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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Cancer / March 2005

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Curcumin and cancer

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Albert Hurd - 13 Mar 2005 22:28 GMT
For what is worth, let me share my story with curcumin. I had a recurrence  
of low grade
lymphoma (stage 4), with a 7 in. mesenteric tumor mass. A first chemo  
regime took it down
by 1/3. After a lot of internet research, I started on the following heavy  
dose curcumin
regime, followed two weeks later by 1/2 dose fludarabine. After one month  
the tumor mass
had been reduced to scar tissue, as shown by follow-up cat scans and  
biopsies.

                     CURCUMIN REGIME
4(or 5 to be aggressive) 500 mg caps curcumin + 5 mg bioperine(to boost  
absorption), 4
times a day.
You can get Bioperine (and the curcumin as well if you need to) from  
vitaminlife.com on
internet or at 866-998-8855.  It comes in 10 mg tablets which you break in  
half. Do not
take more than 20 mg/day. You can also get curcumin with the 5 mg.  
bioperine added from a
vitamin shop, so take one of those and the rest straight curcumin caps.

You might want to take it with something on your stomach. The cottage  
cheese and flax oil
(see below) works well in this regard if not taken at meal time.

I also took mega vitamins a la Abram Hoffer, as outlined in "Beating  
Cancer with Nutrition"
 by Quillen, splitting dose into 3 or 4 and taking along with curcumin.  
Each dose (3 times
a day) was:
400 IU Vitamin E
20,000 IU vitamin A
25000 IU BetaCareAll(Natural Factors
50 mg high potency Vitamin B complex
200 mcg selenium
1 tablespoon powdered Vitamin C(slowly build up to this dose over a few  
weeks)
2X1000 mg salmon and fish oils
One other protocol is flax oil and cottage cheese (Johanna Budwig-check  
Google): 2
tablespoons in 1/4 cup cottage cheese, 3 times a day.

You should also try to go vegetarian as much as possible, with lots of  
fresh fruit and raw
veggies like cauliflower and cabbage (read Quillen). Green tea with red  
clover as often as
possible is also very good.

The only caution I know with curcumin is that bleeders have to be careful,  
as my wife
discovered because curcumin is a blood thinner. This can be mitigated or  
stopped entirely
by taking coenzyme Q-10 along with the curcumin.

One thing you will have to decide for yourself is whether to follow this  
protocol along
with chemo or radiation. I did because the Quillin book said that it  
actually enhanced the
chemo and my onc was tolerant of me, but most oncs get upset. A possible  
alternative is to
stop the protocol for 2-3 days on either side of chemo since I understand  
that the chemo is
 only active in killing cancer cells for a short time, but this might not  
be entirely
relevant since the antioxidant effects might persist for a longer time.  
Read Quillen on
this.

I am pretty sure it was mostly the curcumin which caused the tumor  
shrinkage. Lots of
research showing curcumin is effective on many cancers.

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Peter Moran - 14 Mar 2005 01:07 GMT
> For what is worth, let me share my story with curcumin. I had a recurrence
> of low grade
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
> shrinkage. Lots of
> research showing curcumin is effective on many cancers.

There is a lot of evidence for anti-cancer effects of curcumin in the test
tube and in animal studies, and it is now undergoing phase 1 and phase 11
trials.    Understanding that cancer sufferers cannot always wait for the
results of such trials, curcumin seems a simple and safe complementary
treatment (definitely not instead of  known active treatments) for them to
try.   Regrettably numerous agents that seemed very promising in vitro and
in animal cancers often don't work in human cancer.   The fiasco of
angiogenesis inhibitors is a recent case in point.

May I plead for a better quality of testimonial, even from cancer sufferers
who are "pretty sure" they know what worked for them ?     A good
testimonial or case report includes all the information  that the reader
might want in order to judge for themselves the probabilities.  It might
even offer to supply further documentation or sources to be contacted for
confirmatory evidence.    Cancer is too serious a condition for too many
people (including myself) for claims of cure to hang upon the quality of
testimonial and  third hand scuttlebutt that seems to have become accepted
as the norm within "alternative" medicine.   Many testimonials are absolute
junk,  laughably so in a less serious field..

Albert's is actually better than most, but,  Albert, you have not indicated
WHEN the main treatments of interest were given and when the responses were
noted.    This is important in judging whether the chemotherapy could have
been entirely responsible for the effects noted.   We know that it worked at
least once for you.  What is the time frame of the above events?

Peter Moran
J - 14 Mar 2005 05:19 GMT
Curcurmin induce apoptosis in human cervix epithelioid carcinoma cells
(HeLa) through activation of caspase- 3 and P53

C-S Yu PhDa, JK-S Chan Bsb, J-G Chung PhDc

a", Center of General Education, cDepartment of Microbiology; China
Medical University, Taichung 404, Taiwan, bDepartment of Biochemistry,
University of British Columbia, Vancouver, BC, Canada "

Curcurmin has been demonstrated in rats to prevent azoxymethane-induced
aberrant crypt foci, putative precursor lesions in the colon and in
mice to prevent tumorigenesis induced by azoxymethane in the colon and
by N-ethyl N-nitrosoguanidine in the duodenum and forestomach. The
mechanism of curcurmin affect on human cervix cancer cells was not
addressed. Therefore, curcurmin was used to study the biological
activities on the human cervix epithelioid carcinoma cells (HeLa). On
MTT assay, curcurmin showed obvious cytotoxic effects and inhibit the
proliferation of HeLA cells. The cytotoxic effects of curcurmin was
accompanied by the dose- and time-dependent appearance of
characteristics of apoptosis including DNA fragmentation (gel
electrophoresis) and sub-G1 ratio (flow cytometric assay). The HeLA
cells cotreated with curcurmin caused a rapid transient induction of
caspase-3 activity, but not caspase-1 activity. We also found out that
cleavage of poly(ADP-ribose) polymerase (PARP) and decrease of
pro-caspase-3 protein were detected in curcurmin-treated HeLa cells.
Increased the pro-apoptotic protein (bax), cytochrome C release and
caspases-9 and 3 activity and decreased anti-apoptotic protein (Mcl-1)
were detected in HeLa cells after cotreated with curcurmin. We also
used PCR and multiplex PCR methods to examine the caspase 3 gene
expression and the results show that curcurmin induced caspase-3 gene
expression.
J - 14 Mar 2005 09:50 GMT
burglar of turd wrote:

> Curcurmin has been demonstrated in rats to prevent
>
> <snipped>

quit impersonating my screen name, "Burt" !
J
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From: "J" <burglar_of_turds@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: alt.support.cancer
Subject: Re: Curcumin and cancer
Date: 13 Mar 2005 20:19:35 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <1110773975.607099.145210@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>
References:
<opsnlh40fb1s8xpb@albert><4234d5b9$0$264$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>

NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.167.130.17
J - 14 Mar 2005 18:44 GMT
WHAT are you talking about?  Nobody is impersonating noone.  Our email
addresses are totally different!!    Sheeesh.
J - 14 Mar 2005 19:00 GMT
> WHAT are you talking about?  Nobody is impersonating noone.  Our email
> addresses are totally different!!    Sheeesh.

your header has brisbane, australia in it..

Have I got your "number" yet?
http://www.sesbrisbane.org/

J
J - 14 Mar 2005 19:11 GMT
burglar of turd wrote:

> WHAT are you talking about?  Nobody is impersonating noone.  Our email
> addresses are totally different!!

Many people don't look at email address.
They read the message, they see the screen name.
Stop impersonating me.
Use your own damned name. Turd, burglar...marty...whatever...
J
J - 14 Mar 2005 21:51 GMT
Dude.. chill out man.....
J - 14 Mar 2005 22:15 GMT
burglar.turd wrote:

> Dude.. chill out man.....

Provide your liver biopsy report to Peter Moran.
His email address is not munged.
Also include copies of all your scan reports.
J
Albert Hurd - 15 Mar 2005 09:30 GMT
Peter,

Sorry I didn't provide details. The lymphoma first occurred in 1994, and  
recurred in the fall of 2001. First a (slightly edited) transcript of a  
consultation with Dr. R. Klasa of the BC Cancer Agency in Vancouver on  
Feb. 27, 2002. My comments are in parentheses.

                        ONCOLOGY CONSULTATION
      Mr. Hurd is a 70-year-old man with a history of transformed MALT  
lymphoma treated with subtotal gastrectomy and chemotherapy in 1994 and  
complicated by anthracycline-induced cardiomyopathy. He was seen in  
consultation on February 27, 2002 for an opinion regarding management of  
recurrent lymphoma.
      Mr. Hurd presented with dyspeptic symptoms in 1994. An upper Gl  
endoscopy with biopsy showed MALT lymphoma in the antrum of the stomach,  
associated with Helicobacter pylori infection. He was treated with triple  
antibiotic therapy; however, symptoms progressed over six weeks and the  
mass grew on imaging (doubled in size). He developed B symptoms. He  
underwent subtotal gastrectomy and pathology was remarkable for probable  
diffuse large cell lymphoma with negative margins in addition to areas of  
MALT. This pathology was reviewed and was felt to be in keeping with small  
non-cleaved, non-Burkitt's lymphoma. Staging imaging is not available,  
however, bone marrow biopsy pre-chemotherapy was negative.
       Following chemotherapy (CHOP) Mr. Hurd improved significantly. He  
was felt to be in complete remission. Although he has never returned to  
his previous weight, he did gain weight in the interim.
       Although he was asymptomatic, Mr. Hurd read about possible  
cardiomyopathy and requested an assessment. A MUGA scan showed an ejection  
fraction of 27%. He was seen by a cardiologist who prescribed Altace. He  
apparently had a repeat echocardiogram in the spring of 2001, which showed  
an ejection fraction of 31%. He is not limited by cardiomyopathy. (This  
was asymptotic congestive heart failure brought on by the adriamycin in  
CHOP and discovered in a routine heart examination in 1997)
       In the summer of 2001 Mr. Hurd noticed a hard mass on the left side  
of his abdomen. In addition, he developed drenching night sweats, and  
noticed pruritis. He did not lose weight, his appetite was stable, and his  
energy was unremarkable. An upper Gl endoscopy with biopsy was normal and  
blood work was normal. Fine needle aspiration which took place in the fall  
of 2001 was nondiagnostic, and bone marrow biopsy on October 11, 2001 was  
negative for lymphoma.
       On January 23, 2002, he underwent a biopsy by laparotomy. Pathology  
was remarkable for diffuse small cleaved cell lymphoma, CD10 positive,  
CD20 positive, consistent with
intermediate grade lymphoma. A chest x-ray done on February 4, 2002 was  
normal.
A CT scan of the abdomen done on September 18, 2001 showed large masses.
An ultrasound of the abdomen done on February 11, 2002 showed a mass  
measuring "9 x
10 x 33 mm".(This measurememt was clearly a typing error, hence the  
quotes--see measurements below).
     Mr. Hurd's biopsy was complicated by a postoperative abscess  
requiring several trips to the Emergency Room, treatment with antibiotics  
and surgical drainage. .
     Mr. Hurd currently spends more than half the day in bed. He is  
limited by pain on sitting up. He has lost approximately 10 Ib since  
surgery, and his wife notices that he is vague. They have not noticed any  
focal areas of weakness or sensory change.
     On examination, this was a cachectic man who looked unwell. Pulse  
rate was 70 with the occasional skipped beat. Blood pressure was 110/60 in  
the right arm in the supine position. Chest examination was remarkable for  
bibasilar crackles.
     Abdominal examination revealed decreased bowel sounds in a hard  
abdomen, which was
nontender to palpation. Liver span was 10 cm with the edge at the costal  
border. There was
no splenomegaly. There was a midline laparotomy incision. Abdominal  
examination was
most remarkable for a very large mass extending from the left flank across  
the midline and
extending from the umbilicus to under the xiphisternum. Measurements were  
at least 20 cm
in each direction. There was no peripheral lymphadenopathy at any site.  
Chest x-ray from February 4, 2002 was normal. The most recent abdominal  
imaging is an ultrasound from February 11th which shows a large mass. Bone  
marrow biopsy done in November 2001 was negative for lymphoma.

ASSESSMENT
     This is a 70-year-old man with a history of transformed MALT  
lymphoma, the high-grade component being either diffuse large cell  
lymphoma or small non-cleaved, non-Burkitt's lymphoma. He was treated in  
1994 with subtotal gastrectomy followed by eight cycles of CHOP  
chemotherapy with complete remission. Treatment was complicated by  
anthracycline-included cardiomyopathy. He presents with a recurrence of  
lymphoma with a large abdominal mass and ECOG performance status of 3 or  
greater.
     Mr. Hurd's lymphoma recurrence is not a curable condition. However,  
he would likely benefit symptomatically from a course of palliative  
chemotherapy. We are in agreement with Dr. Wass that a trial of alkylating  
agent-based chemotherapy would be a reasonable first-line approach.  
Because of the seven-year interval between requirements for treatment, his  
lymphoma may well be sensitive to alkylating agents. Should he not respond  
to an alkylating agent, he may benefit from a course of palliative  
Etoposide. The mass is too large for palliative radiotherapy, which would  
likely result in significant morbidity, particularly in a gentleman who  
has had a previous subtotal gastrectomy. Finally, he may if these  
treatment approaches fail possibly benefit from treatment with antibodies;  
however, this would not be our favored first-line approach due to the bulk  
of the mass.
                                    END OF TRANSCRIPT

        Following the consultation I was put on a 6 month chemo regime of  
CVP. The abcess mentioned in the transcript caused the stiches in the 1994  
surgery to pop leaving me with a very large hernia which was not operated  
on at the time since I was on chemo.
        The chemo shrunk the tumor by a little less than 1/2. During the  
chemo (which ended in June, 2002) I developed a persistent cough which  
developed because the lymphoma had blocked the thorasic duct and fluid was  
building up in the right lung. My onc decided to start me on fludarabine  
in the fall after an attempt to solve the lung problem. I went into  
hospital in Aug for 8 days while fluid was continuously drained from the  
lung (a liter a day) and I was on a very restricted diet. The lung  
specialist was sure the fluid problem was insolvable unless the cancer was  
checked but discharged me anyway since the diet had somewhat reduced the  
fluid. My GP communicated to my wife that I probably wouldn't recover. I  
came out of the hospital minus another 15 pounds and barely able to  
shuffle around the house, sleeping most of the time. However my extensive  
research on alternative approaches to cancer settled me on trying the  
curcumin which I began on Sept.2, 2002. Tumor mass was now 11x4.5 cm. The  
fludarabine was begun at half dose on Sept. 17. On Oct. 11 my onc was  
amazed to find she could no longer feel the large abdominal mass, only a  
small mass. Also by this time the fluid buildup in the lung had stopped  
indicating the thorasic duct was no longer blocked by lymphoma. Another  
fact was that my energy was increasing remarkably, which the onc said was  
very unusual on fludarabine which usually caused fatigue. This was after  
41 days of curcumin and 24 days of 1/2 dose fludarabine.
         The regime was continued for 6 rounds until Feb. 7/03. Tumor now  
at 5x3 cm, so down about half. It was decided to try 3 more rounds of  
fludarabine ending on May 14/03, at which time a cat scan showed no change  
in size of abdominal mass. The onc was not sure whether tumor was active  
or we had arrived at scar tissue, but decided to stop the chemo. I stayed  
on the curcumin as time went on.
          In late Sept./03 I had abdominal surgery to repair the hernia  
and the surgeon took a very good look at the mesentery. Two biopsies  
showed no active cancer but considerable scar tissue.
           My read on this sequence of events is that the shrinkage of the  
tumor occurred almost entirely between Sept. 2 and Oct. 11/02, when the  
onc noticed the remarkable shrinkage, leaving approximately a 5x3 cm scar  
tissue mass which was seen in the two later cat scans. If this read is  
correct, then was it mostly the curcumin for 41 days or the fludarabine at  
1/2 dose for 24 days or a happy synthesis. I am reinforced in the curcumin  
hypothesis because a year ago I developed lymph node swelling in my neck  
suspiciously like lymphoma, went back on the heavy dose curcumin and it  
disappeared in about a week. At any rate, after being described as  
incurable, I am still cancer free and my onc says that with any luck I am  
cured. This is probably premature, given the nature of lymphoma, and I  
take each day at a time.
            A final few remarks. I tried many alternative approaches to  
cancer and did a lot of research, being a retired university prof of  
math.  I agree that many testimonials are lacking, but you can find a lot  
more info if you dig. My philosophy was that I would try about anything as  
long as I was convinced it wouldn't harm me, and not wait for the double  
blind tests.  The amazing thing about curcumin was that it was in a  
completely different league from most of the other alternatives as far as  
research was concerned. That being said, I have to remember talking to a  
lymphoma survivor who had after much chemo and radiation was given 3 weeks  
to live.  She went on the grape cure (Johanna Brandt) and was completely  
cured in a year. A few months later I heard two cancer researches say they  
had discovered in the skins of grapes one of the most powerful cancer  
agents they had ever tested on mice. Go figure. I understand the grape  
cure has a great following in Europe.
            If the curcumin is to be effective in cancer I think it should  
be done in the heavy doses I used and, most importantly, accompanied by  
bioperine, which increases the absorption by 10-15 times. One research  
article I read said that curcumin would be an excellent chemo but  
unfortunately was not well absorbed in the gut. The author hadn't heard of  
bioperine.

Albert

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J - 15 Mar 2005 14:14 GMT
>                          ONCOLOGY CONSULTATION
>        Mr. Hurd is a 70-year-old man with a history of transformed MALT
> lymphoma treated with subtotal gastrectomy and chemotherapy in 1994 and
> complicated by anthracycline-induced cardiomyopathy. He was seen in
> consultation on February 27, 2002 for an opinion regarding management of
> recurrent lymphoma.

<snip>

>              A final few remarks. I tried many alternative approaches to
> cancer and did a lot of research, being a retired university prof of
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> completely different league from most of the other alternatives as far as
> research was concerned.

<snip grape regimen testimonial - we here know the difficulties with
prognosticating - even between one onocologist to the other/same cancer>

>              If the curcumin is to be effective in cancer I think it should
> be done in the heavy doses I used and, most importantly, accompanied by
> bioperine, which increases the absorption by 10-15 times. One research
> article I read said that curcumin would be an excellent chemo but
> unfortunately was not well absorbed in the gut. The author hadn't heard of
> bioperine.

Some comments to you and (but mostly) to the readers of alt.support.cancer.
We have heard thousands of claim/products over the years.

How do you know the swollen neck lymph node wasn't a sequelae of your lung
problem and/or viral (which would have cleared up on its own) ?

Reminding the readers that your type of cancer(s) have a proven track record
with chemo.
Otherwise, the following quotes from Steph stand.
"three cancers with a proven track record with chemo (Hodkin's lymphoma, NHL
and testis germ cell).
Of the 22 most common adult cancers (excluding non-melanoma skin cancer), there
is evidence of a survival benefit from chemotherapy in only 9%."
"For every 100 cancers cured, surgery cures about 55, radiotherapy about 40,
and chemotherapy about 5. - DaVita)

Many cancer patients only have two good shots at it; surgery and/or radiation
therapy.

So this thread was started in conjunction with lymphoma and radiation therapy.
I note that your post was about chemo and such a regimen.

I cannot imagine how a radiation therapist would plan the dosing of radiation
therapy for the additional "regimen" that you added, without having some type
of guideline, (such as clinical trials), in order to not result in less
effective rad dosage or radiation toxicity.  Seems to me same holds true for
chemo and such a regimen. Would appreciate Steph's comment on this.

We sometimes have a hard enough time convincing people to overcome their fears
about radiation therapy, without there being stories going around about
radiation toxicity or inefficacy (and not being given the facts as to what
other "regimens" they might have been trying at the same time).  And I want the
best there is for each person/type/stage of cancer.

The tendency is to blame (and/or sue) the person who can be located (stable
place of business)...and is viewed to have money and/or liability
insurance..which is....the doctor (not the grapeseed or curcumin seller).

I think it's important to prove that a single regimen works (or disprove) and
assess for toxicity through clinical trials;
singly,
in any combo of (various) chemos and/or radiation therapy;

I wonder how much time and cost, those 1,000's of claims would take in clinical
trials. <rhetorical>
J
.
Albert Hurd - 15 Mar 2005 16:43 GMT
Sorry I wasn't aware of the guidelines for the newsgroup. I came to the  
post from Karen in a search involving curcumin, and first posted to her,  
then thought my comments might help generally. I really don't want to  
engage in argument about proof and leave that to you  My philosophy, as I  
thought I made clear, was to try just about everything, as long as I felt  
it wouldn't harm me. I do believe that curcumin may complement radiation  
and chemo. If someone feels they needs absolute proof that something will  
work before they try it, thats their call.

>>                          ONCOLOGY CONSULTATION
>>        Mr. Hurd is a 70-year-old man with a history of transformed MALT
[quoted text clipped - 93 lines]
> J
> .

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J - 15 Mar 2005 20:02 GMT
> Sorry I wasn't aware of the guidelines for the newsgroup.

Albert,
Who said anything about guidelines for this newsgroup?
But while you bring up the subject, "top-posting" is writing and reading
backwards.
Post your reply at the bottom of a person's reply or intersperse your comments
between the other's and <snip>/delete the extra text

> I came to the
> post from Karen in a search involving curcumin, and first posted to her,

Yes, you did on another thread.

> then thought my comments might help generally.

Yes, you started a new thread.

> I really don't want to
> engage in argument about proof and leave that to you

Newsgrouups are about discussion.
One person posts a subject (with their opinion/view/point/argument).
Others reply, ask questions, present their view/point/argument. You reply to
them, they reply to you.
That's how newsgroup (and real life) discussions go.
Original person replies, answer question, reply point by point, delete what
they don't want to reply to.

Then their signature is just below it.

> <snip>Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

I was presenting my points and asked you a question...
How about going back to my reply and replying?
J
Albert Hurd - 15 Mar 2005 23:10 GMT
Sorry that my way of answering posts annoys you but I won't be dictated to  
by you or anyone else.  I read thru your rant and found no question you  
asked. At any rate I don't want to get into a debate with you about  
alternatives and proofs. I survived stage four cancer twice and that is  
good enough for me.  I wish you well in your search for absolute proof,  
and hope that you, if you have cancer, are never told that conventional  
treatment has reached an end and you are with certainty going to die. This  
is my last post to you.
A.

>> Sorry I wasn't aware of the guidelines for the newsgroup.
>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> How about going back to my reply and replying?
> J

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Peter Moran - 15 Mar 2005 21:26 GMT
> Peter,
>
> Sorry I didn't provide details. The lymphoma first occurred in 1994, and
> recurred in the fall of 2001. First a (slightly edited) transcript of a
> consultation with Dr. R. Klasa of the BC Cancer Agency in Vancouver on
> Feb. 27, 2002. My comments are in parentheses.

Thanks for the further information, which I have snipped for brevity.   The
objective and measurable component in the testimonial is the size of the
mass (hydrothorax may refill very slowly and energy levels are too
subjective to take notice of).    We do not have clear objective evidence
that the mass reduced by half at the point you wish us to focus upon, only
the palpation of the oncologist, which can vary with many factors.   We
don't have  ultrasound or other imaging at this point in the story.    We
also are required to assume that the three and a half weeks of fludarabine
could not have produced any effects noted.

" If this read is  correct, then was it mostly the curcumin for 41 days or
the fludarabine at
1/2 dose for 24 days or a happy synthesis. "

I agree with the three possibilities.   It counts as a "possible" for
curcumin,  without proving a treatment effect.   Fortunately curcumin is
being properly evaluated under conditions where there will be no room for
doubt.

I am glad you are doing so well, and I value your objectivity.

Peter Moran

>                         ONCOLOGY CONSULTATION
>       Mr. Hurd is a 70-year-old man with a history of transformed MALT
[quoted text clipped - 157 lines]
>
> Albert
Peter Moran - 15 Mar 2005 21:51 GMT
> Peter,
> That being said, I have to remember talking to a  lymphoma survivor who
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> tested on mice. Go figure. I understand the grape  cure has a great
> following in Europe.

This is what I mean by scuttlebutt.   We are denied any possibility of
finding out what really happened with this patient and what they were
actually told.    If the grape cure worked with a case of otherwise
incurable cancer, that is big news, --- why do we only get to hear about it
this way?

Peter Moran.
Albert Hurd - 15 Mar 2005 22:28 GMT
Probably because most of the people who report these kinds of cures don't  
have the resources to do clinical trials and conventional medecine will in  
most cases not be interested for its own reasons which I won't go into  
(curcumin is a welcome exception). The person I reported on would have  
died if she hadn't tried alternatives. I understand you have cancer as  
well. I wish you well in waiting for absolute proof before you try any  
alternatives, and pray you never reach the point that you are given 3  
weeks to live by your onc.

>> Peter,
>> That being said, I have to remember talking to a  lymphoma survivor who
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Peter Moran.

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J - 15 Mar 2005 23:04 GMT
> Probably because most of the people who report these kinds of cures don't
> have the resources to do clinical trials and conventional medecine will in
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> alternatives, and pray you never reach the point that you are given 3
> weeks to live by your onc.

Peter's a doctor who has spent years researching alternative "treatments".

Socks was told "3 months". As of yesterday, it's been 4 years..
As I told you before there's problems prognosticating..

The main cancer convention clinical trial website
http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/
There's 2 clinical trials on curcumin...
1.  Recruiting Curcumin in Patients with Mild to Moderate Alzheimer's Disease

2.  Recruiting Trial of Curcumin in Advanced Pancreatic Cancer Conditions:
Pancreatic Neoplasms; Adenocarcinoma

If Peter knows of more through NCCAM Complementary and Alternaitve, (or
elsewhere), I await his info.
They do cliniical trials http://nccam.nih.gov/

J
Peter Moran - 16 Mar 2005 00:37 GMT
> Probably because most of the people who report these kinds of cures don't
> have the resources to do clinical trials and conventional medecine will in
> most cases not be interested for its own reasons which I won't go into
> (curcumin is a welcome exception).

It is not difficult to show an truly effective cancer agent is effective.
It just needs those promoting it to perform the simple phase 11 studies of
the type that  are all that conventional medicine does with new agents.  You
take a small series of patients with proven measurable cancer and see what
happens to them.    Cancer is predictable enough in its behaviour for each
patients to serve as their own control, within limits

Anyone with sufficient knowledge of cancer to be a reliable observer should
be able to perform this kind of  study, and to continue to produce
favourable cases regularly.  If they can't then there is little  reason to
trust them in the first place.

It is part of the scam/delusion/self-serving conspiracy  to pretend that
controlled trials, even sophisticated placebo-controlled ones,  are the only
possible next step up from testimonial of the usual appalling quality.

The true problem for the "alternative" promoter and salesmen  is that they
cannot produce good quality anecdotal material in sufficient quantity to
generate medical interest.  Hundreds of thousands of patients with proven
measurable cancer are using alternative treatments every year, and yet
credible well-documented testimonials  are as rare as hen's teeth.    The
appalling quality  of most testimonial further suggests that the promoters
of those treatments don't know enough about cancer to have any idea what
their treatments do.

Remember also that cancer-treating doctors have considerable experience of
our patients using whatever "alternaitve" is fashionable at any time and
there is a lot of  negative experience from that to be overcome..

Peter Moran
Albert Hurd - 16 Mar 2005 17:14 GMT
>> Probably because most of the people who report these kinds of cures  
>> don't
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> what
> happens to them.

Very interesting.  Could you give me a link or two where the protocol for  
phase 11 trials is laid out. Thanks.

A.
Peter Moran - 16 Mar 2005 21:59 GMT
>>> Probably because most of the people who report these kinds of cures
>>> don't
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Very interesting.  Could you give me a link or two where the protocol for
> phase 11 trials is laid out. Thanks.

Protocols may vary, but the basic study can be described in a few words.
You decide that new patients who have biopsy-proven measurable cancer, and
who are receiving no other treatment, will be treated with the agent is
question (after proper informed consent), and the patient is then followed
up for, say six months.   Most cancers will show signs of progression by
then without treatment, so that the patients are acting as their own
controls.     Any agent as effective as is usually claimed within
"alternative" lore, or as is implied by the promotional testimonials should
be producing at least a few dramatic remissions within as few as twenty or
thirty patients.    (Phase 1 studies do something similar but with varying
dosages to determine treatment tolerance)

Such studies cannot demonstrate lesser treatment effects such as
prolongation of survival from cancer, since lengths of survival so variable
and unpredictable.   But no one should make such claims  in the first place
without serious clinical studies.

In the course of a recent brief exchange of mail over a few weeks with
Howard Strauss of the Gerson clinic he produced four patients who would have
been suitable for such a study under their immediate care.  So the material
is available, and doctors would cooperate with the evaluation if they knew
that serious investigation was underway .   He promised that they will do
such a study but I am not holding my breath.   The true reason for not
embarking on such simple, obvious research are the risks involved.

Peter Moran

> A.
Albert Hurd - 16 Mar 2005 23:16 GMT
>>>> Probably because most of the people who report these kinds of cures
>>>> don't
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> and
> who are receiving no other treatment,

I think this one requirement is possibly the drawback for many. Over the  
years I have been ingesting many substances including chemo and  
alternatives, and tried meditation, etc. I rarely noticed dramatic effects  
but my onc reported that my blood work stood up remarkably well  
throughout, possibly due to the antioxidant vitamins I was doing (who  
knows but that the meditation might have helped). I was mostly concerned  
about keeping my body and immune system very healthy to counter possible  
effects of the chemo down the road. Now if I am ever declared terminal, as  
the person I described was, I assure you I would similtaneously take  
anything and everything that I thought would work, and to hell with trying  
to get proof that any one of these substances by itself was what did the  
trick, and perhaps you might do likewise in a similar situation. I laud  
your efforts on behalf af alternate and complementary treatments in the  
hope that the truly effective substances will be identified and others can  
benefit, but hope you can understand that proof of efficacy of any one  
substance if not necessarily uppermost in the mind of someone afflicted  
with cancer.

> will be treated with the agent is
> question (after proper informed consent), and the patient is then  
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
>> A.

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Peter Moran - 17 Mar 2005 04:30 GMT
>>>>> Probably because most of the people who report these kinds of cures
>>>>> don't
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> throughout, possibly due to the antioxidant vitamins I was doing (who
> knows but that the meditation might have helped).

I should have specified no "recent change if treatment".  You are right that
most of those who use alternaitves  will use multiple agents. Those on which
the cancer has progressed can obviously be discounted

>I was mostly concerned  about keeping my body and immune system very
>healthy to counter possible  effects of the chemo down the road. Now if I
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>you can understand that proof of efficacy of any one  substance if not
>necessarily uppermost in the mind of someone afflicted  with cancer.

I agree entirely.  What the cancer patient has to learn to do is to exert
other absolute rights.  To proper informed consent.  To be able to ask "how
many patients like me have you treated and what happened to them" and expect
a straight answer.

In short, to "view the books" of those claiming to have a cancer cure or
selling one.

Peter Moran

>> will be treated with the agent is
>> question (after proper informed consent), and the patient is then
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>>
>>> A.
J - 18 Mar 2005 19:45 GMT
> In the course of a recent brief exchange of mail over a few weeks with
> Howard Strauss of the Gerson clinic he produced four patients who would have
> been suitable for such a study under their immediate care.

Speaking of mail exchanges, Peter.
Have you ever had any with Martin? (Marty in Oz)
He's made claims here for years about essiac.
NSCLC, one lung removed, claimed he had liver mets that reduced significantly
with Essiac.
And attributes his survival <5 years to Essiac.
I could send you a link  - can't post it because it shows his address..
No liver biopsy report, nor the original CT-scan.
It would be nice to settle this once and for all and if there's missing
information, since he's in the same country as you, I see no reason he could not
get the missing information (somehow) to you, even if you both meet at a pub to
do so. Or if it's couriered to you.
Thanks,
J
 
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