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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Breast Cancer / January 2004

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Cosmetic chemicals found in breast tumours

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Ilena - 12 Jan 2004 16:02 GMT
Cosmetic chemicals found in breast tumours

12:24 12 January 04

NewScientist.com news service
http://www.newscientist.com/news/print.jsp?id=ns99994555

Preservative chemicals found in samples of breast tumours probably
came from underarm deodorants, UK scientists have claimed.

Their analysis of 20 breast tumours found high concentrations of
para-hydroxybenzoic acids (parabens) in 18 samples. Parabens can mimic
the hormone estrogen, which is known to play a role in the development
of breast cancers. The preservatives are used in many cosmetics and
some foods to increase their shelf-life.

"From this research it is not possible to say whether parabens
actually caused these tumours, but they may certainly be associated
with the overall rise in breast cancer cases," says Philip Harvey, an
editor of the Journal of Applied Toxicology, which published the
research.

"Given that breast cancer is the largest killer of women and a very
high percentage of young women use underarm deodorants, I think we
should be carrying out properly funded, further investigations into
parabens and where they are found in the body," Harvey told New
Scientist.

Chemical cousins

The new research was led by molecular biologist Philippa Darbre, at
the University of Reading. She says that the ester-bearing form of
parabens found in the tumours indicates it came from something applied
to the skin, such as an underarm deodorant, cream or body spray. When
parabens are eaten, they are metabolised and lose the ester group,
making them less strongly estrogen-mimicking.
"One would expect tumours to occur evenly, with 20 per cent arising in
each of the five areas of the breast," Darbre told New Scientist. "But
these results help explain why up to 60 per cent of all breast tumours
are found in just one-fifth of the breast - the upper-outer quadrant,
nearest the underarm."
However, Chris Flower, director general of the Cosmetic, Toiletry and
Perfumery Association, challenged the study's findings. "There are
almost no deodorants and body sprays that contain parabens," he says.
"Although they are in most other creams and cosmetics, the safety
margin is huge and they would not have any effect on enhancing growth
of new tumours."
Darbre replies that deodorants and antiperspirants have only stopped
containing parabens in the last few months and that the tumours she
studied occurred prior to this.
None of the deodorants on sale in two British high street shops
contained any parabens, a survey by New Scientist confirmed. However,
many other products including body lotions, face creams, cleansers and
shampoos did. Some products contained as many as five different kinds
of parabens.

Skin deep
Previously published studies have shown that parabens are able to be
absorbed through the skin and to bind to the body's
estrogen-receptors, where they can encourage breast cancer cell
growth.
But Flower maintains that the amount of parabens absorbed by the skin
is very low and the parabens are "metabolised by the skin cells to
produce products that have no estrogenic activity".
Darbre's research did not look at the concentrations of parabens in
other areas of the breast or body tissues and Harvey cautions that the
significance of the chemicals in tumour tissue should not be
over-interpreted.
Darbre says she has not used cosmetic products, including underarm
deodorants, for eight years. She recommends that other women do the
same "until their safety can be established".
Journal reference: Journal of Applied Toxicology (vol 24, p5)

Gaia Vince
Tim Worstall - 12 Jan 2004 18:21 GMT
> Cosmetic chemicals found in breast tumours
>  
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> "Given that breast cancer is the largest killer of women

There's one major problem here. It makes the rest of what this guy is
saying extremely suspect : if not complete nonsense.
Breast Cancer is NOT the " largest killer of women ".

Indicators of the Nations Health: Female death rates by selected
causes
England    Rates per 100,000 population  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



  1996  1997  1998  1999*  2000  2001*  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All causes  1,099.4  1,091.2  1,078.5  1082.3  1039.9  1033.9  
                   
All Malignant Neoplasms (ICD 140-208)  248.9  244.8  242.6  245.4
235.9  243.0
  Stomach (ICD 151)  
9.4  9.6  9.2  8.6  7.9  7.9  
  Colon, rectum, rectosigmoid junction & anus (ICD 153-4)  
28.7  27.6  26.9  26.9  24.9  24.7  
  Pancreas (ICD 157)  
11.4  11.2  11.1  11.6  11.4  11.7  
  Lung (ICD 162)  
41.8  40.8  41.6  41.4  40.8  41.4  
  Breast (ICD 174)  
45.9  45.0  43.8  44.2  42.0  43.0  
  Uterus (ICD 179-82)  
9.9  9.4  9.1  4.1  9.0  3.7  
Diabetes mellitus (ICD 250)  11.9  11.7  11.5  12.1  11.3  11.8  
All circulatory diseases (ICD 390-459)  464.9  445.9  439.0  439.8
396.2  409.5
  Ischaemic heart disease (ICD 410-14)  
220.0  208.5  203.9  192.6  178.4  175.0  
  Cerebrovascular disease (ICD 430-8)  
141.3  135.3  134.1  143.4  121.8  134.9  
Pneumonia (ICD 480-6)  124.5  130.7  122.8  85.5  126.2  72.4  
Bronchitis and allied conditions (ICD 490-6)  43.0  44.0  43.3  42.5
42.8  38.9
Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis (ICD 571)  5.7  6.2  6.3  6.9  6.8
7.2
All accidents & adverse effects (ICD E800-E949)  16.6  17.0  16.1
16.4  17.2  17.6
  Road vehicle accidents (ICD E810-29)  
3.5  3.4  3.3  3.2  3.2  2.9  
Suicide (ICD E950-9, E980-9 excluding E988.8)  4.8  4.7  4.8  3.1  4.9
2.8

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My apologies for the table not coming out neatly.
But as you can see breast cancer is 1 /5 th of all cancer deaths, just
over 1/5 th of heart disease, and 1/3 the level of strokes.
Hell, at 43 deaths per 100,000 it's still less than pneumonia.

Ilena, can't you try and read these things before you post them ?

The above table, by the way, if from the UK dept of health at :

http://www.doh.gov.uk/HPSSS/TBL_A4.HTM

Tim Worstall

and a very
> high percentage of young women use underarm deodorants, I think we
> should be carrying out properly funded, further investigations into
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
>  
> Gaia Vince
su-texas@webtv.net - 12 Jan 2004 19:32 GMT
There's one major problem here. It makes the rest of what this guy is
saying extremely suspect : if not complete nonsense. Breast Cancer is
NOT the " largest killer of women ".

==========

There are probably some errors, in everything that's written.

You go through articles, ... pick out the important-looking parts, & the
names of research projects & researchers, ... then read more about them,
& ask questions.

Susan, Su_Texas  my opinions

PS  After I was badly injured in Jan 1998, I started having bad
reactions to underarm deodorants & antiperspirants.  

I switched to using baking soda & cornstarch.  Then, switched from that
to using rubbing alcohol.

Recently, I read that chemicals/etc can be absorbed through the skin,
much easier, faster, & in larger quantities, than medications taken
orally.

So, it might be important Not to put those substances (which could harm
you) on your skin.
Ilena - 12 Jan 2004 21:51 GMT
tcw@2xtreme.net (Tim Worstall)

> There's one major problem here. It makes the rest of what this guy is
> saying extremely suspect : if not complete nonsense.

One error in a reporter's story does NOT make it complete nonsense ...

No one is saying this is definitive ... science unfolds ... try this
version by the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3383393.stm

Concern over deodorant chemicals


The chemicals were found in breast cancer tumours
Chemicals from underarm deodorants and other cosmetics can build up
inside the body, according to a study.
British researchers have found traces of chemicals called parabens in
tissue taken from women with breast cancer.

While there is no evidence they cause cancer, the scientists have
called for the use of parabens to be reviewed.

The cosmetics industry insists the chemicals, which are used as
preservatives and are approved for use by regulators, are safe.

Dr Philippa Darbre and colleagues at the University of Reading carried
out tests on samples of 20 different human breast tumours.

Writing in the Journal of Applied Toxicology, they say they found
traces of parabens in every sample.

 Parabens have a very, very good safety profile

Chris Flower,
Cosmetic Toiletry & Perfumery Association  
Their tests suggested the chemicals had seeped into the tissue after
being applied to the skin.

"This is the first study to show their accumulation in human tissues,"
said Dr Darbre.

"It demonstrates that if people are exposed to these chemicals, then
the chemicals will accumulate in their bodies."

'Drive tumours'

Dr Darbre said there may be reason for people to be concerned about
the findings.

"Their detection in human breast tumours is of concern since parabens
have been shown to be able to mimic the action of the female hormone
oestrogen," she said.

"Oestrogen can drive the growth of human breast tumours. It would
therefore seem especially prudent to consider whether parabens should
continue to be used in such a wide range of cosmetics applied to the
breast area including deodorants."

Dr Philip Harvey, European editor of the journal, said the findings
should be interpreted cautiously.

"Further work is required to examine any association between
oestrogenic and other chemicals in underarm cosmetics and breast
cancer."

 We have an enormous amount of information which supports the safety
of these chemicals and their use in cosmetics

Chris Flower
Cosmetic Toiletry & Perfumery Association  

Chris Flower, director general of the UK's Cosmetic Toiletry &
Perfumery Association, welcomed the study.

"It is welcome additional information and we will want to examine the
findings in detail," he told BBC News Online.

"However, parabens have a very, very good safety profile. We have an
enormous amount of information which supports the safety of these
chemicals and their use in cosmetics."

Caution

Delyth Morgan of Breakthrough Breast Cancer said: "This extremely
small study does not demonstrate a direct causal link between
deodorant or antiperspirant use and developing breast cancer.

"Further research is needed to establish the source of the chemicals
found in the breast tumour samples and what, if any, the relationship
is to breast cancer."

A spokesman for the UK's Department of Trade and Industry said
government scientists would examine the findings.

"Parabens are approved for use in the UK and in Europe and all the
information we have suggests they are safe to use.

"However, British scientists will examine this study."

Dr Richard Sullivan, head of clinical programmes at Cancer Research
UK, said there was no evidence that deodorants were linked to an
increased risk of breast cancer.

He said the latest study was very small, and had by no means produced
conclusive results.

"The increased incidence we are seeing of breast cancer can be
explained by many other factors," he said.
Lisasbucc - 13 Jan 2004 13:04 GMT
> samples of 20 different human breast tumours.

That's a pretty small sample on which to base a firedrill.  I'll refrain
judgement until a satisfactory study has been done.

...lisa (who has never had to use deodorant but had breast cancer anyway)
Kaye301 - 20 Jan 2004 14:58 GMT
Lisa wrote: << That's a pretty small sample on which to base a firedrill.  I'll
refrain
judgement until a satisfactory study has been done.

...lisa (who has never had to use deodorant but had breast cancer anyway)>>

Agree and am coming from same perspective.
As far as increased incidence of breast cancer, particularly in selected more
affluent communities in  California, I think it would be interesting to do a
study to see if there is greater use of bottled water which is stored in
plastic bottles.  About 8 years ago, while researching early pubertal
development, I came across studies which linked possibiity of such to food
stored in plastic containers which had propensity to result in increased
estrogen levels for consumers of such.  I saw a red flag--because of what I did
only with our youngest, who happened to have this 'problem.'  I nursed all 3 of
my kids exclusively until 6 mos. of age.  I did something differently with our
youngest than I did with the others.  I went back to work earlier but made sure
she had breast milk by nursing one side and pumping the other.  I stored the
milk in plastic playtex nursers and then when it was time to feed--just nuked
them.  I did this way past age it was needed.  She never had cows milk as young
child -- at least in a bottle -- only breast milk and she stopped nursing at 21
mos, although am not sure I was still pumping for the last few mos.
One of the reasons I nursed my kids as long as I did was that I hoped that it
would add further protection for me against breast cancer along with being
'healthier' for them.  It didn't work.
Anyway, I know that in some of the more affluent California communities more of
the women belong to gyms or are involved in outdoor sports where they would
take extra water along.
Interestingly, it takes about 8 ot 10 years for breast cancer to be detected
after it first starts, on the average.  That is about the time frame that I got
dx'd with b.c. and when the bottled water companies switched from glass to
plastic bottles.  We use Arrowhead--and got it because of the fluoridated
water.  I don't believe the flouridated water had anything to do with it, but I
am not so sure about the plastic bottles.  Again, if one does research on
increase in estrogen levels, there does appear to be an association between
such and at the least cooking and possibly of storage and/or cooking of food in
plastic containers.
Glenfiddich - 20 Jan 2004 20:22 GMT
>Lisa wrote: << That's a pretty small sample on which to base a firedrill.  I'll
>refrain
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>study to see if there is greater use of bottled water which is stored in
>plastic bottles.  

I think you're onto something - medical research has found
statistically significant amounts of water in ALL tumors.
There's a consiracy to keep this from us - when was the last time you
saw its water content mentioned in a lab report on a tumor?

Seriously, though  -  the biological effects of volatile plasticisers
used in commercial plastic products seems to have attracted little
research effort.
Kaye301 - 22 Jan 2004 02:41 GMT
Glenfiddich wrote: << Seriously, though  -  the biological effects of volatile
plasticisers
used in commercial plastic products seems to have attracted little
research effort.

I thought there was some research going on in this area.  I am not certain how
carcinogenic plastics are, per se, but they may directly do something that
affects hormones and results in overproduction of some type(s) of estrogens.
Kaye301 - 22 Jan 2004 02:46 GMT
There's an interesting article--or at least one that is related:
http://www.worldandi.com/public/2001/October/ee.html
If of interest, you can do web search re. such...
I learned about plastic and estrogens in relation to possible contributing
factor to earlier pubertal development.
Alastair McDonald - 12 Jan 2004 23:03 GMT
> > Cosmetic chemicals found in breast tumours
> >
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> saying extremely suspect : if not complete nonsense.
> Breast Cancer is NOT the " largest killer of women ".

That would be true if the New Scientist's report is accurate. If you had
read a little further you would have seen that what was meant was that
Breast Cancer is the largest killer of YOUNG women.

"Given that breast cancer is the largest killer of women and a very
high percentage of young women use underarm deodorants, I think we
should be carrying out properly funded, further investigations into
parabens and where they are found in the body," Harvey told New
Scientist.

Snip of statistics that would make Lomborg feel proud.

> Ilena, can't you try and read these things before you post them ?

Perhaps you should have read a bit further before you snipped
Ilena's post!

Cheers, Alastair.
Tim Worstall - 13 Jan 2004 08:30 GMT
> > ilena@san.rr.com (Ilena) wrote in message
>  news:<19faaec.0401120802.495b0a9a@posting.google.com>...
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> read a little further you would have seen that what was meant was that
> Breast Cancer is the largest killer of YOUNG women.

Sorry, where does it say that breast cancer is the biggest killer of
young women ? It says that " breast cancer is the largest killer of
women " and then " a very high percentage of young women use underarm
deodorants ".
It does not say or imply that breast cancer is the largest killer of
young women . You've just made that up.

Tim Worstall

> "Given that breast cancer is the largest killer of women and a very
> high percentage of young women use underarm deodorants, I think we
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Cheers, Alastair.
FerdiEgb - 13 Jan 2004 19:11 GMT
To all,

As usual, one need to be cautious about results like from this
research. The fact that one finds chemicals at places where tumors
are, doesn't give any answer on the cause-and-effect point.

Some years ago, one did find a "link" between DDT methabolites and
breast cancer, with the same arguments as this one. But a much larger
study, which compared DDT levels of nurses which had their blood
extracted years before the onset of breast cancer with that of nurses
who didn't catch breast cancer, found no difference in average DDT
levels of the old blood samples.

The point is that, as cancer is a very demanding disease, cancer
patients burn their fat at a much higher rate. As DDT (and probably
parabens in this case) is highly fat soluble, any amount of DDT will
redistribute over the remaining fat, including breast fat, thus
causing elevated levels per gram fat.

Just my opinion...

Ferdinand
Alastair McDonald - 14 Jan 2004 12:17 GMT
> To all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Ferdinand

Hi Ferdi,

I am not arguing that deodarants cause breast cancer, though both
my sister in law and her daughter have suffered from it, and they
are not sloppy when it comes to personal hygeine.

It seems strange to me that a woman in her fifties and her daughter
in her twenties should get cancer within a few years of each other,
even if it is hereditary. One would not expect a young woman in
her twenties to get that disease.  Perhaps this is why I feel that
the doctor meant to say, or was misreported, that breast cancer
is the biggest killer amongst YOUNG women.

AFAIK breast cancer does not affect women over 60 so a
doctor would be well aware that it is not the main killer of
women, only that it is the main cause of premature death amonst
women, which I am sure was the message intended.

Cheers, Alastair.
Lisasbucc - 14 Jan 2004 15:31 GMT
Alastair wrote:

>AFAIK breast cancer does not affect women over 60

Sure it does.  A woman can be diagnosed with breast cancer at ANY age.  My
mother, in fact, got yer diagnosis at 63.  Where did you get that information?

...lisa
Tim Jackson - 14 Jan 2004 19:58 GMT
> AFAIK breast cancer does not affect women over 60 so a
> doctor would be well aware that it is not the main killer of
> women, only that it is the main cause of premature death amonst
> women, which I am sure was the message intended.

This is not true.
Breast cancer diagnoses per 100,000 population per year, by age group ( US
SEER 1992-7)
00-04   0.00
05-09   0.00
10-14   0.03
15-19   0.15
20-24   1.57
25-29   8.28
30-34  26.69
35-39  66.13
40-44 140.86
45-49 241.00
50-54 313.87
55-59 359.52
60-64 411.48
65-69 465.88
70-74 521.21
75-79 534.25
80-84 508.18
85+    409.72

(With thanks to Lance Hill who gave me the table)

Tim Jackson
Coleah - 14 Jan 2004 20:29 GMT
I found all sorts of 'opinions' about the leading causes of death.  Guess it
depends upon who is reporting it and where:

Leading Causes of Death, Females, United States
http://www.cdc.gov/od/spotlight/nwhw/lcod.htm
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/hearttruth/press/infograph_leadingcauses.pdf
http://www.myhealthspan.com/womenstatisticscauseofdeath.shtm
http://www.cancercontrol.cancer.gov/womenofcolor/pdfs/american_indian-tables.pdf
http://www.fitness2go.net/learning%20center/leading%20cause%20death%20white%20fe
males.htm

http://www3.who.int/whosis/fctc/Submissions/F1350132.pdf
http://www.mercola.com/2003/jan/15/doctors_drugs.htm
http://www.nga.org/center/divisions/1,1188,C_ISSUE_BRIEF%5ED_1915,00.html
http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/news/suicide.html
http://www.thebody.com/cdc/news_updates_archive/2003/feb20_03/latinas_aids.html
http://www.in.gov/isdh/programs/owh/county_databook_2001/part1c2.htm
http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/causes.html?source=DeathClock
http://www.tulsaworld.com/health/Hwomens_causedeath.asp
http://www.curezone.com/forums/m.asp?f=83&i=310

Murder: The Leading Cause of Death for Pregnant Women
http://www.now.org/issues/violence/043003pregnant.html

Suicide leading cause of deaths among new mothers
http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/press/preleases/pr/pr_352.htm

Cancer - leading cause of death among females, down under
http://www.stats.govt.nz/domino/external/web/nzstories.nsf/0/d393a86a4ecc6deacc2
56b180006d772?OpenDocument


Medical Errors Leading Cause of Death
http://womenshealth.about.com/b/a/002077.htm

Autoimmune Disease a Leading Cause of Death in Women
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/4614/51451

Suicide the leading cause of death among young adults in China
http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/2002/E/20023418.html

Africa: Violence Leading cause of death
http://two.pairlist.net/pipermail/contactafrica/2002-December/000284.html

Illegal Abortions Second Leading Cause of Death Among Women in Ethiopian
Hospitals
http://www.ppmarmonte.org/news/viewer.asp?ID=606

Death in Thailand
http://www.canoe.ca/Health0108/31_aids2-ap.html

United Kingdom
http://www.obmed.org/journal/07.pdf

> > AFAIK breast cancer does not affect women over 60 so a
> > doctor would be well aware that it is not the main killer of
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> Tim Jackson
Tim Worstall - 15 Jan 2004 09:02 GMT
> > To all,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> AFAIK breast cancer does not affect women over 60

????
As Tim Jackson shows this is simpy untrue. The incidence of just about
all cancers increase with age. That's where the " explosion in cancer
" comes from : we're all living longer so there's more cancer about.
Age adjusted cancer rates are falling.
Two little markers : If breast cancer did not affect the over 60's,
why then has there been recent concern over HRT ? After all, it is
only ever given to post menopausal women, and yet there are arguments
against it because it raises the risk of breast cancer ( while
reducing many other risks ).
Also, have you noted that fully 50 % of men get prostate cancer ? But
most of us die of something else first ?
The unfortunate truth is that cancer is an inevitable side effect of
the ageing process, and as such is heavily concentrated in those past
reproductive age. Not all that surprising if one takes a Darwinian
view of physiology.

Tim Worstall

so a
> doctor would be well aware that it is not the main killer of
> women, only that it is the main cause of premature death amonst
> women, which I am sure was the message intended.
>
> Cheers, Alastair.
Alastair McDonald - 15 Jan 2004 10:08 GMT
> > > To all,
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> all cancers increase with age. That's where the " explosion in cancer
> " comes from : we're all living longer so there's more cancer about.

Yes, you are and Tim are right about that, However I still believe that
the doctor meant to say that the main cause of premature death in
young women is breast cancer, which could well be triggered by the
use of underarm deoderants.

The fact that the companies who market these products operate in
a "free market" does not make that impossible or excusable. Nor
does the fact that the oil companies, who also operate in a "free
economy", guarantee that their operations will not lead to the
destruction of mankind.

Cheers, Alastair.
serious the
Tim Jackson - 15 Jan 2004 12:30 GMT
> in message news:<bu3bff$87s$2@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> > > AFAIK breast cancer does not affect women over 60
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> young women is breast cancer, which could well be triggered by the
> use of underarm deoderants.

That isn't true either. I think for under 25's, for example road traffic
accidents account for more deaths.
You might be able to find a narrow age band where it was true, but I doubt
it, and the article was not at all specific, and therefore more likely was
just plain old -wrong-.  And the writer (Philip Harvey) is a journalist, not
a doctor.  He is an editor of a medical journal, it is a leap of faith to
assume he is a doctor too.

His point would have been perfectly well made had he said that breast cancer
was a major killer of women, which is true all around the world.  I think
the word "largest" was journalistic hyperbole and nothing else.  I don't
think anyone would argue with his basic premise that the finding that these
compounds are concentrated in parts of the body justifies further research.
Speaking as a one-time scientist (who does not use deodorants) I do not at
all think that this finding alone justifies changing our habits or product
formulations.  It is about as significant as the statistic that in a
particlar population coffee drinkers get less heart disease than tea
drinkers - it shows an association, not a cause.

Tim Jackson
Ilena - 15 Jan 2004 18:22 GMT
"Tim Jackson" <tim@tim-jackson.co.uk>

it shows an association, not a cause.

It was only around 5 years ago that true "causation" was proven with
tobacco and lung cancer ... even tho the association was known for
years ...

That is why the premature and corporate funded "conclusions" on such
matters as breast implant harm are just junk science.

~~~~~~~~

www.BreastImplantAwareness.org
Andrew Langer - 15 Jan 2004 22:05 GMT
>> > "Alastair McDonald" <alastair@abmcdonald.leavethisout.freeserve.co.uk>
>wrote
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>particlar population coffee drinkers get less heart disease than tea
>drinkers - it shows an association, not a cause.

Much of this information, as it pertains to the Unites States, can be found
through the CDC.

According to the CDC, doing a comprehensive search from this site:

http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/leadcaus10.html

We can find the following causes of death for women ages 20-24, in rank order
(as reported thru 2001)

1 - Unintentional Injury (of which traffic deaths are the leaders at 77%, with
poisoning following at a much-distant 11%);

2 - Homicide, of which firearms account for the majority;

3 - Malignant Neoplasms (cancers).  Though not listed here, generally
dermatologic cancers rank higher than breast cancers as primary causes of death.

Rounding out the top five are suicide and heart disease.

For the 25-34 age group, unintentional injuries remain at the top of the list,
but malignant neoplasms jump up to two.  Heart disease jumps up to three, and
homicide drops to 4th.  Suicide follows behind it.

As to the statement that breast cancer is the leading cause of death among
women, the CDC says that is categorically false.  Overall, heart disease is the
number one cause of death.

Hope this helps.

- Andrew Langer

Any posts by Andrew Langer are his own, written by him, for his own
enjoyment (and the education of others).  Unless expressly stated,
they represent his own views, and not those of any other individuals
or entities.  He is not, nor has he ever been, paid to post here.
Alastair McDonald - 16 Jan 2004 00:23 GMT
> Much of this information, as it pertains to the Unites States, can be found
> through the CDC.
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Hope this helps.

Yes it does! I used it to investigate the cause of death of women aged 21 -
60,
all younger than me, but perhaps not what you would describe as young.
However
you would accept that their deaths were premature would you not?

The results were:
1  Malignant Neoplasms  116,237
2  Heart Disease  50,559
3  Unintentional Injury  26,093

If more than half the malignant neoplasms were breast cancer, then breast
cancer would have been the major cause of death in women (aged 21 to 60.)

Cheers, Alastair.
Andrew Langer - 16 Jan 2004 01:38 GMT
>> Much of this information, as it pertains to the Unites States, can be found
>> through the CDC.
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>If more than half the malignant neoplasms were breast cancer, then breast
>cancer would have been the major cause of death in women (aged 21 to 60.)

If...  If?  If my grandmother had wheels she'd be a bus, as the old yiddish
proverb goes.

Lung cancer is the leading cause of cancer deaths among women, Alastair, and has
been since 1987.  Breast cancer follows.  Incidentally, breast cancer was the
leading killer of women before that for 40 years, and I wonder how long
aluminum-based deodorants have been around.

I would venture to guess that womens' aluminum based deodorants weren't marketed
until at least the mid-60s.

Also, as to the aggregate issue of rates of death of women 21-60, it's no
surprise that cancer becomes the leading cause of death.  Cancer rates spike up
after age 40.

Cheers!

- Andrew Langer

Any posts by Andrew Langer are his own, written by him, for his own
enjoyment (and the education of others).  Unless expressly stated,
they represent his own views, and not those of any other individuals
or entities.  He is not, nor has he ever been, paid to post here.
Andrew Langer - 15 Jan 2004 22:19 GMT
>Yes, you are and Tim are right about that, However I still believe that
>the doctor meant to say that the main cause of premature death in
>young women is breast cancer, which could well be triggered by the
>use of underarm deoderants.

That would still be wrong.  The main cause of premature death is not breast
cancer.  It's not even cancer.  Even if it were cancer, it still wouldn't be
breast cancer.

As to the link between underarm deodorants and cancer, for years there have been
various conspiracies regarding deodorants and a number of maladies (alzheimers
comes to mind).  No credible research has ever established a causal connection.

>The fact that the companies who market these products operate in
>a "free market" does not make that impossible or excusable. Nor
>does the fact that the oil companies, who also operate in a "free
>economy", guarantee that their operations will not lead to the
>destruction of mankind.

And it's that kind of a mentality which gives rise to governemental
decisionmaking that is not based on proper risk assessment, and leads to
mis-prioritization of public policies.  The public isn't served by that - and
is, in fact, detrimentally impacted.

Cheers!

- Andrew Langer

Any posts by Andrew Langer are his own, written by him, for his own
enjoyment (and the education of others).  Unless expressly stated,
they represent his own views, and not those of any other individuals
or entities.  He is not, nor has he ever been, paid to post here.
Alastair McDonald - 16 Jan 2004 01:00 GMT
> >Yes, you are and Tim are right about that, However I still believe that
> >the doctor meant to say that the main cause of premature death in
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> cancer.  It's not even cancer.  Even if it were cancer, it still wouldn't be
> breast cancer.

See my other post.

> As to the link between underarm deodorants and cancer, for years there have been
> various conspiracies regarding deodorants and a number of maladies (alzheimers
> comes to mind).  No credible research has ever established a causal connection.

This is not a conspiacy. It is a hypothesis. It should be tested. If
no research has been done, then funds should be provided so
that it can be done. Moreover even if the hypothesis proves false,
other discoveries may be made. For instance, it may be that people
who have a fetish with personal cleanliness are genetically more
prone to breast cancer (highly unlikely IMHO).  Or perhaps it will
be discovered that the aluminium in the deodarants can also
cause alzheimers if it is regularly breathed in!

> >The fact that the companies who market these products operate in
> >a "free market" does not make that impossible or excusable. Nor
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> mis-prioritization of public policies.  The public isn't served by that - and
> is, in fact, detrimentally impacted.

There is another mentality which believes that because capitalism
has brought all the benefits of modern society, therefore it can do
no wrong, It believes that freedom is good, and a "free market" is
perfect. It believes that if industry and commerce were freed from
government restriction then utopia would be achieved.  It ignores
the fact that people have consciences. Companies do not. So
they have to be given rules to live by, just like people. The goal of
companies is to achieve the best for their shareholders, not the
public.  Government must set the rules by which the companies
operate. Government must protect the public from those avaricious
companies, and their directors who exploit their shareholders, given
half a chance.  Enron, the tobacco companies, and now oil and coal
mining industry all come to mind. Perhaps you can think of a few
more?

Cheers, Alastair.
Andrew Langer - 16 Jan 2004 01:54 GMT
>> >Yes, you are and Tim are right about that, However I still believe that
>> >the doctor meant to say that the main cause of premature death in
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>See my other post.

And see mine.  Lung cancer beats breast cancer, and has since 1987.

>> As to the link between underarm deodorants and cancer, for years there have
>been
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>This is not a conspiacy. It is a hypothesis.

Not one that a lot of scientists find credible.

>It should be tested.

Sure.  And I am sure that it has been tested and is being tested and will be
tested.

> If
>no research has been done, then funds should be provided so
>that it can be done.

Why?  Why can't those who are interested in researching the hypothesis find
their own funds?

> Moreover even if the hypothesis proves false,
>other discoveries may be made. For instance, it may be that people
>who have a fetish with personal cleanliness are genetically more
>prone to breast cancer (highly unlikely IMHO).  

Or, how about the possibility that people who have a "fetish" for personal
cleanliness may have some sort of disorder, on the order of OCD?  (As has been
demonstrated.)

>Or perhaps it will
>be discovered that the aluminium in the deodarants can also
>cause alzheimers if it is regularly breathed in!

How about aluminum pots, too, Alastair?

>> >The fact that the companies who market these products operate in
>> >a "free market" does not make that impossible or excusable. Nor
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>has brought all the benefits of modern society, therefore it can do
>no wrong,

There is no perfection, Alastair.  Even the most devout capitalist will tell you
that.  Any system which relies on men to exist is going to be an imperfect one.

It's akin to what Churchill said about democracy.

> It believes that freedom is good,

You don't believe that freedom is good?

> and a "free market" is perfect.

A strawman argument.  It's not that the free market is "perfect", Alastair, it's
that it is democratic, efficient, and promotes prosperity and freedom.

No other economic system does that.  Period.  Communism, by contrast, neither
promotes democracy, efficiency, prosperity, nor freedom.

>It believes that if industry and commerce were freed from
>government restriction then utopia would be achieved.

No, it believes that government restrictions create more problems than
solutions.

>  It ignores
>the fact that people have consciences. Companies do not.

And you ignore the fact that companies are run and staffed by people.  On the
other hand, bureaucracies do _NOT_ have consciences.  They have rules and
regulations and bureaucrats (I'm going to have to remember that the next time I
am speaking to an audience of civil servants).

> So they have to be given rules to live by, just like people. The goal of
> companies is to achieve the best for their shareholders, not the
>public.

Gee, does every anti-marketeer have the same blind spot?  How many times do I
have to tell you guys that if a business doesn't do right by the public, then it
_GOES OUT OF BUSINESS_.  People don't buy products from those who are going to
harm them.

Do you want examples?

Recently, Donald Ferry raised the issue of Wampler Foods and problems with their
poultry products.  On researching that issue, I discovered that upon the
public's discovery of this problem with Wampler, they deserted the company,
driving their profits down by 80% from one quarter to the next.

Conclusion?  Companies that don't do right by the public don't do right by their
shareholders either, because they lose business.

Oh, and in a non-market economy, such businesses can't be punished, generally
because the government running the entity can't efficiently transfer operations
to a competitor.  So much for non-market economies protecting consumers.

>  Government must set the rules by which the companies
>operate. Government must protect the public from those avaricious
>companies, and their directors who exploit their shareholders, given
>half a chance.  Enron, the tobacco companies, and now oil and coal
>mining industry all come to mind. Perhaps you can think of a few
>more?

Oh, I can think of dozens of state-run enterprises which harmed people, either
the public generally or consumers directly.

Perhaps you can, too.

- Andrew Langer

Any posts by Andrew Langer are his own, written by him, for his own
enjoyment (and the education of others).  Unless expressly stated,
they represent his own views, and not those of any other individuals
or entities.  He is not, nor has he ever been, paid to post here.
Alastair McDonald - 16 Jan 2004 08:04 GMT
to breast cancer (highly unlikely IMHO).

> Gee, does every anti-marketeer have the same blind spot?  How many times do I
> have to tell you guys that if a business doesn't do right by the public, then it
> _GOES OUT OF BUSINESS_.  People don't buy products from those who are going to
> harm them.

Does that apply to the tobacco industry?

I am not anti-market. I do think it is a fairly efficent economic system,
certainly more efficient than communism, but it does need to be regulated.
All human activities need policing. Take sport, do you know of a game where
an umpire or referee is not used.

> Do you want examples?
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Oh, I can think of dozens of state-run enterprises which harmed people, either
> the public generally or consumers directly.

It is not a matter of state run enterprise versus private enterprise. It
is whether companies are made to follow the law, and laws are made
for companies.

Here is a good example of how free enterprise works.  The ferries
between Britain and the continent were deregulated, so they started
racing each other across the English Channel.  By leaving port
before their bow doors were closed they could knock 10 minutes
off the crossing time (to the consumer benefit.)  Then one day they
forgot to close the bow doors. See this page and links from it;

Service for ferry disaster victims
More than 190 people died when the ferry capsized
A memorial service has been held to mark the 16th anniversary of the Herald of
Free Enterprise ferry disaster.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2827229.stm

Regulations are needed, and no where more than in the case
of carbon dioxide emissions, which have a global, not just
national, effect.

Cheers, Alastair.
Andrew Langer - 16 Jan 2004 14:55 GMT
>to breast cancer (highly unlikely IMHO).
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Does that apply to the tobacco industry?

Ah, but in the case of tobacco, and alcohol, and fatty foods, and a host of
other products, people know that there is a risk inherent in them, and choose to
buy those products anyway.  And before you start talking about tobacco companies
denying the risk of their product, consumers were well-aware of the risks of
tobacco for _YEARS_, and nevertheless smoked.

It's a basic issue of whether or not the public feels they've been dealt with
honestly - in the case of Wampler foods, people felt wronged by Wampler's
actions, and punished Wampler accordingly.  In the case of tobacco, people knew
the risks, chose to smoke, and big tobacco dealt with the vicissitudes of the
marketplace.

>I am not anti-market. I do think it is a fairly efficent economic system,
>certainly more efficient than communism, but it does need to be regulated.
>All human activities need policing. Take sport, do you know of a game where
>an umpire or referee is not used.

The operative word there is "game", Alastair.  An economy isn't a game, it's a
system, like an organic system.  Sure there are rules that govern the system,
and it is up to some artifice to make sure that the rules are followed, but they
have to be simple rules that work in concert with the system with a minimum of
barriers.  Those barriers cause unintended consequences that have to be dealt
with elsewhere.

What rules?  Well, rules that essentially protect the rights of those within
that system, as both producers and consumers.  Rules against fraud, rules
against theft, rules against causing palpable harm.  The rules should extend
from that precept.

But what about rules that only tangentially relate to that precept?  Take
Maryland, for instance.  Maryland's legislature passed a law restricting certain
products that were not, in their estimation, energy efficient.

Is that really the role of a governing force in a marketplace?

>> Do you want examples?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>is whether companies are made to follow the law, and laws are made
>for companies.

And even the most ardent free-marketeer recognizes that there need to be basic
rules to govern the practices within that economy.  You're like those people who
claim that libertarians are anarchists, without examining the realities of
libertarian beliefs:  government serves a limited purpose - to preserve and
protect individual rights.  This holds true for the political system, as well as
the economic one.

>Here is a good example of how free enterprise works.  The ferries
>between Britain and the continent were deregulated, so they started
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Free Enterprise ferry disaster.
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2827229.stm

Negligence is negligence is negligence is negligence.  Let me ask you this,
Alastair - if there is no regulation governing a particular action, should
someone therefore have no responsibility to redress a harm if a harm is caused
by that action?

See, what I'm getting at is that you don't necessarily need a "regulation" to
address every form of negligent act, and if you bury businesses under
regulations, it has the potential to give businesses an "out" (ie, there was no
regulation governing it, therefore we can't be held responsible).

>Regulations are needed, and no where more than in the case
>of carbon dioxide emissions, which have a global, not just
>national, effect.

A)  You can harness the power of the marketplace to reduce CO2 emissions, if
there is an important public purpose in doing so.  You don't need a new
regulatory state, certainly not one on a global scale as would be required.
National environmental bureaucracies are unwieldy and burdensome enough - a
global environmental regulatory bureaucracy would be an intactible bohemoth;

I've written a number of items on the use of market forces to produce
environmental benefits across national boundaries, generally through the use of
guilds and guild seals of approval.

B)  Furthermore, not only can you not hamstring nations by creating massive
regulatory schemes on unsettled science (without proper risk assessment and
cost-benefit analyses), but you also cannot make choices for nations that may
not be advanced as yours, either politically, socially, or economically.  It's
immoral and elitist to hobble developing nations that cannot afford to make the
same social policy choices that the developed world can when it comes to the
environment.

- Andrew Langer

Any posts by Andrew Langer are his own, written by him, for his own
enjoyment (and the education of others).  Unless expressly stated,
they represent his own views, and not those of any other individuals
or entities.  He is not, nor has he ever been, paid to post here.
Vendicar Decarian - 18 Jan 2004 17:07 GMT
> Regulations are needed, and no where more than in the case
> of carbon dioxide emissions, which have a global, not just
> national, effect.

     THE INDEPENDENT PORTFOLIO - CLICK HERE

     Blood on the virtual carpet: tempers flare as 'editor' is thrown out
of
     online town with 80,000 inhabitants
     By Andrew Gumbel in Los Angeles

     16 January 2004

     Peter Ludlow is not just a computer gaming enthusiast. He's also a
     philosophy professor, with an abiding interest in the relationship
between
     the real and the virtual worlds. So when the world's most successful
     virtual-reality game, the Sims, launched an online version just over a
     year ago, he didn't just join in for fun; he also decided that he
could
     carry out research for his next book.

     And that was where the trouble started. Alphaville, the game's
fictional
     city, could have gone in any number of directions, depending on the
     arbitrary decisions of the online game players who make up its people
     through their chosen "avatars", or game characters.

     Alphaville could have become a socialist utopia, a grand experiment in
     free-market capitalism or simply a reflection of the allure and the
     pitfalls of any real Western city.

     As it was, Alphaville quickly turned into a hellhole of scam-artists,
     crime syndicates, mafia extortion artists and teenage girls turning
tricks
     to make ends meet. It became a breeding ground for the very worst in
human
     nature - a benign-sounding granny, for example, who specialised in
taking
     new players into her confidence, then showered them in abuse. Then
there
     was the scam-artist known as Evangeline, who started out equally
friendly
     and then stole new players' money.

     Professor Ludlow, who teaches at the University of Michigan, decided
he
     would chronicle Alphaville's seamy reality by setting up a
newspaper,The
     Alphaville Herald, run by his game alter-ego. He reported on the scams
and
     the prostitution rings, and also interviewed the protagonists.

     (Evangeline, his most intriguing source, turned out, in real life, to
be a
     spectacularly warped teenage boy.)

     But that was before his dispassionate academic inquiry ran smack into
the
     authoritarian brick wall of the game's manufacturer and controller,
the
     California gaming company Electronic Arts.

     The Alphaville Herald was closed down and Professor Ludlow's avatar,
     Urizenus, was kicked out of town. "While we regret it," Electronic
Arts
     told him in a letter, "we feel it is necessary for the good of the
game
     and its community."

     Officially, the reason for Professor Ludlow's expulsion was that he
     included links in his inside-the-game newspaper to outside websites,
     including one that gave players instructions on how to cheat. What
     Professor Ludlow and a growing band of academics and sympathisers
believe,
     however, is that his efforts to publicise the tawdry fantasy
activities of
     real-life teenagers were becoming simply too uncomfortable for
Electronic
     Arts to stomach.

     The company wants to draw the maximum number of players to the Sims
     Online, one of a growing number of interactive computer games
attracting
     audiences possibly hundreds of thousands of people. Such is the
interest
     in the phenomenon that the Sims Online game is to be featured in a
     California exhibition, opening today, which will feature a real-life
     recreation of a room from the game.

     The game is rated "T" for teenager and is sold, according to the
marketing
     materials, as a "fun-filled" exercise in fantasy projection. Publicity
     highlighting the very dark place that Alphaville had become was not
likely
     to be good for business, and could even get the company into trouble
over
     its rating.

     Shortly before he was thrown out of Alphaville, Urizenus and his
fellow
     reporters were openly questioning whether teenage game players should
be
     allowed to trade in human flesh, albeit virtual flesh, and wondering
     whether the Sims Online should be restricted to adults.

     Professor Ludlow's expulsion was only the beginning of a fascinating
new
     phase in the game. Electronic Arts, through its online game
controller,
     Maxis, has been cracking down on bad behaviour to clean up Alphaville
and,
     one assumes, try and boost its audience which is stuck at a 80,000 (EA
had
     hoped for a million by now). Evangeline and the psycho-granny have
been
     disciplined, as have various mafia syndicates and a parallel city
     government set up as a player-based alternative form of authority.

     You could compare it to Mussolini's crackdown on the Sicilian Mafia,
or
     even to President George Bush's war on terror. The academics are
having a
     field day as they see real-life issues of power and control played out
in
     cyberspace. The very premise of an online game is that it is
     uncontrollable - indeed, even the banned players have found ways to
sneak
     back in various disguises.

     That, in turn, presents a thorny set of philosophical problems. How do
you
     seek to curb the baser instincts of a community of autonomous players?
Is
     repression the answer? Or do you have to give people incentives to
behave
     better all by themselves? Such questions have been pondered even
within
     the august confines of Yale Law School, where one student, James
     Grimmelmann, wrote recently: "On the one hand, Maxis is close to
losing
     control over their game world. TSO is a positively Brechtian world of
     violence, flim-flammery, and low-down dirty tricks.

     "On the other hand, Maxis acts like a classic despot, using its powers
to
     single out individual critics for the dungeons and the firing squads.
The
     usual real-world justification for this kind of arbitrary action is
the
     need for a strong central hand to protect public safety and common
     welfare. But since Maxis isn't all that good at those aspects, the
Herald
     censorship smacks more of tyranny for its own sake."

     You can draw your own conclusions about how this relates to the
politics
     of the real world, but the parallels are there.
Tim Jackson - 16 Jan 2004 08:43 GMT
> Gee, does every anti-marketeer have the same blind spot?  How many times do I
> have to tell you guys that if a business doesn't do right by the public, then it
> _GOES OUT OF BUSINESS_.  People don't buy products from those who are going to
> harm them.
>
> Do you want examples?

Microsoft.  Please make an example of Microsoft!  Please!

Tim Jackson
Andrew Langer - 16 Jan 2004 14:57 GMT
>> Gee, does every anti-marketeer have the same blind spot?  How many times
>do I
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Microsoft.  Please make an example of Microsoft!  Please!

Has the public really been "harmed" by Microsoft?  I mean, we can get into
economic arguments about trusts, but when it comes down to it, but in the end,
there are a lot of consumers that really like Microsoft products.

- Andrew Langer

Any posts by Andrew Langer are his own, written by him, for his own
enjoyment (and the education of others).  Unless expressly stated,
they represent his own views, and not those of any other individuals
or entities.  He is not, nor has he ever been, paid to post here.
Tim Jackson - 16 Jan 2004 20:47 GMT
> >> Gee, does every anti-marketeer have the same blind spot?  How many times
> >do I
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> economic arguments about trusts, but when it comes down to it, but in the end,
> there are a lot of consumers that really like Microsoft products.

This is normal for a monopoly.  It doesn't make it or its products good.

But I'm not going to get drawn into a technical discussion about software
design on these newsgroups.

Tim
Vendicar Decarian - 18 Jan 2004 18:14 GMT
> This is normal for a monopoly.  It doesn't make it or its products good.

Microsoft is hated in part because it produces somewhat polished pieces of
dung.

Ignorant of the fact that they are purchaing dung, an ignorant public
purchases the little boubles and marvels at their good fortune.
Myrl - 17 Jan 2004 01:39 GMT
Andy,
I must admit, I'm a Microsoft/Bill Gates devotee.  Before Microsoft
and Windows, civilization as we know it today, lurked in the dark
ages.  IBM had a strangle hold on computer technology, and the common
man didn't have access to it.  Along comes Bill Gates, and Microsoft
Windows, and for an affordable cost, computers can be put into many
homes, libraries, schools, and access given to kids, the elderly, the
handicapped, the poor, the middle class, and the rich, all via the
internet, and easy to use applications.  It is an awesome empowerment
of mankind when you stop to think about it.

I never quite understood what the gripe was that the competitors had,
other than Microsoft when packaging Windows, used their own Internet
Explorer as the browser.  Business is business in America, it's all
about competition.  No business would freely give away advantage, or
technology to it's competitors.

I feel in this universe, throughout the ages, there have been a "few"
benevolent Gods. . .I believe that Bill Gates is one of 'em!

If you think Microsoft isn't better than IBM, try giving up Outlook
and using Lotus Notes for awhile. . .IBM Lotus Notes, is 1960s
technology.  They are so far behind, that I doubt they will ever catch
up!

Myrl

>  
> >> Gee, does every anti-marketeer have the same blind spot?  How many times
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> they represent his own views, and not those of any other individuals
> or entities.  He is not, nor has he ever been, paid to post here.
Tim Jackson - 17 Jan 2004 10:28 GMT
> Andy,
> I must admit, I'm a Microsoft/Bill Gates devotee.  Before Microsoft
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> internet, and easy to use applications.  It is an awesome empowerment
> of mankind when you stop to think about it.

Bill Gates didn't do that, Apple did.  I remember, I was in the business at
the time.

Quick history lesson.  IBM, crown prince of the mainframe, ignored the rise
of personal computing until it was almost too late.  Seeing the writing on
the wall (and it was Apple shaped, with a bite out) the only way to get back
into the market and ahead of Apple was to throw their design open to
third-world manufacturers to build compatibles.  They needed an operating
system quickly.  Forward Bill Gates, owner (but not author - he got it in a
garage sale or something) of QDOS, Quick & Dirty Operating System (honestly,
it was).  Bill Gates milked the IBM whirlwind and got rich.

Windows never made computers a cent cheaper, and Microsoft never made PCs at
all.  So the low price of PC's has nothing to do with Microsoft and
everything to do with IBM's 1 Big Mistake.

Tim  Jackson
Ilena - 17 Jan 2004 22:08 GMT
"Tim Jackson" <tim@tim-jackson.co.uk>

> Quick history lesson.  IBM, crown prince of the mainframe, ignored the rise
> of personal computing until it was almost too late.  Seeing the writing on
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> garage sale or something) of QDOS, Quick & Dirty Operating System (honestly,
> it was).  Bill Gates milked the IBM whirlwind and got rich.

There's a very telling moment in the film "Pirates of Silicon Valley"
(I believe that's the name) when Gates is negotiating with IBM ...

Right before he left ... the software rights were brought up ... Gates
of course wanted them ... IBM nodded and waved him away with something
like, "Sure ... all of the profits are in the hardware anyway" (my
recollection from a few years ago) ...
Tim Jackson - 18 Jan 2004 01:36 GMT
> "Tim Jackson" <tim@tim-jackson.co.uk>
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> like, "Sure ... all of the profits are in the hardware anyway" (my
> recollection from a few years ago) ...

Yes, they'd totally lost the plot, they were so confident that the future
lay in mainframes and centralisation.  They followed the steam engine
analogy - once we had little steam engines in every factory and now we (UK)
have a few dozen huge ones in power stations powering the whole country.
What was missing from that scenario is that Apple and others were busy going
around building the equivalent of diesel engines, and no-one was building
the "power grid" comms network that the IBM concept needed.  Our big
mainframes were being strangled by lack of bandwidth, and our remote users
were buying desktops just to buffer the comms.

Tim
Vendicar Decarian - 18 Jan 2004 18:10 GMT
> I never quite understood what the gripe was that the competitors had,
> other than Microsoft when packaging Windows, used their own Internet
> Explorer as the browser.  Business is business in America, it's all
> about competition.  No business would freely give away advantage, or
> technology to it's competitors.

DOS isn't done, till Lotus won't run....

A pattern of dishonest and disreputable behaviour that Microsoft follows to
this day.
Ilena - 18 Jan 2004 16:41 GMT
Andrew Langer<Langrrr@aol.com>

How many times do I
> have to tell you guys that if a business doesn't do right by the public, then it
> _GOES OUT OF BUSINESS_.  People don't buy products from those who are going to
> harm them.

Hmmm ... sounds like Andy learned his PR lessons very well ...

Unfortunately ... that is amongst his most ridiculous ever statements.

I will address just the breast implant issue ... one I've spent over 8
years studying ...

Andy has ad hommed me an "ignoramus" regarding my beliefs on this
controversial issue ... one that the Junk Science Campaign is now
spinning like a top because of Inamed's recent failure to get "safety"
approval for their potentially very dangerous silicone gel implants.

In another part of this thread ... Andy talks about "fraud" ... again
Inamed comes to mind. Here are links to their security fraud ...

http://www.sec.gov/litigation/litreleases/lr16466.htm
http://www.sec.gov/litigation/admin/34-41751.htm

Over 40,000 women received a paltry sum for the injuries from implant
complications and failures ...

Are they _OUT OF BUSINESS_ ?

By no means ... far, far from it.

Andy's Theory #1 shot.

~~~~~~~~~

Let's talk about Dow Corning?

Now in their 9th year of so called "bankruptcy protection" ... they
were convicted of fraud ... for lying to their customers claiming that
implants "would last a lifetime" etc. etc.in the Mariann Hopkins case.

Papa Dow Chemical lost to Charlotte Mahlum in Nevada a few years ago
...

Are Papa or Baby Dow  _OUT OF BUSINESS_ ?

LOL ... not even close.

in fact, these years have enabled Dow Corning to position itself more
strongly in the silicone world ... and have expanded into many
silicone related, non breast implant areas ... as well as others.

Andy's Theory #1 shot yet again?

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Is there a "closed" sign on Bristol Myers headquarters?

Nope.

Sorry, Andy,#1 shot down yet again.

~~~~~~~~~

Andy's Junk Science Speak:

People don't buy products from those who are going to
> harm them.

~~~~~~~~

Uhhhhhhh ... yes they do ... usually thru agents (plastic surgeons
etc.) of the makers ...

Outside of the silicone issue ... there are many, many examples ...

People may have been convinced that the implants they are buying is
not going to harm them ... but when the infections set in, when the
implants rupture ... the products have already been bought ...

Andy's Theory #2 shot.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PS's regularly underestimate and minimize the risks from breast
implants ... and with Inamed's recent loss ... their PR teams seem to
be working double time.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

www.BreastImplantAwareness.org
Vendicar Decarian - 18 Jan 2004 21:34 GMT
> > How many times do I
> > have to tell you guys that if a business doesn't do right by the public, then it
> > _GOES OUT OF BUSINESS_.

 And thus by definition, any business that has not gone out of business
must be doing right by the public.

 The author of that statement proves that either is either so ignorant that
he will purchase any snake oil from any pigopolist, or more probably he is
in the business of selling some form of snake oil himself.

> > People don't buy products from those who are going to
> > harm them.

 Everyone who smokes, owns a gun, loves their car, or believes a single
statment coming from the current White House or any NeoCon thinktank.
Andrew Langer - 20 Jan 2004 02:44 GMT
>> > How many times do I
>> > have to tell you guys that if a business doesn't do right by the public,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>  And thus by definition, any business that has not gone out of business
>must be doing right by the public.

Or if it isn't, it will be in grave danger of doing so.

>  The author of that statement proves that either is either so ignorant that
>he will purchase any snake oil from any pigopolist, or more probably he is
>in the business of selling some form of snake oil himself.

And the author of that statement is someone so cowardly that he refuses to post
under his own name, or a crazed loon who has been demonstrated to be an ignorant
liar, an apologist for one of the greatest mass murderers of the 20th century,
and one of Usenet's greatest living trolls.

You wanna insult me, Scottie?  Be man enough to do it using your own name.
Hiding behind this bizarre pseudonymous personae is beneath you.  After all, a
narcissist like yourself always liked getting credit for your own misdeeds...

>> > People don't buy products from those who are going to
>> > harm them.
>
>  Everyone who smokes, owns a gun, loves their car, or believes a single
>statment coming from the current White House or any NeoCon thinktank.

People are rational enough to assess risks themselves and make choices for
themselves.  They don't need elitist narcissists like Scott Nudds, er, excuse
me, "Vendicar Decarian" to do their thinking for them.

- Andrew Langer

Any posts by Andrew Langer are his own, written by him, for his own
enjoyment (and the education of others).  Unless expressly stated,
they represent his own views, and not those of any other individuals
or entities.  He is not, nor has he ever been, paid to post here.
User123 - 20 Jan 2004 17:25 GMT
Yes please, give us credit to make our own informed choices. We can't
stop living afraid to do anything. We know that implants was a very
wrong choice and maybe many other things, but is it not up to us to
make our own decisions from now on. They may be right they may be
wrong, Thank God we have the freedm to make our own choices before
they are taken away from us.   Unles;

The choices we know are morally wrong? did I spell that right, bare
with me.

The choice a parent may make take to thump their kids on the heads
just for the heck of it when they walk by, I have sen this I hate it.

Choices of abusing chldren of course, of abusing women, abusing
husbands, children abusing parents, cildren abusing elder parents,
elder parents laying gult trips on their chldren.

I'm leaving this open, hoping others will add to this list. My mind is
foggy and my arms are weak or I would try some more even. bad day. But
I know that thers have an opinion on bad and good choices.

I almost forgot the best Choice. To Love our Lord wth all our heart
and soul and all our might.

Love and Hugs
God Bless
Kay

> >> > How many times do I
> >> > have to tell you guys that if a business doesn't do right by the public,
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> they represent his own views, and not those of any other individuals
> or entities.  He is not, nor has he ever been, paid to post here.
Nessa - 18 Jan 2004 21:07 GMT
I disagree that Breast Cancer does not affect women over 60....My
husband just lost 2 family members to Breast Cancer....One was 84 and
the other was 90. So who ever says that Breast Cancer doesn't affect
anyone older than 60 is WRONG!
Nessa
> AFAIK breast cancer does not affect women over 60 so a
> doctor would be well aware that it is not the main killer of
> women, only that it is the main cause of premature death amonst
> women, which I am sure was the message intended.
>
> Cheers, Alastair.
Coleah - 18 Jan 2004 23:08 GMT
I'd have to agree with you, Nessa!

http://www.tmf.org/poqi/opra.htm
|Breast Cancer

 According to the American Cancer Society, breast cancer is the second
leading cause of cancer-related deaths among women in the U.S. The risk of
developing breast cancer increases with age: 85 percent of breast cancers
occur in women age 50 and over, and women over age 60 are at even greater
risk.

 ==================

> I disagree that Breast Cancer does not affect women over 60....My
> husband just lost 2 family members to Breast Cancer....One was 84 and
> the other was 90. So who ever says that Breast Cancer doesn't affect
> anyone older than 60 is WRONG!
> Nessa

> > AFAIK breast cancer does not affect women over 60 so a
> > doctor would be well aware that it is not the main killer of
> > women, only that it is the main cause of premature death amonst
> > women, which I am sure was the message intended.
> >
> > Cheers, Alastair.
Ilena - 19 Jan 2004 19:45 GMT
Nessa005@yahoo.com (Nessa) wrote in message

> I disagree that Breast Cancer does not affect women over 60....My
> husband just lost 2 family members to Breast Cancer....One was 84 and
> the other was 90. So who ever says that Breast Cancer doesn't affect
> anyone older than 60 is WRONG!
> Nessa

Have to agree with you strongly, Nessa ... think someone was just
misinformed on that.

I'm going to look up the ages at diagnosis if I can find them ...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

www.BreastImplantAwareness.org
Tim Jackson - 19 Jan 2004 21:57 GMT
> Nessa005@yahoo.com (Nessa) wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> I'm going to look up the ages at diagnosis if I can find them ...

If you look in another branch of this thread you'll see that on 14 Jan I
posted a (US) table of diagnosis by age.

It clearly shows that bc rate increases with age, levelling off at around
75, and that the statement mentioned above was a misconception.

Tim Jackson
Lance Hill - 13 Jan 2004 02:07 GMT
>> Cosmetic chemicals found in breast tumours
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>> development of breast cancers. The preservatives are used in many
>> cosmetics and some foods to increase their shelf-life.

I wouldn't worry about it yet.

The researchers had a hard time measuring relative paragen levels, mostly
due to the ubiquitous nature of parabens. Even their blanks, which are
supposed to contain no parabens and are run the same time as tissue samples,
tested out with high paraben levels - 20% to 110% of the paraben levels in
the tissue samples.

I plotted the data and there's a statistically significant trend (P=0.0006)
that higher blank paraben levels go with higher level tissue paraben levels.
To me this suggests the paraben in any of the samples may come from previous
tissue handling or handling in the lab itself.

The researchers suggest that their procedure needs some modifications (see
below) for any future studies.

Lance
*****

Journal of Applied Toxicology v24;5-13
Concentration of Parabens in Human Breast Tumors
Darbre et al

"The reasons for the analytical blank values for parabens in these studies
have not been identified definitively but probably relate to the ubiquitous
use of parabens as preservatives even in laboratory detergents and personal
care products of the operators. Analogous problems have been encountered
with the measurement of phthalate esters because of their common use as
plasticizers and their ubiquitous dispersal as impurities in solvents,
water, glassware and many items of clinical and analytical laboratory
equipment (Lopez-Aviva et al., 1990; Leung & Giang, 1993;Colon et al.,
2000). More recent work in these laboratories (unpublished) has shown that
immersion of all glassware in 1.0 M aqueous sodium hydroxide, followed by
copious rinsing with double-distilled water, prior to use of this glassware
in tissue extraction greatly reduces the blank values of paraben
concentrations as measured by HPLCMS/MS. This addition to the analytical
procedure is therefore recommended for use in further studies on paraben
concentrations in tissues."
Anthony - 12 Jan 2004 21:29 GMT
> Cosmetic chemicals found in breast tumours

Men and women both use deodorants, probably in more or less equal numbers,
yet breast cancer in men is rare. Wonder why that should be.
Mark ProbertJanuary 12, 2004 - 12 Jan 2004 21:41 GMT
> > Cosmetic chemicals found in breast tumours
> >
> Men and women both use deodorants, probably in more or less equal numbers,
> yet breast cancer in men is rare. Wonder why that should be.

It could be for several reasons. Without really thinking too hard, the
different body chemistry of women, just to name one possible reason.
Anthony - 12 Jan 2004 22:07 GMT
> > Men and women both use deodorants, probably in more or less equal numbers,
> > yet breast cancer in men is rare. Wonder why that should be.
>
> It could be for several reasons. Without really thinking too hard, the
> different body chemistry of women, just to name one possible reason.

Maybe, or maybe deodorants don't cause cancer.  Who knows?
Mark ProbertJanuary 12, 2004 - 12 Jan 2004 22:17 GMT
> > > Men and women both use deodorants, probably in more or less equal
> numbers,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> >
> Maybe, or maybe deodorants don't cause cancer.  Who knows?

A valid question has been raised, and thus should be answered.
Kaye301 - 12 Jan 2004 22:52 GMT
Anthony wrote:
<< >
Maybe, or maybe deodorants don't cause cancer.  Who knows?>>

There was breast cancer before deodorants...
su-texas@webtv.net - 13 Jan 2004 00:17 GMT
Anthony wrote:

Maybe, or maybe deodorants don't cause cancer. Who knows?

Kaye wrote:

There was breast cancer before deodorants...

Su_Texas writes:

There are many different kinds of breast cancer, & probably many causes,
.. some of which might (partly) be, the chemicals in some deoderant &
make-up, ... but I wouldn't wait for the govt to confirm it.

How long did it take the govt to officially decide, that smoking &
second-hand smoke might be health risks?

Susan, Su_Texas  my opinions
Ilena - 13 Jan 2004 16:51 GMT
> There are many different kinds of breast cancer, & probably many causes,
> .. some of which might (partly) be, the chemicals in some deoderant &
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Susan, Su_Texas  my opinions

Exactly ... the game is to play "reasonable doubt" until the
manufacturers of harmful products figure out how to escape liability.

Breast implants have been on the market for 40 years ... it's only
been in the last decade that the government has really looked at the
monumental harm done by them.

www.BreastImplantAwareness.org
Kaye301 - 12 Jan 2004 22:50 GMT
<< Men and women both use deodorants, probably in more or less equal numbers,
yet breast cancer in men is rare. Wonder why that should be. >>

And some don't use underarm deodorants.  I rarely perspired under my arms for
the past 10 years or more, so I didn't need an underarm deodorant.  (No, I
wasn't fooled--have very good sense of smell--and one of our kids very much
needed to use one at a young age).
Warren Ward - 12 Jan 2004 22:31 GMT
Some confusion here?

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994555

actually says

"A small survey by New Scientist of three British high street shops
and one supermarket found deodorants in each that contained parabens,
although most of these products did not. However, many other products
used under the arm commonly contained parabens, such as body sprays,
hair removal creams and shaving gels. Body lotions, face creams,
cleansers and shampoos also frequently contained parabens."  ..  which
is not the same as printed below.

The point I was making (in alt.support.cancer.breast) is that if you
add deodorants and antiperspirants together only a small proportion
contain parabens, as antiperspirants don't have them, but there are
quite a number of deodorants around with them. Checking this evening
in a supermarket, some have gone from the shelves but some remain.
Some body moisturisers including some labelled "dermatological" have
parabens. It is good news if the industry is going to (gradually?)
stop including parabens in anything which is designed to remain on the
skin.

With best wishes,

Warren

http://www.innatehealth.com

> Cosmetic chemicals found in breast tumours
>  
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>  
> Gaia Vince
 
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