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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Breast Cancer / December 2003

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Herceptin Question

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bartalo@webtv.net - 02 Dec 2003 23:51 GMT
Today after I finished my 2nd radiation treatment (already had 4 AC
Chemos), the doctor in Radiology department brought to my attention that
he found it odd that I was Her+ and ER+.  I asked if it could be an
error and he said no that it does occur in some patients.  When I asked
why my Oncologist  did not give me Herceptin if I was Her+ to my great
concern, he old me he doubts I would be given Herceptin because it is
too expensive a drug.  

Does anyone know anything about this?  Are patients not allowed to get
Herceptin for this reason?  I have medical insurance and wonder if it is
because certain insurers refuse to pay for this drug.  I am dismayed and
concerned that a drug would not be given to a patient for this reason.  

I was told I would probably be put on Tamoxifen after finishing my
radiation treatments but nothing said about doing anything about my
being Her+.    Will the Tamoxifen help the Her+ prroblem?   I am sorry
to bother you with so many questions but hope some of you may have
knowledge in this area and can clarify these things for me.  I don't
want to  be overly concerned that I am not getting the best medical care
for my bc if my doctor is doing what is  best for me.   Thanks for any
help or advice you can give me.

Bea
Tony Lima - 03 Dec 2003 02:32 GMT
>Today after I finished my 2nd radiation treatment (already had 4 AC
>Chemos), the doctor in Radiology department brought to my attention that
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>for my bc if my doctor is doing what is  best for me.   Thanks for any
>help or advice you can give me.

Bea, I use the drug interaction calculator at
http://www.drugdigest.org/DD/Interaction/ChooseDrugs to help
me with questions like yours.  Here's what they have to say
about herceptin and tamoxifen:

No interactions were found for the drugs you selected.
You searched for interactions between the following drugs:

Herceptin
Tamoxifen

I chose tamoxifen because it's pretty standard for ER+
cancers.  You may want to try with Arimidex.

If they're denying you treatment because of cost and you're
located in the U.S. I'd get in touch with whatever state
agency regulates health insurers in your state. - Tony

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Kaye301 - 03 Dec 2003 07:16 GMT
Bea wrote<< the doctor in Radiology department brought to my attention that
he found it odd that I was Her+ and ER+.  I asked if it could be an
error and he said no that it does occur in some patients.   >>

Hi  Bea, although it may be somewhat less common, I was also ER+ and Her2+  In
addition my main tumor was invasive lobular (pleomorphic) and supposedly only
5% of those with lobular are Her2+  (and only about 1o to 12% or 15% of breast
cancers ar lobuarI had lots of rare things going on.  
As far as getting Herceptin, what stage of breast cancer were you dx'd with.
At this time it has only been approved for  stage IV breast cancer unless you
are in a clinical trial.  If you want to know why your onc. did not consider
it, he should be the one that you are asking--directly. Are you  eligible for
any clinical trails?
It was recommended that I also take Tamoxifen.  However, Tamoxifen has a 25 to
30% failure rate and it may be for those who are also Her2+ as well as ER+ That
was why I refused Tamoxifen and the only way I was going to be able to get an
aromastase inhibitor through our health plan.
I did seek outside opinions and one top research oncologist told me that the
Tamoxifen might work effectively if Tamoxifen is also given.  However, the
aromatase inhibitors (i.e. Femara, Arimidex) may work better if given along
with Her2+
Tim Jackson - 03 Dec 2003 10:06 GMT
Responses interspersed.

> Today after I finished my 2nd radiation treatment (already had 4 AC
> Chemos), the doctor in Radiology department brought to my attention that
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> because certain insurers refuse to pay for this drug.  I am dismayed and
> concerned that a drug would not be given to a patient for this reason.

There has to be a sensible return on expenditure.  Taking such a drug on the
off chance that it might help is just not sensible, especially as the
statistical benefit in this situation is not really known yet.  There are
also risks associated with this drug as with most others, and quite apart
form the cost, one has to do a risk balance on giving dangerous drugs to a
healthy woman for what is essentially prophylaxis.

> I was told I would probably be put on Tamoxifen after finishing my
> radiation treatments but nothing said about doing anything about my
> being Her+.    Will the Tamoxifen help the Her+ prroblem?

Being HER+ is not really a "problem" per se.  Tamoxifen will help with the
cancer problem.  The tests indicate that your cancer cells have receptors to
both HER2/neu and Estrogen which both help it to bypass the normal controls
on growth.  Blocking either or both paths will reduce the stimulation to
grow and so increase your body's chances of getting rid of any stray cancer
cells before they have a chance to develop into a secondary tumour.

In the UK they would not usually do the HER2 test at this stage because the
result would not make any difference to the trreatment given.

> I am sorry
> to bother you with so many questions but hope some of you may have
> knowledge in this area and can clarify these things for me.  I don't
> want to  be overly concerned that I am not getting the best medical care
> for my bc if my doctor is doing what is  best for me.   Thanks for any
> help or advice you can give me.

The word "best" is dangerous, there are always diminishing returns to
consider.  Somewhere we have to come out of denial and draw a line saying
"this is how far it is worth going"

Tim Jackson
bartalo@webtv.net - 03 Dec 2003 16:24 GMT
Thanks Tony, Kaye, and Tim for helping me to understand this subject and
alleviate some of my fears.  

I was told I am Stage 2 because they found a one inch lump and out of 22
lympnodes, they found one positive.     Maybe they are waiting to see
what my outcome is after I finish the 33 radiation treatments and do the
Tamoxifen before they decide if it is really necessary for Herceptin.
That's ok with me because I don't really want any more of those
dangerous drugs in me than I really have to have to try to survive this
bc.   Much appreciation for your input.

Bea
allan grossman - 04 Dec 2003 13:35 GMT
> Thanks Tony, Kaye, and Tim for helping me to understand this subject and
> alleviate some of my fears.  
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Bea

Hi, Bea -

To echo what Kaye said the reason you weren't offered Herceptin is
that it's illegal to prescribe it for Stage 2 breast cancer unless
you're participating in a clinical drug trial - your oncologist
doesn't really have a choice in the matter.

There are Herceptin trials recruiting now that may interest you - take
a look at http://www.clinicaltrials.gov and just plug "Herceptin" into
the search box.

Herceptin is pretty tough on your heart - and every Herceptin trial I
looked at for Stage 2 breast cancer required conventional chemotherapy
in addition to the investigational drug.  There were one or two trials
that guaranteed Herceptin if you were Her2+ but I'd look at the trials
carefully.  Most of them were double-blind tests where you stand about
an even change of getting it - or not.

good luck!
Tony Lima - 04 Dec 2003 22:39 GMT
>> Thanks Tony, Kaye, and Tim for helping me to understand this subject and
>> alleviate some of my fears.  
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
>good luck!

Allan, thanks for the clarification.  I obviously didn't
know what I was talking about. - Tony

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allan grossman - 05 Dec 2003 13:36 GMT
> Allan, thanks for the clarification.  I obviously didn't
> know what I was talking about. - Tony

That was pretty far from my intent, Tony - and I've been wrong lotsa
times in this forum.  Not knowing what I'm talking about generally
doesn't even slow me down  :)

I appreciate your (and everyone else's) input here  :)
 
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