not taken at meal time. I also took mega vitamins a la Abram Hoffer, as outlined in "Beating Cancer with Nutrition" by Quillen, splitting dose into 3 or 4 and taking along with curcumin. Each dose (3 times a day) was: 400 IU Vitamin E 20,000 IU vitamin A 25000 IU BetaCareAll(Natural Factors 50 mg high potency Vitamin B complex 200 mcg selenium 1 tablespoon powdered Vitamin C(slowly build up to this dose over a few weeks) 2X1000 mg salmon and fish oils One other protocol is flax oil and cottage cheese (Johanna Budwig-check Google): 2 tablespoons in 1/4 cup cottage cheese, 3 times a day. You should also try to go vegetarian as much as possible, with lots of fresh fruit and raw veggies like cauliflower and cabbage (read Quillen). Green tea with red clover as often as possible is also very good. The only caution I know with curcumin is that bleeders have to be careful, as my wife discovered because curcumin is a blood thinner. This can be mitigated or stopped entirely by taking coenzyme Q-10 along with the curcumin. One thing you will have to decide for yourself is whether to follow this protocol along with chemo or radiation. I did because the Quillin book said that it actually enhanced the chemo and my onc was tolerant of me, but most oncs get upset. A possible alternative is to stop the protocol for 2-3 days on either side of chemo since I understand that the chemo is only active in killing cancer cells for a short time, but this might not be entirely relevant since the antioxidant effects might persist for a longer time. Read Quillen on this. I am pretty sure it was mostly the curcumin which caused the tumor shrinkage. Lots of research showing curcumin is effective on many cancers. > Hi Steph (or anyone who can answer my question), > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > August 04, bone marrow clear. > PET scan Nov. 04, DLBCL still active, partial remission.  SignatureUsing Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > For what is worth, let me share my story with curcumin. I had a recurrence > of low grade lymphoma (stage 4), with a 7 in. mesenteric tumor mass. A > first chemo regime took it down by 1/3. After a lot of internet research, > I started on the following heavy dose curcumin regime, followed two weeks > later by 1/2 dose fludarabine. After one month the tumor mass had been > reduced to scar tissue, as shown by follow-up cat scans and biopsies. Good stuff, fludarabine, innit? Steph, I'm pretty sure it was mostly the curcumin that did the trick, as I am going to post in the near future. It appears from yr email address that you are on Vancouver Island. I am in Victoria. Small world. Slbert >> For what is worth, let me share my story with curcumin. I had a >> recurrence [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Good stuff, fludarabine, innit? SignatureUsing Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > Steph, > > I'm pretty sure it was mostly the curcumin that did the trick You missed Steph's point > > "Albert Hurd" <ahurd@shaw.ca> wrote in message > >>. I had a recurrence [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >> > > Good stuff, fludarabine, innit? and did not reply to Peter's question. J >> Steph, >> >> I'm pretty sure it was mostly the curcumin that did the trick > > You missed Steph's point there are none so blind as those that will not see MIKE Is Irnotecan available in Canada and is it useful for sclc? If available what is the treatment procedure?Is radiation the only treatement for sclc in the brain? Betty is still planning on an 18 day cruise beginning April 17th. She is having difficulty walking and concentrating. Reading some posts from sclc support, some people said that this is an effect from chemo and radiation.It was not my experience with radiation but I never had chemo.I think that she is getting worse as far as forgetfullness goes.We go for an xray on her back on Fri but I think this is a waste of time. Gordo > Is Irnotecan available in Canada and is it useful for sclc? As far as I'm aware, it is used for colorectal cancer only (here) > If available what is the treatment procedure?Is radiation the only > treatement for sclc in the brain? That or rarely surgery > Betty is still planning on an 18 day cruise beginning April 17th. She > is having difficulty walking and concentrating. Reading some posts [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > of time. > Gordo > She is having difficulty walking and concentrating. A month ago I completed another 3 month chemo course of irinotecan (irnotecan sp?), 2 days every 14 on a portable pump. Concentration went out the window. I find myself doing 6 things at once and don't ask me to make a decision ;) I'm unable to drive safely. Peripheral neuropathy (sp?) was minimal this time but I still tend to drop things. My strength/stamina became low. Very few in my group with similar treatment have similar side effects - everyone is different. On the bright side - recovery after chemo is good but can take time. > I think that she is getting worse as far as forgetfullness goes. I'm told, as before, that I've become absent-minded and am forgetting things. I guess this is part of the concentration thingy again. > We go for an xray on her back on Fri I wish you good news with that. Alf >> She is having difficulty walking and concentrating. > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >Alf Thanks for the encouragement Alf.Betty was not on irinotecan and I had heard about good things from tests in Japan . I was wondering if it was an option in Canada for sclc but apparantly not. Gordo > Is Irnotecan available in Canada and is it useful for sclc? > If available what is the treatment procedure?Is radiation the only [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > of time. > Gordo Hello gordo, I was thinking of you and Betty while I was offline and wondering how things were going. Has Betty back pain? I had a heck of a time with back pain for 2 weeks down here..just the pain alone can cause "brain fog" Best wishes tomorrow, hopefully they don't find more bad news. It's good to see that the travel plans are still in place, Keep in touch Many hugs to you and Betty, J >> Is Irnotecan available in Canada and is it useful for sclc? >> If available what is the treatment procedure?Is radiation the only [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Many hugs to you and Betty, >J Thanks for the hugs.The back pain has gone for now and I am not worried about the xray. Just a guess but I think that Drs. have a tought time with back pain.Years ago she had back problems and was prescribed the book the "Back Doctor" and it was really worthwhile medicine at the time.At her last visit with the Onc. I had asked about the cancer going to the brain and we were assured that she had a better chance of getting run over. The brain fog though has me worried but it does not worry Betty. Gordo > >> Is Irnotecan available in Canada and is it useful for sclc? > >> If available what is the treatment procedure?Is radiation the only [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > better chance of getting run over. The brain fog though has me worried > but it does not worry Betty. Hi Gordo, I think I read here or the breast cancer newsgroup, that brain fog is worse with chemo combined with radiation, but she didn't have radiation to her brain. things being things, sometimes aging factors kick in..hardening of the arteries? Or the cancer worsening? (metabolic changes) It's good to read that the onc is less concerned about brain mets. Is it that you have to watch everything she's doing? or you miss the "old Betty"? I sure hope it starts to clear soon. Sending hugs to you and Betty, J >> >> Is Irnotecan available in Canada and is it useful for sclc? >> >> If available what is the treatment procedure?Is radiation the only [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >Sending hugs to you and Betty, >J The old Betty is still there but I keep her away from the stove as best I can.I try to be awake when she gets up at night to see that she doesn't take any pills that I don't know about. In the sclc support group there was quite bit of discussion about brain fog and I printed out one persons experience to show Betty that she should not worry herself about it but of course I am worried, Gordo > The old Betty is still there but I keep her away from the stove as > best I can.I try to be awake when she gets up at night to see that she > doesn't take any pills that I don't know about. In the sclc support > group there was quite bit of discussion about brain fog and I printed > out one persons experience to show Betty that she should not worry > herself about it but of course I am worried, Hello Gordo, there's got to be more to this. I was just looking up Loki's posts. He had chemo, on and off, for 2 or 3 years. He was sharp as a tack (at least when not on chemo) when I knew him, even up to close to the end (he died suddenly of a brain bleed). Differences?: The types of chemo The was 49, Betty's older. What do they say on the SCLC list (is that ACOR?) That it eventually improves? Or tips to help you with the situation? Must be difficult. This is what Jeff (who is some type of doctor) said to someone else on sci.med "People who have cancer often have bleeding or clotting problems. These could have cause a massive stroke or brain hemmorhage or heart attack. The lung cancer could have weakened blood vessels in the chest or elsewhere, cause massive bleeding." <end quote> Have they scanned her brain in any fashion? Is she on any medications which might account for that? If so, which? Has she been checked for VitB12 deficiency. I know I sound like a broken record, but it can creep up in the older population..and cause severe effects http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000574.htm The stomach somehow loses its ability to absorb B vitamins and esp Vit B12 and taking supplements does not work, because those neither get absorbed. Sub Q injections of B12 for 10 weeks boosts the levels (if low), then some have to have an injection every month for the duration of their lives. Something to ask about? The other thought is that she's not getting good quality sleep. There's a difference between sleeping a lot but not properly. Is there a place there Gordo, for overnight sleep testing, where they check breathing function, heart function and oxygen sats during sleep. An improvement might be using oxygen or CPAP. J Dear Albert, Thank you for sharing what appeared to work for you. My mind is always open to new ideas and hope for future cancer patients. I printed up your information and will share it with my many family members with various sorts of cancer. We will follow the research curently being done. As a nurse, I would never rely completely on untried alternative supplements and treatments ALONE. As YOU DID, my family all heeded what is currently recommended. As we all know, these methods are failing many cancer patients, so I keep my mind open for anything that might help my family. Thank you again for sharing and trying to help others. eveline |
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