Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Breast Cancer / January 2004
Cosmetic chemicals found in breast tumours
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Ilena - 12 Jan 2004 16:02 GMT Cosmetic chemicals found in breast tumours 12:24 12 January 04 NewScientist.com news service http://www.newscientist.com/news/print.jsp?id=ns99994555 Preservative chemicals found in samples of breast tumours probably came from underarm deodorants, UK scientists have claimed.
Their analysis of 20 breast tumours found high concentrations of para-hydroxybenzoic acids (parabens) in 18 samples. Parabens can mimic the hormone estrogen, which is known to play a role in the development of breast cancers. The preservatives are used in many cosmetics and some foods to increase their shelf-life.
"From this research it is not possible to say whether parabens actually caused these tumours, but they may certainly be associated with the overall rise in breast cancer cases," says Philip Harvey, an editor of the Journal of Applied Toxicology, which published the research.
"Given that breast cancer is the largest killer of women and a very high percentage of young women use underarm deodorants, I think we should be carrying out properly funded, further investigations into parabens and where they are found in the body," Harvey told New Scientist.
Chemical cousins
The new research was led by molecular biologist Philippa Darbre, at the University of Reading. She says that the ester-bearing form of parabens found in the tumours indicates it came from something applied to the skin, such as an underarm deodorant, cream or body spray. When parabens are eaten, they are metabolised and lose the ester group, making them less strongly estrogen-mimicking. "One would expect tumours to occur evenly, with 20 per cent arising in each of the five areas of the breast," Darbre told New Scientist. "But these results help explain why up to 60 per cent of all breast tumours are found in just one-fifth of the breast - the upper-outer quadrant, nearest the underarm." However, Chris Flower, director general of the Cosmetic, Toiletry and Perfumery Association, challenged the study's findings. "There are almost no deodorants and body sprays that contain parabens," he says. "Although they are in most other creams and cosmetics, the safety margin is huge and they would not have any effect on enhancing growth of new tumours." Darbre replies that deodorants and antiperspirants have only stopped containing parabens in the last few months and that the tumours she studied occurred prior to this. None of the deodorants on sale in two British high street shops contained any parabens, a survey by New Scientist confirmed. However, many other products including body lotions, face creams, cleansers and shampoos did. Some products contained as many as five different kinds of parabens.
Skin deep Previously published studies have shown that parabens are able to be absorbed through the skin and to bind to the body's estrogen-receptors, where they can encourage breast cancer cell growth. But Flower maintains that the amount of parabens absorbed by the skin is very low and the parabens are "metabolised by the skin cells to produce products that have no estrogenic activity". Darbre's research did not look at the concentrations of parabens in other areas of the breast or body tissues and Harvey cautions that the significance of the chemicals in tumour tissue should not be over-interpreted. Darbre says she has not used cosmetic products, including underarm deodorants, for eight years. She recommends that other women do the same "until their safety can be established". Journal reference: Journal of Applied Toxicology (vol 24, p5) Gaia Vince
Tim Worstall - 12 Jan 2004 18:21 GMT > Cosmetic chemicals found in breast tumours > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > "Given that breast cancer is the largest killer of women There's one major problem here. It makes the rest of what this guy is saying extremely suspect : if not complete nonsense. Breast Cancer is NOT the " largest killer of women ".
Indicators of the Nations Health: Female death rates by selected causes England Rates per 100,000 population
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1996 1997 1998 1999* 2000 2001*
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All causes 1,099.4 1,091.2 1,078.5 1082.3 1039.9 1033.9 All Malignant Neoplasms (ICD 140-208) 248.9 244.8 242.6 245.4 235.9 243.0 Stomach (ICD 151) 9.4 9.6 9.2 8.6 7.9 7.9 Colon, rectum, rectosigmoid junction & anus (ICD 153-4) 28.7 27.6 26.9 26.9 24.9 24.7 Pancreas (ICD 157) 11.4 11.2 11.1 11.6 11.4 11.7 Lung (ICD 162) 41.8 40.8 41.6 41.4 40.8 41.4 Breast (ICD 174) 45.9 45.0 43.8 44.2 42.0 43.0 Uterus (ICD 179-82) 9.9 9.4 9.1 4.1 9.0 3.7 Diabetes mellitus (ICD 250) 11.9 11.7 11.5 12.1 11.3 11.8 All circulatory diseases (ICD 390-459) 464.9 445.9 439.0 439.8 396.2 409.5 Ischaemic heart disease (ICD 410-14) 220.0 208.5 203.9 192.6 178.4 175.0 Cerebrovascular disease (ICD 430-8) 141.3 135.3 134.1 143.4 121.8 134.9 Pneumonia (ICD 480-6) 124.5 130.7 122.8 85.5 126.2 72.4 Bronchitis and allied conditions (ICD 490-6) 43.0 44.0 43.3 42.5 42.8 38.9 Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis (ICD 571) 5.7 6.2 6.3 6.9 6.8 7.2 All accidents & adverse effects (ICD E800-E949) 16.6 17.0 16.1 16.4 17.2 17.6 Road vehicle accidents (ICD E810-29) 3.5 3.4 3.3 3.2 3.2 2.9 Suicide (ICD E950-9, E980-9 excluding E988.8) 4.8 4.7 4.8 3.1 4.9 2.8
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My apologies for the table not coming out neatly. But as you can see breast cancer is 1 /5 th of all cancer deaths, just over 1/5 th of heart disease, and 1/3 the level of strokes. Hell, at 43 deaths per 100,000 it's still less than pneumonia.
Ilena, can't you try and read these things before you post them ?
The above table, by the way, if from the UK dept of health at :
http://www.doh.gov.uk/HPSSS/TBL_A4.HTM
Tim Worstall
and a very
> high percentage of young women use underarm deodorants, I think we > should be carrying out properly funded, further investigations into [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > Gaia Vince su-texas@webtv.net - 12 Jan 2004 19:32 GMT There's one major problem here. It makes the rest of what this guy is saying extremely suspect : if not complete nonsense. Breast Cancer is NOT the " largest killer of women ".
==========
There are probably some errors, in everything that's written.
You go through articles, ... pick out the important-looking parts, & the names of research projects & researchers, ... then read more about them, & ask questions.
Susan, Su_Texas my opinions
PS After I was badly injured in Jan 1998, I started having bad reactions to underarm deodorants & antiperspirants.
I switched to using baking soda & cornstarch. Then, switched from that to using rubbing alcohol.
Recently, I read that chemicals/etc can be absorbed through the skin, much easier, faster, & in larger quantities, than medications taken orally.
So, it might be important Not to put those substances (which could harm you) on your skin.
Ilena - 12 Jan 2004 21:51 GMT tcw@2xtreme.net (Tim Worstall)
> There's one major problem here. It makes the rest of what this guy is > saying extremely suspect : if not complete nonsense. One error in a reporter's story does NOT make it complete nonsense ...
No one is saying this is definitive ... science unfolds ... try this version by the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3383393.stm
Concern over deodorant chemicals The chemicals were found in breast cancer tumours Chemicals from underarm deodorants and other cosmetics can build up inside the body, according to a study. British researchers have found traces of chemicals called parabens in tissue taken from women with breast cancer.
While there is no evidence they cause cancer, the scientists have called for the use of parabens to be reviewed.
The cosmetics industry insists the chemicals, which are used as preservatives and are approved for use by regulators, are safe.
Dr Philippa Darbre and colleagues at the University of Reading carried out tests on samples of 20 different human breast tumours.
Writing in the Journal of Applied Toxicology, they say they found traces of parabens in every sample.
Parabens have a very, very good safety profile
Chris Flower, Cosmetic Toiletry & Perfumery Association Their tests suggested the chemicals had seeped into the tissue after being applied to the skin.
"This is the first study to show their accumulation in human tissues," said Dr Darbre.
"It demonstrates that if people are exposed to these chemicals, then the chemicals will accumulate in their bodies."
'Drive tumours'
Dr Darbre said there may be reason for people to be concerned about the findings.
"Their detection in human breast tumours is of concern since parabens have been shown to be able to mimic the action of the female hormone oestrogen," she said.
"Oestrogen can drive the growth of human breast tumours. It would therefore seem especially prudent to consider whether parabens should continue to be used in such a wide range of cosmetics applied to the breast area including deodorants."
Dr Philip Harvey, European editor of the journal, said the findings should be interpreted cautiously.
"Further work is required to examine any association between oestrogenic and other chemicals in underarm cosmetics and breast cancer."
We have an enormous amount of information which supports the safety of these chemicals and their use in cosmetics
Chris Flower Cosmetic Toiletry & Perfumery Association
Chris Flower, director general of the UK's Cosmetic Toiletry & Perfumery Association, welcomed the study.
"It is welcome additional information and we will want to examine the findings in detail," he told BBC News Online.
"However, parabens have a very, very good safety profile. We have an enormous amount of information which supports the safety of these chemicals and their use in cosmetics."
Caution
Delyth Morgan of Breakthrough Breast Cancer said: "This extremely small study does not demonstrate a direct causal link between deodorant or antiperspirant use and developing breast cancer.
"Further research is needed to establish the source of the chemicals found in the breast tumour samples and what, if any, the relationship is to breast cancer."
A spokesman for the UK's Department of Trade and Industry said government scientists would examine the findings.
"Parabens are approved for use in the UK and in Europe and all the information we have suggests they are safe to use.
"However, British scientists will examine this study."
Dr Richard Sullivan, head of clinical programmes at Cancer Research UK, said there was no evidence that deodorants were linked to an increased risk of breast cancer.
He said the latest study was very small, and had by no means produced conclusive results.
"The increased incidence we are seeing of breast cancer can be explained by many other factors," he said.
Lisasbucc - 13 Jan 2004 13:04 GMT > samples of 20 different human breast tumours. That's a pretty small sample on which to base a firedrill. I'll refrain judgement until a satisfactory study has been done.
...lisa (who has never had to use deodorant but had breast cancer anyway)
Kaye301 - 20 Jan 2004 14:58 GMT Lisa wrote: << That's a pretty small sample on which to base a firedrill. I'll refrain judgement until a satisfactory study has been done.
...lisa (who has never had to use deodorant but had breast cancer anyway)>>
Agree and am coming from same perspective. As far as increased incidence of breast cancer, particularly in selected more affluent communities in California, I think it would be interesting to do a study to see if there is greater use of bottled water which is stored in plastic bottles. About 8 years ago, while researching early pubertal development, I came across studies which linked possibiity of such to food stored in plastic containers which had propensity to result in increased estrogen levels for consumers of such. I saw a red flag--because of what I did only with our youngest, who happened to have this 'problem.' I nursed all 3 of my kids exclusively until 6 mos. of age. I did something differently with our youngest than I did with the others. I went back to work earlier but made sure she had breast milk by nursing one side and pumping the other. I stored the milk in plastic playtex nursers and then when it was time to feed--just nuked them. I did this way past age it was needed. She never had cows milk as young child -- at least in a bottle -- only breast milk and she stopped nursing at 21 mos, although am not sure I was still pumping for the last few mos. One of the reasons I nursed my kids as long as I did was that I hoped that it would add further protection for me against breast cancer along with being 'healthier' for them. It didn't work. Anyway, I know that in some of the more affluent California communities more of the women belong to gyms or are involved in outdoor sports where they would take extra water along. Interestingly, it takes about 8 ot 10 years for breast cancer to be detected after it first starts, on the average. That is about the time frame that I got dx'd with b.c. and when the bottled water companies switched from glass to plastic bottles. We use Arrowhead--and got it because of the fluoridated water. I don't believe the flouridated water had anything to do with it, but I am not so sure about the plastic bottles. Again, if one does research on increase in estrogen levels, there does appear to be an association between such and at the least cooking and possibly of storage and/or cooking of food in plastic containers.
Glenfiddich - 20 Jan 2004 20:22 GMT >Lisa wrote: << That's a pretty small sample on which to base a firedrill. I'll >refrain [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >study to see if there is greater use of bottled water which is stored in >plastic bottles. I think you're onto something - medical research has found statistically significant amounts of water in ALL tumors. There's a consiracy to keep this from us - when was the last time you saw its water content mentioned in a lab report on a tumor?
Seriously, though - the biological effects of volatile plasticisers used in commercial plastic products seems to have attracted little research effort.
Kaye301 - 22 Jan 2004 02:41 GMT Glenfiddich wrote: << Seriously, though - the biological effects of volatile plasticisers used in commercial plastic products seems to have attracted little research effort.
I thought there was some research going on in this area. I am not certain how carcinogenic plastics are, per se, but they may directly do something that affects hormones and results in overproduction of some type(s) of estrogens.
Kaye301 - 22 Jan 2004 02:46 GMT There's an interesting article--or at least one that is related: http://www.worldandi.com/public/2001/October/ee.html If of interest, you can do web search re. such... I learned about plastic and estrogens in relation to possible contributing factor to earlier pubertal development.
Alastair McDonald - 12 Jan 2004 23:03 GMT > > Cosmetic chemicals found in breast tumours > > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > saying extremely suspect : if not complete nonsense. > Breast Cancer is NOT the " largest killer of women ". That would be true if the New Scientist's report is accurate. If you had read a little further you would have seen that what was meant was that Breast Cancer is the largest killer of YOUNG women.
"Given that breast cancer is the largest killer of women and a very high percentage of young women use underarm deodorants, I think we should be carrying out properly funded, further investigations into parabens and where they are found in the body," Harvey told New Scientist.
Snip of statistics that would make Lomborg feel proud.
> Ilena, can't you try and read these things before you post them ? Perhaps you should have read a bit further before you snipped Ilena's post!
Cheers, Alastair.
Tim Worstall - 13 Jan 2004 08:30 GMT > > ilena@san.rr.com (Ilena) wrote in message > news:<19faaec.0401120802.495b0a9a@posting.google.com>... [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > read a little further you would have seen that what was meant was that > Breast Cancer is the largest killer of YOUNG women. Sorry, where does it say that breast cancer is the biggest killer of young women ? It says that " breast cancer is the largest killer of women " and then " a very high percentage of young women use underarm deodorants ". It does not say or imply that breast cancer is the largest killer of young women . You've just made that up.
Tim Worstall
> "Given that breast cancer is the largest killer of women and a very > high percentage of young women use underarm deodorants, I think we [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Cheers, Alastair. FerdiEgb - 13 Jan 2004 19:11 GMT To all,
As usual, one need to be cautious about results like from this research. The fact that one finds chemicals at places where tumors are, doesn't give any answer on the cause-and-effect point.
Some years ago, one did find a "link" between DDT methabolites and breast cancer, with the same arguments as this one. But a much larger study, which compared DDT levels of nurses which had their blood extracted years before the onset of breast cancer with that of nurses who didn't catch breast cancer, found no difference in average DDT levels of the old blood samples.
The point is that, as cancer is a very demanding disease, cancer patients burn their fat at a much higher rate. As DDT (and probably parabens in this case) is highly fat soluble, any amount of DDT will redistribute over the remaining fat, including breast fat, thus causing elevated levels per gram fat.
Just my opinion...
Ferdinand
Alastair McDonald - 14 Jan 2004 12:17 GMT > To all, > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Ferdinand Hi Ferdi,
I am not arguing that deodarants cause breast cancer, though both my sister in law and her daughter have suffered from it, and they are not sloppy when it comes to personal hygeine.
It seems strange to me that a woman in her fifties and her daughter in her twenties should get cancer within a few years of each other, even if it is hereditary. One would not expect a young woman in her twenties to get that disease. Perhaps this is why I feel that the doctor meant to say, or was misreported, that breast cancer is the biggest killer amongst YOUNG women.
AFAIK breast cancer does not affect women over 60 so a doctor would be well aware that it is not the main killer of women, only that it is the main cause of premature death amonst women, which I am sure was the message intended.
Cheers, Alastair.
Lisasbucc - 14 Jan 2004 15:31 GMT Alastair wrote:
>AFAIK breast cancer does not affect women over 60 Sure it does. A woman can be diagnosed with breast cancer at ANY age. My mother, in fact, got yer diagnosis at 63. Where did you get that information?
...lisa
Tim Jackson - 14 Jan 2004 19:58 GMT > AFAIK breast cancer does not affect women over 60 so a > doctor would be well aware that it is not the main killer of > women, only that it is the main cause of premature death amonst > women, which I am sure was the message intended. This is not true. Breast cancer diagnoses per 100,000 population per year, by age group ( US SEER 1992-7) 00-04 0.00 05-09 0.00 10-14 0.03 15-19 0.15 20-24 1.57 25-29 8.28 30-34 26.69 35-39 66.13 40-44 140.86 45-49 241.00 50-54 313.87 55-59 359.52 60-64 411.48 65-69 465.88 70-74 521.21 75-79 534.25 80-84 508.18 85+ 409.72
(With thanks to Lance Hill who gave me the table)
Tim Jackson
Coleah - 14 Jan 2004 20:29 GMT I found all sorts of 'opinions' about the leading causes of death. Guess it depends upon who is reporting it and where:
Leading Causes of Death, Females, United States http://www.cdc.gov/od/spotlight/nwhw/lcod.htm http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/hearttruth/press/infograph_leadingcauses.pdf http://www.myhealthspan.com/womenstatisticscauseofdeath.shtm http://www.cancercontrol.cancer.gov/womenofcolor/pdfs/american_indian-tables.pdf http://www.fitness2go.net/learning%20center/leading%20cause%20death%20white%20fe males.htm http://www3.who.int/whosis/fctc/Submissions/F1350132.pdf http://www.mercola.com/2003/jan/15/doctors_drugs.htm http://www.nga.org/center/divisions/1,1188,C_ISSUE_BRIEF%5ED_1915,00.html http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/news/suicide.html http://www.thebody.com/cdc/news_updates_archive/2003/feb20_03/latinas_aids.html http://www.in.gov/isdh/programs/owh/county_databook_2001/part1c2.htm http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/causes.html?source=DeathClock http://www.tulsaworld.com/health/Hwomens_causedeath.asp http://www.curezone.com/forums/m.asp?f=83&i=310
Murder: The Leading Cause of Death for Pregnant Women http://www.now.org/issues/violence/043003pregnant.html
Suicide leading cause of deaths among new mothers http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/press/preleases/pr/pr_352.htm
Cancer - leading cause of death among females, down under http://www.stats.govt.nz/domino/external/web/nzstories.nsf/0/d393a86a4ecc6deacc2 56b180006d772?OpenDocument
Medical Errors Leading Cause of Death http://womenshealth.about.com/b/a/002077.htm
Autoimmune Disease a Leading Cause of Death in Women http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/4614/51451
Suicide the leading cause of death among young adults in China http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/2002/E/20023418.html
Africa: Violence Leading cause of death http://two.pairlist.net/pipermail/contactafrica/2002-December/000284.html
Illegal Abortions Second Leading Cause of Death Among Women in Ethiopian Hospitals http://www.ppmarmonte.org/news/viewer.asp?ID=606
Death in Thailand http://www.canoe.ca/Health0108/31_aids2-ap.html
United Kingdom http://www.obmed.org/journal/07.pdf
> > AFAIK breast cancer does not affect women over 60 so a > > doctor would be well aware that it is not the main killer of [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Tim Jackson Tim Worstall - 15 Jan 2004 09:02 GMT > > To all, > > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > AFAIK breast cancer does not affect women over 60 ???? As Tim Jackson shows this is simpy untrue. The incidence of just about all cancers increase with age. That's where the " explosion in cancer " comes from : we're all living longer so there's more cancer about. Age adjusted cancer rates are falling. Two little markers : If breast cancer did not affect the over 60's, why then has there been recent concern over HRT ? After all, it is only ever given to post menopausal women, and yet there are arguments against it because it raises the risk of breast cancer ( while reducing many other risks ). Also, have you noted that fully 50 % of men get prostate cancer ? But most of us die of something else first ? The unfortunate truth is that cancer is an inevitable side effect of the ageing process, and as such is heavily concentrated in those past reproductive age. Not all that surprising if one takes a Darwinian view of physiology.
Tim Worstall
so a
> doctor would be well aware that it is not the main killer of > women, only that it is the main cause of premature death amonst > women, which I am sure was the message intended. > > Cheers, Alastair. Alastair McDonald - 15 Jan 2004 10:08 GMT > > > To all, > > > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > all cancers increase with age. That's where the " explosion in cancer > " comes from : we're all living longer so there's more cancer about. Yes, you are and Tim are right about that, However I still believe that the doctor meant to say that the main cause of premature death in young women is breast cancer, which could well be triggered by the use of underarm deoderants.
The fact that the companies who market these products operate in a "free market" does not make that impossible or excusable. Nor does the fact that the oil companies, who also operate in a "free economy", guarantee that their operations will not lead to the destruction of mankind.
Cheers, Alastair. serious the
Tim Jackson - 15 Jan 2004 12:30 GMT > in message news:<bu3bff$87s$2@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>... > > > AFAIK breast cancer does not affect women over 60 [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > young women is breast cancer, which could well be triggered by the > use of underarm deoderants. That isn't true either. I think for under 25's, for example road traffic accidents account for more deaths. You might be able to find a narrow age band where it was true, but I doubt it, and the article was not at all specific, and therefore more likely was just plain old -wrong-. And the writer (Philip Harvey) is a journalist, not a doctor. He is an editor of a medical journal, it is a leap of faith to assume he is a doctor too.
His point would have been perfectly well made had he said that breast cancer was a major killer of women, which is true all around the world. I think the word "largest" was journalistic hyperbole and nothing else. I don't think anyone would argue with his basic premise that the finding that these compounds are concentrated in parts of the body justifies further research. Speaking as a one-time scientist (who does not use deodorants) I do not at all think that this finding alone justifies changing our habits or product formulations. It is about as significant as the statistic that in a particlar population coffee drinkers get less heart disease than tea drinkers - it shows an association, not a cause.
Tim Jackson
Ilena - 15 Jan 2004 18:22 GMT "Tim Jackson" <tim@tim-jackson.co.uk>
it shows an association, not a cause.
It was only around 5 years ago that true "causation" was proven with tobacco and lung cancer ... even tho the association was known for years ...
That is why the premature and corporate funded "conclusions" on such matters as breast implant harm are just junk science.
~~~~~~~~
www.BreastImplantAwareness.org
Andrew Langer - 15 Jan 2004 22:05 GMT >> > "Alastair McDonald" <alastair@abmcdonald.leavethisout.freeserve.co.uk> >wrote [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >particlar population coffee drinkers get less heart disease than tea >drinkers - it shows an association, not a cause. Much of this information, as it pertains to the Unites States, can be found through the CDC.
According to the CDC, doing a comprehensive search from this site:
http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/leadcaus10.html
We can find the following causes of death for women ages 20-24, in rank order (as reported thru 2001)
1 - Unintentional Injury (of which traffic deaths are the leaders at 77%, with poisoning following at a much-distant 11%);
2 - Homicide, of which firearms account for the majority;
3 - Malignant Neoplasms (cancers). Though not listed here, generally dermatologic cancers rank higher than breast cancers as primary causes of death.
Rounding out the top five are suicide and heart disease.
For the 25-34 age group, unintentional injuries remain at the top of the list, but malignant neoplasms jump up to two. Heart disease jumps up to three, and homicide drops to 4th. Suicide follows behind it.
As to the statement that breast cancer is the leading cause of death among women, the CDC says that is categorically false. Overall, heart disease is the number one cause of death.
Hope this helps.
- Andrew Langer
Any posts by Andrew Langer are his own, written by him, for his own enjoyment (and the education of others). Unless expressly stated, they represent his own views, and not those of any other individuals or entities. He is not, nor has he ever been, paid to post here.
Alastair McDonald - 16 Jan 2004 00:23 GMT > Much of this information, as it pertains to the Unites States, can be found > through the CDC. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Hope this helps. Yes it does! I used it to investigate the cause of death of women aged 21 - 60, all younger than me, but perhaps not what you would describe as young. However you would accept that their deaths were premature would you not?
The results were: 1 Malignant Neoplasms 116,237 2 Heart Disease 50,559 3 Unintentional Injury 26,093
If more than half the malignant neoplasms were breast cancer, then breast cancer would have been the major cause of death in women (aged 21 to 60.)
Cheers, Alastair.
Andrew Langer - 16 Jan 2004 01:38 GMT >> Much of this information, as it pertains to the Unites States, can be found >> through the CDC. [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >If more than half the malignant neoplasms were breast cancer, then breast >cancer would have been the major cause of death in women (aged 21 to 60.) If... If? If my grandmother had wheels she'd be a bus, as the old yiddish proverb goes.
Lung cancer is the leading cause of cancer deaths among women, Alastair, and has been since 1987. Breast cancer follows. Incidentally, breast cancer was the leading killer of women before that for 40 years, and I wonder how long aluminum-based deodorants have been around.
I would venture to guess that womens' aluminum based deodorants weren't marketed until at least the mid-60s.
Also, as to the aggregate issue of rates of death of women 21-60, it's no surprise that cancer becomes the leading cause of death. Cancer rates spike up after age 40.
Cheers!
- Andrew Langer
Any posts by Andrew Langer are his own, written by him, for his own enjoyment (and the education of others). Unless expressly stated, they represent his own views, and not those of any other individuals or entities. He is not, nor has he ever been, paid to post here.
Andrew Langer - 15 Jan 2004 22:19 GMT >Yes, you are and Tim are right about that, However I still believe that >the doctor meant to say that the main cause of premature death in >young women is breast cancer, which could well be triggered by the >use of underarm deoderants. That would still be wrong. The main cause of premature death is not breast cancer. It's not even cancer. Even if it were cancer, it still wouldn't be breast cancer.
As to the link between underarm deodorants and cancer, for years there have been various conspiracies regarding deodorants and a number of maladies (alzheimers comes to mind). No credible research has ever established a causal connection.
>The fact that the companies who market these products operate in >a "free market" does not make that impossible or excusable. Nor >does the fact that the oil companies, who also operate in a "free >economy", guarantee that their operations will not lead to the >destruction of mankind. And it's that kind of a mentality which gives rise to governemental decisionmaking that is not based on proper risk assessment, and leads to mis-prioritization of public policies. The public isn't served by that - and is, in fact, detrimentally impacted.
Cheers!
- Andrew Langer
Any posts by Andrew Langer are his own, written by him, for his own enjoyment (and the education of others). Unless expressly stated, they represent his own views, and not those of any other individuals or entities. He is not, nor has he ever been, paid to post here.
Alastair McDonald - 16 Jan 2004 01:00 GMT > >Yes, you are and Tim are right about that, However I still believe that > >the doctor meant to say that the main cause of premature death in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > cancer. It's not even cancer. Even if it were cancer, it still wouldn't be > breast cancer. See my other post.
> As to the link between underarm deodorants and cancer, for years there have been > various conspiracies regarding deodorants and a number of maladies (alzheimers > comes to mind). No credible research has ever established a causal connection. This is not a conspiacy. It is a hypothesis. It should be tested. If no research has been done, then funds should be provided so that it can be done. Moreover even if the hypothesis proves false, other discoveries may be made. For instance, it may be that people who have a fetish with personal cleanliness are genetically more prone to breast cancer (highly unlikely IMHO). Or perhaps it will be discovered that the aluminium in the deodarants can also cause alzheimers if it is regularly breathed in!
> >The fact that the companies who market these products operate in > >a "free market" does not make that impossible or excusable. Nor [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > mis-prioritization of public policies. The public isn't served by that - and > is, in fact, detrimentally impacted. There is another mentality which believes that because capitalism has brought all the benefits of modern society, therefore it can do no wrong, It believes that freedom is good, and a "free market" is perfect. It believes that if industry and commerce were freed from government restriction then utopia would be achieved. It ignores the fact that people have consciences. Companies do not. So they have to be given rules to live by, just like people. The goal of companies is to achieve the best for their shareholders, not the public. Government must set the rules by which the companies operate. Government must protect the public from those avaricious companies, and their directors who exploit their shareholders, given half a chance. Enron, the tobacco companies, and now oil and coal mining industry all come to mind. Perhaps you can think of a few more?
Cheers, Alastair.
Andrew Langer - 16 Jan 2004 01:54 GMT >> >Yes, you are and Tim are right about that, However I still believe that >> >the doctor meant to say that the main cause of premature death in [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >See my other post. And see mine. Lung cancer beats breast cancer, and has since 1987.
>> As to the link between underarm deodorants and cancer, for years there have >been [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >This is not a conspiacy. It is a hypothesis. Not one that a lot of scientists find credible.
>It should be tested. Sure. And I am sure that it has been tested and is being tested and will be tested.
> If >no research has been done, then funds should be provided so >that it can be done. Why? Why can't those who are interested in researching the hypothesis find their own funds?
> Moreover even if the hypothesis proves false, >other discoveries may be made. For instance, it may be that people >who have a fetish with personal cleanliness are genetically more >prone to breast cancer (highly unlikely IMHO). Or, how about the possibility that people who have a "fetish" for personal cleanliness may have some sort of disorder, on the order of OCD? (As has been demonstrated.)
>Or perhaps it will >be discovered that the aluminium in the deodarants can also >cause alzheimers if it is regularly breathed in! How about aluminum pots, too, Alastair?
>> >The fact that the companies who market these products operate in >> >a "free market" does not make that impossible or excusable. Nor [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >has brought all the benefits of modern society, therefore it can do >no wrong, There is no perfection, Alastair. Even the most devout capitalist will tell you that. Any system which relies on men to exist is going to be an imperfect one.
It's akin to what Churchill said about democracy.
> It believes that freedom is good, You don't believe that freedom is good?
> and a "free market" is perfect. A strawman argument. It's not that the free market is "perfect", Alastair, it's that it is democratic, efficient, and promotes prosperity and freedom.
No other economic system does that. Period. Communism, by contrast, neither promotes democracy, efficiency, prosperity, nor freedom.
>It believes that if industry and commerce were freed from >government restriction then utopia would be achieved. No, it believes that government restrictions create more problems than solutions.
> It ignores >the fact that people have consciences. Companies do not. And you ignore the fact that companies are run and staffed by people. On the other hand, bureaucracies do _NOT_ have consciences. They have rules and regulations and bureaucrats (I'm going to have to remember that the next time I am speaking to an audience of civil servants).
> So they have to be given rules to live by, just like people. The goal of > companies is to achieve the best for their shareholders, not the >public. Gee, does every anti-marketeer have the same blind spot? How many times do I have to tell you guys that if a business doesn't do right by the public, then it _GOES OUT OF BUSINESS_. People don't buy products from those who are going to harm them.
Do you want examples?
Recently, Donald Ferry raised the issue of Wampler Foods and problems with their poultry products. On researching that issue, I discovered that upon the public's discovery of this problem with Wampler, they deserted the company, driving their profits down by 80% from one quarter to the next.
Conclusion? Companies that don't do right by the public don't do right by their shareholders either, because they lose business.
Oh, and in a non-market economy, such businesses can't be punished, generally because the government running the entity can't efficiently transfer operations to a competitor. So much for non-market economies protecting consumers.
> Government must set the rules by which the companies >operate. Government must protect the public from those avaricious >companies, and their directors who exploit their shareholders, given >half a chance. Enron, the tobacco companies, and now oil and coal >mining industry all come to mind. Perhaps you can think of a few >more? Oh, I can think of dozens of state-run enterprises which harmed people, either the public generally or consumers directly.
Perhaps you can, too.
- Andrew Langer
Any posts by Andrew Langer are his own, written by him, for his own enjoyment (and the education of others). Unless expressly stated, they represent his own views, and not those of any other individuals or entities. He is not, nor has he ever been, paid to post here.
Alastair McDonald - 16 Jan 2004 08:04 GMT to breast cancer (highly unlikely IMHO).
> Gee, does every anti-marketeer have the same blind spot? How many times do I > have to tell you guys that if a business doesn't do right by the public, then it > _GOES OUT OF BUSINESS_. People don't buy products from those who are going to > harm them. Does that apply to the tobacco industry?
I am not anti-market. I do think it is a fairly efficent economic system, certainly more efficient than communism, but it does need to be regulated. All human activities need policing. Take sport, do you know of a game where an umpire or referee is not used.
> Do you want examples? > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Oh, I can think of dozens of state-run enterprises which harmed people, either > the public generally or consumers directly. It is not a matter of state run enterprise versus private enterprise. It is whether companies are made to follow the law, and laws are made for companies.
Here is a good example of how free enterprise works. The ferries between Britain and the continent were deregulated, so they started racing each other across the English Channel. By leaving port before their bow doors were closed they could knock 10 minutes off the crossing time (to the consumer benefit.) Then one day they forgot to close the bow doors. See this page and links from it;
Service for ferry disaster victims More than 190 people died when the ferry capsized A memorial service has been held to mark the 16th anniversary of the Herald of Free Enterprise ferry disaster. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2827229.stm
Regulations are needed, and no where more than in the case of carbon dioxide emissions, which have a global, not just national, effect.
Cheers, Alastair.
Andrew Langer - 16 Jan 2004 14:55 GMT >to breast cancer (highly unlikely IMHO). > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Does that apply to the tobacco industry? Ah, but in the case of tobacco, and alcohol, and fatty foods, and a host of other products, people know that there is a risk inherent in them, and choose to buy those products anyway. And before you start talking about tobacco companies denying the risk of their product, consumers were well-aware of the risks of tobacco for _YEARS_, and nevertheless smoked.
It's a basic issue of whether or not the public feels they've been dealt with honestly - in the case of Wampler foods, people felt wronged by Wampler's actions, and punished Wampler accordingly. In the case of tobacco, people knew the risks, chose to smoke, and big tobacco dealt with the vicissitudes of the marketplace.
>I am not anti-market. I do think it is a fairly efficent economic system, >certainly more efficient than communism, but it does need to be regulated. >All human activities need policing. Take sport, do you know of a game where >an umpire or referee is not used. The operative word there is "game", Alastair. An economy isn't a game, it's a system, like an organic system. Sure there are rules that govern the system, and it is up to some artifice to make sure that the rules are followed, but they have to be simple rules that work in concert with the system with a minimum of barriers. Those barriers cause unintended consequences that have to be dealt with elsewhere.
What rules? Well, rules that essentially protect the rights of those within that system, as both producers and consumers. Rules against fraud, rules against theft, rules against causing palpable harm. The rules should extend from that precept.
But what about rules that only tangentially relate to that precept? Take Maryland, for instance. Maryland's legislature passed a law restricting certain products that were not, in their estimation, energy efficient.
Is that really the role of a governing force in a marketplace?
>> Do you want examples? >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >is whether companies are made to follow the law, and laws are made >for companies. And even the most ardent free-marketeer recognizes that there need to be basic rules to govern the practices within that economy. You're like those people who claim that libertarians are anarchists, without examining the realities of libertarian beliefs: government serves a limited purpose - to preserve and protect individual rights. This holds true for the political system, as well as the economic one.
>Here is a good example of how free enterprise works. The ferries >between Britain and the continent were deregulated, so they started [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Free Enterprise ferry disaster. >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2827229.stm Negligence is negligence is negligence is negligence. Let me ask you this, Alastair - if there is no regulation governing a particular action, should someone therefore have no responsibility to redress a harm if a harm is caused by that action?
See, what I'm getting at is that you don't necessarily need a "regulation" to address every form of negligent act, and if you bury businesses under regulations, it has the potential to give businesses an "out" (ie, there was no regulation governing it, therefore we can't be held responsible).
>Regulations are needed, and no where more than in the case >of carbon dioxide emissions, which have a global, not just >national, effect. A) You can harness the power of the marketplace to reduce CO2 emissions, if there is an important public purpose in doing so. You don't need a new regulatory state, certainly not one on a global scale as would be required. National environmental bureaucracies are unwieldy and burdensome enough - a global environmental regulatory bureaucracy would be an intactible bohemoth;
I've written a number of items on the use of market forces to produce environmental benefits across national boundaries, generally through the use of guilds and guild seals of approval.
B) Furthermore, not only can you not hamstring nations by creating massive regulatory schemes on unsettled science (without proper risk assessment and cost-benefit analyses), but you also cannot make choices for nations that may not be advanced as yours, either politically, socially, or economically. It's immoral and elitist to hobble developing nations that cannot afford to make the same social policy choices that the developed world can when it comes to the environment.
- Andrew Langer
Any posts by Andrew Langer are his own, written by him, for his own enjoyment (and the education of others). Unless expressly stated, they represent his own views, and not those of any other individuals or entities. He is not, nor has he ever been, paid to post here.
Vendicar Decarian - 18 Jan 2004 17:07 GMT > Regulations are needed, and no where more than in the case > of carbon dioxide emissions, which have a global, not just > national, effect. THE INDEPENDENT PORTFOLIO - CLICK HERE
Blood on the virtual carpet: tempers flare as 'editor' is thrown out of online town with 80,000 inhabitants By Andrew Gumbel in Los Angeles
16 January 2004
Peter Ludlow is not just a computer gaming enthusiast. He's also a philosophy professor, with an abiding interest in the relationship between the real and the virtual worlds. So when the world's most successful virtual-reality game, the Sims, launched an online version just over a year ago, he didn't just join in for fun; he also decided that he could carry out research for his next book.
And that was where the trouble started. Alphaville, the game's fictional city, could have gone in any number of directions, depending on the arbitrary decisions of the online game players who make up its people through their chosen "avatars", or game characters.
Alphaville could have become a socialist utopia, a grand experiment in free-market capitalism or simply a reflection of the allure and the pitfalls of any real Western city.
As it was, Alphaville quickly turned into a hellhole of scam-artists, crime syndicates, mafia extortion artists and teenage girls turning tricks to make ends meet. It became a breeding ground for the very worst in human nature - a benign-sounding granny, for example, who specialised in taking new players into her confidence, then showered them in abuse. Then there was the scam-artist known as Evangeline, who started out equally friendly and then stole new players' money.
Professor Ludlow, who teaches at the University of Michigan, decided he would chronicle Alphaville's seamy reality by setting up a newspaper,The Alphaville Herald, run by his game alter-ego. He reported on the scams and the prostitution rings, and also interviewed the protagonists.
(Evangeline, his most intriguing source, turned out, in real life, to be a spectacularly warped teenage boy.)
But that was before his dispassionate academic inquiry ran smack into the authoritarian brick wall of the game's manufacturer and controller, the California gaming company Electronic Arts.
The Alphaville Herald was closed down and Professor Ludlow's avatar, Urizenus, was kicked out of town. "While we regret it," Electronic Arts told him in a letter, "we feel it is necessary for the good of the game and its community."
Officially, the reason for Professor Ludlow's expulsion was that he included links in his inside-the-game newspaper to outside websites, including one that gave players instructions on how to cheat. What Professor Ludlow and a growing band of academics and sympathisers believe, however, is that his efforts to publicise the tawdry fantasy activities of real-life teenagers were becoming simply too uncomfortable for Electronic Arts to stomach.
The company wants to draw the maximum number of players to the Sims Online, one of a growing number of interactive computer games attracting audiences possibly hundreds of thousands of people. Such is the interest in the phenomenon that the Sims Online game is to be featured in a California exhibition, opening today, which will feature a real-life recreation of a room from the game.
The game is rated "T" for teenager and is sold, according to the marketing materials, as a "fun-filled" exercise in fantasy projection. Publicity highlighting the very dark place that Alphaville had become was not likely to be good for business, and could even get the company into trouble over its rating.
Shortly before he was thrown out of Alphaville, Urizenus and his fellow reporters were openly questioning whether teenage game players should be allowed to trade in human flesh, albeit virtual flesh, and wondering whether the Sims Online should be restricted to adults.
Professor Ludlow's expulsion was only the beginning of a fascinating new phase in the game. Electronic Arts, through its online game controller, Maxis, has been cracking down on bad behaviour to clean up Alphaville and, one assumes, try and boost its audience which is stuck at a 80,000 (EA had hoped for a million by now). Evangeline and the psycho-granny have been disciplined, as have various mafia syndicates and a parallel city government set up as a player-based alternative form of authority.
You could compare it to Mussolini's crackdown on the Sicilian Mafia, or even to President George Bush's war on terror. The academics are having a field day as they see real-life issues of power and control played out in cyberspace. The very premise of an online game is that it is uncontrollable - indeed, even the banned players have found ways to sneak back in various disguises.
That, in turn, presents a thorny set of philosophical problems. How do you seek to curb the baser instincts of a community of autonomous players? Is repression the answer? Or do you have to give people incentives to behave better all by themselves? Such questions have been pondered even within the august confines of Yale Law School, where one student, James Grimmelmann, wrote recently: "On the one hand, Maxis is close to losing control over their game world. TSO is a positively Brechtian world of violence, flim-flammery, and low-down dirty tricks.
"On the other hand, Maxis acts like a classic despot, using its powers to single out individual critics for the dungeons and the firing squads. The usual real-world justification for this kind of arbitrary action is the need for a strong central hand to protect public safety and common welfare. But since Maxis isn't all that good at those aspects, the Herald censorship smacks more of tyranny for its own sake."
You can draw your own conclusions about how this relates to the politics of the real world, but the parallels are there.
Tim Jackson - 16 Jan 2004 08:43 GMT > Gee, does every anti-marketeer have the same blind spot? How many times do I > have to tell you guys that if a business doesn't do right by the public, then it > _GOES OUT OF BUSINESS_. People don't buy products from those who are going to > harm them. > > Do you want examples? Microsoft. Please make an example of Microsoft! Please!
Tim Jackson
Andrew Langer - 16 Jan 2004 14:57 GMT >> Gee, does every anti-marketeer have the same blind spot? How many times >do I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Microsoft. Please make an example of Microsoft! Please! Has the public really been "harmed" by Microsoft? I mean, we can get into economic arguments about trusts, but when it comes down to it, but in the end, there are a lot of consumers that really like Microsoft products.
- Andrew Langer
Any posts by Andrew Langer are his own, written by him, for his own enjoyment (and the education of others). Unless expressly stated, they represent his own views, and not those of any other individuals or entities. He is not, nor has he ever been, paid to post here.
Tim Jackson - 16 Jan 2004 20:47 GMT > >> Gee, does every anti-marketeer have the same blind spot? How many times > >do I [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > economic arguments about trusts, but when it comes down to it, but in the end, > there are a lot of consumers that really like Microsoft products. This is normal for a monopoly. It doesn't make it or its products good.
But I'm not going to get drawn into a technical discussion about software design on these newsgroups.
Tim
Vendicar Decarian - 18 Jan 2004 18:14 GMT > This is normal for a monopoly. It doesn't make it or its products good. Microsoft is hated in part because it produces somewhat polished pieces of dung.
Ignorant of the fact that they are purchaing dung, an ignorant public purchases the little boubles and marvels at their good fortune.
Myrl - 17 Jan 2004 01:39 GMT Andy, I must admit, I'm a Microsoft/Bill Gates devotee. Before Microsoft and Windows, civilization as we know it today, lurked in the dark ages. IBM had a strangle hold on computer technology, and the common man didn't have access to it. Along comes Bill Gates, and Microsoft Windows, and for an affordable cost, computers can be put into many homes, libraries, schools, and access given to kids, the elderly, the handicapped, the poor, the middle class, and the rich, all via the internet, and easy to use applications. It is an awesome empowerment of mankind when you stop to think about it.
I never quite understood what the gripe was that the competitors had, other than Microsoft when packaging Windows, used their own Internet Explorer as the browser. Business is business in America, it's all about competition. No business would freely give away advantage, or technology to it's competitors.
I feel in this universe, throughout the ages, there have been a "few" benevolent Gods. . .I believe that Bill Gates is one of 'em!
If you think Microsoft isn't better than IBM, try giving up Outlook and using Lotus Notes for awhile. . .IBM Lotus Notes, is 1960s technology. They are so far behind, that I doubt they will ever catch up!
Myrl
> > >> Gee, does every anti-marketeer have the same blind spot? How many times [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > they represent his own views, and not those of any other individuals > or entities. He is not, nor has he ever been, paid to post here. Tim Jackson - 17 Jan 2004 10:28 GMT > Andy, > I must admit, I'm a Microsoft/Bill Gates devotee. Before Microsoft [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > internet, and easy to use applications. It is an awesome empowerment > of mankind when you stop to think about it. Bill Gates didn't do that, Apple did. I remember, I was in the business at the time.
Quick history lesson. IBM, crown prince of the mainframe, ignored the rise of personal computing until it was almost too late. Seeing the writing on the wall (and it was Apple shaped, with a bite out) the only way to get back into the market and ahead of Apple was to throw their design open to third-world manufacturers to build compatibles. They needed an operating system quickly. Forward Bill Gates, owner (but not author - he got it in a garage sale or something) of QDOS, Quick & Dirty Operating System (honestly, it was). Bill Gates milked the IBM whirlwind and got rich.
Windows never made computers a cent cheaper, and Microsoft never made PCs at all. So the low price of PC's has nothing to do with Microsoft and everything to do with IBM's 1 Big Mistake.
Tim Jackson
Ilena - 17 Jan 2004 22:08 GMT "Tim Jackson" <tim@tim-jackson.co.uk>
> Quick history lesson. IBM, crown prince of the mainframe, ignored the rise > of personal computing until it was almost too late. Seeing the writing on [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > garage sale or something) of QDOS, Quick & Dirty Operating System (honestly, > it was). Bill Gates milked the IBM whirlwind and got rich. There's a very telling moment in the film "Pirates of Silicon Valley" (I believe that's the name) when Gates is negotiating with IBM ...
Right before he left ... the software rights were brought up ... Gates of course wanted them ... IBM nodded and waved him away with something like, "Sure ... all of the profits are in the hardware anyway" (my recollection from a few years ago) ...
Tim Jackson - 18 Jan 2004 01:36 GMT > "Tim Jackson" <tim@tim-jackson.co.uk> > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > like, "Sure ... all of the profits are in the hardware anyway" (my > recollection from a few years ago) ... Yes, they'd totally lost the plot, they were so confident that the future lay in mainframes and centralisation. They followed the steam engine analogy - once we had little steam engines in every factory and now we (UK) have a few dozen huge ones in power stations powering the whole country. What was missing from that scenario is that Apple and others were busy going around building the equivalent of diesel engines, and no-one was building the "power grid" comms network that the IBM concept needed. Our big mainframes were being strangled by lack of bandwidth, and our remote users were buying desktops just to buffer the comms.
Tim
Vendicar Decarian - 18 Jan 2004 18:10 GMT > I never quite understood what the gripe was that the competitors had, > other than Microsoft when packaging Windows, used their own Internet > Explorer as the browser. Business is business in America, it's all > about competition. No business would freely give away advantage, or > technology to it's competitors. DOS isn't done, till Lotus won't run....
A pattern of dishonest and disreputable behaviour that Microsoft follows to this day.
Ilena - 18 Jan 2004 16:41 GMT Andrew Langer<Langrrr@aol.com>
How many times do I
> have to tell you guys that if a business doesn't do right by the public, then it > _GOES OUT OF BUSINESS_. People don't buy products from those who are going to > harm them. Hmmm ... sounds like Andy learned his PR lessons very well ...
Unfortunately ... that is amongst his most ridiculous ever statements.
I will address just the breast implant issue ... one I've spent over 8 years studying ...
Andy has ad hommed me an "ignoramus" regarding my beliefs on this controversial issue ... one that the Junk Science Campaign is now spinning like a top because of Inamed's recent failure to get "safety" approval for their potentially very dangerous silicone gel implants.
In another part of this thread ... Andy talks about "fraud" ... again Inamed comes to mind. Here are links to their security fraud ...
http://www.sec.gov/litigation/litreleases/lr16466.htm http://www.sec.gov/litigation/admin/34-41751.htm
Over 40,000 women received a paltry sum for the injuries from implant complications and failures ...
Are they _OUT OF BUSINESS_ ?
By no means ... far, far from it.
Andy's Theory #1 shot.
~~~~~~~~~
Let's talk about Dow Corning?
Now in their 9th year of so called "bankruptcy protection" ... they were convicted of fraud ... for lying to their customers claiming that implants "would last a lifetime" etc. etc.in the Mariann Hopkins case.
Papa Dow Chemical lost to Charlotte Mahlum in Nevada a few years ago ...
Are Papa or Baby Dow _OUT OF BUSINESS_ ?
LOL ... not even close.
in fact, these years have enabled Dow Corning to position itself more strongly in the silicone world ... and have expanded into many silicone related, non breast implant areas ... as well as others.
Andy's Theory #1 shot yet again?
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Is there a "closed" sign on Bristol Myers headquarters?
Nope.
Sorry, Andy,#1 shot down yet again.
~~~~~~~~~
Andy's Junk Science Speak:
People don't buy products from those who are going to
> harm them. ~~~~~~~~
Uhhhhhhh ... yes they do ... usually thru agents (plastic surgeons etc.) of the makers ...
Outside of the silicone issue ... there are many, many examples ...
People may have been convinced that the implants they are buying is not going to harm them ... but when the infections set in, when the implants rupture ... the products have already been bought ...
Andy's Theory #2 shot.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PS's regularly underestimate and minimize the risks from breast implants ... and with Inamed's recent loss ... their PR teams seem to be working double time.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.BreastImplantAwareness.org
Vendicar Decarian - 18 Jan 2004 21:34 GMT > > How many times do I > > have to tell you guys that if a business doesn't do right by the public, then it > > _GOES OUT OF BUSINESS_. And thus by definition, any business that has not gone out of business must be doing right by the public.
The author of that statement proves that either is either so ignorant that he will purchase any snake oil from any pigopolist, or more probably he is in the business of selling some form of snake oil himself.
> > People don't buy products from those who are going to > > harm them. Everyone who smokes, owns a gun, loves their car, or believes a single statment coming from the current White House or any NeoCon thinktank.
Andrew Langer - 20 Jan 2004 02:44 GMT >> > How many times do I >> > have to tell you guys that if a business doesn't do right by the public, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > And thus by definition, any business that has not gone out of business >must be doing right by the public. Or if it isn't, it will be in grave danger of doing so.
> The author of that statement proves that either is either so ignorant that >he will purchase any snake oil from any pigopolist, or more probably he is >in the business of selling some form of snake oil himself. And the author of that statement is someone so cowardly that he refuses to post under his own name, or a crazed loon who has been demonstrated to be an ignorant liar, an apologist for one of the greatest mass murderers of the 20th century, and one of Usenet's greatest living trolls.
You wanna insult me, Scottie? Be man enough to do it using your own name. Hiding behind this bizarre pseudonymous personae is beneath you. After all, a narcissist like yourself always liked getting credit for your own misdeeds...
>> > People don't buy products from those who are going to >> > harm them. > > Everyone who smokes, owns a gun, loves their car, or believes a single >statment coming from the current White House or any NeoCon thinktank. People are rational enough to assess risks themselves and make choices for themselves. They don't need elitist narcissists like Scott Nudds, er, excuse me, "Vendicar Decarian" to do their thinking for them.
- Andrew Langer
Any posts by Andrew Langer are his own, written by him, for his own enjoyment (and the education of others). Unless expressly stated, they represent his own views, and not those of any other individuals or entities. He is not, nor has he ever been, paid to post here.
User123 - 20 Jan 2004 17:25 GMT Yes please, give us credit to make our own informed choices. We can't stop living afraid to do anything. We know that implants was a very wrong choice and maybe many other things, but is it not up to us to make our own decisions from now on. They may be right they may be wrong, Thank God we have the freedm to make our own choices before they are taken away from us. Unles;
The choices we know are morally wrong? did I spell that right, bare with me.
The choice a parent may make take to thump their kids on the heads just for the heck of it when they walk by, I have sen this I hate it.
Choices of abusing chldren of course, of abusing women, abusing husbands, children abusing parents, cildren abusing elder parents, elder parents laying gult trips on their chldren.
I'm leaving this open, hoping others will add to this list. My mind is foggy and my arms are weak or I would try some more even. bad day. But I know that thers have an opinion on bad and good choices.
I almost forgot the best Choice. To Love our Lord wth all our heart and soul and all our might.
Love and Hugs God Bless Kay
> >> > How many times do I > >> > have to tell you guys that if a business doesn't do right by the public, [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > they represent his own views, and not those of any other individuals > or entities. He is not, nor has he ever been, paid to post here. Nessa - 18 Jan 2004 21:07 GMT I disagree that Breast Cancer does not affect women over 60....My husband just lost 2 family members to Breast Cancer....One was 84 and the other was 90. So who ever says that Breast Cancer doesn't affect anyone older than 60 is WRONG! Nessa
> AFAIK breast cancer does not affect women over 60 so a > doctor would be well aware that it is not the main killer of > women, only that it is the main cause of premature death amonst > women, which I am sure was the message intended. > > Cheers, Alastair. Coleah - 18 Jan 2004 23:08 GMT I'd have to agree with you, Nessa!
http://www.tmf.org/poqi/opra.htm
|Breast Cancer According to the American Cancer Society, breast cancer is the second leading cause of cancer-related deaths among women in the U.S. The risk of developing breast cancer increases with age: 85 percent of breast cancers occur in women age 50 and over, and women over age 60 are at even greater risk.
==================
> I disagree that Breast Cancer does not affect women over 60....My > husband just lost 2 family members to Breast Cancer....One was 84 and > the other was 90. So who ever says that Breast Cancer doesn't affect > anyone older than 60 is WRONG! > Nessa
> > AFAIK breast cancer does not affect women over 60 so a > > doctor would be well aware that it is not the main killer of > > women, only that it is the main cause of premature death amonst > > women, which I am sure was the message intended. > > > > Cheers, Alastair. Ilena - 19 Jan 2004 19:45 GMT Nessa005@yahoo.com (Nessa) wrote in message
> I disagree that Breast Cancer does not affect women over 60....My > husband just lost 2 family members to Breast Cancer....One was 84 and > the other was 90. So who ever says that Breast Cancer doesn't affect > anyone older than 60 is WRONG! > Nessa Have to agree with you strongly, Nessa ... think someone was just misinformed on that.
I'm going to look up the ages at diagnosis if I can find them ...
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www.BreastImplantAwareness.org
Tim Jackson - 19 Jan 2004 21:57 GMT > Nessa005@yahoo.com (Nessa) wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I'm going to look up the ages at diagnosis if I can find them ... If you look in another branch of this thread you'll see that on 14 Jan I posted a (US) table of diagnosis by age.
It clearly shows that bc rate increases with age, levelling off at around 75, and that the statement mentioned above was a misconception.
Tim Jackson
Lance Hill - 13 Jan 2004 02:07 GMT >> Cosmetic chemicals found in breast tumours >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> development of breast cancers. The preservatives are used in many >> cosmetics and some foods to increase their shelf-life. I wouldn't worry about it yet.
The researchers had a hard time measuring relative paragen levels, mostly due to the ubiquitous nature of parabens. Even their blanks, which are supposed to contain no parabens and are run the same time as tissue samples, tested out with high paraben levels - 20% to 110% of the paraben levels in the tissue samples.
I plotted the data and there's a statistically significant trend (P=0.0006) that higher blank paraben levels go with higher level tissue paraben levels. To me this suggests the paraben in any of the samples may come from previous tissue handling or handling in the lab itself.
The researchers suggest that their procedure needs some modifications (see below) for any future studies.
Lance *****
Journal of Applied Toxicology v24;5-13 Concentration of Parabens in Human Breast Tumors Darbre et al
"The reasons for the analytical blank values for parabens in these studies have not been identified definitively but probably relate to the ubiquitous use of parabens as preservatives even in laboratory detergents and personal care products of the operators. Analogous problems have been encountered with the measurement of phthalate esters because of their common use as plasticizers and their ubiquitous dispersal as impurities in solvents, water, glassware and many items of clinical and analytical laboratory equipment (Lopez-Aviva et al., 1990; Leung & Giang, 1993;Colon et al., 2000). More recent work in these laboratories (unpublished) has shown that immersion of all glassware in 1.0 M aqueous sodium hydroxide, followed by copious rinsing with double-distilled water, prior to use of this glassware in tissue extraction greatly reduces the blank values of paraben concentrations as measured by HPLCMS/MS. This addition to the analytical procedure is therefore recommended for use in further studies on paraben concentrations in tissues."
Anthony - 12 Jan 2004 21:29 GMT > Cosmetic chemicals found in breast tumours Men and women both use deodorants, probably in more or less equal numbers, yet breast cancer in men is rare. Wonder why that should be.
Mark ProbertJanuary 12, 2004 - 12 Jan 2004 21:41 GMT > > Cosmetic chemicals found in breast tumours > > > Men and women both use deodorants, probably in more or less equal numbers, > yet breast cancer in men is rare. Wonder why that should be. It could be for several reasons. Without really thinking too hard, the different body chemistry of women, just to name one possible reason.
Anthony - 12 Jan 2004 22:07 GMT > > Men and women both use deodorants, probably in more or less equal numbers, > > yet breast cancer in men is rare. Wonder why that should be. > > It could be for several reasons. Without really thinking too hard, the > different body chemistry of women, just to name one possible reason. Maybe, or maybe deodorants don't cause cancer. Who knows?
Mark ProbertJanuary 12, 2004 - 12 Jan 2004 22:17 GMT > > > Men and women both use deodorants, probably in more or less equal > numbers, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > Maybe, or maybe deodorants don't cause cancer. Who knows? A valid question has been raised, and thus should be answered.
Kaye301 - 12 Jan 2004 22:52 GMT Anthony wrote: << > Maybe, or maybe deodorants don't cause cancer. Who knows?>>
There was breast cancer before deodorants...
su-texas@webtv.net - 13 Jan 2004 00:17 GMT Anthony wrote:
Maybe, or maybe deodorants don't cause cancer. Who knows?
Kaye wrote:
There was breast cancer before deodorants...
Su_Texas writes:
There are many different kinds of breast cancer, & probably many causes, .. some of which might (partly) be, the chemicals in some deoderant & make-up, ... but I wouldn't wait for the govt to confirm it.
How long did it take the govt to officially decide, that smoking & second-hand smoke might be health risks?
Susan, Su_Texas my opinions
Ilena - 13 Jan 2004 16:51 GMT > There are many different kinds of breast cancer, & probably many causes, > .. some of which might (partly) be, the chemicals in some deoderant & [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Susan, Su_Texas my opinions Exactly ... the game is to play "reasonable doubt" until the manufacturers of harmful products figure out how to escape liability.
Breast implants have been on the market for 40 years ... it's only been in the last decade that the government has really looked at the monumental harm done by them.
www.BreastImplantAwareness.org
Kaye301 - 12 Jan 2004 22:50 GMT << Men and women both use deodorants, probably in more or less equal numbers, yet breast cancer in men is rare. Wonder why that should be. >>
And some don't use underarm deodorants. I rarely perspired under my arms for the past 10 years or more, so I didn't need an underarm deodorant. (No, I wasn't fooled--have very good sense of smell--and one of our kids very much needed to use one at a young age).
Warren Ward - 12 Jan 2004 22:31 GMT Some confusion here?
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994555
actually says
"A small survey by New Scientist of three British high street shops and one supermarket found deodorants in each that contained parabens, although most of these products did not. However, many other products used under the arm commonly contained parabens, such as body sprays, hair removal creams and shaving gels. Body lotions, face creams, cleansers and shampoos also frequently contained parabens." .. which is not the same as printed below.
The point I was making (in alt.support.cancer.breast) is that if you add deodorants and antiperspirants together only a small proportion contain parabens, as antiperspirants don't have them, but there are quite a number of deodorants around with them. Checking this evening in a supermarket, some have gone from the shelves but some remain. Some body moisturisers including some labelled "dermatological" have parabens. It is good news if the industry is going to (gradually?) stop including parabens in anything which is designed to remain on the skin.
With best wishes,
Warren
http://www.innatehealth.com
> Cosmetic chemicals found in breast tumours > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Gaia Vince
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