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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Breast Cancer / April 2005

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French language on alt.support.cancer.breast

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Monique Latremouille - 22 Apr 2005 23:19 GMT
Is it allowed ?
Tim Jackson - 23 Apr 2005 01:14 GMT
> Is it allowed ?

Certainly, this is a public place and you may speak as you would in any
public place

As most of the writers here speak English first, you may find few
replies to your posts, although we have at least once before had one
answered in French.

Personally I probably know enough simple French to understand what you
are talking about, but not enough to reply sensibly in the same language.

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Monique Latremouille - 23 Apr 2005 13:02 GMT
> > Is it allowed ?
> Certainly, this is a public place and you may speak as you would in any
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Personally I probably know enough simple French to understand what you
> are talking about, but not enough to reply sensibly in the same language.

This is all I need.  I can speak English, but not well enough to explain
exactly my questions/problems, however I would understand responses in
English.

J'ai subi une intervention chirurgicale le 15 mars.  L'ablation d'une
tumeur cancéreuse et de quelques ganglions lymphatiques. L'analyse des
résultats a révélé qu'un des ganglions est positif.  À cause de ce
ganglion contaminé, je devrai subir une chimiothérapie.  L'analyse a
aussi montré qu'il y avait des "marges positives".  C'est-à-dire que
l'extérieur des tissus entourant la tumeur était cancéreux lui aussi.
Quand le chirurgien m'a appris la nouvelle, il m'a offert un choix :
enlever une nouvelle tranche de tissus ou enlever tout le sein. Je lui
ai demandé d'essayer de le sauver.

Cette semaine, le 19 avril, j'ai donc subi une deuxième opération pour
enlever cette nouvelle tranche de tissus.

Depuis que le chirurgien m'a appris les résultats de la première
opération, je me traite au Graviola.  Trente gouttes dans un peu de jus
d'ananas, trois fois par jour.  Je prends aussi des capsules d'extrait
de grenadine (pomegranate).

Je me demande si je pourrais courir le risque de refuser la
chimiothérapie (c'est quand même un poison qu'on nous injecte dans
l'organisme) pour continuer de me soigner avec le Graviola. Je lis, ici
et la, que ce produit peut remplacer la chimiothérapie, qu'il tue les
cellules cancéreuses sans endommager les bonnes cellules.  Qu'en
pensez-vous ?

Monique
Anthony - 23 Apr 2005 14:43 GMT
> J'ai subi une intervention chirurgicale le 15 mars.  L'ablation d'une
> tumeur cancéreuse et de quelques ganglions lymphatiques. L'analyse des
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Monique

Graviola is a herbal extract in the "alternative medecine" category, meaning
that there are, as far as I'm aware, no scientific trials which demonstrate
its effectiveness.  Whether to decline standard chemo and use such a
treatment is, of course, a personal choice but the great weight of evidence
shows that chemo works, though unfortunately not for everyone.  With
positive nodes you are at relatively high risk and I believe that you will
give yourself the best chance of recovery by going with the chemo.  Whatever
your choice, I wish you the best in dealing with this horrible disease.
Tim Jackson - 23 Apr 2005 19:28 GMT
> This is all I need.  I can speak English, but not well enough to explain
> exactly my questions/problems, however I would understand responses in
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> Monique

I doubt very much that any herbal remedy can substitute for
chemotherapy.  There are a lot of people, especially on the Internet,
who would like to convince you that their product can, but that is
because they hope to make a lot of money out of it.

Approved treatments are tested in scientifically controlled trials
before that are allowed to be used on the general public.  Most vendors
of herbal remedies are unable to produce any serious statistical
evidence that their treatment actually works, in particular that it
reduces the risk of cancer recurrence.

As to the risk of refusing chemotherapy, that depends on two main
factors.  One is how much risk you have of recurrence without
chemotherapy, which depends mostly on the size of the tumour and number
of positive nodes (and also on a lot of lesser factors like histological
grade and hormone receptor status).  One node positive typically
indicates about a 25% risk I think.  The other is how old you are, for
two reasons.  If you are young, cancers tend to be more aggressive and
grow faster, and if you are young you potentially have a lot more life
to lose.  In your case I would think chemotherapy would be indicated if
you are under 70, especially as you opted for conservative surgery.

I'm sorry, there is no easy way out.

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Monique Latremouille - 23 Apr 2005 22:42 GMT
> > Je me demande si je pourrais courir le risque de refuser la
> > chimiothérapie (c'est quand même un poison qu'on nous injecte dans
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>[...]
> I'm sorry, there is no easy way out.

Thank you for the responses, yours and Anthony's. I will think about
it. If only doctors were better informed about alternative medicines!
But with the current medical system, it is "either or".  And ignorance
is on both sides.  I don't fully trust the medical system, nor do I
fully trust the alternative way. About chemotherapy, how can you
combat a disease when you vomit everything you eat and keep losing
weight because of that poison that was injected in your veins ?  This
does not make any sense to me.

Oh well, I'm not there yet. The surgeon will probably give me the
results of the analysis when he removes the stiches, on May 6. At that
time, I suppose he will refer me to an oncologist to discuss
treatment.  I remember that when he informed me I had a tumerous
cancer, he mentioned radiation. That doesn't sound good to me either.
Radiation is supposed to be *bad* for your health.  We are told not to
stand in front of a microwave oven.  And I would be sent these rays
directly on my breast ?  This is scary.  I'm really afraid that
doctors will do me more harm than good.  This is why I'm exploring
other options, more natural.
Anthony - 24 Apr 2005 00:09 GMT
> Thank you for the responses, yours and Anthony's. I will think about
> it. If only doctors were better informed about alternative medicines!
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> doctors will do me more harm than good.  This is why I'm exploring
> other options, more natural.

It sounds as though your real need is for someone to be a support to you
through this thing, with whom you could discuss the various options.  Your
beliefs do not accord with mine or Tim's; we both think that taking the
accepted medical route will give you your best chance although there is no
guarantee.  And your view of the horrors of chemo are, I think, from a
bygone age, although of course it does affect people differently.  My wife
had two years of chemo, her nausea was well controlled by medicine and she
lost no weight.  And at the end of the day, whatever the outcome, I think it
is very desirable to be able to say that you gave it your best.  Anyway,
good luck.
J - 24 Apr 2005 00:26 GMT
> Oh well, I'm not there yet. The surgeon will probably give me the
> results of the analysis when he removes the stiches, on May 6. At that
> time, I suppose he will refer me to an oncologist to discuss
> treatment.  I remember that when he informed me I had a tumerous
> cancer, he mentioned radiation. That doesn't sound good to me either.

If alternative medicines worked, doctors would use them for themselves and
their loved ones.
I'm sorry you have such old-fashioned ideas. Those ideas may well be the
cause of your death.

My sister-in-law lives in Quebec. Conventional medicine saved her
husband's life (heart problem).
Conventional medicine (surgery and radiation therapy) cured her best
friend of cancer of the cervix?(col de l'utérus) 8 years ago .
Conventional (surgery and radiation therapy) medicine cured the same best
friend of non-invasive breast cancer .
Conventional medicine (surgery and radiation therapy) prolonged the life
of another of her friends who had pancreatic cancer - a non curable
type/stage of cancer.
Your breast cancer may be curable if you follow the oncologist's
recommendations.
Work with them; they'll help you with side effects.

If you look to alternative/natural medicine, you will almost certainly
die, unfortunately for you and your loved ones.
J
Monique Latremouille - 24 Apr 2005 00:51 GMT
> > Oh well, I'm not there yet. The surgeon will probably give me the
> > results of the analysis when he removes the stiches, on May 6. At that
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> If alternative medicines worked, doctors would use them for themselves and
> their loved ones.

Doctors don't know about them.

> I'm sorry you have such old-fashioned ideas. Those ideas may well be the
> cause of your death.

But may well be the cause of my survival.

> My sister-in-law lives in Quebec. Conventional medicine saved her
> husband's life (heart problem).
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> of another of her friends who had pancreatic cancer - a non curable
> type/stage of cancer.

Glad to know. It reassures me now that I have a finger stuck in the
mesh of the Quebec medical system. Not only a finger, an arm, I would
say.

> Your breast cancer may be curable if you follow the oncologist's
> recommendations.
> Work with them; they'll help you with side effects.

This is my intention.  For instance, I don't want any "Adriamycin"
injected in my veins.  There is another drug, approved by Health
Canada, Caelyx, which is supposed to be as effective without the side
effects of Adriamycin.

> If you look to alternative/natural medicine, you will almost certainly
> die, unfortunately for you and your loved ones.

Bof.  J'ai vu un proche mourir du cancer. Il avait subi la
chimiothérapie qui l'avait fait vomir/maigrir pendant un an, années au
bout duquel il est mort.  J'ai toujours pensé que la chimiothérapie
l'avait tué ou au moins donné une dernière année de vie très
désagréable. S'il ne l'avait pas subie, il aurait conservé son poids,
sa résistance naturelle contre la maladie. En tout cas, moi j'aimerais
mieux mourir vite que de subir toutes les souffrances qu'il a
endurées.
marilyn@utrillo.ac - 24 Apr 2005 01:23 GMT
Sometimes if the person is frail, or elderly, or very sick, or has
very advanced cancer, the effects of the chemo are worse than on an
otherwise healthy person.  Also some cancers grow faster and some are
harder to cure.

If we could see into the future we would always know which option to
pick, but  not being able to do that, I personally would listen very
carefully to my oncologists recommendations.

Marilyn

>Bof.  J'ai vu un proche mourir du cancer. Il avait subi la
>chimiothérapie qui l'avait fait vomir/maigrir pendant un an, années au
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>mieux mourir vite que de subir toutes les souffrances qu'il a
>endurées.
J - 24 Apr 2005 05:30 GMT
> "J" <author@anon.inv> wrote in message
> > If alternative medicines worked, doctors would use them forthemselves
> and
> > their loved ones.
>
> Doctors don't know about them.

All doctors in the world have access to this
http://www.bccancer.bc.ca/HPI/UnconventionalTherapies/default.htm (it's
not comprehensive, new claims/products are made everyday).

We have two doctors on alt.support.cancer who know about almost all of
them.
For years now, we're read their claims, one Dr. Peter Moran has personally
investigated almost all of them.
They've all been "shot down"..no proof of efficacy, missing information,
misdiagnoses, etc.
We have also seen newsgroup patients die from pursuing alternatives.
We have also debunked those who have made claims of cancer and did not
have.
We've also compiled information about various patients, around the world,
who've "gone altie" and died.
My father-in law died because of his fear of doctors and medicines.
Shrug! It was no big loss to the family. His lifestyle and attitude
towards family was an embarrassment.

> <snip>
> > Your breast cancer may be curable if you follow the oncologist's
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Canada, Caelyx, which is supposed to be as effective without the side
> effects of Adriamycin.

Caelyx is also IV http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/100000406.html
To be discussed with the oncologst. At this point, if I've understood, you
don't even have the pathology report back yet.
The folks here will help you understand the meaning of the pathology
report.

> > If you look to alternative/natural medicine, you will almost certainly
>
> > die, unfortunately for you and your loved ones.
>
> Bof.  J'ai vu un proche mourir du cancer.

Moi aussi. Not everyone can be saved.
For every 100 cancers cured, surgery cures about 50, radiotherapy about 40

and chemotherapy at best 10. That's just the way it is.....

> Il avait subi la
> chimiothérapie qui l'avait fait vomir/maigrir pendant un an, années au
> bout duquel il est mort.

Possible. Too much faith is placed in chemotherapy.
Your oncologist won't push something on you that is not called for, for
your breast cancer.
You can discuss choices with him/her.

>  J'ai toujours pensé que la chimiothérapie
> l'avait tué ou au moins donné une dernière année de vie très
> désagréable.

Steph's Questions to Ask, would have been advantageous for the patient to
have.
See the bottom section of this post, please.
The link right above it is the English Version.
<http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.med.diseases.cancer/msg/1e7d2d30e5673b9d
?hl=en
>

> S'il ne l'avait pas subie, il aurait conservé son poids,
> sa résistance naturelle contre la maladie.

No such thing (résistance naturelle), if you're talking cancer, unless you
are speaking of kidney cancer, where  remissions sometimes occur by
removal of the kidney which has the cancer in it.

> En tout cas, moi j'aimerais
> mieux mourir vite que de subir toutes les souffrances qu'il a
> endurées.

Your choice after discussing treatments and see Steph's Questions to Ask.
In fact, take a printout of it with you to discuss it with the oncologist.

Radiation therapy could prevent local recurrence. You may want to consider
it, since you've chose breast conserving surgery.
Nobody is going to force you. You have to deal with the consequences.
Best wishes with your choices, Monique.
J
allan grossman - 24 Apr 2005 11:11 GMT
>This is my intention.  For instance, I don't want any "Adriamycin"
>injected in my veins.  There is another drug, approved by Health
>Canada, Caelyx, which is supposed to be as effective without the side
>effects of Adriamycin.

Caelyx *is* Adriamycin, Monique - it's just encapsulated in fat cells.
The mechanism of action is the same but the drug is better tolerated
in a lot of people.

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allan

we don't see things as they are, we see them as we are.
-- Anais Nin

Monique Latremouille - 24 Apr 2005 12:26 GMT
> >This is my intention.  For instance, I don't want any "Adriamycin"
> >injected in my veins.  There is another drug, approved by Health
> >Canada, Caelyx, which is supposed to be as effective without the side
> >effects of Adriamycin.
>
> Caelyx *is* Adriamycin, Monique -

No. Both are doxorubicin, but they are different brands.

>it's just encapsulated in fat cells.

I know.

> The mechanism of action is the same but the drug is better tolerated
> in a lot of people.

I know.  This is why I will ask for it.
allan grossman - 24 Apr 2005 17:09 GMT
>No. Both are doxorubicin, but they are different brands.

That's kind of what I meant  ;-)

Signature

allan

we don't see things as they are, we see them as we are.
-- Anais Nin

allan grossman - 24 Apr 2005 11:31 GMT
>Bof.  J'ai vu un proche mourir du cancer. Il avait subi la
>chimiothérapie qui l'avait fait vomir/maigrir pendant un an, années au
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>mieux mourir vite que de subir toutes les souffrances qu'il a
>endurées.

As others have said, chemotherapy has changed quite a bit in the last
several years, Monique.  I'm sorry that your relative had such a bad
year before he passed away, but I doubt that chemotherapy killed him
(I'm going to assume your relative is male even though Babelfish says
"it".  If I am incorrect, please forgive me).

The cancer that did kill him could not be controlled by his natural
resistance to disease, otherwise he wouldn't have had cancer in the
first place, yes?

I can understand someone not wanting to go through that - but not
everybody does.  My wife has had three separate courses of
chemotherapy using four different drugs including eight treatments
with Adriamycin and though it was no picnic it was tolerable.

It seems to me that your argument is based in fear, Monique - and
that's pretty normal.  I can tell you not to be afraid but it won't do
much good, I think.  My experience with a relative and chemotherapy is
a lot different than yours - and I think if you asked my wife if she'd
do it again she would.  She's been undergoing cancer treatment for
almost six years and as I said has had three courses of chemotherapy.
She hasn't vomited one time.  She did lose her hair once and fatigue
was a problem for awhile, but even the time when she was most tired
from chemo life was pretty good.

Signature

allan

we don't see things as they are, we see them as we are.
-- Anais Nin

Monique Latremouille - 24 Apr 2005 12:43 GMT
> I can understand someone not wanting to go through that - but not
> everybody does.  My wife has had three separate courses of
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> that's pretty normal.  I can tell you not to be afraid but it won't do
> much good, I think.

Yes, I am afraid of treatments specifically designed to harm. That is
killing good cells.  But I don't have much choice.  I would not want the
cancer to spread to my liver, for instance.  This is what happened to
one of my aunt and she suffered extremely before her death.  It had
started with breast cancer, she had a mastectomy but was not offered
chemotherapy.  I suppose the doctors thought that by removing the whole
breast, there was no longer any danger.  But that was about 15 years
ago.
allan grossman - 24 Apr 2005 17:13 GMT
>Yes, I am afraid of treatments specifically designed to harm.

I don't blame you at all.  I'd be afraid too.

>That is killing good cells.  But I don't have much choice.  I would not
>want the cancer to spread to my liver, for instance.  This is what
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>by removing the whole breast, there was no longer any danger.  
>But that was about 15 years ago.

Sometimes it happens, Monique.  There is a standard of care for breast
cancer and we know a lot more now than we did 15 years ago.  You've
got enough experience to know cancer treatment isn't an exact science.
If the tumor is small and there's no lymph node involvement they
normally don't offer you chemotherapy.  Sometimes it's already too
late, though - as you found with your aunt.

There is a new test called a circulating tumor cell (CTC) test that
you might want to ask for - it looks for cancer cells in your blood
and can be a pretty good indicator of what kind of treatment you
should have.

My wife's cancer had spread to her lungs before we discovered she had
cancer - and this August will be six years since her diagnosis.  As I
mentioned earlier she's had a fair bit of chemotherapy that was
effective for awhile, but what's keeping her alive now is a drug
called Herceptin.  Not everyone can take it, but for us it's been a
lifesaver.

At some point the cancer will probably take her but right now she's in
remission for the second time and life is good.  This isn't
necessarily a death sentence, but I do know how frightening it is.  I
think at some times it's harder to love someone with cancer than to
have cancer yourself.  Not all the time, but sometimes.

It's normal to be afraid, Monique.  I think Caelyx is a good idea but
don't know how the Canadian healthcare system works.  It's more
expensive than Adriamycin but I don't know if that's a factor in
Canada.

Hang in there - this is a pretty good group.  We're glad to have you.

Signature

allan

we don't see things as they are, we see them as we are.
-- Anais Nin

marilyn@utrillo.ac - 24 Apr 2005 01:24 GMT
>Thank you for the responses, yours and Anthony's. I will think about
>it. If only doctors were better informed about alternative medicines!
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>weight because of that poison that was injected in your veins ?  This
>does not make any sense to me.

Hi Monique,

I didn't like having chemo, but  did not vomit at all.  There are
wonderful drugs that help with nausea and ginger will help also. Any
nausea you might have only lasts a day or two.

I didn't lose any weight during chemo, au contraire, in fact.  I did
feel as if there was poison in my body for one or two days each time,
but that feeling didn't last.  I slept a great deal, but many people
continue working all through their treatments and carry on a normal
life.

Each person is different, but many of us did not have any problems at
all with radiation.

I'll be thinking of you.

Marilyn
Tim Jackson - 24 Apr 2005 10:00 GMT
> TAbout chemotherapy, how can you
> combat a disease when you vomit everything you eat and keep losing
> weight because of that poison that was injected in your veins ?  This
> does not make any sense to me.

The point is that unlike an infectious disease, cancer cells are an
awful lot like your own body cells, and the immune system ignores them.
 So unfortunately any treatment which can damage cancer cells also
damages some normal cells, make you ill and make your hair fall out.

Conventional chemotherapy uses chemicals which are mainly harmful to
cells in the process of division.  Cells which divide rapidly spend a
bigger proportion of their time in the division phase when they are
vulnerable, so tissues composed of such cells suffer the most damage.
Non-cancer cells which divide rapidly include blood and hair, and these
suffer damage too.  The dosage of chemotherapy is basically decided by
estimating how much of it your blood can stand.

As others have said, for most people the vomiting issue is not major, in
the last 20 years or so a new class of drugs has been developed which
control this well, so it's not like cancer treatment was in our parents'
day.

> I remember that when he informed me I had a tumerous
> cancer, he mentioned radiation. That doesn't sound good to me either.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> doctors will do me more harm than good.  This is why I'm exploring
> other options, more natural.

Getting radiation is a necessary part of the choice of having
conservative surgery.  The only way you can safely avoid radiation if
the tumour is small enough and localised enough is to have a complete
mastectomy.  Anyway, if nodes are involved they would probably recommend
radiation anyway.

Yes radiation is damaging to normal tissues, and slightly increases the
risk of other cancers.  But the cancer you have/had is a much bigger
issue, and its recurrence a bigger risk.

Radiation damages the DNA in your cells.  The damaged cells will mostly
use their DNA repair mechanisms to recover, some will die, and
occasionally one may undergo cancerous changes.  Cancer cells have no
DNA repair mechanism, and so always die.  It is an essential part of a
cell becoming cancerous that the DNA repair mechanism is first disabled
so that the 'rogue' DNA of cancer is allowed to proliferate.  You may
read about abnormal "P53" proteins, this is a major part of this mechanism.

The medical mainstream spends a lot of time and effort in doing
extensive trials of treatments to determine how effective and safe they
are. Working out the harm/good balance is what it is all about.  Before
making a personal judgement on this I think it is a good idea to look at
the evidence - research and statistics - that have been collected by
others.  If you are not able or willing to do the research yourself,
then you really have to take the experts' (whoever you trust) word for it.

I don't deny that economics comes into it too, and that not all
researchers are entirely honest and open about their results, but that
mostly applies to new drugs within their patent lifetime.  I think you
can be fairly confident that old established drugs' behaviour and risk
is well known.

"Natural" doesn't mean harmless.  Curare is natural!  A herbal extract
is no more natural than many mainstream drugs: both are produced by
taking plant material and purifying essences from it.  What is different
is that the dosage of active ingredient in approved drugs is carefully
controlled.  With herbals you are taking a much more vaguely known
quantity.  In the context of cancer, where we are necessarily working
close to the edge between good and harm, control is everything.

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alex - 24 Apr 2005 17:30 GMT
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/whatiscam/

The is research on going regarding alternative therapy ...therapy which is
used with traditional therapy.
WillMore - 24 Apr 2005 22:11 GMT
> http://nccam.nih.gov/health/whatiscam/
>
> The is research on going regarding alternative therapy ...therapy which is
> used with traditional therapy.

That is great advice.
I combined the traditional with homeopathic.
A good homeopathic Dr. should be able to help you get through the chemo
by providing natural solutions to ease any chemo side effects ( or to
avoid them.).
In addition, you may also be able to take your natural immune booster too
if it is not counter indicated for your chemo.
However, your homeopathic Dr. must be experienced in this method, so
finding one that is capable may be the hard part.
It is not an either or situation.
Let your body have the best available of both types of theraphy so you
may enjoy the rest of your life.
Sandy L - 23 Apr 2005 01:49 GMT
> Is it allowed ?

Try also:
http://bca.ns.ca/Support/francais/ubbthreads.php?
 
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