Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Cancer / March 2005
Curcumin and cancer
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Albert Hurd - 13 Mar 2005 22:28 GMT For what is worth, let me share my story with curcumin. I had a recurrence of low grade lymphoma (stage 4), with a 7 in. mesenteric tumor mass. A first chemo regime took it down by 1/3. After a lot of internet research, I started on the following heavy dose curcumin regime, followed two weeks later by 1/2 dose fludarabine. After one month the tumor mass had been reduced to scar tissue, as shown by follow-up cat scans and biopsies.
CURCUMIN REGIME 4(or 5 to be aggressive) 500 mg caps curcumin + 5 mg bioperine(to boost absorption), 4 times a day. You can get Bioperine (and the curcumin as well if you need to) from vitaminlife.com on internet or at 866-998-8855. It comes in 10 mg tablets which you break in half. Do not take more than 20 mg/day. You can also get curcumin with the 5 mg. bioperine added from a vitamin shop, so take one of those and the rest straight curcumin caps.
You might want to take it with something on your stomach. The cottage cheese and flax oil (see below) works well in this regard if not taken at meal time.
I also took mega vitamins a la Abram Hoffer, as outlined in "Beating Cancer with Nutrition" by Quillen, splitting dose into 3 or 4 and taking along with curcumin. Each dose (3 times a day) was: 400 IU Vitamin E 20,000 IU vitamin A 25000 IU BetaCareAll(Natural Factors 50 mg high potency Vitamin B complex 200 mcg selenium 1 tablespoon powdered Vitamin C(slowly build up to this dose over a few weeks) 2X1000 mg salmon and fish oils One other protocol is flax oil and cottage cheese (Johanna Budwig-check Google): 2 tablespoons in 1/4 cup cottage cheese, 3 times a day.
You should also try to go vegetarian as much as possible, with lots of fresh fruit and raw veggies like cauliflower and cabbage (read Quillen). Green tea with red clover as often as possible is also very good.
The only caution I know with curcumin is that bleeders have to be careful, as my wife discovered because curcumin is a blood thinner. This can be mitigated or stopped entirely by taking coenzyme Q-10 along with the curcumin.
One thing you will have to decide for yourself is whether to follow this protocol along with chemo or radiation. I did because the Quillin book said that it actually enhanced the chemo and my onc was tolerant of me, but most oncs get upset. A possible alternative is to stop the protocol for 2-3 days on either side of chemo since I understand that the chemo is only active in killing cancer cells for a short time, but this might not be entirely relevant since the antioxidant effects might persist for a longer time. Read Quillen on this.
I am pretty sure it was mostly the curcumin which caused the tumor shrinkage. Lots of research showing curcumin is effective on many cancers.
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Peter Moran - 14 Mar 2005 01:07 GMT > For what is worth, let me share my story with curcumin. I had a recurrence > of low grade [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > shrinkage. Lots of > research showing curcumin is effective on many cancers. There is a lot of evidence for anti-cancer effects of curcumin in the test tube and in animal studies, and it is now undergoing phase 1 and phase 11 trials. Understanding that cancer sufferers cannot always wait for the results of such trials, curcumin seems a simple and safe complementary treatment (definitely not instead of known active treatments) for them to try. Regrettably numerous agents that seemed very promising in vitro and in animal cancers often don't work in human cancer. The fiasco of angiogenesis inhibitors is a recent case in point.
May I plead for a better quality of testimonial, even from cancer sufferers who are "pretty sure" they know what worked for them ? A good testimonial or case report includes all the information that the reader might want in order to judge for themselves the probabilities. It might even offer to supply further documentation or sources to be contacted for confirmatory evidence. Cancer is too serious a condition for too many people (including myself) for claims of cure to hang upon the quality of testimonial and third hand scuttlebutt that seems to have become accepted as the norm within "alternative" medicine. Many testimonials are absolute junk, laughably so in a less serious field..
Albert's is actually better than most, but, Albert, you have not indicated WHEN the main treatments of interest were given and when the responses were noted. This is important in judging whether the chemotherapy could have been entirely responsible for the effects noted. We know that it worked at least once for you. What is the time frame of the above events?
Peter Moran
J - 14 Mar 2005 05:19 GMT Curcurmin induce apoptosis in human cervix epithelioid carcinoma cells (HeLa) through activation of caspase- 3 and P53
C-S Yu PhDa, JK-S Chan Bsb, J-G Chung PhDc
a", Center of General Education, cDepartment of Microbiology; China Medical University, Taichung 404, Taiwan, bDepartment of Biochemistry, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, BC, Canada "
Curcurmin has been demonstrated in rats to prevent azoxymethane-induced aberrant crypt foci, putative precursor lesions in the colon and in mice to prevent tumorigenesis induced by azoxymethane in the colon and by N-ethyl N-nitrosoguanidine in the duodenum and forestomach. The mechanism of curcurmin affect on human cervix cancer cells was not addressed. Therefore, curcurmin was used to study the biological activities on the human cervix epithelioid carcinoma cells (HeLa). On MTT assay, curcurmin showed obvious cytotoxic effects and inhibit the proliferation of HeLA cells. The cytotoxic effects of curcurmin was accompanied by the dose- and time-dependent appearance of characteristics of apoptosis including DNA fragmentation (gel electrophoresis) and sub-G1 ratio (flow cytometric assay). The HeLA cells cotreated with curcurmin caused a rapid transient induction of caspase-3 activity, but not caspase-1 activity. We also found out that cleavage of poly(ADP-ribose) polymerase (PARP) and decrease of pro-caspase-3 protein were detected in curcurmin-treated HeLa cells. Increased the pro-apoptotic protein (bax), cytochrome C release and caspases-9 and 3 activity and decreased anti-apoptotic protein (Mcl-1) were detected in HeLa cells after cotreated with curcurmin. We also used PCR and multiplex PCR methods to examine the caspase 3 gene expression and the results show that curcurmin induced caspase-3 gene expression.
J - 14 Mar 2005 09:50 GMT burglar of turd wrote:
> Curcurmin has been demonstrated in rats to prevent > > <snipped> quit impersonating my screen name, "Burt" ! J ------- Original Message -------- Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news.glorb.com!postnews.google.com!z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
From: "J" <burglar_of_turds@yahoo.com> Newsgroups: alt.support.cancer Subject: Re: Curcumin and cancer Date: 13 Mar 2005 20:19:35 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 32 Message-ID: <1110773975.607099.145210@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> References: <opsnlh40fb1s8xpb@albert><4234d5b9$0$264$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.167.130.17
J - 14 Mar 2005 18:44 GMT WHAT are you talking about? Nobody is impersonating noone. Our email addresses are totally different!! Sheeesh.
J - 14 Mar 2005 19:00 GMT > WHAT are you talking about? Nobody is impersonating noone. Our email > addresses are totally different!! Sheeesh. your header has brisbane, australia in it..
Have I got your "number" yet? http://www.sesbrisbane.org/
J
J - 14 Mar 2005 19:11 GMT burglar of turd wrote:
> WHAT are you talking about? Nobody is impersonating noone. Our email > addresses are totally different!! Many people don't look at email address. They read the message, they see the screen name. Stop impersonating me. Use your own damned name. Turd, burglar...marty...whatever... J
J - 14 Mar 2005 21:51 GMT Dude.. chill out man.....
J - 14 Mar 2005 22:15 GMT burglar.turd wrote:
> Dude.. chill out man..... Provide your liver biopsy report to Peter Moran. His email address is not munged. Also include copies of all your scan reports. J
Albert Hurd - 15 Mar 2005 09:30 GMT Peter,
Sorry I didn't provide details. The lymphoma first occurred in 1994, and recurred in the fall of 2001. First a (slightly edited) transcript of a consultation with Dr. R. Klasa of the BC Cancer Agency in Vancouver on Feb. 27, 2002. My comments are in parentheses.
ONCOLOGY CONSULTATION Mr. Hurd is a 70-year-old man with a history of transformed MALT lymphoma treated with subtotal gastrectomy and chemotherapy in 1994 and complicated by anthracycline-induced cardiomyopathy. He was seen in consultation on February 27, 2002 for an opinion regarding management of recurrent lymphoma. Mr. Hurd presented with dyspeptic symptoms in 1994. An upper Gl endoscopy with biopsy showed MALT lymphoma in the antrum of the stomach, associated with Helicobacter pylori infection. He was treated with triple antibiotic therapy; however, symptoms progressed over six weeks and the mass grew on imaging (doubled in size). He developed B symptoms. He underwent subtotal gastrectomy and pathology was remarkable for probable diffuse large cell lymphoma with negative margins in addition to areas of MALT. This pathology was reviewed and was felt to be in keeping with small non-cleaved, non-Burkitt's lymphoma. Staging imaging is not available, however, bone marrow biopsy pre-chemotherapy was negative. Following chemotherapy (CHOP) Mr. Hurd improved significantly. He was felt to be in complete remission. Although he has never returned to his previous weight, he did gain weight in the interim. Although he was asymptomatic, Mr. Hurd read about possible cardiomyopathy and requested an assessment. A MUGA scan showed an ejection fraction of 27%. He was seen by a cardiologist who prescribed Altace. He apparently had a repeat echocardiogram in the spring of 2001, which showed an ejection fraction of 31%. He is not limited by cardiomyopathy. (This was asymptotic congestive heart failure brought on by the adriamycin in CHOP and discovered in a routine heart examination in 1997) In the summer of 2001 Mr. Hurd noticed a hard mass on the left side of his abdomen. In addition, he developed drenching night sweats, and noticed pruritis. He did not lose weight, his appetite was stable, and his energy was unremarkable. An upper Gl endoscopy with biopsy was normal and blood work was normal. Fine needle aspiration which took place in the fall of 2001 was nondiagnostic, and bone marrow biopsy on October 11, 2001 was negative for lymphoma. On January 23, 2002, he underwent a biopsy by laparotomy. Pathology was remarkable for diffuse small cleaved cell lymphoma, CD10 positive, CD20 positive, consistent with intermediate grade lymphoma. A chest x-ray done on February 4, 2002 was normal. A CT scan of the abdomen done on September 18, 2001 showed large masses. An ultrasound of the abdomen done on February 11, 2002 showed a mass measuring "9 x 10 x 33 mm".(This measurememt was clearly a typing error, hence the quotes--see measurements below). Mr. Hurd's biopsy was complicated by a postoperative abscess requiring several trips to the Emergency Room, treatment with antibiotics and surgical drainage. . Mr. Hurd currently spends more than half the day in bed. He is limited by pain on sitting up. He has lost approximately 10 Ib since surgery, and his wife notices that he is vague. They have not noticed any focal areas of weakness or sensory change. On examination, this was a cachectic man who looked unwell. Pulse rate was 70 with the occasional skipped beat. Blood pressure was 110/60 in the right arm in the supine position. Chest examination was remarkable for bibasilar crackles. Abdominal examination revealed decreased bowel sounds in a hard abdomen, which was nontender to palpation. Liver span was 10 cm with the edge at the costal border. There was no splenomegaly. There was a midline laparotomy incision. Abdominal examination was most remarkable for a very large mass extending from the left flank across the midline and extending from the umbilicus to under the xiphisternum. Measurements were at least 20 cm in each direction. There was no peripheral lymphadenopathy at any site. Chest x-ray from February 4, 2002 was normal. The most recent abdominal imaging is an ultrasound from February 11th which shows a large mass. Bone marrow biopsy done in November 2001 was negative for lymphoma.
ASSESSMENT This is a 70-year-old man with a history of transformed MALT lymphoma, the high-grade component being either diffuse large cell lymphoma or small non-cleaved, non-Burkitt's lymphoma. He was treated in 1994 with subtotal gastrectomy followed by eight cycles of CHOP chemotherapy with complete remission. Treatment was complicated by anthracycline-included cardiomyopathy. He presents with a recurrence of lymphoma with a large abdominal mass and ECOG performance status of 3 or greater. Mr. Hurd's lymphoma recurrence is not a curable condition. However, he would likely benefit symptomatically from a course of palliative chemotherapy. We are in agreement with Dr. Wass that a trial of alkylating agent-based chemotherapy would be a reasonable first-line approach. Because of the seven-year interval between requirements for treatment, his lymphoma may well be sensitive to alkylating agents. Should he not respond to an alkylating agent, he may benefit from a course of palliative Etoposide. The mass is too large for palliative radiotherapy, which would likely result in significant morbidity, particularly in a gentleman who has had a previous subtotal gastrectomy. Finally, he may if these treatment approaches fail possibly benefit from treatment with antibodies; however, this would not be our favored first-line approach due to the bulk of the mass. END OF TRANSCRIPT
Following the consultation I was put on a 6 month chemo regime of CVP. The abcess mentioned in the transcript caused the stiches in the 1994 surgery to pop leaving me with a very large hernia which was not operated on at the time since I was on chemo. The chemo shrunk the tumor by a little less than 1/2. During the chemo (which ended in June, 2002) I developed a persistent cough which developed because the lymphoma had blocked the thorasic duct and fluid was building up in the right lung. My onc decided to start me on fludarabine in the fall after an attempt to solve the lung problem. I went into hospital in Aug for 8 days while fluid was continuously drained from the lung (a liter a day) and I was on a very restricted diet. The lung specialist was sure the fluid problem was insolvable unless the cancer was checked but discharged me anyway since the diet had somewhat reduced the fluid. My GP communicated to my wife that I probably wouldn't recover. I came out of the hospital minus another 15 pounds and barely able to shuffle around the house, sleeping most of the time. However my extensive research on alternative approaches to cancer settled me on trying the curcumin which I began on Sept.2, 2002. Tumor mass was now 11x4.5 cm. The fludarabine was begun at half dose on Sept. 17. On Oct. 11 my onc was amazed to find she could no longer feel the large abdominal mass, only a small mass. Also by this time the fluid buildup in the lung had stopped indicating the thorasic duct was no longer blocked by lymphoma. Another fact was that my energy was increasing remarkably, which the onc said was very unusual on fludarabine which usually caused fatigue. This was after 41 days of curcumin and 24 days of 1/2 dose fludarabine. The regime was continued for 6 rounds until Feb. 7/03. Tumor now at 5x3 cm, so down about half. It was decided to try 3 more rounds of fludarabine ending on May 14/03, at which time a cat scan showed no change in size of abdominal mass. The onc was not sure whether tumor was active or we had arrived at scar tissue, but decided to stop the chemo. I stayed on the curcumin as time went on. In late Sept./03 I had abdominal surgery to repair the hernia and the surgeon took a very good look at the mesentery. Two biopsies showed no active cancer but considerable scar tissue. My read on this sequence of events is that the shrinkage of the tumor occurred almost entirely between Sept. 2 and Oct. 11/02, when the onc noticed the remarkable shrinkage, leaving approximately a 5x3 cm scar tissue mass which was seen in the two later cat scans. If this read is correct, then was it mostly the curcumin for 41 days or the fludarabine at 1/2 dose for 24 days or a happy synthesis. I am reinforced in the curcumin hypothesis because a year ago I developed lymph node swelling in my neck suspiciously like lymphoma, went back on the heavy dose curcumin and it disappeared in about a week. At any rate, after being described as incurable, I am still cancer free and my onc says that with any luck I am cured. This is probably premature, given the nature of lymphoma, and I take each day at a time. A final few remarks. I tried many alternative approaches to cancer and did a lot of research, being a retired university prof of math. I agree that many testimonials are lacking, but you can find a lot more info if you dig. My philosophy was that I would try about anything as long as I was convinced it wouldn't harm me, and not wait for the double blind tests. The amazing thing about curcumin was that it was in a completely different league from most of the other alternatives as far as research was concerned. That being said, I have to remember talking to a lymphoma survivor who had after much chemo and radiation was given 3 weeks to live. She went on the grape cure (Johanna Brandt) and was completely cured in a year. A few months later I heard two cancer researches say they had discovered in the skins of grapes one of the most powerful cancer agents they had ever tested on mice. Go figure. I understand the grape cure has a great following in Europe. If the curcumin is to be effective in cancer I think it should be done in the heavy doses I used and, most importantly, accompanied by bioperine, which increases the absorption by 10-15 times. One research article I read said that curcumin would be an excellent chemo but unfortunately was not well absorbed in the gut. The author hadn't heard of bioperine.
Albert
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J - 15 Mar 2005 14:14 GMT > ONCOLOGY CONSULTATION > Mr. Hurd is a 70-year-old man with a history of transformed MALT > lymphoma treated with subtotal gastrectomy and chemotherapy in 1994 and > complicated by anthracycline-induced cardiomyopathy. He was seen in > consultation on February 27, 2002 for an opinion regarding management of > recurrent lymphoma. <snip>
> A final few remarks. I tried many alternative approaches to > cancer and did a lot of research, being a retired university prof of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > completely different league from most of the other alternatives as far as > research was concerned. <snip grape regimen testimonial - we here know the difficulties with prognosticating - even between one onocologist to the other/same cancer>
> If the curcumin is to be effective in cancer I think it should > be done in the heavy doses I used and, most importantly, accompanied by > bioperine, which increases the absorption by 10-15 times. One research > article I read said that curcumin would be an excellent chemo but > unfortunately was not well absorbed in the gut. The author hadn't heard of > bioperine. Some comments to you and (but mostly) to the readers of alt.support.cancer. We have heard thousands of claim/products over the years.
How do you know the swollen neck lymph node wasn't a sequelae of your lung problem and/or viral (which would have cleared up on its own) ?
Reminding the readers that your type of cancer(s) have a proven track record with chemo. Otherwise, the following quotes from Steph stand. "three cancers with a proven track record with chemo (Hodkin's lymphoma, NHL and testis germ cell). Of the 22 most common adult cancers (excluding non-melanoma skin cancer), there is evidence of a survival benefit from chemotherapy in only 9%." "For every 100 cancers cured, surgery cures about 55, radiotherapy about 40, and chemotherapy about 5. - DaVita)
Many cancer patients only have two good shots at it; surgery and/or radiation therapy.
So this thread was started in conjunction with lymphoma and radiation therapy. I note that your post was about chemo and such a regimen.
I cannot imagine how a radiation therapist would plan the dosing of radiation therapy for the additional "regimen" that you added, without having some type of guideline, (such as clinical trials), in order to not result in less effective rad dosage or radiation toxicity. Seems to me same holds true for chemo and such a regimen. Would appreciate Steph's comment on this.
We sometimes have a hard enough time convincing people to overcome their fears about radiation therapy, without there being stories going around about radiation toxicity or inefficacy (and not being given the facts as to what other "regimens" they might have been trying at the same time). And I want the best there is for each person/type/stage of cancer.
The tendency is to blame (and/or sue) the person who can be located (stable place of business)...and is viewed to have money and/or liability insurance..which is....the doctor (not the grapeseed or curcumin seller).
I think it's important to prove that a single regimen works (or disprove) and assess for toxicity through clinical trials; singly, in any combo of (various) chemos and/or radiation therapy;
I wonder how much time and cost, those 1,000's of claims would take in clinical trials. <rhetorical> J .
Albert Hurd - 15 Mar 2005 16:43 GMT Sorry I wasn't aware of the guidelines for the newsgroup. I came to the post from Karen in a search involving curcumin, and first posted to her, then thought my comments might help generally. I really don't want to engage in argument about proof and leave that to you My philosophy, as I thought I made clear, was to try just about everything, as long as I felt it wouldn't harm me. I do believe that curcumin may complement radiation and chemo. If someone feels they needs absolute proof that something will work before they try it, thats their call.
>> ONCOLOGY CONSULTATION >> Mr. Hurd is a 70-year-old man with a history of transformed MALT [quoted text clipped - 93 lines] > J > .
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J - 15 Mar 2005 20:02 GMT > Sorry I wasn't aware of the guidelines for the newsgroup. Albert, Who said anything about guidelines for this newsgroup? But while you bring up the subject, "top-posting" is writing and reading backwards. Post your reply at the bottom of a person's reply or intersperse your comments between the other's and <snip>/delete the extra text
> I came to the > post from Karen in a search involving curcumin, and first posted to her, Yes, you did on another thread.
> then thought my comments might help generally. Yes, you started a new thread.
> I really don't want to > engage in argument about proof and leave that to you Newsgrouups are about discussion. One person posts a subject (with their opinion/view/point/argument). Others reply, ask questions, present their view/point/argument. You reply to them, they reply to you. That's how newsgroup (and real life) discussions go. Original person replies, answer question, reply point by point, delete what they don't want to reply to.
Then their signature is just below it.
> <snip>Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ I was presenting my points and asked you a question... How about going back to my reply and replying? J
Albert Hurd - 15 Mar 2005 23:10 GMT Sorry that my way of answering posts annoys you but I won't be dictated to by you or anyone else. I read thru your rant and found no question you asked. At any rate I don't want to get into a debate with you about alternatives and proofs. I survived stage four cancer twice and that is good enough for me. I wish you well in your search for absolute proof, and hope that you, if you have cancer, are never told that conventional treatment has reached an end and you are with certainty going to die. This is my last post to you. A.
>> Sorry I wasn't aware of the guidelines for the newsgroup. > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > How about going back to my reply and replying? > J
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Peter Moran - 15 Mar 2005 21:26 GMT > Peter, > > Sorry I didn't provide details. The lymphoma first occurred in 1994, and > recurred in the fall of 2001. First a (slightly edited) transcript of a > consultation with Dr. R. Klasa of the BC Cancer Agency in Vancouver on > Feb. 27, 2002. My comments are in parentheses. Thanks for the further information, which I have snipped for brevity. The objective and measurable component in the testimonial is the size of the mass (hydrothorax may refill very slowly and energy levels are too subjective to take notice of). We do not have clear objective evidence that the mass reduced by half at the point you wish us to focus upon, only the palpation of the oncologist, which can vary with many factors. We don't have ultrasound or other imaging at this point in the story. We also are required to assume that the three and a half weeks of fludarabine could not have produced any effects noted.
" If this read is correct, then was it mostly the curcumin for 41 days or the fludarabine at 1/2 dose for 24 days or a happy synthesis. "
I agree with the three possibilities. It counts as a "possible" for curcumin, without proving a treatment effect. Fortunately curcumin is being properly evaluated under conditions where there will be no room for doubt.
I am glad you are doing so well, and I value your objectivity.
Peter Moran
> ONCOLOGY CONSULTATION > Mr. Hurd is a 70-year-old man with a history of transformed MALT [quoted text clipped - 157 lines] > > Albert Peter Moran - 15 Mar 2005 21:51 GMT > Peter, > That being said, I have to remember talking to a lymphoma survivor who [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > tested on mice. Go figure. I understand the grape cure has a great > following in Europe. This is what I mean by scuttlebutt. We are denied any possibility of finding out what really happened with this patient and what they were actually told. If the grape cure worked with a case of otherwise incurable cancer, that is big news, --- why do we only get to hear about it this way?
Peter Moran.
Albert Hurd - 15 Mar 2005 22:28 GMT Probably because most of the people who report these kinds of cures don't have the resources to do clinical trials and conventional medecine will in most cases not be interested for its own reasons which I won't go into (curcumin is a welcome exception). The person I reported on would have died if she hadn't tried alternatives. I understand you have cancer as well. I wish you well in waiting for absolute proof before you try any alternatives, and pray you never reach the point that you are given 3 weeks to live by your onc.
>> Peter, >> That being said, I have to remember talking to a lymphoma survivor who [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Peter Moran.
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J - 15 Mar 2005 23:04 GMT > Probably because most of the people who report these kinds of cures don't > have the resources to do clinical trials and conventional medecine will in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > alternatives, and pray you never reach the point that you are given 3 > weeks to live by your onc. Peter's a doctor who has spent years researching alternative "treatments".
Socks was told "3 months". As of yesterday, it's been 4 years.. As I told you before there's problems prognosticating..
The main cancer convention clinical trial website http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ There's 2 clinical trials on curcumin... 1. Recruiting Curcumin in Patients with Mild to Moderate Alzheimer's Disease
2. Recruiting Trial of Curcumin in Advanced Pancreatic Cancer Conditions: Pancreatic Neoplasms; Adenocarcinoma
If Peter knows of more through NCCAM Complementary and Alternaitve, (or elsewhere), I await his info. They do cliniical trials http://nccam.nih.gov/
J
Peter Moran - 16 Mar 2005 00:37 GMT > Probably because most of the people who report these kinds of cures don't > have the resources to do clinical trials and conventional medecine will in > most cases not be interested for its own reasons which I won't go into > (curcumin is a welcome exception). It is not difficult to show an truly effective cancer agent is effective. It just needs those promoting it to perform the simple phase 11 studies of the type that are all that conventional medicine does with new agents. You take a small series of patients with proven measurable cancer and see what happens to them. Cancer is predictable enough in its behaviour for each patients to serve as their own control, within limits
Anyone with sufficient knowledge of cancer to be a reliable observer should be able to perform this kind of study, and to continue to produce favourable cases regularly. If they can't then there is little reason to trust them in the first place.
It is part of the scam/delusion/self-serving conspiracy to pretend that controlled trials, even sophisticated placebo-controlled ones, are the only possible next step up from testimonial of the usual appalling quality.
The true problem for the "alternative" promoter and salesmen is that they cannot produce good quality anecdotal material in sufficient quantity to generate medical interest. Hundreds of thousands of patients with proven measurable cancer are using alternative treatments every year, and yet credible well-documented testimonials are as rare as hen's teeth. The appalling quality of most testimonial further suggests that the promoters of those treatments don't know enough about cancer to have any idea what their treatments do.
Remember also that cancer-treating doctors have considerable experience of our patients using whatever "alternaitve" is fashionable at any time and there is a lot of negative experience from that to be overcome..
Peter Moran
Albert Hurd - 16 Mar 2005 17:14 GMT >> Probably because most of the people who report these kinds of cures >> don't [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > what > happens to them. Very interesting. Could you give me a link or two where the protocol for phase 11 trials is laid out. Thanks.
A.
Peter Moran - 16 Mar 2005 21:59 GMT >>> Probably because most of the people who report these kinds of cures >>> don't [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Very interesting. Could you give me a link or two where the protocol for > phase 11 trials is laid out. Thanks. Protocols may vary, but the basic study can be described in a few words. You decide that new patients who have biopsy-proven measurable cancer, and who are receiving no other treatment, will be treated with the agent is question (after proper informed consent), and the patient is then followed up for, say six months. Most cancers will show signs of progression by then without treatment, so that the patients are acting as their own controls. Any agent as effective as is usually claimed within "alternative" lore, or as is implied by the promotional testimonials should be producing at least a few dramatic remissions within as few as twenty or thirty patients. (Phase 1 studies do something similar but with varying dosages to determine treatment tolerance)
Such studies cannot demonstrate lesser treatment effects such as prolongation of survival from cancer, since lengths of survival so variable and unpredictable. But no one should make such claims in the first place without serious clinical studies.
In the course of a recent brief exchange of mail over a few weeks with Howard Strauss of the Gerson clinic he produced four patients who would have been suitable for such a study under their immediate care. So the material is available, and doctors would cooperate with the evaluation if they knew that serious investigation was underway . He promised that they will do such a study but I am not holding my breath. The true reason for not embarking on such simple, obvious research are the risks involved.
Peter Moran
> A. Albert Hurd - 16 Mar 2005 23:16 GMT >>>> Probably because most of the people who report these kinds of cures >>>> don't [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > and > who are receiving no other treatment, I think this one requirement is possibly the drawback for many. Over the years I have been ingesting many substances including chemo and alternatives, and tried meditation, etc. I rarely noticed dramatic effects but my onc reported that my blood work stood up remarkably well throughout, possibly due to the antioxidant vitamins I was doing (who knows but that the meditation might have helped). I was mostly concerned about keeping my body and immune system very healthy to counter possible effects of the chemo down the road. Now if I am ever declared terminal, as the person I described was, I assure you I would similtaneously take anything and everything that I thought would work, and to hell with trying to get proof that any one of these substances by itself was what did the trick, and perhaps you might do likewise in a similar situation. I laud your efforts on behalf af alternate and complementary treatments in the hope that the truly effective substances will be identified and others can benefit, but hope you can understand that proof of efficacy of any one substance if not necessarily uppermost in the mind of someone afflicted with cancer.
> will be treated with the agent is > question (after proper informed consent), and the patient is then [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > >> A.
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Peter Moran - 17 Mar 2005 04:30 GMT >>>>> Probably because most of the people who report these kinds of cures >>>>> don't [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > throughout, possibly due to the antioxidant vitamins I was doing (who > knows but that the meditation might have helped). I should have specified no "recent change if treatment". You are right that most of those who use alternaitves will use multiple agents. Those on which the cancer has progressed can obviously be discounted
>I was mostly concerned about keeping my body and immune system very >healthy to counter possible effects of the chemo down the road. Now if I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >you can understand that proof of efficacy of any one substance if not >necessarily uppermost in the mind of someone afflicted with cancer. I agree entirely. What the cancer patient has to learn to do is to exert other absolute rights. To proper informed consent. To be able to ask "how many patients like me have you treated and what happened to them" and expect a straight answer.
In short, to "view the books" of those claiming to have a cancer cure or selling one.
Peter Moran
>> will be treated with the agent is >> question (after proper informed consent), and the patient is then [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >> >>> A. J - 18 Mar 2005 19:45 GMT > In the course of a recent brief exchange of mail over a few weeks with > Howard Strauss of the Gerson clinic he produced four patients who would have > been suitable for such a study under their immediate care. Speaking of mail exchanges, Peter. Have you ever had any with Martin? (Marty in Oz) He's made claims here for years about essiac. NSCLC, one lung removed, claimed he had liver mets that reduced significantly with Essiac. And attributes his survival <5 years to Essiac. I could send you a link - can't post it because it shows his address.. No liver biopsy report, nor the original CT-scan. It would be nice to settle this once and for all and if there's missing information, since he's in the same country as you, I see no reason he could not get the missing information (somehow) to you, even if you both meet at a pub to do so. Or if it's couriered to you. Thanks, J
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