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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Breast Cancer / May 2007

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Lymph Nodes Removal Question??

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Bea Oo - 19 May 2007 14:03 GMT
Something has been concerning me lately and I wonder if anyone here can
give me the answer or direct me to a website where I can find it.

When one is diagnosed with bc and they remove about 23 lymph nodes,
what if any adverse implication does this have on our body?.  

I don't think they "grow back" and they certainly must be in us for a
reason so does it cause us other medical problems being without the
nodes they had to remove?  Does it weaken our immune system or make us
more  susceptible  to other problems?  I know why the surgeon removes
them but don't understand what if any problems may occur due to the
removal.  Thanks for any info you can provide.

Bea

'NO FORWARDS OR SPAM, PLEASE"
Mary Fisher - 19 May 2007 14:24 GMT
> Something has been concerning me lately and I wonder if anyone here can
> give me the answer or direct me to a website where I can find it.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Bea

I was told that axillary node removal only affected the relevant arm, that's
why we're supposed to take very good care of that arm. Skin care was
stressed, not damaging is in any way, it's particularly susceptible to
infection which can be dangerous. I was careful at first but never bothered
with skin care - couldn't remember and my skin isn't drier on that arm than
the other.

There's also the problem of lymphoedema ... we were taught to very lightly
stroke the arm's skin in an upward direction. The theory was that this
encouraged the generation of tiny lymph nodes. I don't know if that theory
has gone by the board though.

Mary
x{yz}enophil44@hotmail.com - 19 May 2007 16:59 GMT
>There's also the problem of lymphoedema ... we were taught to very lightly
>stroke the arm's skin in an upward direction. The theory was that this
>encouraged the generation of tiny lymph nodes. I don't know if that theory
>has gone by the board though.

No-one told me to do that.  Do you think it helped in any way?  I still
have a certain amount of numbness on the back of my upper arm 19 months
later.
Signature

"It's easier to get forgiveness than permission."
Rear Admiral "Amazing" Grace Hopper

Mary Fisher - 19 May 2007 18:02 GMT
>>There's also the problem of lymphoedema ... we were taught to very lightly
>>stroke the arm's skin in an upward direction. The theory was that this
>>encouraged the generation of tiny lymph nodes. I don't know if that theory
>>has gone by the board though.
>
> No-one told me to do that.  Do you think it helped in any way?

No idea :-) But it feels nice when I remember to do it and made me think I
was doing something positive. It was my MacMillan Breast support Nurse who
said it.

> I still
> have a certain amount of numbness on the back of my upper arm 19 months
> later.

I have numbness under my arm sometimes and a dreadful occasional itching
which doesn't get any relief by scratching! That's nine years later.

While I itch I live <G>

Mary
A.P. Thorsen - 19 May 2007 21:41 GMT
>>There's also the problem of lymphoedema ... we were taught to very lightly
>>stroke the arm's skin in an upward direction. The theory was that this
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> have a certain amount of numbness on the back of my upper arm 19 months
> later.

The self-massage is related to movement of lymphatic fluid.  The theory is
that it helps the fluid move through the impaired area.

The numbness is a whole 'nother thing.   It arises because nerves are cut
during the surgery, so the area served by those nerves becomes numb.   The
nerves may regenerate, or not.  If they do, it's common to have unusual
symptoms around the time when sensation returns (burning, "electric"
feelings, itching, etc.), but those symptoms are usually temporary.  If
sensation returns, it seems to occur in sorta sudden increments.  That is,
the area doesn't just gradually become less numb, but rather you may get a
few days of funny sensations, then a chunk of the numb area is no longer
numb.

It's probably a false analogy, but I think of it as being like tiny wires
growing back toward each other to form an electric connection that carries
sensation from that area of muscle or skin to the larger nervous system &
eventually the brain.  When the wires get close to rejoining, there might be
some weak currents that jump/arc the small gap, causing the funny
sensations, and after the circuit completes, the brain may take a few days
to re-integrate the signals into one's body concept, also contributing to
funny sensations until the whole system is working smoothly.

I still have numbness 6 and a half years after surgery, but the numb area
has shrunk, via a non-gradual but incremental kind of process that feels as
I've described above.

Recently, I went to a lecture by a physiotherapist who specializes in
lymphedema.  She suggested self-massage if we noticed any slight swelling in
the arm, or if there was unusual discomfort, or if we'd been exposed to
risky conditions (minor injuries, unusual heat especially combined with
unusual exertion, etc.).  She also suggested holding the arm straight
overhead & clenching/unclenching the fist as another thing that could help
lymphatic fluid movement.  She wasn't recommending doing these things just
routinely for no reason.

She did encourage reasonable regular exercise levels to avoid lymphedema
risk, feeling that use of the arm and the movement of the muscle tissue
caused a sort of pumping effect that helped move lymphatic fluid.

Ann T.
Remove 'dontsendspam' from address to reply by email
Mary Fisher - 20 May 2007 10:16 GMT
>>>There's also the problem of lymphoedema ... we were taught to very
>>>lightly
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> The self-massage is related to movement of lymphatic fluid.  The theory is
> that it helps the fluid move through the impaired area.

Not in what we were taught, it's a very different kind of stroking, it
couldn't be called massage at all, we were taught that too :-) the light
stroking was akin to stroking the skin with a feather. Silmple Lymph
Drainage uses more pressure - but not squeezing ... and isn't limited to the
affected limb.  It's difficult to explain the difference without
demonstrating :-)

Mary
A.P. Thorsen - 20 May 2007 14:58 GMT
>> The self-massage is related to movement of lymphatic fluid.  The theory
>> is that it helps the fluid move through the impaired area.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> the affected limb.  It's difficult to explain the difference without
> demonstrating :-)

Yes. "Massage" was a misleading choice of words on my part.  I was also
talking about the light stroking of the affected limb, but the physio
specialist did tell us that it helped encourage lymphatic fluid movement, in
a way that was preventative of full lymphedema, not a treatment for it.

Apologies for unclarity,

Ann T.
Remove 'dontsendspam' from address to reply by email
Mari@net.ac - 19 May 2007 17:22 GMT
>There's also the problem of lymphoedema ... we were taught to very lightly
>stroke the arm's skin in an upward direction. The theory was that this
>encouraged the generation of tiny lymph nodes. I don't know if that theory
>has gone by the board though.
>
>Mary

The co-ordinator of the local support group I used to go to recommended
the brushing upward of all four limbs, ie towards the heart.  I did that
maybe twice.  

I do put polysporin on any scratches I get cutting roses or raspberry
canes but I'm not as careful as I should be lifting heavy objects.
Neither do I do the arm exercises often enough unless I have a checkup
coming up.  <g>

My last two trips to England I wore a special compression sleeve on the
flight, but I'm thinking of skipping that this time. I don't know yet.

Marilyn, lazy and a procrastinator
Tim Jackson - 19 May 2007 19:53 GMT
> Something has been concerning me lately and I wonder if anyone here can
> give me the answer or direct me to a website where I can find it.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> 'NO FORWARDS OR SPAM, PLEASE"

There are two main effects of removing the lymph nodes, one is increased
susceptibility to spread of infection from the affected arm (or breast),
should it get infected, the other is degraded lymph drainage.

The following is an engineer's view of how it works.

The lymph system is the hydraulic equivalent of an electrical earth
(ground) wire.  Fluid constantly diffuses from the high-pressure blood
circulation, and has to go somewhere or pressure will build up.  The
lymph ducts drain this fluid, combine it with nutrients from the
digestive system, and put it back into the circulatory system at a low
pressure point, a vein near the neck.

The axillary lymph nodes mostly drain the arm and the tissues of the
chest that are outside the rib cage.  The lymph system is a multiply
connected network, and there are other lesser drainage paths, the
breasts also connect to each other and to the liver for example.

The lymph nodes are like filters in the lymph system, and they are a
major killing field for the immune system.  Most invading organisms end
up in the lymph, and the nodes 'compost' anything infectious before
letting it into the blood stream.  The number of nodes present varies
considerably from individual to individual.

So removal of the nodes obviously degrades the immune protection; and
the physical damage (or the cancer itself) often causes constriction of
the lymph ducts, so that they do not relieve the diffusion pressure as
well as they should.  This way lies lymphedema.  Increased lymph
pressure causes the tissues to swell. This can either be because of
increased lymph flow, typically due to inflammation, or because reduced
outside pressure, e.g. when flying.  If this reaches a critical peak
pressure then the skin's elasticity fails and the whole arm becomes
permanently swollen.

Lymph massage, a gentle stroking of the limb towards the heart, produces
a peristalsis-like action, encouraging the flow of lymph through the
constriction and out of the limb, reducing any swelling.

Another poster mentioned chronic itching.  One must realise that the
axilla is something of a narrow pass in the anatomy with all the
services running close together (for Brits, it is the Watford Gap of the
body).  So it is pretty inevitable that a few nerves get cut while
removing the nodes.  These nerves will attempt to reconnect unless scar
tissue completely obstructs them, this process can take several years,
and can give rise to strange sensations such as itching, sudden stabbing
pains, or sometimes muscular twitches, as the nerves come back on line.

Tim Jackson
Mary Fisher - 19 May 2007 19:59 GMT
>> Something has been concerning me lately and I wonder if anyone here can
>> give me the answer or direct me to a website where I can find it.
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
>
> Tim Jackson
Mary Fisher - 19 May 2007 20:03 GMT
>>> Something has been concerning me lately and I wonder if anyone here can
>>> give me the answer or direct me to a website where I can find it.
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
>>
>> Tim Jackson

sorry - hit SEND too soon, it seems :-)

Tim's explanation augments what I said - he's good at that :-)

In my case the nerves don't seem to be coming 'back in line'.

Those in my scalp - fourteen years later - aren't doing either.

But I don't mind, the sensations are a reminder that I survived!

Mary
bartalo@webtv.net - 19 May 2007 21:30 GMT
>tim's explanation augments what I said - he's
> good at that :-)

>Mary

Wow!  He sure is, Mary.  I thank all of you who replied but Tim nailed
it for me!  I just want to know when he is going to get his medical
degree and move to my town and be an Oncologist!<g   I bet I never would
have gotten such a complete and detailed answer from the doc I use.
Thank you so much, Tim!

Bea

"NO FORWARDS OR SPAM, PLEASE"
Mary Fisher - 20 May 2007 10:19 GMT
> >tim's explanation augments what I said - he's
>> good at that :-)
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Bea

You're right Bea but Tim has more time than most doctors have, although the
surgeons we've had have given us all the time we've wanted - sometimes
leading to queues of other patients. I don't mind being in one of those
queues, it means that everyone has the chance to ask questions and isn't
hurried through.

Mary
p.s. you're not going to have Tim, he stays here with us, the north of
England!!!
Tim Jackson - 20 May 2007 16:39 GMT
> Wow!  He sure is, Mary.  I thank all of you who replied but Tim nailed
> it for me!  I just want to know when he is going to get his medical
> degree and move to my town and be an Oncologist!<g  

Yeah, sure, I could just do that in time to retire.

No, I think I'll stick at being the "worlds best" industrial diagnostic
engineer.

Anyway, the trick is not so much knowledge of medicine as the ability to
explain what little I do know, understandably.  Not an ability for which
doctors are noted.

Tim
 
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