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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Breast Cancer / November 2003

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Lymphedema & Hornet/YellowJacket Sting

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su-texas@webtv.net - 11 Nov 2003 19:09 GMT
I've just been stung, probably by a hornet or yellow-jacket, on my
left-side/lower-back area.  

I saw them going into the ground by a rotted stump, near where I was
working, ... but I didn't see them flying around, so I figured I was
sorta safe.  [I was putting up some temporary fencing for the dogs.]

I'm concerned that this sting might cause the lymphedema to
super-kick-in, & cause major swelling.

I put hydrocortisone cream on the sting, took a Benadryl capsule, & am
now resting while trying to cool off.  It's warm & very humid today.

I'm considering walking across the road to buy some ice for the sting,
.. but not right now.  Major pain!

Did anyone have swelling from lymphedema, after hornet sting?

Ouch! Ouch! Ouch!

Susan, Su_Texas  my opinions
Kaye301 - 11 Nov 2003 19:43 GMT
Su wrote << I'm concerned that this sting might cause the lymphedema to
super-kick-in, & cause major swelling.>>

Yikes and ouch.  I know that there is concern about stings in those who have
lymphedema and/or are stung on side that lymph nodes were removed.  My
suggestion is that you contact your health care facility and/or P.T. who
treated you for lymphedema.  They may want additional precautions taken--one
thought that came to mind was short course of prednisone (I have no idea
whether or not that would be indicated  but thought that or possibly something
else could be given to reduce risk of future problem(s)).
Mary Fisher - 11 Nov 2003 21:41 GMT
> I've just been stung, probably by a hornet or yellow-jacket, on my
> left-side/lower-back area.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Did anyone have swelling from lymphedema, after hornet sting?

As a beekeeper I've always been very concerned about this so looked into it.

as I understand it a sting - or any other damage - won't CAUSE lympho. If a
sting (or other damage) is a vector for infection and happens where lympho
is already present it could be a problem - because of the reduced immunity
in that area.

The advice was always to seek medical help if a lympho area is damaged so
that an antibiotic can be administered.

The damage won't cause lympho and won't make it worse if on a lympho area,
the potential problem is infection.

So saying, I've had horrible damage to my lympho arm from almost everything
except stings and bites - scrapes, cuts, pricks, burns ... and never been
infected.

> Ouch! Ouch! Ouch!

Indeed - but that's only the local reaction to the sting. So will any
swelling be.

Mary

> Susan, Su_Texas  my opinions
Mary Fisher - 11 Nov 2003 22:28 GMT
As an addendum to my previous post:

In a report in the scientific journal Nature, Japanese scientists at
Tamagawa University in Japan suggest that wasps and hornets may be provoked
into attacking by sensing some of the chemicals used in perfume making and
food preparation. They extracted a number of volatile chemicals from a
pheromone of the worlds largest hornet, Vespa mandarina and found that this
extract caused intense alarm and defensive behaviour amongst the hornets.
The chemicals triggering the behaviour (2-pentanol, 3-methyle1-1-butanol and
1-methylbuti1 3-methylbutanoate) are found in some cosmetics and fragrances
as well as some manufactured foods. An entomologist at Griffith University
in Brisbane Australia, Professor R Kitching said that the reaction of
insects to smells on human beings is not an unusual effect which is why some
people are more susceptible to mosquitoes for example than others. He also
added that some women are more prone to wasp attack during menstruation. So
if you wear a perfume and get attacked, avoid it next time.

Mary
Msrebug - 11 Nov 2003 23:32 GMT
I was stung by a bee in the arm of my mastectomy and worried about the same
thing.  Nothing  happened however,although the bee sting was 10 years later
after surgery.
J - 12 Nov 2003 10:35 GMT
> I've just been stung, probably by a hornet or yellow-jacket, on my
> left-side/lower-back area.
>
> I saw them going into the ground by a rotted stump, near where I was
> working, ... but I didn't see them flying around, so I figured I was
> sorta safe.  [I was putting up some temporary fencing for the dogs.]

Protecting the nest and queen.
You'll have to stay away from there and/or make sure more don't take
residence in your home..eaves, under porches, crawlspaces, foundations,
any holes they can find.  Perhaps the dogs will get bit too and/or their
noise will drive them to "nest" elsewhere where you don't want them?

I've gotten rid of several nests over the past few years...they rebuild.
It would take a beekeeper's equipment I think to get a nest out of a
stump.
One must find a way to deprive the nest/queen of food and water (and keep
the workers from supplying more).
I did it with plastic bags and duct tape when they settled around a car.

Hugs
J
su-texas@webtv.net - 12 Nov 2003 12:25 GMT
Thanks yall.  I seem to be doing sorta OK.  The place formed a
burn-looking thing, about two inches in diameter.  

I initially treated it with hydrocortisone cream, & took a Benadryl
capsule.  Hours later, I started to use aloe vera gel, to try to keep
the area from getting infected.

I fixed a hanging trap (with pineapple, sugar, canned cat food), & hung
it near the swarming hive(?).  Also fixed a plastic jug, with mix of
tomato sauce, pineapple, sugar, dry cat food, & olive oil, & hung it
near the hive.  

They kept swarming for the rest of the day, so I couldn't let the pups
out.

After many hours, I tried spraying the hive with bug spray, but it
didn't phase them.  ???

Late evening, I went shopping for groceries. [Last day of sale].   The
grocery person said his dog (Pit Bull) had just been stung by a lot of
them yesterday.  

And one lady said one flew into her car yesterday, when she opened the
door.  ???

The fire ants were also out in force yesterday.  It was the second very
warm & humid day, which followed some cold & wet ones.

Today, I'll try pouring cooking oil down the hole, & covering it with
garbage bags.

???

Susan, Su_Texas  my opinions
J - 12 Nov 2003 18:21 GMT
> I fixed a hanging trap (with pineapple, sugar, canned cat food), & hung
> it near the swarming hive(?).  Also fixed a plastic jug, with mix of
> tomato sauce, pineapple, sugar, dry cat food, & olive oil, & hung it
> near the hive.

well, that could drown some of them but still doesn't get the nest
http://www.cce.cornell.edu/factsheets/pest-fact-sheets/old/ms.pst.stingsub.html

> After many hours, I tried spraying the hive with bug spray, but it
> didn't phase them.  ???

I don't like insecticides. I have pets who eat grass.
leftover silicone from implants..just kidding..
how about spray insulation? (to bury the nest)?

> And one lady said one flew into her car yesterday, when she opened the
> door.  ???

yes, that's what prompted me to get rid of the nests.  Otherwise I leave
them alone if they're not near the building or people.

> The fire ants were also out in force yesterday.  It was the second very
> warm & humid day, which followed some cold & wet ones.

Diatomaceous earth  ?  Works for a lot of bugs. Hardware or garden centres
have it (in various brands)

> Today, I'll try pouring cooking oil down the hole, & covering it with
> garbage bags.
>
> ???

the above says something about multiple exits.
J - 12 Nov 2003 18:39 GMT
> > Today, I'll try pouring cooking oil down the hole, & covering it with
> > garbage bags.

Sue, when I mentioned plastic bags, they were behind a car mirror.
I did not want to use pesticides.
So I totally enclosed the car mirror with bags and taped them shut.

The yellow jackets poked holes through several thicknesses to get in /out.
So I totally covered the bags with duct tape. They coudn't punch holes through
that.
Left it there for 3 weeks/a month, so they were cut off water/food and
"fried/dried" in the hot sun.
Then I removed the crumbly nest and remains of YJ's

In your situation, I don't think plastic will work.  The cooking oil will drain
down below and the yellow jackets outside will continue to come in..new females
will start if the Queen died from hot cooking oil..is my thinking on that.
Any YJ down there will be able to push their way back up beside the plastic or
through it..
They're determined little " beggers" and nasty too when getting anywhere near the
nest.
J
Mary Fisher - 12 Nov 2003 19:36 GMT
> > > Today, I'll try pouring cooking oil down the hole, & covering it with
> > > garbage bags.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> nest.
> J

More confusion ...
J - 12 Nov 2003 20:47 GMT
> More confusion ...

What part of "they can punch their way through plastic or get out/in around the
edges of it" if the plastic is not fully secured. do you not understand Mary?
How can a person possibly affix plastic to rough edges of the inside of a stump
without having being "leaks" they can get by?
J
Mary Fisher - 12 Nov 2003 22:01 GMT
> > More confusion ...
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> without having being "leaks" they can get by?
> J

No, you said, 'Left it there for 3 weeks/a month, so they were cut off
water/food and "fried/dried" in the hot sun.'

They would die within days, probably only two or three at the most, without
water.
J - 13 Nov 2003 00:07 GMT
> No, you said, 'Left it there for 3 weeks/a month, so they were cut off
> water/food and "fried/dried" in the hot sun.'
>
> They would die within days, probably only two or three at the most, without
> water.

Oh I see,
I was too scared in case they were still alive inside and the others were still
humming around outside the "nest".. "in attack mode" when I tried to put my ear
up against it to listen for sounds <g> so I waited extra time.
Thanks for explaining Mary.

This summer was more interesting. Flat area that I could not totally envelope.
I cut two pieces of duct tape and lightly dropped one on top of the small nest,
then amiidst angry workers buzzing at me, grabbed the nest and slapped the
other piece on the bottom, then tucked all the ends quickly together, then
wrapped the nest in double or triple bags, then disposed of them in the
garbage.  The ones left rebuilt within a week, so I repeated, then sprayed.
That was the end of them on the car, for this year...
Hugs
J - yellow jacket disposal service <g>
J - 12 Nov 2003 20:58 GMT
J wrote: Clarifying..hopefully

>   The cooking oil will drip
> down below the nest and the yellow jackets outside will continue to come in or the
> ones inside that didn't get "stuck" will be able to get out and continue to come
> back in to feed the queen....

New nests will be built in the same area (same queen or different queen),..happened
to me this summer after I removed the first nest (under lip of car trunk).  I cleaned
away all vesitiges of the "dead nest" that I'd earlier disposed of with the
plastic/duct tape method....then sprayed something toxic..they then did not come back
to that same place.
J.
su-texas, susan - 20 Nov 2003 22:42 GMT
> Thanks yall.  I seem to be doing sorta OK.  The place formed a
> burn-looking thing, about two inches in diameter.  
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> Susan, Su_Texas  my opinions

=========

Stung again.  (Dang!)

I've been working hard, trying to get the dogs ready for cold weather,
trying to repair/replace tarps that blew down in strong wind a few
days ago, trying to re-position & get dog houses ready, replacing &
lengthening chains, clearing more areas, etc.

Just now, I was at the hardware store. We stepped outside to get some
chain.  And the hornet/yellow jacket got me in the back, lower right
side this time.
I had on sweat pants & long t-shirt. The hornet must have landed on my
leg, & crawled up under the shirt to my lower back, in order to sting
me.  [What is the fascination that these hornets have with lower
backs?!]

The store didn't have a first-aid kit, ice or anything.  So I had to
wait & pay for purchase, then drive home to get some hydrocortisone
cream & take a Benadryl.

Now I gotta relax a bit, & hope I don't get sick.

Double-Dang & Big-Ouchies ... again.  (sigh)  Such is life.

Susan, Su_Texas  my opinions
Mary Fisher - 21 Nov 2003 18:22 GMT
> Just now, I was at the hardware store. We stepped outside to get some
> chain.  And the hornet/yellow jacket got me in the back, lower right
> side this time.

> I had on sweat pants & long t-shirt. The hornet must have landed on my
> leg, & crawled up under the shirt to my lower back, in order to sting
> me.

No it didn't do that. It was walking upwards, which is what they do when
they can't fly, it didn't want to be there at all. When your shirt moved
against it it felt threatened so used its sting as a defence.

Mary
Mary Fisher - 12 Nov 2003 18:16 GMT
> > I've just been stung, probably by a hornet or yellow-jacket, on my
> > left-side/lower-back area.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Hugs
> J

Sorry, J, but there's some confused thinking there ...

I've kept bees - and wasps - for 25 years and know a lot about both, I
suspect you're confused about the two types of insects, which don't have the
same natural history as each other.

Mary
J - 12 Nov 2003 18:23 GMT
> Sorry, J, but there's some confused thinking there ...

maybe ..I'm speaking about how to reach in and get the yellow jacket or wasp
nest out.
J
allan grossman - 21 Nov 2003 12:36 GMT
I'm generally a live-and-let-live kinda guy - you can ask the mole who
occupied my back yard for three years or so.  I think he died of old
age.

I had a nest of ground bees in my front yard this summer - a hole in
the ground about the size of a penny.  My wife told me to watch out
for bees as she'd seen the nest earlier.  I'd mowed the front yard a
couple of times without incident so I wasn't all that worried.  To
make a really long story short I mowed the lawn in late summer and
somehow offended the bees - as I now had a bee fountain in the front
yard.  I even let them have the lawn mower  :)

Anyway, I waited an hour or so for the bees to calm down and tried to
finish mowing the front lawn but the bees would have no part of the
idea.  Normally it wouldn't bother me because I don't like mowing the
lawn but this particular bee nest was about a foot from our front walk
and the bees were angry.

So - I went to the hardware store and ask the lady what I can do about
bees.  She says it's been a bad year for bees and points at some
aerosol wasp and hornet spray...

...that turned out to be completely worthless except that it was great
fun shooting the bees out of the air with the spray can and that
because the wasp spray had a petroleum base and I expended a couple
cans of it on the bees and their nest I managed to kill a patch of
grass around the bees' nest.  Didn't really affect the number of bees
but did really piss them off.

So I got on the Internet and started reading.  Found out that Sevin
dust (made by Ortho) is lethal to bees but relatively safe to handle.
Up until a couple years ago it was approved for dusting pet beds to
get rid of fleas and suck.  You can still use it on pets but not on
kittens or puppies.  Sounds reasonably safe.

So I went to another hardware store and bought a 1 lb can of Sevin and
the man behind the counter said it was the wrong time of year to be
dusting roses but he'd be happy to sell me the Sevin anyway.  I told
him that I wasn't dusting roses and explained about the bee fountain
in my front yard.  His response was that if I wanted to use Sevin it
would be effective but would probably kill every bee in the yard.  I
guess they carry it into the nest and it kills everybody in there.

I bought the stuff and used about an ounce in and around the hole.
Two days later the bees were gone and have not returned.

Apologies to beekeeper Mary as like I said, I'm generally a
live-and-let-live kinda guy.  But if one wants to get rid of bees the
method I mentioned is highly recommended.
su-texas@webtv.net - 21 Nov 2003 16:20 GMT
Thanks allan.  

Usually, I'm a live & let live type person too, but there are limits.

When a mouse comes inside the house, it dies.  And now that hornets are
stinging me, they do too.  

Once they get excited, they don't calm down, not even days or weeks
later.  Right now, they seem to be angry & swarming all over town, all
over this area.  ???

It's probably important to try early prevention, such as the
hornet/yellow-jacket traps you hang in trees.

I'll also try the Sevin dust, now that there are established colonies.  

Their food choices seem amazing.  They really like dog dung & decaying
dog food. ???  They'd probably also like decaying fruit & vegetables, if
there were any now.

Susan, Su_Texas  my opinions
Lbucc - 21 Nov 2003 17:32 GMT
Su wrote:

>Right now, they seem to be angry & swarming all over town, all
>over this area.  ???

If I recall, you've had some pretty strong winds lately.  I was on Cape Cod
during Hurricane Bob a few years ago.  The winds were so strong that they
destroyed the little buggers nests in the trees.  They were homeless and
pissed.  It was a trick to walk around the streets without getting lots of
bites.

Perhaps that's what's happening in your area.

...lisa
Mary Fisher - 21 Nov 2003 18:19 GMT
> If I recall, you've had some pretty strong winds lately.  I was on Cape Cod
> during Hurricane Bob a few years ago.  The winds were so strong that they
> destroyed the little buggers nests in the trees.  They were homeless and
> pissed.  It was a trick to walk around the streets without getting lots of
> bites.

BITES??????

Mary
Mary Fisher - 21 Nov 2003 18:18 GMT
> Apologies to beekeeper Mary as like I said, I'm generally a
> live-and-let-live kinda guy.  But if one wants to get rid of bees the
> method I mentioned is highly recommended.

I want to know what 'ground bees' are ...

Mary
Tim Jackson - 21 Nov 2003 22:49 GMT
> I want to know what 'ground bees' are ...

Well, I know that when Americans say "ground beef" they mean minced beef, so
I would guess ....

No, perhaps not.

Tim
Mary Fisher - 21 Nov 2003 22:54 GMT
> > I want to know what 'ground bees' are ...
>
> Well, I know that when Americans say "ground beef" they mean minced beef, so
> I would guess ....
>
> No, perhaps not.

LOL!

Shibden on the last weekend of November. Indoors this time.

Mary

> Tim
su-texas@webtv.net - 21 Nov 2003 23:00 GMT
Ground Bees?

These yellow bee-things live in the ground.  I don't know if they're
hornets or yellow jackets or what.

In this area, they're really upset & angry for some reason right now
(wind? weather?), & are flying around & stinging people.

They seem to be almost everything.  Outside the grocery store (which is
in a shopping center), the hardware store, ... my back steps & yard,
around my truck.

Susan, Su_Texas  my opinions
Kaye301 - 22 Nov 2003 17:11 GMT
Tim wrote << Well, I know that when Americans say "ground beef" they mean
minced beef, so
I would guess ....

No, perhaps not.

ROFL...never would have thought of that one...gross <g>
Mary Fisher - 22 Nov 2003 18:00 GMT
> > I want to know what 'ground bees' are ...
>
> Well, I know that when Americans say "ground beef" they mean minced beef, so
> I would guess ....
>
> No, perhaps not.

Well, we do grind bees' abdomens (in a mortar, not a mincer) when we're
looking for pathogens of a particular disease.

I don't think that's what AG meant though.

Mary

> Tim
allan grossman - 29 Nov 2003 16:33 GMT
>Well, we do grind bees' abdomens (in a mortar, not a mincer) when we're
>looking for pathogens of a particular disease.
>
>I don't think that's what AG meant though.

"Ground bees" look like honeybees sort of - they're a little smaller
and nest in abandoned mole tunnels and other holes in the ground.

I looked on the Internet and you might know them as mining or digger
bees.
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allan

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Sandy L - 29 Nov 2003 21:21 GMT
> >Well, we do grind bees' abdomens (in a mortar, not a mincer) when we're
> >looking for pathogens of a particular disease.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I looked on the Internet and you might know them as mining or digger
> bees.

In the US, there is a common creature called yellow jackets that live in
the ground and behave as those you describe.  Yellow jackets are
actually hornets or wasps--I don't know the difference.  A beekeeper I
worked with several years ago advised me to wait until early morning,
before they warmed up and were about, and pour a little gasoline (In
England, I suppose one uses petrol) down the hole, then turn over a
small spade full of earth to seal the opening.  It kills a small spot of
grass, but it worked like a charm.
 
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