Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Breast Cancer / August 2005
Lymphedema Question??
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Bea - - 11 Aug 2005 16:05 GMT Please note before I ask my question that "there are no stupid questions", only "stupid people who ask them" (referencing myself, only) So if you have an answer please share with me.
I have stopped all airline trips after my bc surgery to try to protect myself from getting Lymphedema. However, my life partner, wants to take one of these Helicopter Tours over the mountains "if" we get to go on a trip this fall.
My question is, does flying in a helicopter cause the same problems for possible Lymphedema as flying in an airplane? I know they do not have pressurized cabins in helicopters and they do not do up as high as airplanes, so are they safe to fly in or would I be risking Lymphedema? Thanks for any help and information you can provide.
Bea
Sandy L - 11 Aug 2005 16:33 GMT > Please note before I ask my question that "there are no stupid > questions", only "stupid people who ask them" (referencing myself, only) [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Bea Is it really dangerous to fly in airplanes? It is not imediately obvious to me why a decrease in atmospheric pressure would make a significant difference. The relative hydrostatic pressure across capillary walls should be about the same at high or low altitude. True, the pressure on the lymph side is lower at high altitude but the pressure on the venous side is lower by the same amount.
Tim Jackson - 11 Aug 2005 17:50 GMT >>Please note before I ask my question that "there are no stupid >>questions", only "stupid people who ask them" (referencing myself, only) [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > the lymph side is lower at high altitude but the pressure on the venous side > is lower by the same amount. I suppose the theory is based on the fact that it is damned difficult to get your shoes back on after a long-haul flight - we do, in practice, swell up, even if it is not immediately obvious why - indeed a balloon full of water would not swell up.
Theorising: Lowering the lymph pressure might reduce the drainage rate but it wouldn't lead to swelling per se, as the volume built up the pressure would rise and increase the drainage rate again. So I wonder whether it is due to the skin's inability to retain the pressure differential between the lymph and the air. Or perhaps it might be a dynamic effect due to *changes* in pressure, eg the lymph volume grows while the pressure is low, but causes trouble when the pressure rises again. Or a final theory, the flow of lymph is a diffusion process and I know it takes a hours for pressure changes to diffuse through the tissue and reflect in pressures within the tissues, so perhaps tissues swell because of high pressure of absorbed fluid. In which case it would as Sandy says have no implications for ductal lymph and drainage. But that still doesn't explain why it acts like there is a compressible fluid, a gas, present in the first place.
I don't know whether this helps, but I understand that the pressure in an airliner cabin is roughly equivalent to that of an unpressurised cabin at about 8000 feet altitude.
I don't know if the problem is real or imagined but if it is real I imagine that the duration of the flight would also be relevant factor.
If you are worried, you could wear a compression sleeve on the arm as a prophylaxis during the flight.
Tim Jackson
Sandy L - 12 Aug 2005 02:52 GMT >>>Please note before I ask my question that "there are no stupid >>>questions", only "stupid people who ask them" (referencing myself, only) [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > swell up, even if it is not immediately obvious why - indeed a balloon > full of water would not swell up. I think that is mostly dependant edema, without the peripheral pump of muscles. The feet are well below the heart, so there is the added hydrostatic pressure of the column of venous blood from the heart down. In everyday life, we walk form time to time. Because there are valves in the veins which permit flow only toward the heart (except with varicose veins or other damaged veins), any muscle contraction in the legs tends to froce bloodtoward the heart. If you just sit there, that effect is lacking, which is why deep vein thrombosis is a significant problem on long flights.
> Theorising: Lowering the lymph pressure might reduce the drainage rate but > it wouldn't lead to swelling per se, as the volume built up the pressure [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Tim Jackson Tim Jackson - 12 Aug 2005 10:00 GMT >>>>Please note before I ask my question that "there are no stupid >>>>questions", only "stupid people who ask them" (referencing myself, only) [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > bloodtoward the heart. If you just sit there, that effect is lacking, which > is why deep vein thrombosis is a significant problem on long flights. I don't think it can be that simple, the effect does not seem so pronounced after a similar duration in a similar seat in a coach, ship or car. Also I have noticed that my hands swell too, I recall my wedding ring sometimes got uncomfortably tight when flying.
One thought I had on DVT, I notice when sitting for a long time, driving, flying or at my computer, after a while I feel a strong urge to stretch my legs, several times about every 20 mins or so, pointing my toes as far as I can. I wonder if this is my body's reaction to sensing that blood is pooling in my legs, and whether clenching my leg muscles in this way does help reduce the risk of DVT.
Tim
allan_grossman@hotmail.com - 11 Aug 2005 17:30 GMT > Please note before I ask my question that "there are no stupid > questions", only "stupid people who ask them" (referencing myself, only) [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > airplanes, so are they safe to fly in or would I be risking Lymphedema? > Thanks for any help and information you can provide. I don't think most helicopters normally fly at an altitude that'd cause problems. There are cities in the US with elevations above 5000 ft and women's arms don't explode there so I think you'd be fine.
If you're a little nervous, wear a compression sleeve ;-)
Bea - - 11 Aug 2005 17:36 GMT >If you're a little nervous, wear a compression > sleeve ;-) What makes you think I am a little nervous, Alan?? In fact, I never thought about the altitude of some cities. Well! You just canceled that trip for me! But thanks anyway. I know you just want to be helpful. I need to give up on those mountains anyway. I'm just grateful I saw most of the places with mountains before bc.
Bea
Shirley Kennedy - 11 Aug 2005 18:16 GMT > What makes you think I am a little nervous, Alan?? In fact, I never > thought about the altitude of some cities. Well! You just canceled [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Bea Coming out of lurk mode here. Haven't posted for a loong time, but, Bea, your reply requires an answer.
Why would Alan's thoughtful reply cause you to cancel the trip? Doesn't make sense.
I, too, have to be careful about lymphedema. It's been 5 years since my surgery and so far no sign of it. I have flown many times since and never even thought about it. You need to be reasonably cautious, and by that I mean no taking of blood from that arm, no tight bracelets, that sort of thing.
But give up the mountains because of your bc? A bit overdramatic, don't you think?
Shirley K.
Bea - - 11 Aug 2005 19:33 GMT >A bit overdramatic, don't you think?
>Shirley K. You took me seriously! Sorry. I just have to learn to use those smiley faces. If I can't take the helicopter tour, my partner can go alone. I certainly would not be stupid enough to cancel seeing my beautiful mountains because of that! Maybe, I am just looking for a good excuse not to have to get up there in one of those stupid choppers. <g
Bea
allan_grossman@hotmail.com - 11 Aug 2005 19:51 GMT > You took me seriously! Sorry. I just have to learn to use those smiley > faces. If I can't take the helicopter tour, my partner can go alone. I > certainly would not be stupid enough to cancel seeing my beautiful > mountains because of that! > Maybe, I am just looking for a good excuse not to have to get up there > in one of those stupid choppers. <g ;-)
hugs -
lymphedemapeople@gmail.com - 11 Aug 2005 20:13 GMT > > You took me seriously! Sorry. I just have to learn to use those smiley > > faces. If I can't take the helicopter tour, my partner can go alone. I > > certainly would not be stupid enough to cancel seeing my beautiful > > mountains because of that! > > Maybe, I am just looking for a good excuse not to have to get up there > > in one of those stupid choppers. <g Hi Friends
Here are a couple articles that will help answer questions about flying and arm lymphedema. Bea, the third one also helps explains some why's and what for's of preventing arm lymphedema:
Use Caution by Wearing a Compression Sleeve when Traveling by Air
http://www.abcn.ca/artman/publish/article_281.html
NLN Revised Paper on Flying
http://www.lymphnet.org/nlnairtravel.pdf
and
No Blood Tests, Blood Pressure, I.V. or Injections into this Arm!
http://www.abcn.ca/artman/publish/article_260.html
Hope this Helps :-)
Pat O'Connor Lymphedema People http://www.lymphedemapeople.com
Bea - - 11 Aug 2005 20:51 GMT >Hope this Helps :-)
>Pat O'Connon Thanks so much for sharing the site. I have and wear one of your bracelets but unfortunately have almost come to blows with nurses who ignore it. I think I just need to paint a giant red sign on that arm!<g
By the way, my cheapo Webtv will not allow me to open "pdf" articles and I was particularly interested in the revised one on air flying. Is it available in any other form where I can read it? Thanks so much for your help!
Bea
lymphedemapeople@gmail.com - 11 Aug 2005 21:17 GMT Hi Bea
Don't know if it is available on anything else. I will try to locate something for you. Give me a day though, tommorow is my first session on rituxan so not sure what I'm gonna feel like.
;-)
Pat Lymphedema People
lymphedemapeople@gmail.com - 11 Aug 2005 21:20 GMT Hi Bea
Don't know if it is available on anything else. I will try to locate something for you. Give me a day though, tommorow is my first session on rituxan so not sure what I'm gonna feel like.
;-)
Pat Lymphedema People
Tim Jackson - 12 Aug 2005 10:18 GMT >>Hope this Helps :-) > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Bea I find I can crudely convert PDF documents to HTML. I'll email a copy to you.
Tim
Bea - - 12 Aug 2005 17:47 GMT >I find I can crudely convert PDF documents to > HTML. I'll email a copy to you.
>Tim Thanks so much, Tim. I received it and it was just perfect and so very helpful. Your kindness and help is appreciated as always.
Bea
A. P. Thorsen - 16 Aug 2005 14:42 GMT > Thanks so much for sharing the site. I have and wear one of your > bracelets but unfortunately have almost come to blows with nurses who > ignore it. I think I just need to paint a giant red sign on that arm!<g I keep telling people I'm planning to get a "No Needles!" tattoo on my at-risk arm.
After saying it a number of times, I've come to think of this assertion as something of an IQ test . . . . or at least a humor test.
<Insert Allan-inspired smiley-face of your choice here.>
Ann T. Remove "dontsendspam' from address to reply by email
Tim Jackson - 16 Aug 2005 16:28 GMT >> Thanks so much for sharing the site. I have and wear one of your >> bracelets but unfortunately have almost come to blows with nurses who >> ignore it. I think I just need to paint a giant red sign on that arm!<g > > I keep telling people I'm planning to get a "No Needles!" tattoo on my > at-risk arm. The late Catharine used to write "No BP, No sticks" in magic marker down her compromised arm when going into hospital.
Tim
allan_grossman@hotmail.com - 11 Aug 2005 19:35 GMT > What makes you think I am a little nervous, Alan?? I meant if you were nervous about flying, Bea ;-)
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