Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Breast Cancer / September 2005
Reoccurances
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KD - 28 Sep 2005 09:19 GMT I had breast cancer four years ago and had a lumpectomy and lymph glands removed-none in them. This summer I had cancer in the other breast and also had a lumpectomy. (Both were at the site of injuries.) I am not worried about the cancer in the breasts. We can find that. How do we keep track of whether it spreads elsewhere in the body? Also, I now live in central Florida and need to find new doctors, particularly an oncologist. Suggestions?
Tim Jackson - 28 Sep 2005 10:56 GMT > I had breast cancer four years ago and had a lumpectomy and lymph glands > removed-none in them. This summer I had cancer in the other breast and also > had a lumpectomy. (Both were at the site of injuries.) > I am not worried about the cancer in the breasts. We can find that. How do > we keep track of whether it spreads elsewhere in the body? In short, not easily. Mostly it is a matter of wait and see. There are things that can be done to detect metastases earlier, but unlike primary cancer there is little benefit from early detection, and so there is a school of thought that it is best to leave well alone until symptoms appear, if they do. If we ran the tests (most of which involve harmful radiation doses to the body) on everyone who had an early stage cancer removed we would end up doing more harm than good, as well as costing a lot more.
Tests that can be done is a CAT scan or similar to search for unexpected growths in the body, an isotope bone scan to look for inflammation sites in the skeleton, and blood tests to look for "tumour markers", compounds characteristically released by tumours. Some institutions are prone to carrying out all these tests on a "just in case" basis, and to protect themselves against possible legal action, even when there is not really a clinical basis for ordering them. It would be normal to do some or all of these if the primary tumour was at high risk of having metastasised, eg stage III.
Tumour marker tests in particular, while fairly cheap, and minimally invasive, are rarely useful in making an initial diagnosis of secondary cancer because the background levels of the marker compounds are very variable. What they are good at is monitoring the effectiveness of treatments for a known tumour, where the level is already very high and one watches the rate of change, rather than the absolute level, of the marker. But new tests are being developed which are better for initial diagnosis, and the above may be less true in future.
Tim Jackson
Lowell - 29 Sep 2005 01:46 GMT There are *great* benefits from early detection. I know of several people that may be alive today if they had had MRI's and/or CT scans done several years ago to detect large tumors, brain tumors, etc, when subtle symptoms presented themselves. My wife is one of those that should have had extensive testing years ago after her 1990 bout with breast cancer. She is surviving, but now with bone, lung and brain cancer. Had these diseases been detected earlier, perhaps she would be in much better health today. Listen to your body!!! Van
>> I had breast cancer four years ago and had a lumpectomy and lymph glands >> removed-none in them. This summer I had cancer in the other breast and [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Tim Jackson Tim Jackson - 29 Sep 2005 07:56 GMT Historically, early detection has not made much statistical difference to overall survival or relapse rate. Of course anyone can say "if it had been caught earlier then things would have been different", but secondary cancer seems to have its own timetable, and it is relatively few cases where interventions at this stage makes a big difference.
That however is history and tradition. New treatments are appearing all the time, and some do buck this trend. For example, for a small minority, Herceptin can hold secondary cancer in check for several years.
Tim Jackson
> There are *great* benefits from early detection. I know of several people > that may be alive today if they had had MRI's and/or CT scans done several [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> unlike primary >>cancer there is little benefit from early detection. Pat from Apple Valley, CA - 29 Sep 2005 20:27 GMT > There are *great* benefits from early detection. I know of several people > that may be alive today if they had had MRI's and/or CT scans done several [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> >>Tim Jackson My last Dr. refused to order the CA27.29 test stating that it proved unreliable in discovering if the cancer has metatized. Until the numbers were at 1300, He watched them, go from 40 to 1300 before starting treatment.(Normal reading is 35) Then he started Arimidex treatments, knowing that Tamoxifen had not worked. Until I left him with a reading of 1800. I feel that if he had started treatments earlier with Chemo as I am on now. That possibly I would not be in the amount of pain from Bone mets that I am now in. I do admit that the chemo's, (I am on the fourth type, now) have not worked well in reducing the CA numbers for any length of time. But it seems to me that the growth would have been slowed with earlier treatment. I now get a CA27.29 test every 3 weeks 1 week after chemo. My new Dr. seems to think it is important in the the staging of my treatments. It is just my opinion, but if the treatments had started earlier the disease would NOT have advanced as far...as quickly. Pat From Apple Valley, CA
Tim Jackson - 29 Sep 2005 22:15 GMT > My last Dr. refused to order the CA27.29 test stating that it proved > unreliable in discovering if the cancer has metatized. Until the numbers [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > quickly. > Pat From Apple Valley, CA Maybe, but chemo isn't usually very effective against bone mets anyway, so I'm not convinced it would have had a lot of effect on the pain even if started earlier.
The CA27.29 is very good at monitoring chemo. When you *know* that the bulk of the marker compound it is coming from the tumour, then any change in its level is a good indication of a change in the tumour volume, or surface area. So that when you find no reduction you can quickly move on to another type of chemo.
There is also the view that giving chemo in response to "silent" markers, when there are no symptoms, is to take someone who has a limited amount of life left and then to spoil the best bit, the symptom-free period, with chemo side effects.
Tim
Pat from Apple Valley, CA - 30 Sep 2005 21:35 GMT >> My last Dr. refused to order the CA27.29 test stating that it proved >> unreliable in discovering if the cancer has metatized. Until the [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Tim Tim, I'm sure you are right, as I have read a lot of your responses, but It seems to me that if a treatment had been started as soon as the numbers started to rise to 140, or 300, before the bone mets even showed up on a scan, that it would have killed the roving cancer cells that attached themselves to my bones, and started to grow ond hurt, and that maybe I would not have spots on my liver and not be doing over a year of chemos that have quit working..That maybe the disease would not have progressed to the stage it is now. I have a friend who had Lymphoma, after her initial chemo's were over her Dr gives her a periodic, every 3 or 4 months, chemo series that is to take care of the errent cells that may be coming back. She is doing fine and the chemo's are not debilitating for her. Why is it necessary to make sure breast cancer is back before starting any course of treatment? Then it is impossible to cure. Just a little rant. Guess I am just depressed.... Pat from Apple Valley, CA
KD - 29 Sep 2005 04:48 GMT Thank you for the information!
>I had breast cancer four years ago and had a lumpectomy and lymph glands >removed-none in them. This summer I had cancer in the other breast and also [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Also, I now live in central Florida and need to find new doctors, > particularly an oncologist. Suggestions?
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