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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Breast Cancer / May 20073mm axillary node found on CT scan
well, i went in for a chest CT scan to rule out any lung problems.. like interstitial lung disease or COPD... and everything turned out perfect. nothing at all wrong. however, on the scan they found a 3mm axillary node under my right arm. im 25, have a history of polycystic ovarian syndrome.. was on the pill from 1996-2004 to treat that... i also have a non-specfic connective tissue disease. been positive for that since i was 12. no other known diseases other than hyper- insulinemia. i have a history of having some swollen neck glands and feeling like my underarms were as well within the last 10 years. they always went down except for one thats.. im assuming calcified in my neck since 1998. the doc said not to really worry about it. i do have a lot of breast pain.. for years and years.. usually around my period. fibrocystic breasts, too. never had a mammo done. so, i dont know if anything been there or not. i know, i should. but do you guys think this might mean something? i'm going to see my primary doctor this week and see what else they can do.. or keep an eye on it and if it doesnt go down.. still, i wanna setup a mammo, asap.. anyway. thanks so much! > well, i went in for a chest CT scan to rule out any lung problems.. > like interstitial lung disease or COPD... and everything turned out [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > thanks so much! I doubt if a mammogram would tell you anything. In 25 year old breasts you generally see lots of lumps and bumps that totally drown out any indication, even if it is there. They are just too dense. However breast cancer at that age is extremely rare, so the great likelihood it is is something else. Tim Jackson >> well, i went in for a chest CT scan to rule out any lung problems.. >> like interstitial lung disease or COPD... and everything turned out >> perfect. nothing at all wrong. however, on the scan they found a 3mm >> axillary node under my right arm. >> >> im 25, = ..... >> i'm going to see my primary doctor this week and see what else they >> can do.. or keep an eye on it and if it doesnt go down.. >> still, i wanna setup a mammo, asap.. anyway. Like Tim said, very, very, VERY unlikely to be breast cancer at your age. Not impossible, though. Mammograms don't work well on young, dense breasts (also as Tim said). Ultrasound or MRI may be more effective, but they produce many more false-positives, thus additional biopsies & worry. Biopsies themselves are not necessarily an awful medical experience, if they can do the fine-needle form. But there is additional cost and stress. Schedule a longer appointment with your doctor and have a heart-to-heart about it, then decide how to proceed. Ann T. thanks for the replies, guys. :) but yeah, i know its rare... but.. 25 doesnt seem that young. but its these health issues i already have that make me worry about it even more. the polycystic ovarian syndrome and the resulting hormonal imbalances. but yeah, (sorry for the graphicness), but i have very dense breasts. i have many many cysts that come and go around my period, or just randomly. they always hurt.. especially the one in question. also, i get a lot of pain in my underarms around and during my period. which seem to be very glandular related. im kinda shocked they only saw one there, though. however, 98% of the time its in the right one. i do overdo it with deodorants, though. the day i had the CT done, it was REALLY really hot out and i have an excessive sweating problem (especially in the underarms.. it'll just drip and drip down my sides and stinks to high heaven despite washing very well, its that bad), so i applied quite a bit of deodorant the night before and that very morning.my mom was saying that.. might have had something to do with it, but i really doubt it. to make a gland swell to 3mm?? also, would a cancer actually.. hurt? a cancerous gland, breast itself, or whatever? its sore as hell all the time. feels tight and swelled in that area a lot... especially the last 6-9 months or so. im not on any medications. however, i was on the birth control pill from 1996-2004... for the hormonal problem. i took myself off it. way too much breast pain and a lot of my symptoms from the other things were coming back. thought i needed a break from them. but the whole thing you guys said about mammo's is whats caused me to not get one in the first place. im known to have all these cysts and, what seems to be benign lumps to begin with... and i just cant keep having all these false positives with everything. just been through hell since december trying to rule out a heart and lung problem and to even GET a CT scan (4 doctors later..). then they find this. its always something. but a nodule?? something just seems odd about it. what exactly is the difference between a 'node' and a 'nodule'? just a smaller.. sub-node from the main nodes? thanks again! thanks again! > i applied quite a bit of deodorant the night before and that very > morning.my mom was saying that.. might have had something to do with > it, but i really doubt it. to make a gland swell to 3mm?? My understanding is that swollen axillary nodes due to infection are a pretty common thing. > also, would a cancer actually.. hurt? a cancerous gland, breast > itself, or whatever? It would be unusual. A few people report tumors that hurt, but they're usually painless. > what exactly is the difference between a 'node' and a 'nodule'? just a > smaller.. sub-node from the main nodes? A "nodule" is usually some kind of roundish atypical lump or thickening. In a general context, "node" can mean the same thing, but in the breast cancer context is usually short for "lymph node" a.k.a. "lymph gland", a component of the lymphatic system that filters lymphatic fluid. Ann T. Remove 'dontsendspam' from address to reply by email > My understanding is that swollen axillary nodes due to infection are a > pretty common thing. i dont know. i havent had any infections at all recently. unless there's been one and i wasnt aware of it. > A "nodule" is usually some kind of roundish atypical lump or thickening. > In a general context, "node" can mean the same thing, but in the breast > cancer context is usually short for "lymph node" a.k.a. "lymph gland", a > component of the lymphatic system that filters lymphatic fluid. the one doctor's secretary said it was a nodule.. other said "nodes".. i wont know the exact answer yet till i see them friday. no ones giving me a straight answer and the one doctor wont be in till next week and the other one refuses to even call me back it seems. on the phone the one said there were a "couple" of nodes... other said "one". ha.. i have no idea anymore. im just sick and tired of these doctors and everyone that works with them anymore. they wont even read me the report ... > thanks for the replies, guys. :) > > but yeah, i know its rare... but.. 25 doesnt seem that young. LOL! When you're 70 I hope you remember saying that :-) > but its > these health issues i already have that make me worry about it even > more. the polycystic ovarian syndrome and the resulting hormonal > imbalances. but yeah, (sorry for the graphicness), but i have very > dense breasts. i have many many cysts that come and go around my > period, or just randomly. they always hurt.. That's not uncommon. I had painful breasts for forty years. It was nothing to do with cancer. > especially the one in > question. also, i get a lot of pain in my underarms around and during > my period. which seem to be very glandular related. im kinda shocked > they only saw one there, though. however, 98% of the time its in the > right one. Lymph nodes respond to circumstances other than cancer, they're their as part of the body's armoury against infections. > i do overdo it with deodorants, though. the day i had the CT done, it > was REALLY really hot out and i have an excessive sweating problem > (especially in the underarms.. it'll just drip and drip down my sides > and stinks to high heaven despite washing very well, its that bad), I was the same when I was 25 - and 35 - and 45 - menopause seemed to make a difference. > so > i applied quite a bit of deodorant the night before and that very > morning.my mom was saying that.. might have had something to do with > it, but i really doubt it. to make a gland swell to 3mm?? NO! > also, would a cancer actually.. hurt? a cancerous gland, breast > itself, or whatever? Unlikely. > its sore as hell all the time. feels tight and swelled in that area a > lot... especially the last 6-9 months or so. im not on any > medications. however, i was on the birth control pill from > 1996-2004... for the hormonal problem. i took myself off it. way too > much breast pain and a lot of my symptoms from the other things were > coming back. thought i needed a break from them. Good for you. Eight years is a long time, I think. There are some who stay on The Pill for decades with no ill effects, I didn't use it at all so shouldn't comment.. > but the whole thing you guys said about mammo's is whats caused me to > not get one in the first place. im known to have all these cysts and, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > even GET a CT scan (4 doctors later..). then they find this. its > always something. but a nodule?? something just seems odd about it. You really must trust your doctors, we're simply people who (so far) have survived breast cancer, most of us aren't medically qualified. > what exactly is the difference between a 'node' and a 'nodule'? just a > smaller.. sub-node from the main nodes? No idea - but I bet someone has :-) I'm in UK and we're not given as much information as people in USA - unless we ask. It's a different approach. I don't know which is better but I'm confident that my surgeon, my clinical oncologist and my breast cancer support nurse answered any questions I had (and still would, nearly ten years later) so I was happy with that. I repeat, trust your doctors, don't panic and let us know how you get on. <hugs> Mary > but yeah, i know its rare... but.. 25 doesnt seem that young. The incidence of breast cancer at age 25 is about 0.005% (see http://seer.cancer.gov/). Not zero, there are a few thousand cases around the world at any given time, but it is very rare. Cancer risk increases quite dramatically with age up to the menopause, then levels off. > but its > these health issues i already have that make me worry about it even [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > they only saw one there, though. however, 98% of the time its in the > right one. > i do overdo it with deodorants, though. the day i had the CT done, it > was REALLY really hot out and i have an excessive sweating problem [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > morning.my mom was saying that.. might have had something to do with > it, but i really doubt it. to make a gland swell to 3mm?? Maybe not, but it might well have something to do with the sweating. (Isn't excess sweat a common symptom with POS?) Any sort of inflammatory process can make lymph nodes swell, not just infections. > also, would a cancer actually.. hurt? a cancerous gland, breast > itself, or whatever? I know that one never says never with cancer, there are all sorts of presentations and one can be surprised, but I think I would stick my neck out and say that cancer symptoms never come and go with periods. Well I never heard of it doing that anyway, but then again I'm not a doctor. It is usually (but not always) painless, but whatever symptoms you get are nearly always characterised by a slow relentless growth. Tim thanks again for the replies! :) well about the deodorant.. i was thinking, because i cake it on so much all the time.. and well, yeah.. i really really overdo it, LOL. trust me. also, i have fibromyalgia... and given some other odd glandular problems ive had in the past (like this one in my neck thats never ever gone down for 8 years and stays the same and rock hard)... im gonna have them check that out again, too. every doctor flicks it off. nice. well for one thing, i havent been sick. that im aware of, so...who knows. but my period did start today.. and im wondering if that has anything to do with it. my symptoms are quite strange. throat swelling, inflammation.. so bad its almst like strep. tonsils swell till i cant swallow. thats PMS for me! LOL who knows. got the appointment for friday.. gotta wait till then, tho i have a feeling its gonna be more of the runaround. also... could this CT scan be showing up something as simple as an inflammed node? or swollen lymph? cyst? or.. something other than a solid mass? what should i suggest for the doctor? they're going to give me hell about this. i know it. the pain i get most often is there and also around my chest wall. when i had my echocardiograms done the pain was so extructiating i thought i was gonna die and those never ever go away. you can actually feel the cysts/lumps in there. so, im wondering if an ultrasound mght be best, sinc eit can deal with the chest wall and armpit rather than a mammo.. but.. dont think the stupid insurance would go for that. well, i go in for a mammo on monday. they didnt wanna do an ultrasound yet. i dunno. supposedly, now.. after getting a copy of the report.. it read that I have nodes in BOTH underarms. the smallest being 3mm and the largest being 1cm. doesnt say how many or anything. the doctor couldnt feel them at all today in the exam. im assuming a mammo would show these in that area? > well, i go in for a mammo on monday. they didnt wanna do an ultrasound > yet. i dunno. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > im assuming a mammo would show these in that area? Not in the axilla, it just squashes the breast itself and only what's between the plates is imaged. It's not plasant for many people, including me, but there are worse things and my bc was detected after a routine mammogram, no lumps could be felt so I'm grateful for the technology and go for them annually.. Mary yeah i dont understand any of this mammo nonsense. because a lot of breast cancers can be in the axilla and off to the side there... because that IS breast tissue. these doctors are idiots. just giving a piece of crap, cheap test when theres other technology available to save millions of lives. MRI's, PET scans... etc. my doc argued with me over the whole ultrasound thing. still, these things are gonna have to be checked. most of my 'lumpiness' is off to the side, right up against the breastbone. > yeah i dont understand any of this mammo nonsense. because a lot of > breast cancers can be in the axilla and off to the side there... > because that IS breast tissue. these doctors are idiots. In my experience doctors aren't idiots. They know more than we do ... Mary > yeah i dont understand any of this mammo nonsense. because a lot of > breast cancers can be in the axilla and off to the side there... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > things are gonna have to be checked. most of my 'lumpiness' is off to > the side, right up against the breastbone. I'm a little unclear about exactly where this lumpiness you're talking about is, so my answer may be off-target, too. If you have breast cancer in axillary nodes, it's virtually always gotten there from a well-developed tumor in the breast itself. Some locations in the breast are more easily imaged on mammogram than others, of course, but the test is intended to image the breast, not the axillary nodes. As an aside, my BC was found because I had an enlarged/palpable axillary node that didn't respond to antibiotics. (Yep, they tried the antibiotics first.) It also didn't change size with menstrual cycle. The breast tumors showed up on mammogram, and were confirmed malignant by fine needle biopsy. Your docs are not going to just do a bunch of tests willy-nilly. They go through a diagnostic process that -- because BC is regrettably so very common -- is pretty well researched & standardized. The mammogram is still looking like the best starting point, though there's ongoing research about alternatives. It has fewer false positives than some of the alternatives. You don't want to have unnecessary radiologic tests, because cumulative doses of radiation carry risks. If your mammogram is difficult to read because of breast density, or has certain kinds of ambiguity, the docs may follow up with something like ultrasound (which I know doesn't involve radiation, but it does involve costs, time delays, and a higher incidence of false positives). If I recall correctly from your previous posts, you're 25 years old, have a history of fibrocystic breasts and lymph node abnormalities, have lumps that change in size or hardness with menstrual cycle, and that are painful. BC seems very unlikely to be the explanation for your symptoms - your age makes it unlikely in itself (I think Tim cited a 0.005% rate at your age), and your symptoms are not typical of BC, on top of that. Your docs should go through a diagnostic process to identify a cause for your symptoms, but that could take various directions depending on what theories they're checking out. It doesn't seem too surprising that your docs aren't forging speedily ahead with BC diagnostic tests that can in themselves carry risks (albeit small ones), when the symptoms & your age suggest it probably isn't BC. I know you're worried, and worried specifically about BC because it's a potentially fatal condition. That's *very* understandable. You could look at your docs' resistance to extensive BC-related testing as incompetence, but you could also look at it as reassuring -- they don't think you have BC. Ann T. Remove 'dontsendspam' from address to reply by email > these doctors are idiots. just giving a > piece of crap, cheap test when theres other technology available to > save millions of lives. MRI's, PET scans... etc. The other technologies won't save millions of lives. Screening by PET scans would kill more than it saves because for every bc patient it saved, tens of thousands of perfectly healthy women would be injected with radio-isotopes. MRI is a slightly different story, it can resolve more cancers than mammogram and does not involve ionising radiation, but it is vastly more expensive, and leads to even more false positives. When we are talking about screening or medicating whole populations we have to realise that there is only one financial pot and whatever extra we spend on preventing one disease has to be at the expense of preventing another, so a balance has to be struck between such things as cancer and heart disease. If we could make MRI cheaper and more widely available then it might be worth using more widely. Overall there is no simple answer, no magic bullet. We have to look at each possible technology as it appears and consider how effectively it discriminates and what side effects it has, to figure out the overall benefit to the population in using it. And we have to apply each screening test to only those parts of the population that can reasonably hope to benefit from it. Tim Jackson >> these doctors are idiots. just giving a >> piece of crap, cheap test when theres other technology available to [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Tim Jackson Well said, Tim. Mary ok, i just got back from the mammo and everything was fine. they didnt see a thing. i even got to talk to the doctor there and he showed me everything. he even had the scans from my CT where they found them and said "those nodes are well within a normal range (3mm to 1cm) and id not worry about it. could be from anything at all..". from what i also saw on the mammo.. there was absolutely nothing there. they were aware of my problem areas and did some re-scans and as close to the chest wall as possible and the fibrocysts werent even there! im just wondering what im feeling thats all lumpy then! LOL. but yeah, that was all good. now, i just wanna make sure these nodes go down. should my doc just order me another ct scan in a few weeks and see if they went down? its impossible to even feel these nodes, too. neither me or the doctors. ive felt things in there before but.. who knows if that was a node or what. > ok, i just got back from the mammo and everything was fine. they didnt > see a thing.... <snip> > im just > wondering what im feeling thats all lumpy then! Great news! I'm glad you shared it with us. If no one's recommended it yet, let me: You might want to get a copy of "Dr. Susan Love's Breast Book". It covers a number of conditions that can affect your breasts, including in-depth coverage of breast cancer. But there are a lot of benign conditions that can cause lumpiness, and she describes them in novice-friendly terms. Not least, breasts are *inherently* lumpy -- various types of tissue are of different density, and can change texture with menstrual cycle, so it's normal to feel kinda lumpy. BC lumps feel different, usually, and the big deal is to be doing self-exams regularly (monthly at the same point in your menstrual cycle) so you know where your normal lumps are & what they feel like, so you readily notice anything unusual. > should my doc just order me another ct scan in a few weeks and see if > they went down? its impossible to even feel these nodes, too. neither > me or the doctors. ive felt things in there before but.. who knows if > that was a node or what. What did your doc say about future checks? Odd things can show up on scans, and be essentially meaningless. Perhaps there's no reason to worry, or subject yourself to additional worrisome and expensive tests . . . . Again, thanks for sharing the good news about your mammo! Ann T. Remove 'dontsendspam' from address to reply by email > Great news! I'm glad you shared it with us. :) i was nervous as hell. waiting for the results. and when they came back and said everything looked good and if i wanted to ask the doc anything i could.. and he seemed totally non-concerned.. and he already had my CT scan copy right up there side by side on the computer (same place I had that test done, too.. so they have everything.) he said nodes like that are a pretty "common finding" and though he said it could be from shaving or whatever.. i dunno. i gave up shaving my underarms since the winter because my skin's been so sensitive (and the auto-immune stuff's been messing my skin's balance up) and i was wearing longer sleeves all the time and really the only thing ive done to them is.. gently wash them as usual and use a lot of deodorant. lol. (sorry for the graphics, i know its gross, lol). but he said he doubted the deodorant/anti-perspirant would have anything to do wth it.. but.. with my sweating and putrid underarm stench no matter how much i wash, i start to wonder.. all that crap being backed up from the anti-perspirant? but yeah.. i barely ever do anything to my underarms.. at least like i said, since the winter. so, it is a little odd. but.. during my period and a little before.. my underarms get VERY sore. and i do have a really bad flu right now.. but i doubt that would cause my axillary nodes from swelling. i dont know. > If no one's recommended it yet, let me: You might want to get a copy of > "Dr. Susan Love's Breast Book". It covers a number of conditions that can > affect your breasts, including in-depth coverage of breast cancer. But > there are a lot of benign conditions that can cause lumpiness, and she > describes them in novice-friendly terms. i'll check it out. thanks. :) > Not least, breasts are *inherently* lumpy -- various types of tissue are of > different density, and can change texture with menstrual cycle, so it's > normal to feel kinda lumpy. yeah, i was expecting them to see all kinds of stuff on that mammo and when i saw it, they looked.. so clear! lol. the amount of hell i go through with these things, you'd think there'd be all kinds of stuff in them, lol. but, i cant be too mad at then, they seem to be behaving, obviously. lol. > BC lumps feel different, usually, and the big deal is to be doing self-exams > regularly (monthly at the same point in your menstrual cycle) so you know > where your normal lumps are & what they feel like, so you readily notice > anything unusual. yah, ive never been one to check them in a regular pattern/schedule like that. and each period i have is so different, given my PCOS.. i can have symptoms lasting the whole month and my periods tend to get rather strange and i just.. gave up any formula for checking.. which, is really stupid of me. from now on, im getting a mammo.. every single year.. and keeping up on this. ive had a lot of health scares this year and im just becoming overly worried and freaky about everything now.. but then again.. there really isnt anything wrong with being that way sometimes .. its just been so long since i had a good health workup and kept up on things and, god knows whats goig on inside me, given all my auto- immune and hormonal problems.. its scary. and even though im 25.. i still keep thinking in my head, that i'm still... in the state i was when i was say... 16... or 17.. and things DO change. so... > What did your doc say about future checks? Odd things can show up on > scans, and be essentially meaningless. Perhaps there's no reason to worry, > or subject yourself to additional worrisome and expensive tests . . . . i didnt get to talk to my primary yet. this was just the lab today. they're gonna start thinking im nuts.. i'm in there every other week about tests and this, and that.. and to go over this and that.. but... i just wanna KNOW whats going on and to keep up on sh.t and not in a hypochondriac way. just with my problems, i gotta see several separate specialists and getting referalls and waiting for appt's here and there forever.. and its overwhelming sometmes.. especially when you are worried and not sure whats going on with you. i just feel like my doctors flicking me off lately. i still say.. maybe in 2 or 3 weeks, go and get the CT again... recheck the nodes.. make sure theres no new nodes anywhere. but nodes.. can sometimes take a couple to several months to change one way or another.. so... but damn, i dont wanna wait that long and god knows what could happen if it IS something. i'm just hoping the nodes are just something to do with my Lupus/mixed auto-immune disease (being overworked and hyper-active) and not.. Lymphoma or something. my mom has Lupus and has constant swollen nodes.. and theyve all been checked. seems to be a common thing with those of us with that. i just.. i dont know. anything to do with nodes... worries me. and rightfully so. plus, ive been having a nasty "Lupus" flare-up recently, so that might be what it is. if so... great. i'll just deal with the nodes and treat it from there. but i have an uncle who had lymphoma a few years ago (and is cured now), and that was scary. occasionally i'll have itchiness around my underarms. not all the time, just every now and then and it'll be pretty bad, but then i just flikc it off as being from all the caked up deodorant, lol. i use the super strength Arrid stuff, usually. as for itchiness overall.. i ea, im always itchy. i have very dry skin and we have spider problems in the house that seem to be neverending and im always getting bitten by them and my skin condition anyway, from the auto-immune problems.. (its a scleroderma/SLE overlap type mixed connective tissue disease, borderline lupus..). so, anything ODD.. i dont really take into consideration anymore, since im so used to it. been going through this all my life, pretty much. however, i would guess with the Lupus thing, that my glands everywhere would be swelled right now .. but my neck nodes ... they go up and down depending. one hasnt ever gone down. its just.. there. been that way for 10 years now. doctors always say since it hasnt grown and doesnt bother me, then its of no concern. though, that doesnt seem too right. isnt there some type of blood test they can just do to tets for cancer/ lymphoma instead of a biopsy on these nodes? i did my externship at a university hospital (i'm a medical assistant) and occasionally assisted the breast surgoen there with out-patient procedures like this, and they seem fairly simple.. nothing that bad. but the waits for such a thing... are the worst parts. fine-needle aspiration id be worried about. they CAN indeed miss cells. and besides.. these things are so small to begin with. but with every single doctor ive seen so far.. its like pulling teeth just to get certain blood tests done for gods sakes! and when they finally DO give in, then they find stuff. > ok, i just got back from the mammo and everything was fine. they didnt > see a thing. i even got to talk to the doctor there and he showed me [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > wondering what im feeling thats all lumpy then! LOL. but yeah, that > was all good. So Phew! :-) > now, i just wanna make sure these nodes go down. > > should my doc just order me another ct scan in a few weeks and see if > they went down? its impossible to even feel these nodes, too. neither > me or the doctors. ive felt things in there before but.. who knows if > that was a node or what. Cancer lumps don't come and go. This really isn't the ng for breast lumps other than cancers, some of us might know about them but only your doctor can advise on your particular case. Tim has explained the possible drawbacks of frequent scans of various types, you pay a price (not just in $) for every one. I'm very pleased that you're relieved of the worry of cancer. Hugs, Mary |
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