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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Breast Cancer / July 2008

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Not sure I can do radiation

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downwinder - 01 Jul 2008 15:50 GMT
After getting my lumpectomy and re-excision, I'm totally eaten up with
anxiety about the radiation.  I guess I should have gotten a
mastectomy. Having spent my first 12 years bathed in fallout from the
Nevada nuke tests, I'm certain I got breast cancer from radiation (200
percent increased BC risk among Utah downwinder women).

I'm not sure I can drag myself in for the treatments.  I had to psyche
myself up for weeks just to get a mammogram, now I'm absolutely
panicked.  I asked my doctor if my previous radiation exposure should
be a factor, but she gave me a blank look and said I must have max
whole-breast radiation, period.  She won't consider reducing it to
partial breast radiation.  Ixia, Eva, Mary, did anyone get PBR?

I'm looking into the risk of no radiation.  I realize what a wuss I'm
being here, but only a fellow Utahn of my generation can understand
our phobia of radiation.

Les
Mary Fisher - 01 Jul 2008 19:53 GMT
> After getting my lumpectomy and re-excision, I'm totally eaten up with
> anxiety about the radiation.  I guess I should have gotten a
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> whole-breast radiation, period.  She won't consider reducing it to
> partial breast radiation.  Ixia, Eva, Mary, did anyone get PBR?

Frankly I don't know. I just accepted what the oncologist said. I had
radiation on one breast only but think it was from two sides. It was ten
years ago and my memory isn't what it was - it never has been :-)

> I'm looking into the risk of no radiation.  I realize what a wuss I'm
> being here, but only a fellow Utahn of my generation can understand
> our phobia of radiation.

It's certainly not my place to advise because I have no experience (I think)
of fallout radiation but you can't be the only woman (or man) who's had
breast or other cancer treatment following such exposure. Don't you know
anyone? I mean, if the fallout radiation caused a huge increased risk of
breast or other cancers then you must know someone, I know lots of people
who've had breast and prostate cancers without experiencing fallout
radiation.

Percentage increases in risk following fall out radiation aren't necessarily
significant, Tim can explain more about that.

Percentage increases or decreases in risk of not having or having radiation
therapy aren't necessarily significant either.

My approach was to put myself in the hands of the experts who were dealing
with the situation on a daily basis and do what they said. I wasn't always
happy at the time but so far (ten years later) they've been right :-)

At 69 I'm very happy. And unlike people from USA I had no choice in the
people I had to trust.

By the way, a fellow cancer patient, who lives close to me but we didn't
meet until we were in the ward together, refused to take hormone medication.
She's still doing well too - but one swallow doesn't make a summer.

I just don't know, sorry ...

Mary

Mary
Ixia - 01 Jul 2008 20:32 GMT
> After getting my lumpectomy and re-excision, I'm totally eaten up with
> anxiety about the radiation.  

Can you put words on your anxiety? What do you think is going to
happen?

> I guess I should have gotten a
> mastectomy.

You still can.

Notice I'm /not/ saying or implying you should, I'm saying that you
still have options: Treatment and recovery is a process, you are still
working through it.

I opted for a mastectomy (against my oncologists advice), thinking I
would be getting a  re-consruction right about now.

I'm actually not thinking about reconstruction at this time - perhaps
in the future I will. I'm fine with my mastectomy. It's the part of
treatment I have recovered the best and quickest from, by far.

I look good in my clothes. I feel so comfortable wearing my breast
form that I forget it's there. My husband is fine with the way I look.
He'll support me if I go for reconstruction, but has made it crystal
clear that if I do, it will be for me, not for him. At this point I
just can't /choose/ more pain and misery for myself. I just want to
enjoy life while I can.

I have found good info here: http://breastfree.org/

> Having spent my first 12 years bathed in fallout from the
> Nevada nuke tests, I'm certain I got breast cancer from radiation (200
> percent increased BC risk among Utah downwinder women).

It's possible you did, but even so, that's not automatically a reason
not to get /radiation treatment/.

> I'm not sure I can drag myself in for the treatments.  I had to psyche
> myself up for weeks just to get a mammogram, now I'm absolutely
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> She won't consider reducing it to
> partial breast radiation.  Ixia, Eva, Mary, did anyone get PBR?

No, but why is PBR less terrifying?

> I'm looking into the risk of no radiation.  

Remember, Les, no woman ever died from the tumor in her breast. It's
the mets that kill you. Cancer cells left in your breast can send mets
to your bones, brain, liver. That's why lumpectomy is only as safe as
mastectomy /combined with radiation/.You really need to discuss this
with a radiation oncologist before you decide. We are not doctors
here.

> I realize what a wuss I'm
> being here, but only a fellow Utahn of my generation can understand
> our phobia of radiation.

You're /not/ a wuss, you have been hit by a terrible disease and some
truly lousy options :-(

Ixia
judy.n - 01 Jul 2008 20:47 GMT
> > After getting my lumpectomy and re-excision, I'm totally eaten up with
> > anxiety about the radiation.  
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
>
> Ixia
Les, just to totally confuse you, there is a LONG thread in the
discussion board on breastcancer.org from women who opted out of
radiation, a very heated discussion. As someone who is going through
it, I did read it and it made me think, but I'm still comfortable with
my choice.
 But there are choices, and you need to meet with the radiation
oncologist and bring up your issues.
 You've mentioned that you have generous breasts--there is a way to
deliver the radiation just to the site with an implanted balloon--I
believe it's called mammosite, and it only takes a week.
 You have options and time.
Judy
Here's a mammosite website: definitely an advertisement. My radiation
oncologist told me I was a candidate for partial breast irradiation,
due to my age (they were still doing the trial on <50 at dx) but
didn't recommend it due to poor cosmetic results.
Tim Jackson - 01 Jul 2008 22:41 GMT
> After getting my lumpectomy and re-excision, I'm totally eaten up with
> anxiety about the radiation.  I guess I should have gotten a
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Les

Please consider this.  The local radiation limit to a particular tissue
is about real measurable tissue damage, things like burning, scarring,
hardening and loss of function of the tissue.  Clinical signs. It has
little or no connection to total radiation body dose, which is mostly
about cancer risks and cannot be physically measured in the body after
the fact.  Obviously radiotherapy does add a significant whack to your
total body dose, but as it is confined to one particular area, it is
only slightly increasing the (long term) cancer risk around that area,
while drastically reducing the short term very significant cancer risk
from the tumour residues.

So separate the two parts and balance them off. You can ignore the
effect of environmental radiation on your local radiotherapy limit, it's
a tiny fraction of what your are going to get zapped with.  It's not
like downwinders get a sunburn or anything from the fallout: it takes a
physicist or a statistician to even know it's there.

The additional long term cancer risk from radiotherapy as far as I can
see should be simply additive to the background level. So the additional
risk you are facing is the same additional risk as everyone else is
facing taking this treatment, it's just that you start with a higher
base risk, that you are already living with.

So basically the risk-benefit analysis only differs in this - the
average life expectancy for downwinders may be a little lower than for
the population at large, so do the analysis for a woman 5 years or so
older than you are, and you've got it covered.  I doubt it would ever
make a difference to the prescription, age isn't a big factor in the
radiation decision.

This is not about a rational decision about risks and benefits, this is
about fear of radiation in general, engendered by your previous
exposure.  Like you say, a phobia.  The thing to address is overcoming
the fear, then you can examine the clinical issues rationally, and see
that actually, there aren't any clinical issues.  Hence the doctor's
blank look - they tend to go that way when faced with psychological
problems.

I'm not belittling your problem, I do understand how these things can
get under your skin, but the answer is still to divide and conquer:
break up the problem into bite-sized pieces and 'defeat it in detail'.
Like Ixia said:
> What do you think is going to happen?

Go through it slowly step by step.  What do you think the radiation is
going to do to you, and what do you think it is going to do different
from what it would do to an unexposed person.

Tim
fortunata - 02 Jul 2008 01:49 GMT
Les, I've been thinking about you a lot. Please don't take this question as
advocacy, but I wanted to ask: Has anyone suggested double mastectomy to
you? I am genuinely wondering.

In your shoes, I would be very very afraid to do radiation. Heck, I was
afraid anyway. I did have mastectomy and...well, it's not perfect but....

> After getting my lumpectomy and re-excision, I'm totally eaten up with
> anxiety about the radiation.  I guess I should have gotten a
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Les
downwinder - 02 Jul 2008 15:20 GMT
> Les, I've been thinking about you a lot. Please don't take this question as
> advocacy, but I wanted to ask: Has anyone suggested double mastectomy to
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks for the encouragement and illumination, all.  Yes, I realize
I'm dealing with a phobia here, but the consequences of the nuke tests
are quite clear and obvious to Utah natives.  If the effect was
trivial, the feds wouldn't be writing $50,000 checks to any cancer
victim who lived at least two of those years in southern Utah or
northern Arizona.  I spent all 12 years north of the cutoff line, in a
major population center excluded from compensation.  But now southern
Idaho is crusading to be compensated.

Anyway, I will talk to the radiation doctor and ask about things like
nuke test exposure and lung spillover.  However, I heard questions are
ignored at our radiation place. Five close family members have died of
lung cancer.  Though I don't smoke, I've breathed plenty of wood
smoke, as well as forest fire smoke all summer for most of the last 10
years. 12 days now visibility is 100 feet here.

My surgeon says I can't have mammosite or PBR because I had two
(adjacent) tumors.  Though one had mysteriously disappeared when the
post-surgery pathology was done.  The only flexibility I've had in
this situation was that I could have chosen a mastectomy.  I had some
good reasons for not wanting that.  I've only been able to face one
grueling step of this process at a time, then steel myself all over
again for the next.

Thanks again, Ixia, Mary, Judy, Tim and Fortunata.

Les
Tim Jackson - 02 Jul 2008 17:36 GMT
> Thanks for the encouragement and illumination, all.  Yes, I realize
> I'm dealing with a phobia here, but the consequences of the nuke tests
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> major population center excluded from compensation.  But now southern
> Idaho is crusading to be compensated.

No-one is saying that the *health* effects of fallout is trivial.  But
that is not the question.  The question is whether combining that with
the effects of radiotherapy produces more than the simple sum of the two
risks.  I don't see any reason why it should.  And if is doesn't then
fallout is not a relevant factor in the radiotherapy decision because
the health cost of the radiotherapy (on the cost/benefit balance) is not
increased.

Tim
Ixia - 02 Jul 2008 18:22 GMT
> Thanks for the encouragement and illumination, all.  Yes, I realize
> I'm dealing with a phobia here, but the consequences of the nuke tests
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Anyway, I will talk to the radiation doctor and ask about things like
> nuke test exposure and lung spillover.

Great - write your questions down ahead of time :-)

> However, I heard questions are
> ignored at our radiation place.

Don't make the error that most people make, that of assuming that
reading and speculating can give you knowledge that can /only be yours
through your own experience/. Go with an open mind. You have nothing
to lose and much to gain :-)

> The only flexibility I've had in
> this situation was that I could have chosen a mastectomy.

That's actually a /huge/ flexibility you still have right now - you
can choose to keep your breast! - and - If you choose to go with
radiation you'll have the same protection a mastectomy would have
given you.

Please don't think I'm nit-picking with you. I'm hoping you'll see
that habitual thoughts,  fears and so on (our own and other's) do not
automatically reflect the reality of the situation. Investigate
calmly, ask yourself: Am I sure? Why do I think this?

Wishing you the best possible outcome! :-)

Ixia
fortunata - 02 Jul 2008 20:42 GMT
> That's actually a /huge/ flexibility you still have right now - you
> can choose to keep your breast! - and - If you choose to go with
> radiation you'll have the same protection a mastectomy would have
> given you.

it's true that lumpectomy+rads give same protection as mastectomy; but you
still have to have mammograms on the remaining breast tissue, and there are
more places for it to "recur." at least I tell myself that. I know you can
get a recurrence on the mastectomy side too. but I had SO many suspicious
areas on that side, starting when I was about 20....so, as the Red Queen
said (paraphrasing) "off with his head!" do I have regrets? sometimes. but
.... as others have said, you can always have the mastectomy later. I
sometimes think of having one on the other side too.

> Please don't think I'm nit-picking with you. I'm hoping you'll see
> that habitual thoughts,  fears and so on (our own and other's) do not
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Ixia
Gry - 02 Jul 2008 21:29 GMT
> > That's actually a /huge/ flexibility you still have right now - you
> > can choose to keep your breast! - and - If you choose to go with
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> still have to have mammograms on the remaining breast tissue, and there are
> more places for it to "recur." at least I tell myself that.

It's not only something you tell yourself, it's reality. My oncologist
recommended lumpectomy - "You can always have a mastectomy!" but made
it crystal clear that I might Indeed have bad margins, or a
recurrence, and need more surgery, or a mastectomy later. "That's not
going to influence your mortality". Perhaps so, but for me, enough is
enough already...

An acquaintance had 3 surgeries - one lumpectomy and 2 bad-margin
fixes.

I have already had a biopsy of a lump growing in the scar tissue.
Benign, "suture granuloma", but a real pain in the neck. I understand
that it will be like that from now on - everything has to be checked,
checked, checked - but I want as few opportunities as possible. Off
with it's head, indeed! :-) My left chest is smooth - I like that I
can see and feel everything that is going on.

> I know you can
> get a recurrence on the mastectomy side too. but I had SO many suspicious
> areas on that side, starting when I was about 20....so, as the Red Queen
> said (paraphrasing) "off with his head!" do I have regrets? sometimes.

I don't. (Although it's only been 6 months). I look at myself naked in
the mirror every morning and laugh: That's what joyfully alive looks
like!

I can always have a reconstruction later.

>but
> .... as others have said, you can always have the mastectomy later.
>
>I sometimes think of having one on the other side too.

That was my plan last year at this time, to get a diep flap and 2 new
boobs this month. Tummy-tuck thrown in, a great plastic surgeon lined
up. I have changed my mind though.

I want to enjoy my life, do my work, be with my friends and family. No
self-induced misery, mental or physical for me.

Ixia
fortunata - 03 Jul 2008 00:24 GMT
It's not only something you tell yourself, it's reality. My oncologist
recommended lumpectomy

mine recommended mastectomy because I had two areas and because I'd already
had a large piece taken out for earlier biopsy. I was going to end up with
bad asthetics either way, LOL

I have already had a biopsy of a lump growing in the scar tissue.

I don't like hearing that, only six months later? yikes. they can't
mammogram my tumor area now, not with the implant there.

That was my plan last year at this time, to get a diep flap and 2 new
boobs this month. Tummy-tuck thrown in, a great plastic surgeon lined
up. I have changed my mind though.

I couldn't do diep flap even if I did want to chance messing up abdominal
muscles; my stomach is flat, so there's no material to take anyway.

don't get fake boobs, they're FAKE, and they need replacement eventually!
and things can GO WRONG. capsular contracture, hematoma (I had that),
clostridium dificile (had that), even...er....death.

I want to enjoy my life, do my work, be with my friends and family. No
self-induced misery, mental or physical for me.

great!

Ixia
Mary Fisher - 03 Jul 2008 09:09 GMT
..

<regrets>

> I don't. (Although it's only been 6 months). I look at myself naked in
the mirror every morning and laugh: That's what joyfully alive looks
like!

That's what I think when I see my lumpectomy scar :-)

...

> (it) was my plan last year at this time, to get a diep flap and 2 new
boobs this month. Tummy-tuck thrown in, a great plastic surgeon lined
up. I have changed my mind though.

> I want to enjoy my life, do my work, be with my friends and family. No
self-induced misery, mental or physical for me.

Good for you! Life's too short to waste on unnecessary procedures.

Although I am going to the hairdresser next week ... :-)

Mary
Ixia - 03 Jul 2008 11:46 GMT
> > Noself-induced misery, mental or physical for me.
>
> Good for you! Life's too short to waste on unnecessary procedures.
>
> Although I am going to the hairdresser next week ... :-)

Going to the hairdresser isn't misery!  Not unnecessary either, for
women who actually have hair :-) I shaved mine off when it started
falling out by the fistful.

While I was bald, I really noticed other people's hair. Lots and lots
of people are completely bald, but they are all men. Men who shave
their heads are viewed as cool and handsome, not so bald women. That
annoys me. Of course, loosing your eye-lashes and brows does not
exactly do wonders for your looks...

While I was bald, my wonderful son actually made me believe that he
thought I looked cool. (I freely admit that chemo did strange things
to my thinking! ;-) The wig was too uncomfortable and insane looking,
so most of the time I put on lipstick and ear-rings and went without.
I could tell it bothered some people a little, but I hardened myself.
I never saw another bald woman, but I have seen two lately. They got a
"you go, girl!" from me.

By now I have a full head of hair again - very short, but  I like it.
I'm going to keep it short, at least while it is still curly.

Ixia
Tim Jackson - 03 Jul 2008 13:45 GMT
> Lots and lots
> of people are completely bald, but they are all men. Men who shave
> their heads are viewed as cool and handsome

Odd that. I often wondered if it works for bald guys.  Can I, by shaving
off what remains, be instantly transformed from old bald git to cool
handsome dude?  ;-)  At least I'd lose the grey.

Tim
Mary Fisher - 03 Jul 2008 13:49 GMT
>> Lots and lots
>> of people are completely bald, but they are all men. Men who shave
>> their heads are viewed as cool and handsome
>
> Odd that. I often wondered if it works for bald guys.  Can I, by shaving
> off what remains, be instantly transformed from old bald git

You're not an old bald git. Well, not old and not a git. And there's nothing
wrong with grey, it suits some of us.

I much prefer proper bald to shaven bald on men. I certainly don't view
shaven headed men as cool or handsome, just daft.

Mary
Ixia - 03 Jul 2008 20:56 GMT
> > Lots and lots
> > of people are completely bald, but they are all men. Men who shave
> > their heads are viewed as cool and handsome
>
> Odd that. I often wondered if it works for bald guys.  

My independent research into the matter thus far seems to indicate
that most of the shaved, male heads were formerly bald, yes.

> Can I, by shaving
> off what remains, be instantly transformed from old bald git to cool
> handsome dude?  ;-)  

That's right - although watch out - in Mary's opinion at least, shaven
headed men are neither cool nor handsome, just daft ;-D  But I have a
feeling she's right in pronouncing you no old git:-)

Ixia
Mary Fisher - 04 Jul 2008 10:33 GMT
On Jul 3, 8:45 am, Tim Jackson <t...@tim-jackson.co.uk> wrote:
> Ixia wrote:
> > Lots and lots
> > of people are completely bald, but they are all men. Men who shave
> > their heads are viewed as cool and handsome
>
> Odd that. I often wondered if it works for bald guys.

My independent research into the matter thus far seems to indicate
that most of the shaved, male heads were formerly bald, yes.

> Can I, by shaving
> off what remains, be instantly transformed from old bald git to cool
> handsome dude? ;-)

That's right - although watch out - in Mary's opinion at least, shaven
headed men are neither cool nor handsome, just daft ;-D  But I have a
feeling she's right in pronouncing you no old git:-)

Oh I am - I've had the great pleasure and privilege of meeting him :-)

Mary
Mary Fisher - 03 Jul 2008 13:59 GMT
On Jul 3, 4:09 am, "Mary Fisher" <mary.fis...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:

> > Noself-induced misery, mental or physical for me.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Going to the hairdresser isn't misery!

I'm not used to it and I'm not looking forward to the 'music' in the salon
nor the inane twitter of the 'stylist', who will assume that I want to look
either beautiful or like all the other 69yo women she's ever dealt with.

> Not unnecessary either, for
women who actually have hair :-) I shaved mine off when it started
falling out by the fistful.

It's normally unecessary because I cut my own but I'd like it to be smart
for the cruise. Normally it doesn't matter, in the garden, under a crash
helmet or doing stuff in the house it's certainly not necessary to look
smart.

> While I was bald, I really noticed other people's hair. Lots and lots
of people are completely bald, but they are all men.

When I was (shaven) bald I saw quite a few shaven-headed women, it was
fashionable at that time (1993). I enjoyed it too, it was literally cool and
neded no attention.

> Men who shave
their heads are viewed as cool and handsome,

Not by everyone.

> not so bald women.

I had compliments.

> That
annoys me.

Well, if that's the only thing which annoys you you're very lucky :-)

> Of course, loosing your eye-lashes and brows does not
exactly do wonders for your looks...

And looks aren't everything. Look, if you saw a man or woman - oir child -
with no facial or head hair, would you think they looked ugly? If you
wouldn't why should others? I think you're talking about your own perception
of yourself. It's otherwise called vanity ... :-)

> While I was bald, my wonderful son actually made me believe that he
thought I looked cool. (I freely admit that chemo did strange things
to my thinking! ;-)

Our children and grandchildren liked mine too. They weren't lying or trying
to flatter. Why should they?

> The wig was too uncomfortable and insane looking,

I agree. Not that I tried one, why should I'?

> so most of the time I put on lipstick and ear-rings and went without.
I could tell it bothered some people a little,

How could you tell that? And if it did bother them, it's THEIR problm, not
yours :-)

> but I hardened myself.
I never saw another bald woman, but I have seen two lately. They got a
"you go, girl!" from me.

So they didn't look odd!

> By now I have a full head of hair again - very short, but  I like it.
I'm going to keep it short, at least while it is still curly.

Curls are a nuisance, I think. But we have what we have, like the colour.
I'm happy now that I've learned sense, I used to want straight hair but now
I realise that it's simply not important.

Don't judge a book by its cover :-)

Mary
Ixia - 03 Jul 2008 20:54 GMT
> It's normally unecessary because I cut my own but I'd like it to be smart
> for the cruise.

Where are you going?

> Normally it doesn't matter, in the garden, under a crash
> helmet or doing stuff in the house it's certainly not necessary to look
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> When I was (shaven) bald I saw quite a few shaven-headed women, it was
> fashionable at that time (1993).

The Sinéad O'Connor effect. It didn't last in this neck of the woods.
The bald woman of 2007 was Britney Spears ;-)

> I enjoyed it too, it was literally cool and
> neded no attention.

True. But when winter rolled around, my head got weirdly cold? Weird
because my face and hands did not feel cold at all.

> > Men who shave
>
> > their heads are viewed as cool and handsome,
>
> Not by everyone.

That's true, I was referring to the culture around me, not to personal
preference. (but I do find it handsome)

> > not so bald women.
>
> I had compliments.

I was complimented on the roundness of my head :-D By the time I had a
few millimeters of hair, I did get compliments on my "cut"! Still do.

When my hair had grown to about 1/2 an inch all over my head, found
myself in the check-out line at a local super-marked. The teller was a
very handsome, very young man. With his own shaved head, he looked
like an athlete from the near-by college. “Nice hair-cut!’ he
exclaimed when he saw me. He was so young and lively that I just burst
out laughing and told him it wasn’t a cut, just my hair growing back
after falling out from chemo! He looked stricken for a moment, but
seeing how happy I was, he went on to tell me that he had just shaved
off his own hair the night before. “Its great! So easy, I just take a
shower and I’m done!” We saw eye to eye on that one :-)

> > That
> > annoys me.
>
> Well, if that's the only thing which annoys you you're very lucky :-)

Amen.

> > Of course, loosing your eye-lashes and brows does not
> > exactly do wonders for your looks...
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> wouldn't why should others? I think you're talking about your own perception
> of yourself. It's otherwise called vanity ... :-)

I admit to a certain amount of vanity, but I think there is more too
it than that.

> > While I was bald, my wonderful son actually made me believe that he
> > thought I looked cool. (I freely admit that chemo did strange things
> > to my thinking! ;-)
>
> Our children and grandchildren liked mine too. They weren't lying or trying
> to flatter. Why should they?

Why indeed. H. C. Andersen's fairy tale about the swine-hearders
little daughter: "Don't you know that to every child, their mother is
the most beautiful?"

> > The wig was too uncomfortable and insane looking,
>
> I agree. Not that I tried one, why should I'?

I got it because all my doctors and nurses /insisted/ I needed one.

> > so most of the time I put on lipstick and ear-rings and went without.
> > I could tell it bothered some people a little,
>
> How could you tell that? And if it did bother them, it's THEIR problm, not
> yours :-)

When people looked away with pained looks on their faces, I assumed
they were bothered. I agree it was their problem, not mine, but it
took me a little time to figure that one out. Here in the US at least,
illness, death, poverty is rarely dealt with realistically, head on.
Going along with that by hiding did not sit well with me.

> > but I hardened myself.
>
> I never saw another bald woman, but I have seen two lately. They got a
> "you go, girl!" from me.
>
> So they didn't look odd!

They looked like they were clawing their way back to life. Pretty darn
good. People with breast-cancer unite in baldness! ;-)

Ixia
Mary Fisher - 04 Jul 2008 10:37 GMT
On Jul 3, 8:59 am, "Mary Fisher" <mary.fis...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:

> It's normally unecessary because I cut my own but I'd like it to be smart
> for the cruise.

Where are you going?

> Normally it doesn't matter, in the garden, under a crash
> helmet or doing stuff in the house it's certainly not necessary to look
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> When I was (shaven) bald I saw quite a few shaven-headed women, it was
> fashionable at that time (1993).

The Sinéad O'Connor effect.

That's the one. Although my line was that I looked more like the self-styled
'fat bastard' Alexis Sayle. Never get that spelling right ...

> I enjoyed it too, it was literally cool and
> neded no attention.

True. But when winter rolled around, my head got weirdly cold? Weird
because my face and hands did not feel cold at all.

My hair had grown by the time the cold weather came. It's short anyway so I
rarely notice the cold.

> > Men who shave
>
> > their heads are viewed as cool and handsome,
>
> Not by everyone.

That's true, I was referring to the culture around me, not to personal
preference. (but I do find it handsome)

> > not so bald women.
>
> I had compliments.

I was complimented on the roundness of my head :-D By the time I had a
few millimeters of hair, I did get compliments on my "cut"! Still do.

When my hair had grown to about 1/2 an inch all over my head, found
myself in the check-out line at a local super-marked. The teller was a
very handsome, very young man. With his own shaved head, he looked
like an athlete from the near-by college. “Nice hair-cut!’ he
exclaimed when he saw me. He was so young and lively that I just burst
out laughing and told him it wasn’t a cut, just my hair growing back
after falling out from chemo! He looked stricken for a moment, but
seeing how happy I was, he went on to tell me that he had just shaved
off his own hair the night before. “Its great! So easy, I just take a
shower and I’m done!” We saw eye to eye on that one :-)

Yes. funny that people get so embarrassed. someone was overcome with it when
she asked Spouse why I'd shaved my head and he said I'd had brain surgery.

It would have prepared her for her husband's similar experience if he hadn't
always shaved his head :-)

Mary
downwinder - 04 Jul 2008 19:57 GMT
> On Jul 3, 8:59 am, "Mary Fisher" <mary.fis...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
>
> Mary

Hublet and I both have hair past our shoulders.  I'd be very mad at
him if he shaved his head!  Back when we lived in Utah, the leukemia
rate was extremely high among us nuke test downwinders, so we'd often
see children that had gone bald from chemo.  But I must say I really
enjoyed it when my friend shaved her head.  It was fun running my hand
over her smooth crown.

Les
pumpkin - 05 Jul 2008 02:32 GMT
Hublet and I both have hair past our shoulders.  I'd be very mad at
him if he shaved his head!

Men. should. not. shave. anything. Anywhere. Anytime.
Mary Fisher - 05 Jul 2008 08:54 GMT
> Hublet and I both have hair past our shoulders.  I'd be very mad at
> him if he shaved his head!
>
> Men. should. not. shave. anything. Anywhere. Anytime.

Nor should women!

Mary
pumpkin - 05 Jul 2008 18:58 GMT
>> Hublet and I both have hair past our shoulders.  I'd be very mad at
>> him if he shaved his head!
>>
>> Men. should. not. shave. anything. Anywhere. Anytime.
>
> Nor should women!

many workplaces fire women who have hair in their armpits.

> Mary
Tim Jackson - 05 Jul 2008 19:24 GMT
>>> Hublet and I both have hair past our shoulders.  I'd be very mad at
>>> him if he shaved his head!
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> many workplaces fire women who have hair in their armpits.

WHAT?!

I'm pretty sure that would be illegal here, at least unless it also
applied to men.

Tim
pumpkin - 06 Jul 2008 02:26 GMT
where I live you can fire someone for raising an eyebrow, for walking a
particular way, or....for anything. cologne (or lack of), arriving early,
leaving late, talking or not talking. it's called "employment at will." if
your employer decides he doesn't like you, so long.

only clear-cut cases of discrimination based on "race" (an anthropologically
invalid designator, and one I find odious), specific disability, or sex
.....are illegal...but winning a case is nearly impossible and few attorneys
will take them. I've had clients who were fired for being fat, for being
old, for crying, for not going to lunch with the girls....
>>>> Hublet and I both have hair past our shoulders.  I'd be very mad at
>>>> him if he shaved his head!
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Tim
Mary Fisher - 06 Jul 2008 09:58 GMT
...

> ...  "race" (an anthropologically invalid designator, and one I find
> odious),

Oh how I agree with that!

I refuse to fill in the parts of forms which ask about my 'ethnicity'.
Interestingly, the answers to that question are always optional - so what's
the point in wasting paper?

Mary
pumpkin - 07 Jul 2008 01:54 GMT
I don't fill it in either, or I put "other" if something is required. I do
know why some organizations want it, but how do you define the term, anyway?
ridiculous. "Race" was invented to divide.

> ...
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Mary
Mary Fisher - 06 Jul 2008 09:54 GMT
>>> Hublet and I both have hair past our shoulders.  I'd be very mad at
>>> him if he shaved his head!
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> many workplaces fire women who have hair in their armpits.

No! Really? I've never heard of that - what sort of places?

I certainly wouldn't work anywhere which made such senseless rules.

At a party last night I was talking to a young woman with a stud in her
lower lip. Now I don't like such things and can't see the point, they don't
enhance the appearance - but I think the same about earrings :-)

This girl works in the county court and she says that at work she must
remove the stud - because it wasn't seemly to talk to judges wearing it.

The judges, I think wouldn't care two hoots about it. They wear wigs ...

Mary

>> Mary
pumpkin - 07 Jul 2008 01:16 GMT
I have zero romantic/physical interest in men without hair on their faces.
I've been this way my whole life, no idea why but there it is.

Employers here in my town, some of them, say "no obvious piercings" or
"maxim of two piercings." A woman who sings in a band here has studs and
piercings in both eyebrows, both sides of her nose, lips/tongue,
ears.....navel. and labia I am sure also.
metal detectors must love her

I like earrings but not on men. Again, I don't know why.

>>>> Hublet and I both have hair past our shoulders.  I'd be very mad at
>>>> him if he shaved his head!
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>>>
>>> Mary
Mary Fisher - 07 Jul 2008 10:39 GMT
>I have zero romantic/physical interest in men without hair on their faces.
>I've been this way my whole life, no idea why but there it is.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> ears.....navel. and labia I am sure also.
> metal detectors must love her

To say nothing of scanner technicians :-)

Mary
fortunata - 09 Jul 2008 02:03 GMT
it seemed time to change the subject line

>>I have zero romantic/physical interest in men without hair on their faces.
>>I've been this way my whole life, no idea why but there it is.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Mary
downwinder - 06 Jul 2008 15:09 GMT
> > Hublet and I both have hair past our shoulders.  I'd be very mad at
> > him if he shaved his head!
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Mary

I stopped shaving my legs at age 21 after cutting myself badly.
They're very hairy and attract a lot of attention, but I figure people
need an education.  I have long shapely legs and the hair is blonde,
so it's a good advertisement for hairy legs.  I'm not making any
converts though; I very rarely see a fellow non-shaver.
Mary Fisher - 06 Jul 2008 16:16 GMT
On Jul 5, 12:54 am, "Mary Fisher" <mary.fis...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> "pumpkin" <billowr...@att.net> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Mary

> I stopped shaving my legs at age 21 after cutting myself badly.
They're very hairy and attract a lot of attention, but I figure people
need an education.

Hurrah!

>  I have long shapely legs and the hair is blonde,
so it's a good advertisement for hairy legs.  I'm not making any
converts though; I very rarely see a fellow non-shaver.

Do you look?

I can't say I've ever noticed the hair or lack of it on women's legs.  I
have hairy legs, the hair is dark although the growth is not as heavy as it
was in my teens and twenties. I've always worn shorts a lot (yes, still do,
at my age!) and nobody ever bothered about them. As with baldness, if it
bothers some people that's their problem, not mine.

Mary
Eva - 07 Jul 2008 02:50 GMT
On Jul 5, 12:54 am, "Mary Fisher" <mary.fis...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> "pumpkin" <billowr...@att.net> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Nor should women!

I stopped shaving my legs at age 21 after cutting myself badly.
They're very hairy and attract a lot of attention, but I figure people
need an education.  I have long shapely legs and the hair is blonde,
so it's a good advertisement for hairy legs.  I'm not making any
converts though; I very rarely see a fellow non-shaver.
---------------
I lost all my body hair during chemo and most of it never grew back.  I have
2 hairs in my left armpit, and about 7 hairs on each leg.  So I don't bother
to shave.

Eva
Mary Fisher - 07 Jul 2008 10:51 GMT
> On Jul 5, 12:54 am, "Mary Fisher" <mary.fis...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>> "pumpkin" <billowr...@att.net> wrote in message
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Eva

Did you shave before then, Eva?

I only once decided to shave my legs, on my wedding day. I did one then the
bridesmaids had to go into the bathroom and by the time they'd finished
there wasn't time for me to do the other leg.

As I walked down the nave I was very conscious of one bald and one hairy
leg - albeit covered by stockings - but in relaity I'm sure nobody was
looking.

It doesn't show on the pictures :-)

Mary
Eva - 07 Jul 2008 11:27 GMT
>> I lost all my body hair during chemo and most of it never grew back.  I
>> have 2 hairs in my left armpit, and about 7 hairs on each leg.  So I
>> don't bother to shave.
>>
> Did you shave before then, Eva?
--------------
Yes.  In my part of the world female body hair is considered abhorrent.
Eva
fortunata - 07 Jul 2008 23:55 GMT
> As I walked down the nave I was very conscious of one bald and one hairy
> leg - albeit covered by stockings - but in relaity I'm sure nobody was
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Mary

that's a funny story.
Mary Fisher - 05 Jul 2008 08:54 GMT
> Hublet and I both have hair past our shoulders.

Spouse's hair is below his shoulders. It starts very low down though, his
dome is smooth and polished :-)

>  I'd be very mad at
him if he shaved his head!

I wouldn't be made, it's up to him what he does, but I wouldn't like it. He
keeps saying he wouldn't mind if I trimmed it for the cruise but he'll have
to ask properly, not just hint.

> ... I must say I really
enjoyed it when my friend shaved her head.  It was fun running my hand
over her smooth crown.

Yes, that was the best thing about mine, every morning, forwards and
backwards, experiencing every stroke. Wouldn't want to do it to a man
though!

Mary
Ixia - 02 Jul 2008 21:37 GMT
> > That's actually a /huge/ flexibility you still have right now - you
> > can choose to keep your breast! - and - If you choose to go with
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> still have to have mammograms on the remaining breast tissue, and there are
> more places for it to "recur." at least I tell myself that.

It's not only something you tell yourself, it's reality. My oncologist
recommended lumpectomy - "You can always have a mastectomy!" but made
it crystal clear that I might Indeed have bad margins, or a
recurrence, and need more surgery, or a mastectomy later. "That's not
going to influence your mortality". Perhaps so, but for me, enough is
enough already...

An acquaintance had 3 surgeries - one lumpectomy and 2 bad-margin
fixes.

I have already had a biopsy of a lump growing in the scar tissue.
Benign, "suture granuloma", but a real pain in the neck. I understand
that it will be like that from now on - everything has to be checked,
checked, checked - but I want as few opportunities as possible. Off
with it's head, indeed! :-) My left chest is smooth - I like that I
can see and feel everything that is going on.

> I know you can
> get a recurrence on the mastectomy side too. but I had SO many suspicious
> areas on that side, starting when I was about 20....so, as the Red Queen
> said (paraphrasing) "off with his head!" do I have regrets? sometimes.

I don't. (Although it's only been 6 months). I look at myself naked in
the mirror every morning and laugh: That's what joyfully alive looks
like! I can always have a reconstruction later if I want to.

>but
> .... as others have said, you can always have the mastectomy later.
>I sometimes think of having one on the other side too.

That was my plan last year at this time, to get a diep flap and 2 new
boobs this month. Tummy-tuck throw in, an artist of a plastic surgeon
lined up. I have changed my mind though. I want to enjoy my life, do
my work, be with my friends and family. No self-induced misery, mental
or physical, for me.

Ixia
 
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