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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Breast Cancer / June 2005

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Objective measure of chemo "fog"?

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SongOfRuth - 08 Feb 2005 13:33 GMT
When I tell people (friends, families, coworkers) that I have a hard
time remembering stuff I don't think they really get it.  I can
understand that.  They known a Melody who has always done a decent job
of thinking and remembering.  And they've known her a lot longer than
this new Melody that has those problems.

But even more medically aware (presumably) folks don't seem to get it.
I talked to one of the chemo docs about needing a statement from him in
order to go back on LTD.  He didn't seem inclined.  (They took my
frickin' word that I was good to go back full-time but now they won't
take my word that I made a mistake on that?)  The LTD insurance company
has a set amount of time they figure anyone would need to recover from
chemo.

Everyone seems to think that you should recover from chemo in about 3
months and then be good as new - back up to pre-surgery levels of all
functioning.

Yeah. Right.

Objective measures of chemo "fog" (aka "chemobrain") would be great to
prove to all these people that I'm not just lazy, like say when I left
the big bag of trash in front of the garage door because I set it down
to do something else and then forgot about it for the entire rest of
the day.

But that was all mostly a vent.  What I really wish is that there were
some objective ways of showing any progress to myself.  I wish there
were some way "I" could know that the fog is lifting, even if only a
bit.

Any ideas?  How could you tell the "fog" was starting to lift?

Take care,
Melody
Mary Fisher - 08 Feb 2005 14:16 GMT
> When I tell people (friends, families, coworkers) that I have a hard
> time remembering stuff I don't think they really get it.  I can
> understand that.  They known a Melody who has always done a decent job
> of thinking and remembering.  And they've known her a lot longer than
> this new Melody that has those problems.

The attitude of other people to anyone else's symptoms can be very hurtful.

<not bc story>

I worked for a photographer and my hand was shaking when I was focussing the
enlarger or touching-up prints etc. The boss became more and more critical
and said I wasn't concentrating and I should try harder.

When my brain tumour was discovered he was mortified and did all he could to
make up for his hard words. But why couldn't he believe me when I said I
couldn't help it in the first place? Just because he'd never known me
without a steady hand ...

Sigh ...

Mary
Guess Who - 13 Feb 2005 01:13 GMT
Sorry to hear about your difficulties,  you are 3 months post chemo? It does
take awhile for you to feel 100% but I don't know if LTD will cover this.

One test used to establish baseline mental status is the  mini mental test
http://www.lawandpsychiatry.com/html/mini_mental_status_examination.htm

> When I tell people (friends, families, coworkers) that I have a hard
> time remembering stuff I don't think they really get it.  I can
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> Take care,
> Melody
SongOfRuth - 21 Feb 2005 17:43 GMT
Thanks.  I actually ran across that.  It just doesn't really seem to
apply.  I can remember what today is.  I just can't remember if I asked
my husband the question I was thinking or if he answered, that sort of
thing.  Which of course sounds like the kind of thing that prompts
folks to say "that happens to me all the time". Except, of course, when
it happens several times a day and it's work-related stuff I keep
forgetting.  Plphbbt!

Take care,
Melody
Tim Jackson - 22 Feb 2005 10:10 GMT
> Thanks.  I actually ran across that.  It just doesn't really seem to
> apply.  I can remember what today is.  I just can't remember if I asked
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Take care,
> Melody

Even if you can measure these short-term memory problems, it is hard to
attribute them specifically to chemo or other physical causes.  The same
sort of thing can be caused by stress, or maybe ageing, or simple memory
overload - trying to remember too many things at once.

I have said this several times before, so long-established readers
please forgive repetition, but I myself got symptoms similar to what you
describe when my -wife- was undergoing chemotherapy.  I am quite sure
this was due to the stresses and demands of carrying on work, childcare
and nursing simultaneously.  It took a few months for (fairly) normal
function to return afterwards.

Although I think "normal" now is not what normal was five years ago.  I
don't know if that is ageing or increased responsibilities.

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Mary Fisher - 22 Feb 2005 16:06 GMT
"Tim Jackson" <tim@tim-jackson.co.uk> wrote in message
news:421b041d$0$18234$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-

> I have said this several times before, so long-established readers please
> forgive repetition, but I myself got symptoms similar to what you describe
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Although I think "normal" now is not what normal was five years ago.

I don't think it ever was ...

But I don't know what 'normal' is :-) Not sure I want to either ...

Mary

>  I don't know if that is ageing or increased responsibilities.

It's because you're a real person with a real life!

Mary
A. P. Thorsen - 14 Feb 2005 23:25 GMT
> When I tell people (friends, families, coworkers) that I have a hard
> time remembering stuff I don't think they really get it.  I can
> understand that.
. . .
> But even more medically aware (presumably) folks don't seem to get it.
. . .
> Everyone seems to think that you should recover from chemo in about 3
> months and then be good as new - back up to pre-surgery levels of all
> functioning.
. . .
> Objective measures of chemo "fog" (aka "chemobrain") would be great . . .
. . .
> Any ideas?  How could you tell the "fog" was starting to lift?

There was a good article in the Wall Street Journal a few months back
about chemo brain.  It's reprinted at:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/04/06/financia
l1003EDT0050.DTL&type=printable


(That will probably line wrap; if so, you'll have to use cut & paste to
put it in your browser.)

You might want to go to a library & check out the original article -- if
I recall correctly (there's an irony, eh?), I think it had some
brain-scan images illustrating it.

I think Dr. Susan Love's book said you should expect it will take at
least as long to get back to normal after treatment as the time from
your diagnosis until treatment ended.  That is, if you were diagnosed,
had surgery a month later, then started chemo a month post-surgery that
went for 3 months, then had 6 weeks radiation, you'd expect a minimum of
(1 + 1 + 3 + 1.5 = 6.5) months after radiation to get back to normal.

But it took me more like 2 years to get within spitting distance of
normal, and I've heard others say the same thing. (Post-BC
hypothyroidism probably made this slower, in my case, also.)  Moreover,
I've concluded I'm not going to fully recover my cognitive skills.
Don't panic, though:  It does improve significantly!  *Very* significantly.

What helped me progress:  Physical exercise, getting my sleep cycle back
closer to normal (a saga in itself), and (as recommended by friends)
really *exercising* the cognitive skills when feasible.  Examples of
exercising the skills include doing cognitively complex things on your
own (reading difficult material, bringing new organization to family
budgets or investments or the like), playing games that involve memory
or mental manipulation (e.g., Mastermind).  Excellent nutrition and
hydration couldn't hurt, too.

Over time, some coping skills have also developed that I didn't need
previously:  More reliance on lists, routines/rituals for getting things
done or remembering, more single-threading of complex tasks, etc.

As far as how I knew things were improving:  That's a hard one.  I
*know* things are better than during & right after chemo, because I
don't come back later & discover so many boo-boos as I did then, and I
can get difficult things (like my taxes) done more readily.   Sometimes,
though, I wonder whether things are really continuing to improve
gradually, or I'm just getting used to being stupider than before!

It's about 4 years in the past, now, and though it's cope-able at this
point, I definitely don't feel that I'm completely back to my old self
cognitively.  OTOH, that could reflect some cognitive problems that are
really due to chemo-pause and/or the anti-estrogen drugs, rather than
chemo.  Who knows?

For me, chemo brain has been the most troubling BC treatment side
effect.  It kinda hits me where I live, y'know?  However, this feeling
isn't universal:  Some of the women in my RL BC support group feel
similarly, but many/most either weren't troubled by chemo-brain, or it
disappeared fairly quickly for them, as they see it.

Here's hoping you find some strategies that help!  (If so, please share!)

Ann T.
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Mary Fisher - 15 Feb 2005 12:38 GMT
"A. P. Thorsen" <apt77dontsendspam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:curc1g$2lv6

> For me, chemo brain has been the most troubling BC treatment side effect.
> It kinda hits me where I live, y'know?

It doesn't show here, Ann!

Mary
A. P. Thorsen - 16 Feb 2005 21:58 GMT
>> When I tell people (friends, families, coworkers) that I have a hard
>> time remembering stuff I don't think they really get it.  I can
>> understand that.
. . .
>> Any ideas?  How could you tell the "fog" was starting to lift?
. . .

> What helped me progress:  Physical exercise, getting my sleep cycle back
> closer to normal (a saga in itself), and (as recommended by friends)
> really *exercising* the cognitive skills when feasible.  

Slightly tangent to the original question, but I happened to run across
this web article later, FWIW:

http://www.deliverfreedom.com/view_1408215.html

Partly, it's hawking training classes (for which I apologize; I'm not
affiliated with the company in any way).  However, it also includes some
suggestions for regaining memory or cognitive skills.  See especially
the table at the end of the article.

I don't know how well-founded the research basis for any of this is, but
I don't see anything on the list that would potentially be harmful.

Ann T.
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SongOfRuth - 21 Feb 2005 18:02 GMT
> There was a good article in the Wall Street Journal a few months back

> about chemo brain.  It's reprinted at:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/04/06/financia
l1003EDT0050.DTL&type=printable


> (That will probably line wrap; if so, you'll have to use cut & paste to
> put it in your browser.)

It worked fine, thanks!

> You might want to go to a library & check out the original article -- if
> I recall correctly (there's an irony, eh?), I think it had some
> brain-scan images illustrating it.

The online article didn't have any scans.

> I think Dr. Susan Love's book said you should expect it will take at
> least as long to get back to normal after treatment as the time from
> your diagnosis until treatment ended.  That is, if you were diagnosed,
> had surgery a month later, then started chemo a month post-surgery that
> went for 3 months, then had 6 weeks radiation, you'd expect a minimum of
> (1 + 1 + 3 + 1.5 = 6.5) months after radiation to get back to normal.

See, this doesn't quite make sense to me.  Mostly it's the part about
the time of diagnosis.  I don't see where that would have anything to
do with anything.  I can see where how long you had the cancer might (I
ran across something once that indicated that "chemo-brain" can
actually show up Before chemo and in some cases may be related to the
cancer itself) but even that seems thin.  Any fading of my mental
faculties that might have already been underway certainly speeded
Waaaay up after chemo.

> But it took me more like 2 years to get within spitting distance of
> normal, and I've heard others say the same thing. (Post-BC
> hypothyroidism probably made this slower, in my case, also.)  Moreover,
> I've concluded I'm not going to fully recover my cognitive skills.
> Don't panic, though:  It does improve significantly!  *Very* significantly.

That's very good to hear! I'm glad to hear it for you and also cause it
gives me hope. :)

> What helped me progress:  Physical exercise, getting my sleep cycle back
> closer to normal (a saga in itself), and (as recommended by friends)
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> or mental manipulation (e.g., Mastermind).  Excellent nutrition and
> hydration couldn't hurt, too.

What irony that I keep forgetting to exercise and by late evening my
decision making isn't that great so I frequently think that it won't
matter that much if I stay up an hour later.

> Over time, some coping skills have also developed that I didn't need
> previously:  More reliance on lists, routines/rituals for getting things
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> though, I wonder whether things are really continuing to improve
> gradually, or I'm just getting used to being stupider than before!

Right now I'm measuring it by how well I do at doing my paid work.
Well, who knows, maybe this will eventually push me to change careers -
I haven't been that happy in mine for a few years.

> It's about 4 years in the past, now, and though it's cope-able at this
> point, I definitely don't feel that I'm completely back to my old self
> cognitively.  OTOH, that could reflect some cognitive problems that are
> really due to chemo-pause and/or the anti-estrogen drugs, rather than

> chemo.  Who knows?

Well, I'm not on any drugs right now so that's not it.  What is
"chemo-pause"?

> For me, chemo brain has been the most troubling BC treatment side
> effect.  It kinda hits me where I live, y'know?

I know exactly what you mean. :)  If I had known before treatment, it
would have definitely figured into my choice.
A. P. Thorsen - 23 Feb 2005 17:31 GMT
>>I think Dr. Susan Love's book said you should expect it will take at
>>least as long to get back to normal after treatment as the time from
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> the time of diagnosis.  I don't see where that would have anything to
> do with anything.  

As I understood it, the time of diagnosis isn't relevant as such -- it's
just a rule of thumb to give you some rough estimate of recovery time,
more-or-less based on treatment time (logical to assume that lengthier
treatment would mean more long-term effects).

> What is
> "chemo-pause"?

Menopause induced early by chemotherapy.

Ann T.
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SongOfRuth - 24 Feb 2005 18:37 GMT
> >>I think Dr. Susan Love's book said you should expect it will take at
> >>least as long to get back to normal after treatment as the time from
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> more-or-less based on treatment time (logical to assume that lengthier
> treatment would mean more long-term effects).

Okey doke.  Just me being too literal. :)

> > What is
> > "chemo-pause"?
>
> Menopause induced early by chemotherapy.

Ah!  Been there done that. I'm not finding any of the normal
"menopause" symptoms.  Is that usual?  Or am I just lucky?

Take care,
Melody
A. P. Thorsen - 24 Feb 2005 21:50 GMT
>>>What is
>>>"chemo-pause"?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Ah!  Been there done that. I'm not finding any of the normal
> "menopause" symptoms.  Is that usual?  Or am I just lucky?

AFAIK, there's pretty wide variation in whether & which symptoms appear
in particular women at "normal" menopause.  Chemo-pause may behave
similarly.

As an aside:  In the chemo-pause group, because a large fraction of us
were ER+ and therefore taking Tamoxifen or an aromatase inhibitor
(Arimidex, Femara, etc.), it may also be tough to figure out what's a
chemo-pause symptom, and what's a drug side effect . . . .

Glad to hear you haven't had symptoms!

Ann T.
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marilyn@historica.ac - 24 Feb 2005 21:57 GMT
>> Menopause induced early by chemotherapy.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Take care,
>Melody

Hi Melody,
I only had a few light hot flashes during menopause. Three or four
max.  That was the only symptom I had, unless uncontrollable cravings
for chocolate count.

Now that I'm taking Arimidex I'm having hot flashes again but just a
few now and again.

Marilyn
Mary Fisher - 24 Feb 2005 22:07 GMT
> Hi Melody,
> I only had a few light hot flashes during menopause. Three or four
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Now that I'm taking Arimidex I'm having hot flashes again but just a
> few now and again.

You're not being denied chocolate cravings are you?

:-)

Mary

> Marilyn
marilyn@historica.ac - 25 Feb 2005 00:15 GMT
>> Hi Melody,
>> I only had a few light hot flashes during menopause. Three or four
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>>
>> Marilyn

In my chemo fog, I somehow find myself drinking hot chocolate at least
3 times a day and I have to fight the urge to NOT bring large bags of
chocolate chips and Smarties home with the groceries.  (g)  

And why am I a continuous snacker now?  I eat all day long and have
gained 20 pounds in the 3 years since my diagnosis.  I'm thinking of
sewing my mouth shut.  

Marilyn
Mary Fisher - 25 Feb 2005 11:42 GMT
> And why am I a continuous snacker now?  I eat all day long and have
> gained 20 pounds in the 3 years since my diagnosis.  I'm thinking of
> sewing my mouth shut.

Leave a hole for a straw :-)

Mary

> Marilyn
marilyn@historica.ac - 25 Feb 2005 13:40 GMT
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:42:28 -0000, "Mary Fisher"

>> And why am I a continuous snacker now?  I eat all day long and have
>> gained 20 pounds in the 3 years since my diagnosis.  I'm thinking of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Mary

I hear the word straw and my brain thinks: "Chocolate milkshake -
yum!"

Marilyn  
Mary Fisher - 25 Feb 2005 15:10 GMT
> On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:42:28 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I hear the word straw and my brain thinks: "Chocolate milkshake -
> yum!"

LOL!

Sorry. I shouldn't encourage you.

I'm fat too but not because of chocolate. Cheese, wine and butter are my
pitfalls ...

Mary

> Marilyn
marilyn@historica.ac - 25 Feb 2005 19:10 GMT
>I'm fat too but not because of chocolate. Cheese, wine and butter are my
>pitfalls ...

I love butter too, but I don't eat bread so I don't have anything much
to eat it on except veggies. But if I ever find myself on Fear Factor
or The Amazing Race and someone makes me eat a pound of butter I would
be very, very happy to do it. Add some cream cheese, cocoa, vanilla
and peppermint to the butter and I could probably eat 5 pounds of it.
sigh.

Well, I did go to the gym today, anyway.

Marilyn




A. P. Thorsen - 25 Feb 2005 21:17 GMT
>  
>>I'm fat too but not because of chocolate. Cheese, wine and butter are my
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> or The Amazing Race and someone makes me eat a pound of butter I would
> be very, very happy to do it.

From experience:  You might be surprised!  When I was a small child, my
favorite Aunt allowed me to eat as much (homemade, fresh) butter as I
wanted, with a spoon.  My mother later told me I was almost shuddering
by the final bites.  For *years*, decades even, I couldn't stand to eat
butter on things, unless it totally melted in, and even that was iffy!
(I've gotten over it by age 49, pretty much.)

Chocolate, on the other hand . . . it's a basic food group, innit?

> Well, I did go to the gym today, anyway.

Good on you!  I did 10K on a rowing machine today in an ergathon (cancer
fund-raiser). Have to say, I find it quite discouraging how much one has
to work out to burn any measurable amount of calories.  The rowing
machines (a.k.a. ergs) we practice on during the off-season have
monitors that show estimated calories burned.  It ticks me off that I
can dang near kill myself in a workout, and burn off maybe half a
Snickers candy bar, tops.

I try not to think about it, or look at that part of the monitor
display!  Being fitter *definitely* makes me feel better, but it hasn't
gotten me noticeably lighter than before.  (Less fat, more muscle,
judging by how my clothes fit, though.)

Take care,

Ann T.
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Mary Fisher - 25 Feb 2005 23:23 GMT
>>>I'm fat too but not because of chocolate. Cheese, wine and butter are my
>>>pitfalls ...
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> noticeably lighter than before.  (Less fat, more muscle, judging by how my
> clothes fit, though.)

And muscle weighs more than fat :-)

Ann, what do you mean by doing "10K on a rowing machine"? I assume it's
10,000 but 10,000 what?

All this exercise has exhausted me, I'm off to bed!

Mary

Mary
A. P. Thorsen - 28 Feb 2005 14:51 GMT
> Ann, what do you mean by doing "10K on a rowing machine"? I assume it's
> 10,000 but 10,000 what?

10 kilometers.

Ann T.
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Mary Fisher - 28 Feb 2005 15:26 GMT
>> Ann, what do you mean by doing "10K on a rowing machine"? I assume it's
>> 10,000 but 10,000 what?
>
> 10 kilometers.

Oh, thanks.

Mary

> Ann T.
> Remove 'dontsendspam' from address to reply by email
Tim Jackson - 26 Feb 2005 00:30 GMT
> The rowing
> machines (a.k.a. ergs) we practice on during the off-season have
> monitors that show estimated calories burned.  It ticks me off that I
> can dang near kill myself in a workout, and burn off maybe half a
> Snickers candy bar, tops.

Maybe this is because an "erg" is a very small unit of energy.  There
are approximately 42 billion ergs to a (dietary) Calorie.  So there are
an awful lot in a Snickers bar. ;-)

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A. P. Thorsen - 28 Feb 2005 14:53 GMT
>> The rowing machines (a.k.a. ergs) we practice on during the off-season
>> have monitors that show estimated calories burned.  It ticks me off
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> are approximately 42 billion ergs to a (dietary) Calorie.  So there are
> an awful lot in a Snickers bar. ;-)

Excellent <G> . . . maybe we just need to rename the machine.  (. . .
leave it to an engineer . . . !)!

Ann T.
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Mary Fisher - 25 Feb 2005 23:20 GMT
>>I'm fat too but not because of chocolate. Cheese, wine and butter are my
>>pitfalls ...
>
> I love butter too, but I don't eat bread so I don't have anything much
> to eat it on except veggies.

Oh but doesn't it ransform them ... <drool>

> But if I ever find myself on Fear Factor
> or The Amazing Race and someone makes me eat a pound of butter I would
> be very, very happy to do it. Add some cream cheese, cocoa, vanilla
> and peppermint to the butter and I could probably eat 5 pounds of it.
> sigh.

> Well, I did go to the gym today, anyway.

Well, I had a good laugh - does that count?

Mary

> Marilyn
dahabawy7518@duskmail.com - 22 Mar 2005 16:58 GMT
mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk wrote:
> Oh but doesn't it ransform them ... <drool>
> Well, I had a good laugh - does that count?
> Mary

Thanks!

dahabawy7518@duskmail.com
J - 01 Jun 2005 10:34 GMT
> When I tell people (friends, families, coworkers) that I have a hard
> time remembering stuff I don't think they really get it.  I can
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> has a set amount of time they figure anyone would need to recover from
> chemo.

Does he know about this study? I don't know how to find it at the NCI -
maybe Tim or GuessWho could look for it for you,
J
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/medical_notes/4596029.stm
The study features in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute.
It focused on 702 people who had survived following cancer treatment, and
their cancer-free twins.
They argued that comparing cancer survivors with their cancer-free twins
means the increased dysfunction cannot be attributed to the normal aging
process.
They plan a follow-up study comparing survivors who received different
treatments.

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health_medical/story.jsp?story=643088
Researchers have found that cancer survivors are twice as likely to have
difficulty performing certain mental tasks following treatment as those who
have never had cancer.
The latest study, which compared 702 sets of twins, one half of whom had
had cancer, found long-term cancer survivors were at increased risk. The
twins were selected from the Swedish twin registry and set mental tasks to
perform. By studying twins, the researchers eliminated the influence of
genetic and early childhood causes of cancer and cognitive defects.
This is certainly not a reason for cancer patients to panic and refuse
treatment."
 
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