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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Breast Cancer / September 2005

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KD - 28 Sep 2005 09:19 GMT
I had breast cancer four years ago and had a lumpectomy and lymph glands
removed-none in them. This summer I had cancer in the other breast and also
had a lumpectomy.  (Both were at the site of injuries.)
I am not worried about the cancer in the breasts. We can find that. How do
we keep track of whether it spreads elsewhere in the body?
Also, I now live in central Florida and need to find new doctors,
particularly an oncologist.  Suggestions?
Tim Jackson - 28 Sep 2005 10:56 GMT
> I had breast cancer four years ago and had a lumpectomy and lymph glands
> removed-none in them. This summer I had cancer in the other breast and also
> had a lumpectomy.  (Both were at the site of injuries.)
> I am not worried about the cancer in the breasts. We can find that. How do
> we keep track of whether it spreads elsewhere in the body?

In short, not easily.  Mostly it is a matter of wait and see.  There are
things that can be done to detect metastases earlier, but unlike primary
cancer there is little benefit from early detection, and so there is a
school of thought that it is best to leave well alone until symptoms
appear, if they do.  If we ran the tests (most of which involve harmful
radiation doses to the body) on everyone who had an early stage cancer
removed we would end up doing more harm than good, as well as costing a
lot more.

Tests that can be done is a CAT scan or similar to search for unexpected
growths in the body, an isotope bone scan to look for inflammation sites
in the skeleton, and blood tests to look for "tumour markers", compounds
characteristically released by tumours.  Some institutions are prone to
carrying out all these tests on a "just in case" basis, and to protect
themselves against possible legal action, even when there is not really
a clinical basis for ordering them.  It would be normal to do some or
all of these if the primary tumour was at high risk of having
metastasised, eg stage III.

Tumour marker tests in particular, while fairly cheap, and minimally
invasive, are rarely useful in making an initial diagnosis of secondary
cancer because the background levels of the marker compounds are very
variable.  What they are good at is monitoring the effectiveness of
treatments for a known tumour, where the level is already very high and
one watches the rate of change, rather than the absolute level, of the
marker.  But new tests are being developed which are better for initial
diagnosis, and the above may be less true in future.

Tim Jackson
Lowell - 29 Sep 2005 01:46 GMT
There are *great* benefits from early detection. I know of several people
that may be alive today if they had had MRI's and/or CT scans done several
years ago to detect large tumors, brain tumors, etc, when subtle symptoms
presented themselves. My wife is one of those that should have had extensive
testing years ago after her 1990 bout with breast cancer. She is surviving,
but now with bone, lung and brain cancer. Had these diseases been detected
earlier, perhaps she would be in much better health today. Listen to your
body!!!  Van

>> I had breast cancer four years ago and had a lumpectomy and lymph glands
>> removed-none in them. This summer I had cancer in the other breast and
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Tim Jackson
Tim Jackson - 29 Sep 2005 07:56 GMT
Historically, early detection has not made much statistical difference
to overall survival or relapse rate.  Of course anyone can say "if it
had been caught earlier then things would have been different", but
secondary cancer seems to have its own timetable, and it is relatively
few cases where interventions at this stage makes a big difference.

That however is history and tradition.  New treatments are appearing all
the time, and some do buck this trend.  For example, for a small
minority, Herceptin can hold secondary cancer in check for several years.

Tim Jackson

> There are *great* benefits from early detection. I know of several people
> that may be alive today if they had had MRI's and/or CT scans done several
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>> unlike primary
>>cancer there is little benefit from early detection.
Pat from Apple Valley, CA - 29 Sep 2005 20:27 GMT
> There are *great* benefits from early detection. I know of several people
> that may be alive today if they had had MRI's and/or CT scans done several
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>>
>>Tim Jackson

My last Dr. refused to order the CA27.29 test stating that it proved
unreliable in discovering if the cancer has metatized. Until the numbers
were at 1300, He watched them, go from 40 to 1300 before starting
treatment.(Normal reading is 35) Then he started Arimidex treatments,
knowing that Tamoxifen had not worked. Until I left him with a reading
of 1800. I feel that if he had started treatments earlier with Chemo as
I am on now. That possibly I would not be in the amount of pain from
Bone mets that I am now in. I do admit that the chemo's, (I am on the
fourth type, now) have not worked well in reducing the CA numbers for
any length of time. But it seems to me that the growth would have been
slowed with earlier treatment. I now get a CA27.29 test every 3 weeks 1
week after chemo. My new Dr. seems to think it is important in the the
staging of my treatments. It is just my opinion, but if the treatments
had started earlier the disease would NOT have advanced as far...as quickly.
Pat From Apple Valley, CA
Tim Jackson - 29 Sep 2005 22:15 GMT
> My last Dr. refused to order the CA27.29 test stating that it proved
> unreliable in discovering if the cancer has metatized. Until the numbers
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> quickly.
> Pat From Apple Valley, CA

Maybe, but chemo isn't usually very effective against bone mets anyway,
so I'm not convinced it would have had a lot of effect on the pain even
if started earlier.

The CA27.29 is very good at monitoring chemo.  When you *know* that the
bulk of the marker compound it is coming from the tumour, then any
change in its level is a good indication of a change in the tumour
volume, or surface area.  So that when you find no reduction you can
quickly move on to another type of chemo.

There is also the view that giving chemo in response to "silent"
markers, when there are no symptoms, is to take someone who has a
limited amount of life left and then to spoil the best bit, the
symptom-free period, with chemo side effects.

Tim
Pat from Apple Valley, CA - 30 Sep 2005 21:35 GMT
>> My last Dr. refused to order the CA27.29 test stating that it proved
>> unreliable in discovering if the cancer has metatized. Until the
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> Tim
Tim,
   I'm sure you are right, as I have read a lot of your responses, but
It seems to me that if a treatment had been started as soon as the
numbers started to rise to 140, or 300, before the bone mets even showed
up on a scan, that it would have killed the roving cancer cells that
attached themselves to my bones, and started to grow ond hurt, and that
maybe I would not have spots on my liver and not be doing over a year of
chemos that have quit working..That maybe the disease would not have
progressed to the stage it is now.
    I have a friend who had Lymphoma, after her initial chemo's were over
her Dr gives her a periodic, every 3 or 4 months, chemo series that is
to take care of the errent cells that may be coming back. She is doing
fine and the chemo's are not debilitating for her. Why is it necessary
to make sure breast cancer is back before starting any course of
treatment? Then it is impossible to cure. Just a little rant. Guess I am
just depressed....
Pat from Apple Valley, CA
KD - 29 Sep 2005 04:48 GMT
Thank you for the information!
>I had breast cancer four years ago and had a lumpectomy and lymph glands
>removed-none in them. This summer I had cancer in the other breast and also
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Also, I now live in central Florida and need to find new doctors,
> particularly an oncologist.  Suggestions?
 
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