Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Breast Cancer / May 2007
Lymph Nodes Removal Question??
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Bea Oo - 19 May 2007 14:03 GMT Something has been concerning me lately and I wonder if anyone here can give me the answer or direct me to a website where I can find it.
When one is diagnosed with bc and they remove about 23 lymph nodes, what if any adverse implication does this have on our body?.
I don't think they "grow back" and they certainly must be in us for a reason so does it cause us other medical problems being without the nodes they had to remove? Does it weaken our immune system or make us more susceptible to other problems? I know why the surgeon removes them but don't understand what if any problems may occur due to the removal. Thanks for any info you can provide.
Bea
'NO FORWARDS OR SPAM, PLEASE"
Mary Fisher - 19 May 2007 14:24 GMT > Something has been concerning me lately and I wonder if anyone here can > give me the answer or direct me to a website where I can find it. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Bea I was told that axillary node removal only affected the relevant arm, that's why we're supposed to take very good care of that arm. Skin care was stressed, not damaging is in any way, it's particularly susceptible to infection which can be dangerous. I was careful at first but never bothered with skin care - couldn't remember and my skin isn't drier on that arm than the other.
There's also the problem of lymphoedema ... we were taught to very lightly stroke the arm's skin in an upward direction. The theory was that this encouraged the generation of tiny lymph nodes. I don't know if that theory has gone by the board though.
Mary
x{yz}enophil44@hotmail.com - 19 May 2007 16:59 GMT >There's also the problem of lymphoedema ... we were taught to very lightly >stroke the arm's skin in an upward direction. The theory was that this >encouraged the generation of tiny lymph nodes. I don't know if that theory >has gone by the board though. No-one told me to do that. Do you think it helped in any way? I still have a certain amount of numbness on the back of my upper arm 19 months later.
 Signature "It's easier to get forgiveness than permission." Rear Admiral "Amazing" Grace Hopper
Mary Fisher - 19 May 2007 18:02 GMT >>There's also the problem of lymphoedema ... we were taught to very lightly >>stroke the arm's skin in an upward direction. The theory was that this >>encouraged the generation of tiny lymph nodes. I don't know if that theory >>has gone by the board though. > > No-one told me to do that. Do you think it helped in any way? No idea :-) But it feels nice when I remember to do it and made me think I was doing something positive. It was my MacMillan Breast support Nurse who said it.
> I still > have a certain amount of numbness on the back of my upper arm 19 months > later. I have numbness under my arm sometimes and a dreadful occasional itching which doesn't get any relief by scratching! That's nine years later.
While I itch I live <G>
Mary
A.P. Thorsen - 19 May 2007 21:41 GMT >>There's also the problem of lymphoedema ... we were taught to very lightly >>stroke the arm's skin in an upward direction. The theory was that this [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > have a certain amount of numbness on the back of my upper arm 19 months > later. The self-massage is related to movement of lymphatic fluid. The theory is that it helps the fluid move through the impaired area.
The numbness is a whole 'nother thing. It arises because nerves are cut during the surgery, so the area served by those nerves becomes numb. The nerves may regenerate, or not. If they do, it's common to have unusual symptoms around the time when sensation returns (burning, "electric" feelings, itching, etc.), but those symptoms are usually temporary. If sensation returns, it seems to occur in sorta sudden increments. That is, the area doesn't just gradually become less numb, but rather you may get a few days of funny sensations, then a chunk of the numb area is no longer numb.
It's probably a false analogy, but I think of it as being like tiny wires growing back toward each other to form an electric connection that carries sensation from that area of muscle or skin to the larger nervous system & eventually the brain. When the wires get close to rejoining, there might be some weak currents that jump/arc the small gap, causing the funny sensations, and after the circuit completes, the brain may take a few days to re-integrate the signals into one's body concept, also contributing to funny sensations until the whole system is working smoothly.
I still have numbness 6 and a half years after surgery, but the numb area has shrunk, via a non-gradual but incremental kind of process that feels as I've described above.
Recently, I went to a lecture by a physiotherapist who specializes in lymphedema. She suggested self-massage if we noticed any slight swelling in the arm, or if there was unusual discomfort, or if we'd been exposed to risky conditions (minor injuries, unusual heat especially combined with unusual exertion, etc.). She also suggested holding the arm straight overhead & clenching/unclenching the fist as another thing that could help lymphatic fluid movement. She wasn't recommending doing these things just routinely for no reason.
She did encourage reasonable regular exercise levels to avoid lymphedema risk, feeling that use of the arm and the movement of the muscle tissue caused a sort of pumping effect that helped move lymphatic fluid.
Ann T. Remove 'dontsendspam' from address to reply by email
Mary Fisher - 20 May 2007 10:16 GMT >>>There's also the problem of lymphoedema ... we were taught to very >>>lightly [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > The self-massage is related to movement of lymphatic fluid. The theory is > that it helps the fluid move through the impaired area. Not in what we were taught, it's a very different kind of stroking, it couldn't be called massage at all, we were taught that too :-) the light stroking was akin to stroking the skin with a feather. Silmple Lymph Drainage uses more pressure - but not squeezing ... and isn't limited to the affected limb. It's difficult to explain the difference without demonstrating :-)
Mary
A.P. Thorsen - 20 May 2007 14:58 GMT >> The self-massage is related to movement of lymphatic fluid. The theory >> is that it helps the fluid move through the impaired area. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the affected limb. It's difficult to explain the difference without > demonstrating :-) Yes. "Massage" was a misleading choice of words on my part. I was also talking about the light stroking of the affected limb, but the physio specialist did tell us that it helped encourage lymphatic fluid movement, in a way that was preventative of full lymphedema, not a treatment for it.
Apologies for unclarity,
Ann T. Remove 'dontsendspam' from address to reply by email
Mari@net.ac - 19 May 2007 17:22 GMT >There's also the problem of lymphoedema ... we were taught to very lightly >stroke the arm's skin in an upward direction. The theory was that this >encouraged the generation of tiny lymph nodes. I don't know if that theory >has gone by the board though. > >Mary The co-ordinator of the local support group I used to go to recommended the brushing upward of all four limbs, ie towards the heart. I did that maybe twice.
I do put polysporin on any scratches I get cutting roses or raspberry canes but I'm not as careful as I should be lifting heavy objects. Neither do I do the arm exercises often enough unless I have a checkup coming up. <g>
My last two trips to England I wore a special compression sleeve on the flight, but I'm thinking of skipping that this time. I don't know yet.
Marilyn, lazy and a procrastinator
Tim Jackson - 19 May 2007 19:53 GMT > Something has been concerning me lately and I wonder if anyone here can > give me the answer or direct me to a website where I can find it. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > 'NO FORWARDS OR SPAM, PLEASE" There are two main effects of removing the lymph nodes, one is increased susceptibility to spread of infection from the affected arm (or breast), should it get infected, the other is degraded lymph drainage.
The following is an engineer's view of how it works.
The lymph system is the hydraulic equivalent of an electrical earth (ground) wire. Fluid constantly diffuses from the high-pressure blood circulation, and has to go somewhere or pressure will build up. The lymph ducts drain this fluid, combine it with nutrients from the digestive system, and put it back into the circulatory system at a low pressure point, a vein near the neck.
The axillary lymph nodes mostly drain the arm and the tissues of the chest that are outside the rib cage. The lymph system is a multiply connected network, and there are other lesser drainage paths, the breasts also connect to each other and to the liver for example.
The lymph nodes are like filters in the lymph system, and they are a major killing field for the immune system. Most invading organisms end up in the lymph, and the nodes 'compost' anything infectious before letting it into the blood stream. The number of nodes present varies considerably from individual to individual.
So removal of the nodes obviously degrades the immune protection; and the physical damage (or the cancer itself) often causes constriction of the lymph ducts, so that they do not relieve the diffusion pressure as well as they should. This way lies lymphedema. Increased lymph pressure causes the tissues to swell. This can either be because of increased lymph flow, typically due to inflammation, or because reduced outside pressure, e.g. when flying. If this reaches a critical peak pressure then the skin's elasticity fails and the whole arm becomes permanently swollen.
Lymph massage, a gentle stroking of the limb towards the heart, produces a peristalsis-like action, encouraging the flow of lymph through the constriction and out of the limb, reducing any swelling.
Another poster mentioned chronic itching. One must realise that the axilla is something of a narrow pass in the anatomy with all the services running close together (for Brits, it is the Watford Gap of the body). So it is pretty inevitable that a few nerves get cut while removing the nodes. These nerves will attempt to reconnect unless scar tissue completely obstructs them, this process can take several years, and can give rise to strange sensations such as itching, sudden stabbing pains, or sometimes muscular twitches, as the nerves come back on line.
Tim Jackson
Mary Fisher - 19 May 2007 19:59 GMT >> Something has been concerning me lately and I wonder if anyone here can >> give me the answer or direct me to a website where I can find it. [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > Tim Jackson Mary Fisher - 19 May 2007 20:03 GMT >>> Something has been concerning me lately and I wonder if anyone here can >>> give me the answer or direct me to a website where I can find it. [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] >> >> Tim Jackson sorry - hit SEND too soon, it seems :-)
Tim's explanation augments what I said - he's good at that :-)
In my case the nerves don't seem to be coming 'back in line'.
Those in my scalp - fourteen years later - aren't doing either.
But I don't mind, the sensations are a reminder that I survived!
Mary
bartalo@webtv.net - 19 May 2007 21:30 GMT >tim's explanation augments what I said - he's > good at that :-)
>Mary Wow! He sure is, Mary. I thank all of you who replied but Tim nailed it for me! I just want to know when he is going to get his medical degree and move to my town and be an Oncologist!<g I bet I never would have gotten such a complete and detailed answer from the doc I use. Thank you so much, Tim!
Bea
"NO FORWARDS OR SPAM, PLEASE"
Mary Fisher - 20 May 2007 10:19 GMT > >tim's explanation augments what I said - he's >> good at that :-) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Bea You're right Bea but Tim has more time than most doctors have, although the surgeons we've had have given us all the time we've wanted - sometimes leading to queues of other patients. I don't mind being in one of those queues, it means that everyone has the chance to ask questions and isn't hurried through.
Mary p.s. you're not going to have Tim, he stays here with us, the north of England!!!
Tim Jackson - 20 May 2007 16:39 GMT > Wow! He sure is, Mary. I thank all of you who replied but Tim nailed > it for me! I just want to know when he is going to get his medical > degree and move to my town and be an Oncologist!<g Yeah, sure, I could just do that in time to retire.
No, I think I'll stick at being the "worlds best" industrial diagnostic engineer.
Anyway, the trick is not so much knowledge of medicine as the ability to explain what little I do know, understandably. Not an ability for which doctors are noted.
Tim
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