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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Breast Cancer / August 2005

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Flax seed good, olive oil bad????

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Gabriel - 01 Aug 2005 17:04 GMT
I'm not sure that I should be posting this sort of thing here (and would
be grateful for any comments about this), but I came across a message
that seemed interesting in an IBC mailing list. I don't know anything
about the subject or this message.

Best wishes,
Signature

Gabriel

Subject: Re: [IBC] 1 flax seed muffin a day for 30 days killed 31% of bc

> I am impressed.
> And it is effective for ER negative.    :-)      Good news!
> Elaine

========================

Elaine,

I am also impressed with the entire website.  One of the things that Dr.
Martin mentions is the following:

'use ONLY the brown flax seed. The golden flax seed contains NO oil.'

------------------------

He also wrote interesting information regarding Olive Oil.  You may
remember that olive oil recently received good publicity regarding
cancer,
but he has an alternative viewpoint that he posted on his blog.  You can
read it below.

Remember, anyone can post a comment or question at the end of each of
his
blogs on:  http://www.grouppekurosawa.com/blog/

=========================

Foods That Kill Cancer Cells

There is no question that a proper diet can contribute to a cancer free
life. However, once cancer becomes established specific foods cannot,
for
the most part, actually kill cancer cells. For the most part this is due
to the low concentrations of medical compounds in most foods.
Supplements
can help, but many supplements enter the body poorly. The prevention and
treatment of cancer are two drastically different processes.

I know of two foods that can powerfully kill cancer cells. If people can
think of others, please post a comment to this essay with the
information.
I will check it out.

The first food is flaxseed, ground into a meal. Twenty give grams of
flaxmeal baked into a muffin and eaten once a day for 30 days killed 31%
of the breast cancer cells in newly diagnosed women. Flaxseed contains a
high concentration of pre-lignans which are converted into lignans by
intestinal bacteria. There is a very large scientific literature
published
on the biochemistry of lignans. In addition to breast cancer cells,
lignans can also kill melanoma cells. In fact, the lignans from flaxseed
can probably kill any cancers.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/queryd.fcgi?
cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15897583

Now let's talk about fats. We all know that olive oil contains wonderful
anti-oxidants and very little saturated fat. It's good for us, right?
Yes,
in general olive oil is a wonderful, flavorful oil that has many
medicinal
values.

UNLESS, you have cancer. Then you are in trouble.

The two most pleniful fatty acids in body are the 16 carbon saturated
fat
palmitic acid and the 18:1 mono-unsaturated oleic acid. The medical
dogma
is that saturated fats are intrinsically bad for us while un-saturated
fats are good.

Wrong!!!

Saturated fatty acids like palmitic acid are VERY toxic to cancer cells,
while unsaturated fatty acids like oleic acid, the primary fatty acid in
olive oil, block apoptosis or programmed cell death in cancer and other
cells.

Although palmitic acid can be made in cells by an enzyme called fatty
acid
synthase (FAS), this palmitic acid is immediately converted to other,
growth promoting lipids. It's an interesting paradox that inhibiting FAS
(EGCG and flavonoids readily inhibit FAS) causes cancer cells to die at
an
accelerated rate, while FEEDING dietary palmitic acid to cancer cells
kills them by another mechanism.

The following paper shows that palmitic acid inhibits the synthesis of
cardiolipin, a lipid that is concentrated in the inner mitochondrial
membrane. This lipid complexes cytochrome C and prevents it from being
released out of the mitochondrial. The release of cytochrome C out of
mitochondria is THE signal for apoptosis or programmed cell death.
Cancer
cells go to great lengths to prevent this from happening. While dietary
palmitic acid promotes the release of cytochrome C, oleic acid (oleate)
prevents it by reactivating cardiolipin synthesis. This is not good news
if you have cancer.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/queryd.fcgi?
cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12805375

I am preparing a more extensive Blog on the biochemistry of palmitic
acid
on cancer cells.

Here is the problem. Triglycerides are fat molecules. They look like a
coat hanger that has three ties of unequal length hangling from it. The
ties are fatty acids. Olive oil contains primarily oleic acid, while
saturated fat in meat and milk products contains alot of palmitic acid.
The bottom line is that the palmitic acid and oleic acid tend to cancel
each other out, at least with respect to cancer growth.

A cancer diet would exclude all oils but flaxseed oil. The palmitic acid
must be fed as a free fatty acid in semi-pure form because there is no
other way to exclude the non-saturated fatty acids like oleic acid that
antagonize its anti-cancer abilities. Linoleic acid, the primary fatty
acid in most cooking oils, is a non-saturated fat that will also block
palmitic acid's cancer killing properties.

No, olive oil does not cause cancer. It's use is simply not appropriate
if
you are trying to kill cancer cells, and the oleic acid in olive oil is
working against you. Linoleic acid, in addition to blocking palmitic
acid's effects on mitochondrial integrity, is converted to
prostaglandins
and other molecules that contribute to cancer cell growth. We have
already
discussed in previous Blogs the horror and havoc these oils place on the
body.

In another Blog, I will tell you the story of the exciting new
anti-leukemia drug discovered in red algae. The scientists later
discovered it was just palmitic acid. I got the impression in reading
the
article that the authors were disappointed that they didn't discover
some
new exotic anti-cancer molecule. I mean, palmitic acid is NOT at all
sexy.
It just happens to work if other fats in the diet are minimized to
prevent
their interference with its anti-cancer properties.

So now you know. Foods can kill and they will if consumed under the
proper
conditions. In the case of flaxseed, the pre-lignans will not be
converted
to lignans in the intestines if the bacterial propulation is reduced due
to excessive antibiotic use or excessive fat intake. Palmitic acid in
free
fatty acid form will kill cancer cells, or at a minimum make them
incredibly unstable, if other interfering fats like linoleic acid and
oleic acid are rigidly excluded from the diet.

So eat lots of flaxmeal muffins and smoothies and be happy. But use ONLY
the brown flax seed. It can be purchased in bulk in most high end
markets
or health food stores. The golden flax seed contains NO oil.

Stay tuned...and don't forget to contact me if you find another
anti-cancer food. Be realistic...if you have to eat a ton of the stuff
to
get an affect it's worthless.

Grouppe Kurosawa, Medicine in the Public Interest
(http://www.grouppekurosawa.com)

------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------------------------
Sandy L - 02 Aug 2005 02:22 GMT
> I'm not sure that I should be posting this sort of thing here (and would
> be grateful for any comments about this), but I came across a message
[quoted text clipped - 177 lines]
> anne@ibchelp.org]
> ------------------------------------------------

It's sort of off-topic, but flax is the source of linen.  Flax seed oil is
linseed oil.  It's cheaper at the paint store, but I don't know if there are
differences that would make a gallon purchased there qualitatively different
from capsules purchased at a pharmacy or health foods store.
Tim Jackson - 02 Aug 2005 10:38 GMT
> I'm not sure that I should be posting this sort of thing here (and would
> be grateful for any comments about this), but I came across a message
> that seemed interesting in an IBC mailing list. I don't know anything
> about the subject or this message.
>
> Best wishes,

Someone posted what appeared to be a covert advertisement for this recently.

Looking around the internet I see that there have been a number of small
studies done on the benefits of flaxseed.  Some have shown benefits,
some have not, but nothing really statistically significant (unless of
course you selectively read only the positive ones).

One caveat.  Some recommend grinding up your own flax seeds and baking
the flour into cakes.  This would give a very uncertain dose of whatever
ingredient is active.  If it is effective against cancer it would most
likely be dose-critical, and home-ground medication without any analysis
or quality control would be unlikely to work.

Tim Jackson
marilyn@utrillo.ac - 02 Aug 2005 11:26 GMT
>One caveat.  Some recommend grinding up your own flax seeds and baking
>the flour into cakes.  This would give a very uncertain dose of whatever
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Tim Jackson

I only know about flax because I can't eat flour, and flax seed can
make a kind of porridge for breakfast heated up with water.  Nasty,
slimy stuff.  

I was told not to let it boil, because that destroyed all the
nutrients in the flax.  I don't know if cooking it at the heat needed
for muffins would do the same thing.

Marilyn
Gabriel - 02 Aug 2005 15:00 GMT
I wrote:

> > I'm not sure that I should be posting this sort of thing here (and would
> > be grateful for any comments about this),
...
> > flax seed

Tim Jackson responded:

> Someone posted what appeared to be a covert advertisement for this recently.
>
> ... around the internet ...  
> studies done on the benefits of flaxseed ... nothing ... significant.

Thanks for the correction, and apologies for spreading what appears to
be a covert advertisement, which generated comments in the IBC mailing
from a number of people making flax muffins. I will try to get Tim's
information to them.

I'll state explicitly that I am not trying to market, sell, or advertise
anything at all. I am looking for anything useful for my wife, and will
post anything that seems worthwhile, but will check more carefully; and  
I will not feed my wife birdseed.

I will withdraw my offending posting so nobody who hasn't already seen
it will receive it (except through Google groups).

Best wishes,
Signature

Gabriel

Tim Jackson - 02 Aug 2005 17:22 GMT
> I will withdraw my offending posting so nobody who hasn't already seen
> it will receive it (except through Google groups).

I don't think anyone was offended by your post: net rumours are a
subject worth discussing.  Better that everyone get to add their opinion
and a genuine consensus is reached rather than snake-oil promoters get
to advertise unchecked.  Not that I am saying this particular one is
snake-oil, there does appear to be -some- evidence of a genuine effect,
but I personally find it hard to make the jump from that observation to
advocating eating the stuff.

Anyway, cancelling posts doesn't do much, many ISPs ignore cancellation
posts because it is too easy to fake them and cancel someone else's posts.

Tim
Bea - - 02 Aug 2005 18:53 GMT
What is this about Olive Oil being bad for bc?  I switched to Olive Oil
recently because I read it was better for people with high cholesterol .
I guess one has to decide what is more important.  Protecting one's
heart or risking bc again.  It's all a big crap shoot and no matter what
we try to do we soon find out it is wrong.
Maybe I should just go outside and eat the grass.  Anyone know anything
wrong with eating grass?  My kid's cat loves it and seems to be thriving
so far.

Bea
Eva - 02 Aug 2005 22:21 GMT
> Maybe I should just go outside and eat the grass.  Anyone know anything
> wrong with eating grass?  My kid's cat loves it and seems to be thriving
> so far.
------------
That's what's wrong with eating grass--cats piss on it!

Eva
Teddy - 03 Aug 2005 09:40 GMT
Actually cats urinate on dirt. But dogs deficate on grass.
Tim Jackson - 03 Aug 2005 22:20 GMT
> Anyone know anything wrong with eating grass?  

You don't have enough stomachs to digest it - it's mostly cellulose: you
either have to ferment it for ages to digest the cellulose, like a cow
(with associated embarrassing methane production!), or eat masses of it
and pass the bulk of it through unused, like a horse.  (OK if you grow
roses.)  And it plays hell with your teeth.

I've heard the cat uses it as a sort of roughage to deal with hairballs.

Tim
marilyn@utrillo.ac - 03 Aug 2005 22:39 GMT
>I've heard the cat uses it as a sort of roughage to deal with hairballs.
>
>Tim

Yes, my kitty would eat grass and throw it up after he came in the
house. A charming habit.

Marilyn
Eva - 04 Aug 2005 00:35 GMT
> >I've heard the cat uses it as a sort of roughage to deal with hairballs.
>
> Yes, my kitty would eat grass and throw it up after he came in the
> house. A charming habit.
-------------
Mine still does.  Pounce Hairball Treats seem to make her do it less often.

Eva
Bea - - 04 Aug 2005 01:12 GMT
>You don't have enough stomachs to digest it -
> it's mostly cellulose: you either have to
> ferment it for ages to digest the cellulose, like
> a cow (with   -snip-

Jumping Crazy Jezebel!  Isn't there ANY subject you don't know something
about, Tim?  You even know about grass??  I think you need to stop
reading all those books and go out and do something fun like maybe
"line-dancing".  They do do cowboy line-dancing in the UK, I hope.  My
old mom used to say too much book reading could make someone crazy  so
you can tell from my posts I am completely sane!<g

Thanks anyway, Tim.  I think I will eat the dirt instead. (Now don't try
telling me that's bad because we ate it as kids and look at me today!)

Bea
Tim Jackson - 04 Aug 2005 12:09 GMT
>>You don't have enough stomachs to digest it -
>>it's mostly cellulose: you either have to
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Thanks anyway, Tim.  I think I will eat the dirt instead. (Now don't try
> telling me that's bad because we ate it as kids and look at me today!)

Oh no, I wouldn't deny you that.  Eating dirt when you are kids is
supposed to be important because it primes your immune system.  I don't
know it does any good when you are adult though.  If you make a habit of
it, you might need to take tapeworm tablets occasionally.

I think I'll give line-dancing a miss.  Here is rural north-west England
it would probably have to be clog dancing anyway, although they do have
line dancing clubs in some places.

It does reminds me of another a pet theory of mine, which is pure
speculation and without evidence, which is that kissing works the same
way.  I speculate that we exchange saliva as a sort of inoculation
against one-another's flora before opening up a wider channel of
exchange in having sex.  There is evidence that family members tend to
share bacterial and virus populations.

Tim
A. P. Thorsen - 08 Aug 2005 21:49 GMT
> It does reminds me of another a pet theory of mine, which is pure
> speculation and without evidence, which is that kissing works the same
> way.  I speculate that we exchange saliva as a sort of inoculation
> against one-another's flora before opening up a wider channel of
> exchange in having sex.  There is evidence that family members tend to
> share bacterial and virus populations.

Dang, Tim, you're just all romance, aren't you? <VBG>

Ann T.
Remove 'dontsendspam' from address to reply by email
su-texas@webtv.net - 03 Aug 2005 16:53 GMT
Also, heating the ground flaxseed or the flaxseed oil, might destroy any
healthful benefits.

???

At health food stores, the flaxseed oil is kept refrigerated.

Susan, Su_Texas  my opinions
Gabriel - 03 Aug 2005 18:11 GMT
Susan, Su_Texas's  opinions:

> Also, heating the ground flaxseed or the flaxseed oil, might destroy any
> healthful benefits.
>
> ???
>
> At health food stores, the flaxseed oil is kept refrigerated.

As there seems to be some interest in this topic:

Some people in the IBC mailing list are making flax seed muffins.

The paper quoted in the IBC mailing list is "Dietary flaxseed alters
tumor biological markers in postmenopausal breast cancer", URL is
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/queryd.fcgi?
cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15897583
(This needs to be all on one line).

[While this is published presumably by medical researchers in a
professional journal, this is not a guarantee: pharmaceutical companies
have enough clout, not to falsify results, but to ensure that favourable
results tend to be published, unfavourable not.]

Some websites I have bookmarked for my own use:

IbcWatch Evidence-based Research
http://ibcwatch.evidencewatch.com/

IBC Support: Mailing List archive
http://www.ibcsupport.org/list/archive/

IBC Support
http://www.ibcsupport.org/resources.html

IBC resources
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt.support.cancer.breast/browse_frm/th
read/893f1f5363d65ffa/7210f1f1f2597719?tvc=1
&q=mailing+list+inflammatory+breast+cancer&hl=en#7210f1f1f2597719
(This needs to be all on one line).

HTH,
Signature

Gabriel

Monique Latremouille - 13 Aug 2005 19:57 GMT
>Someone posted what appeared to be a covert advertisement for this recently.
>
>Looking around the internet I see that there have been a number of small
>studies done on the benefits of flaxseed.  Some have shown benefits,
>some have not, but nothing really statistically significant (unless of
>course you selectively read only the positive ones).

A brochure I took at the drugstore advised that flaxseed is
contraindicated in cases of ER positive cancers.  "The lignan
contained in flax is a phytoestrogen and consequently, it can directly
stimulate the growth of an estrogen-dependent tumour".
 
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