Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Breast Cancer / April 2005
French language on alt.support.cancer.breast
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Monique Latremouille - 22 Apr 2005 23:19 GMT Is it allowed ?
Tim Jackson - 23 Apr 2005 01:14 GMT > Is it allowed ? Certainly, this is a public place and you may speak as you would in any public place
As most of the writers here speak English first, you may find few replies to your posts, although we have at least once before had one answered in French.
Personally I probably know enough simple French to understand what you are talking about, but not enough to reply sensibly in the same language.
 Signature Tim Jackson
-Who needs to pay Microsoft? Free Open Source Software- www.mozilla.org FIREFOX Web Browser, THUNDERBIRD Email/News www.openoffice.org Office Suite
Monique Latremouille - 23 Apr 2005 13:02 GMT > > Is it allowed ? > Certainly, this is a public place and you may speak as you would in any [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Personally I probably know enough simple French to understand what you > are talking about, but not enough to reply sensibly in the same language. This is all I need. I can speak English, but not well enough to explain exactly my questions/problems, however I would understand responses in English.
J'ai subi une intervention chirurgicale le 15 mars. L'ablation d'une tumeur cancéreuse et de quelques ganglions lymphatiques. L'analyse des résultats a révélé qu'un des ganglions est positif. À cause de ce ganglion contaminé, je devrai subir une chimiothérapie. L'analyse a aussi montré qu'il y avait des "marges positives". C'est-à-dire que l'extérieur des tissus entourant la tumeur était cancéreux lui aussi. Quand le chirurgien m'a appris la nouvelle, il m'a offert un choix : enlever une nouvelle tranche de tissus ou enlever tout le sein. Je lui ai demandé d'essayer de le sauver.
Cette semaine, le 19 avril, j'ai donc subi une deuxième opération pour enlever cette nouvelle tranche de tissus.
Depuis que le chirurgien m'a appris les résultats de la première opération, je me traite au Graviola. Trente gouttes dans un peu de jus d'ananas, trois fois par jour. Je prends aussi des capsules d'extrait de grenadine (pomegranate).
Je me demande si je pourrais courir le risque de refuser la chimiothérapie (c'est quand même un poison qu'on nous injecte dans l'organisme) pour continuer de me soigner avec le Graviola. Je lis, ici et la, que ce produit peut remplacer la chimiothérapie, qu'il tue les cellules cancéreuses sans endommager les bonnes cellules. Qu'en pensez-vous ?
Monique
Anthony - 23 Apr 2005 14:43 GMT > J'ai subi une intervention chirurgicale le 15 mars. L'ablation d'une > tumeur cancéreuse et de quelques ganglions lymphatiques. L'analyse des [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Monique Graviola is a herbal extract in the "alternative medecine" category, meaning that there are, as far as I'm aware, no scientific trials which demonstrate its effectiveness. Whether to decline standard chemo and use such a treatment is, of course, a personal choice but the great weight of evidence shows that chemo works, though unfortunately not for everyone. With positive nodes you are at relatively high risk and I believe that you will give yourself the best chance of recovery by going with the chemo. Whatever your choice, I wish you the best in dealing with this horrible disease.
Tim Jackson - 23 Apr 2005 19:28 GMT > This is all I need. I can speak English, but not well enough to explain > exactly my questions/problems, however I would understand responses in [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Monique I doubt very much that any herbal remedy can substitute for chemotherapy. There are a lot of people, especially on the Internet, who would like to convince you that their product can, but that is because they hope to make a lot of money out of it.
Approved treatments are tested in scientifically controlled trials before that are allowed to be used on the general public. Most vendors of herbal remedies are unable to produce any serious statistical evidence that their treatment actually works, in particular that it reduces the risk of cancer recurrence.
As to the risk of refusing chemotherapy, that depends on two main factors. One is how much risk you have of recurrence without chemotherapy, which depends mostly on the size of the tumour and number of positive nodes (and also on a lot of lesser factors like histological grade and hormone receptor status). One node positive typically indicates about a 25% risk I think. The other is how old you are, for two reasons. If you are young, cancers tend to be more aggressive and grow faster, and if you are young you potentially have a lot more life to lose. In your case I would think chemotherapy would be indicated if you are under 70, especially as you opted for conservative surgery.
I'm sorry, there is no easy way out.
 Signature Tim Jackson
-Who needs to pay Microsoft? Free Open Source Software- www.mozilla.org FIREFOX Web Browser, THUNDERBIRD Email/News www.openoffice.org Office Suite
Monique Latremouille - 23 Apr 2005 22:42 GMT > > Je me demande si je pourrais courir le risque de refuser la > > chimiothérapie (c'est quand même un poison qu'on nous injecte dans [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >[...] > I'm sorry, there is no easy way out. Thank you for the responses, yours and Anthony's. I will think about it. If only doctors were better informed about alternative medicines! But with the current medical system, it is "either or". And ignorance is on both sides. I don't fully trust the medical system, nor do I fully trust the alternative way. About chemotherapy, how can you combat a disease when you vomit everything you eat and keep losing weight because of that poison that was injected in your veins ? This does not make any sense to me.
Oh well, I'm not there yet. The surgeon will probably give me the results of the analysis when he removes the stiches, on May 6. At that time, I suppose he will refer me to an oncologist to discuss treatment. I remember that when he informed me I had a tumerous cancer, he mentioned radiation. That doesn't sound good to me either. Radiation is supposed to be *bad* for your health. We are told not to stand in front of a microwave oven. And I would be sent these rays directly on my breast ? This is scary. I'm really afraid that doctors will do me more harm than good. This is why I'm exploring other options, more natural.
Anthony - 24 Apr 2005 00:09 GMT > Thank you for the responses, yours and Anthony's. I will think about > it. If only doctors were better informed about alternative medicines! [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > doctors will do me more harm than good. This is why I'm exploring > other options, more natural. It sounds as though your real need is for someone to be a support to you through this thing, with whom you could discuss the various options. Your beliefs do not accord with mine or Tim's; we both think that taking the accepted medical route will give you your best chance although there is no guarantee. And your view of the horrors of chemo are, I think, from a bygone age, although of course it does affect people differently. My wife had two years of chemo, her nausea was well controlled by medicine and she lost no weight. And at the end of the day, whatever the outcome, I think it is very desirable to be able to say that you gave it your best. Anyway, good luck.
J - 24 Apr 2005 00:26 GMT > Oh well, I'm not there yet. The surgeon will probably give me the > results of the analysis when he removes the stiches, on May 6. At that > time, I suppose he will refer me to an oncologist to discuss > treatment. I remember that when he informed me I had a tumerous > cancer, he mentioned radiation. That doesn't sound good to me either. If alternative medicines worked, doctors would use them for themselves and their loved ones. I'm sorry you have such old-fashioned ideas. Those ideas may well be the cause of your death.
My sister-in-law lives in Quebec. Conventional medicine saved her husband's life (heart problem). Conventional medicine (surgery and radiation therapy) cured her best friend of cancer of the cervix?(col de l'utérus) 8 years ago . Conventional (surgery and radiation therapy) medicine cured the same best friend of non-invasive breast cancer . Conventional medicine (surgery and radiation therapy) prolonged the life of another of her friends who had pancreatic cancer - a non curable type/stage of cancer. Your breast cancer may be curable if you follow the oncologist's recommendations. Work with them; they'll help you with side effects.
If you look to alternative/natural medicine, you will almost certainly die, unfortunately for you and your loved ones. J
Monique Latremouille - 24 Apr 2005 00:51 GMT > > Oh well, I'm not there yet. The surgeon will probably give me the > > results of the analysis when he removes the stiches, on May 6. At that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If alternative medicines worked, doctors would use them for themselves and > their loved ones. Doctors don't know about them.
> I'm sorry you have such old-fashioned ideas. Those ideas may well be the > cause of your death. But may well be the cause of my survival.
> My sister-in-law lives in Quebec. Conventional medicine saved her > husband's life (heart problem). [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > of another of her friends who had pancreatic cancer - a non curable > type/stage of cancer. Glad to know. It reassures me now that I have a finger stuck in the mesh of the Quebec medical system. Not only a finger, an arm, I would say.
> Your breast cancer may be curable if you follow the oncologist's > recommendations. > Work with them; they'll help you with side effects. This is my intention. For instance, I don't want any "Adriamycin" injected in my veins. There is another drug, approved by Health Canada, Caelyx, which is supposed to be as effective without the side effects of Adriamycin.
> If you look to alternative/natural medicine, you will almost certainly > die, unfortunately for you and your loved ones. Bof. J'ai vu un proche mourir du cancer. Il avait subi la chimiothérapie qui l'avait fait vomir/maigrir pendant un an, années au bout duquel il est mort. J'ai toujours pensé que la chimiothérapie l'avait tué ou au moins donné une dernière année de vie très désagréable. S'il ne l'avait pas subie, il aurait conservé son poids, sa résistance naturelle contre la maladie. En tout cas, moi j'aimerais mieux mourir vite que de subir toutes les souffrances qu'il a endurées.
marilyn@utrillo.ac - 24 Apr 2005 01:23 GMT Sometimes if the person is frail, or elderly, or very sick, or has very advanced cancer, the effects of the chemo are worse than on an otherwise healthy person. Also some cancers grow faster and some are harder to cure.
If we could see into the future we would always know which option to pick, but not being able to do that, I personally would listen very carefully to my oncologists recommendations.
Marilyn
>Bof. J'ai vu un proche mourir du cancer. Il avait subi la >chimiothérapie qui l'avait fait vomir/maigrir pendant un an, années au [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >mieux mourir vite que de subir toutes les souffrances qu'il a >endurées. J - 24 Apr 2005 05:30 GMT > "J" <author@anon.inv> wrote in message > > If alternative medicines worked, doctors would use them forthemselves > and > > their loved ones. > > Doctors don't know about them. All doctors in the world have access to this http://www.bccancer.bc.ca/HPI/UnconventionalTherapies/default.htm (it's not comprehensive, new claims/products are made everyday).
We have two doctors on alt.support.cancer who know about almost all of them. For years now, we're read their claims, one Dr. Peter Moran has personally investigated almost all of them. They've all been "shot down"..no proof of efficacy, missing information, misdiagnoses, etc. We have also seen newsgroup patients die from pursuing alternatives. We have also debunked those who have made claims of cancer and did not have. We've also compiled information about various patients, around the world, who've "gone altie" and died. My father-in law died because of his fear of doctors and medicines. Shrug! It was no big loss to the family. His lifestyle and attitude towards family was an embarrassment.
> <snip> > > Your breast cancer may be curable if you follow the oncologist's [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Canada, Caelyx, which is supposed to be as effective without the side > effects of Adriamycin. Caelyx is also IV http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/100000406.html To be discussed with the oncologst. At this point, if I've understood, you don't even have the pathology report back yet. The folks here will help you understand the meaning of the pathology report.
> > If you look to alternative/natural medicine, you will almost certainly > > > die, unfortunately for you and your loved ones. > > Bof. J'ai vu un proche mourir du cancer. Moi aussi. Not everyone can be saved. For every 100 cancers cured, surgery cures about 50, radiotherapy about 40
and chemotherapy at best 10. That's just the way it is.....
> Il avait subi la > chimiothérapie qui l'avait fait vomir/maigrir pendant un an, années au > bout duquel il est mort. Possible. Too much faith is placed in chemotherapy. Your oncologist won't push something on you that is not called for, for your breast cancer. You can discuss choices with him/her.
> J'ai toujours pensé que la chimiothérapie > l'avait tué ou au moins donné une dernière année de vie très > désagréable. Steph's Questions to Ask, would have been advantageous for the patient to have. See the bottom section of this post, please. The link right above it is the English Version. <http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.med.diseases.cancer/msg/1e7d2d30e5673b9d ?hl=en>
> S'il ne l'avait pas subie, il aurait conservé son poids, > sa résistance naturelle contre la maladie. No such thing (résistance naturelle), if you're talking cancer, unless you are speaking of kidney cancer, where remissions sometimes occur by removal of the kidney which has the cancer in it.
> En tout cas, moi j'aimerais > mieux mourir vite que de subir toutes les souffrances qu'il a > endurées. Your choice after discussing treatments and see Steph's Questions to Ask. In fact, take a printout of it with you to discuss it with the oncologist.
Radiation therapy could prevent local recurrence. You may want to consider it, since you've chose breast conserving surgery. Nobody is going to force you. You have to deal with the consequences. Best wishes with your choices, Monique. J
allan grossman - 24 Apr 2005 11:11 GMT >This is my intention. For instance, I don't want any "Adriamycin" >injected in my veins. There is another drug, approved by Health >Canada, Caelyx, which is supposed to be as effective without the side >effects of Adriamycin. Caelyx *is* Adriamycin, Monique - it's just encapsulated in fat cells. The mechanism of action is the same but the drug is better tolerated in a lot of people.
 Signature allan
we don't see things as they are, we see them as we are. -- Anais Nin
Monique Latremouille - 24 Apr 2005 12:26 GMT > >This is my intention. For instance, I don't want any "Adriamycin" > >injected in my veins. There is another drug, approved by Health > >Canada, Caelyx, which is supposed to be as effective without the side > >effects of Adriamycin. > > Caelyx *is* Adriamycin, Monique - No. Both are doxorubicin, but they are different brands.
>it's just encapsulated in fat cells. I know.
> The mechanism of action is the same but the drug is better tolerated > in a lot of people. I know. This is why I will ask for it.
allan grossman - 24 Apr 2005 17:09 GMT >No. Both are doxorubicin, but they are different brands. That's kind of what I meant ;-)
 Signature allan
we don't see things as they are, we see them as we are. -- Anais Nin
allan grossman - 24 Apr 2005 11:31 GMT >Bof. J'ai vu un proche mourir du cancer. Il avait subi la >chimiothérapie qui l'avait fait vomir/maigrir pendant un an, années au [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >mieux mourir vite que de subir toutes les souffrances qu'il a >endurées. As others have said, chemotherapy has changed quite a bit in the last several years, Monique. I'm sorry that your relative had such a bad year before he passed away, but I doubt that chemotherapy killed him (I'm going to assume your relative is male even though Babelfish says "it". If I am incorrect, please forgive me).
The cancer that did kill him could not be controlled by his natural resistance to disease, otherwise he wouldn't have had cancer in the first place, yes?
I can understand someone not wanting to go through that - but not everybody does. My wife has had three separate courses of chemotherapy using four different drugs including eight treatments with Adriamycin and though it was no picnic it was tolerable.
It seems to me that your argument is based in fear, Monique - and that's pretty normal. I can tell you not to be afraid but it won't do much good, I think. My experience with a relative and chemotherapy is a lot different than yours - and I think if you asked my wife if she'd do it again she would. She's been undergoing cancer treatment for almost six years and as I said has had three courses of chemotherapy. She hasn't vomited one time. She did lose her hair once and fatigue was a problem for awhile, but even the time when she was most tired from chemo life was pretty good.
 Signature allan
we don't see things as they are, we see them as we are. -- Anais Nin
Monique Latremouille - 24 Apr 2005 12:43 GMT > I can understand someone not wanting to go through that - but not > everybody does. My wife has had three separate courses of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that's pretty normal. I can tell you not to be afraid but it won't do > much good, I think. Yes, I am afraid of treatments specifically designed to harm. That is killing good cells. But I don't have much choice. I would not want the cancer to spread to my liver, for instance. This is what happened to one of my aunt and she suffered extremely before her death. It had started with breast cancer, she had a mastectomy but was not offered chemotherapy. I suppose the doctors thought that by removing the whole breast, there was no longer any danger. But that was about 15 years ago.
allan grossman - 24 Apr 2005 17:13 GMT >Yes, I am afraid of treatments specifically designed to harm. I don't blame you at all. I'd be afraid too.
>That is killing good cells. But I don't have much choice. I would not >want the cancer to spread to my liver, for instance. This is what [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >by removing the whole breast, there was no longer any danger. >But that was about 15 years ago. Sometimes it happens, Monique. There is a standard of care for breast cancer and we know a lot more now than we did 15 years ago. You've got enough experience to know cancer treatment isn't an exact science. If the tumor is small and there's no lymph node involvement they normally don't offer you chemotherapy. Sometimes it's already too late, though - as you found with your aunt.
There is a new test called a circulating tumor cell (CTC) test that you might want to ask for - it looks for cancer cells in your blood and can be a pretty good indicator of what kind of treatment you should have.
My wife's cancer had spread to her lungs before we discovered she had cancer - and this August will be six years since her diagnosis. As I mentioned earlier she's had a fair bit of chemotherapy that was effective for awhile, but what's keeping her alive now is a drug called Herceptin. Not everyone can take it, but for us it's been a lifesaver.
At some point the cancer will probably take her but right now she's in remission for the second time and life is good. This isn't necessarily a death sentence, but I do know how frightening it is. I think at some times it's harder to love someone with cancer than to have cancer yourself. Not all the time, but sometimes.
It's normal to be afraid, Monique. I think Caelyx is a good idea but don't know how the Canadian healthcare system works. It's more expensive than Adriamycin but I don't know if that's a factor in Canada.
Hang in there - this is a pretty good group. We're glad to have you.
 Signature allan
we don't see things as they are, we see them as we are. -- Anais Nin
marilyn@utrillo.ac - 24 Apr 2005 01:24 GMT >Thank you for the responses, yours and Anthony's. I will think about >it. If only doctors were better informed about alternative medicines! [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >weight because of that poison that was injected in your veins ? This >does not make any sense to me. Hi Monique,
I didn't like having chemo, but did not vomit at all. There are wonderful drugs that help with nausea and ginger will help also. Any nausea you might have only lasts a day or two.
I didn't lose any weight during chemo, au contraire, in fact. I did feel as if there was poison in my body for one or two days each time, but that feeling didn't last. I slept a great deal, but many people continue working all through their treatments and carry on a normal life.
Each person is different, but many of us did not have any problems at all with radiation.
I'll be thinking of you.
Marilyn
Tim Jackson - 24 Apr 2005 10:00 GMT > TAbout chemotherapy, how can you > combat a disease when you vomit everything you eat and keep losing > weight because of that poison that was injected in your veins ? This > does not make any sense to me. The point is that unlike an infectious disease, cancer cells are an awful lot like your own body cells, and the immune system ignores them. So unfortunately any treatment which can damage cancer cells also damages some normal cells, make you ill and make your hair fall out.
Conventional chemotherapy uses chemicals which are mainly harmful to cells in the process of division. Cells which divide rapidly spend a bigger proportion of their time in the division phase when they are vulnerable, so tissues composed of such cells suffer the most damage. Non-cancer cells which divide rapidly include blood and hair, and these suffer damage too. The dosage of chemotherapy is basically decided by estimating how much of it your blood can stand.
As others have said, for most people the vomiting issue is not major, in the last 20 years or so a new class of drugs has been developed which control this well, so it's not like cancer treatment was in our parents' day.
> I remember that when he informed me I had a tumerous > cancer, he mentioned radiation. That doesn't sound good to me either. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > doctors will do me more harm than good. This is why I'm exploring > other options, more natural. Getting radiation is a necessary part of the choice of having conservative surgery. The only way you can safely avoid radiation if the tumour is small enough and localised enough is to have a complete mastectomy. Anyway, if nodes are involved they would probably recommend radiation anyway.
Yes radiation is damaging to normal tissues, and slightly increases the risk of other cancers. But the cancer you have/had is a much bigger issue, and its recurrence a bigger risk.
Radiation damages the DNA in your cells. The damaged cells will mostly use their DNA repair mechanisms to recover, some will die, and occasionally one may undergo cancerous changes. Cancer cells have no DNA repair mechanism, and so always die. It is an essential part of a cell becoming cancerous that the DNA repair mechanism is first disabled so that the 'rogue' DNA of cancer is allowed to proliferate. You may read about abnormal "P53" proteins, this is a major part of this mechanism.
The medical mainstream spends a lot of time and effort in doing extensive trials of treatments to determine how effective and safe they are. Working out the harm/good balance is what it is all about. Before making a personal judgement on this I think it is a good idea to look at the evidence - research and statistics - that have been collected by others. If you are not able or willing to do the research yourself, then you really have to take the experts' (whoever you trust) word for it.
I don't deny that economics comes into it too, and that not all researchers are entirely honest and open about their results, but that mostly applies to new drugs within their patent lifetime. I think you can be fairly confident that old established drugs' behaviour and risk is well known.
"Natural" doesn't mean harmless. Curare is natural! A herbal extract is no more natural than many mainstream drugs: both are produced by taking plant material and purifying essences from it. What is different is that the dosage of active ingredient in approved drugs is carefully controlled. With herbals you are taking a much more vaguely known quantity. In the context of cancer, where we are necessarily working close to the edge between good and harm, control is everything.
 Signature Tim Jackson
-Who needs to pay Microsoft? Free Open Source Software- www.mozilla.org FIREFOX Web Browser, THUNDERBIRD Email/News www.openoffice.org Office Suite
alex - 24 Apr 2005 17:30 GMT http://nccam.nih.gov/health/whatiscam/
The is research on going regarding alternative therapy ...therapy which is used with traditional therapy.
WillMore - 24 Apr 2005 22:11 GMT > http://nccam.nih.gov/health/whatiscam/ > > The is research on going regarding alternative therapy ...therapy which is > used with traditional therapy. That is great advice. I combined the traditional with homeopathic. A good homeopathic Dr. should be able to help you get through the chemo by providing natural solutions to ease any chemo side effects ( or to avoid them.). In addition, you may also be able to take your natural immune booster too if it is not counter indicated for your chemo. However, your homeopathic Dr. must be experienced in this method, so finding one that is capable may be the hard part. It is not an either or situation. Let your body have the best available of both types of theraphy so you may enjoy the rest of your life.
Sandy L - 23 Apr 2005 01:49 GMT > Is it allowed ? Try also: http://bca.ns.ca/Support/francais/ubbthreads.php?
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