Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Breast Cancer / June 2005
Objective measure of chemo "fog"?
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SongOfRuth - 08 Feb 2005 13:33 GMT When I tell people (friends, families, coworkers) that I have a hard time remembering stuff I don't think they really get it. I can understand that. They known a Melody who has always done a decent job of thinking and remembering. And they've known her a lot longer than this new Melody that has those problems.
But even more medically aware (presumably) folks don't seem to get it. I talked to one of the chemo docs about needing a statement from him in order to go back on LTD. He didn't seem inclined. (They took my frickin' word that I was good to go back full-time but now they won't take my word that I made a mistake on that?) The LTD insurance company has a set amount of time they figure anyone would need to recover from chemo.
Everyone seems to think that you should recover from chemo in about 3 months and then be good as new - back up to pre-surgery levels of all functioning.
Yeah. Right.
Objective measures of chemo "fog" (aka "chemobrain") would be great to prove to all these people that I'm not just lazy, like say when I left the big bag of trash in front of the garage door because I set it down to do something else and then forgot about it for the entire rest of the day.
But that was all mostly a vent. What I really wish is that there were some objective ways of showing any progress to myself. I wish there were some way "I" could know that the fog is lifting, even if only a bit.
Any ideas? How could you tell the "fog" was starting to lift?
Take care, Melody
Mary Fisher - 08 Feb 2005 14:16 GMT > When I tell people (friends, families, coworkers) that I have a hard > time remembering stuff I don't think they really get it. I can > understand that. They known a Melody who has always done a decent job > of thinking and remembering. And they've known her a lot longer than > this new Melody that has those problems. The attitude of other people to anyone else's symptoms can be very hurtful.
<not bc story>
I worked for a photographer and my hand was shaking when I was focussing the enlarger or touching-up prints etc. The boss became more and more critical and said I wasn't concentrating and I should try harder.
When my brain tumour was discovered he was mortified and did all he could to make up for his hard words. But why couldn't he believe me when I said I couldn't help it in the first place? Just because he'd never known me without a steady hand ...
Sigh ...
Mary
Guess Who - 13 Feb 2005 01:13 GMT Sorry to hear about your difficulties, you are 3 months post chemo? It does take awhile for you to feel 100% but I don't know if LTD will cover this.
One test used to establish baseline mental status is the mini mental test http://www.lawandpsychiatry.com/html/mini_mental_status_examination.htm
> When I tell people (friends, families, coworkers) that I have a hard > time remembering stuff I don't think they really get it. I can [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Take care, > Melody SongOfRuth - 21 Feb 2005 17:43 GMT Thanks. I actually ran across that. It just doesn't really seem to apply. I can remember what today is. I just can't remember if I asked my husband the question I was thinking or if he answered, that sort of thing. Which of course sounds like the kind of thing that prompts folks to say "that happens to me all the time". Except, of course, when it happens several times a day and it's work-related stuff I keep forgetting. Plphbbt!
Take care, Melody
Tim Jackson - 22 Feb 2005 10:10 GMT > Thanks. I actually ran across that. It just doesn't really seem to > apply. I can remember what today is. I just can't remember if I asked [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Take care, > Melody Even if you can measure these short-term memory problems, it is hard to attribute them specifically to chemo or other physical causes. The same sort of thing can be caused by stress, or maybe ageing, or simple memory overload - trying to remember too many things at once.
I have said this several times before, so long-established readers please forgive repetition, but I myself got symptoms similar to what you describe when my -wife- was undergoing chemotherapy. I am quite sure this was due to the stresses and demands of carrying on work, childcare and nursing simultaneously. It took a few months for (fairly) normal function to return afterwards.
Although I think "normal" now is not what normal was five years ago. I don't know if that is ageing or increased responsibilities.
 Signature Tim Jackson
-Who needs to pay Microsoft? Free Open Source Software- www.mozilla.org FIREFOX Web Browser, THUNDERBIRD Email/News www.openoffice.org Office Suite
Mary Fisher - 22 Feb 2005 16:06 GMT "Tim Jackson" <tim@tim-jackson.co.uk> wrote in message news:421b041d$0$18234$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-
> I have said this several times before, so long-established readers please > forgive repetition, but I myself got symptoms similar to what you describe [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Although I think "normal" now is not what normal was five years ago. I don't think it ever was ...
But I don't know what 'normal' is :-) Not sure I want to either ...
Mary
> I don't know if that is ageing or increased responsibilities. It's because you're a real person with a real life!
Mary
A. P. Thorsen - 14 Feb 2005 23:25 GMT > When I tell people (friends, families, coworkers) that I have a hard > time remembering stuff I don't think they really get it. I can > understand that. . . .
> But even more medically aware (presumably) folks don't seem to get it. . . .
> Everyone seems to think that you should recover from chemo in about 3 > months and then be good as new - back up to pre-surgery levels of all > functioning. . . .
> Objective measures of chemo "fog" (aka "chemobrain") would be great . . . . . .
> Any ideas? How could you tell the "fog" was starting to lift? There was a good article in the Wall Street Journal a few months back about chemo brain. It's reprinted at:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/04/06/financia l1003EDT0050.DTL&type=printable
(That will probably line wrap; if so, you'll have to use cut & paste to put it in your browser.)
You might want to go to a library & check out the original article -- if I recall correctly (there's an irony, eh?), I think it had some brain-scan images illustrating it.
I think Dr. Susan Love's book said you should expect it will take at least as long to get back to normal after treatment as the time from your diagnosis until treatment ended. That is, if you were diagnosed, had surgery a month later, then started chemo a month post-surgery that went for 3 months, then had 6 weeks radiation, you'd expect a minimum of (1 + 1 + 3 + 1.5 = 6.5) months after radiation to get back to normal.
But it took me more like 2 years to get within spitting distance of normal, and I've heard others say the same thing. (Post-BC hypothyroidism probably made this slower, in my case, also.) Moreover, I've concluded I'm not going to fully recover my cognitive skills. Don't panic, though: It does improve significantly! *Very* significantly.
What helped me progress: Physical exercise, getting my sleep cycle back closer to normal (a saga in itself), and (as recommended by friends) really *exercising* the cognitive skills when feasible. Examples of exercising the skills include doing cognitively complex things on your own (reading difficult material, bringing new organization to family budgets or investments or the like), playing games that involve memory or mental manipulation (e.g., Mastermind). Excellent nutrition and hydration couldn't hurt, too.
Over time, some coping skills have also developed that I didn't need previously: More reliance on lists, routines/rituals for getting things done or remembering, more single-threading of complex tasks, etc.
As far as how I knew things were improving: That's a hard one. I *know* things are better than during & right after chemo, because I don't come back later & discover so many boo-boos as I did then, and I can get difficult things (like my taxes) done more readily. Sometimes, though, I wonder whether things are really continuing to improve gradually, or I'm just getting used to being stupider than before!
It's about 4 years in the past, now, and though it's cope-able at this point, I definitely don't feel that I'm completely back to my old self cognitively. OTOH, that could reflect some cognitive problems that are really due to chemo-pause and/or the anti-estrogen drugs, rather than chemo. Who knows?
For me, chemo brain has been the most troubling BC treatment side effect. It kinda hits me where I live, y'know? However, this feeling isn't universal: Some of the women in my RL BC support group feel similarly, but many/most either weren't troubled by chemo-brain, or it disappeared fairly quickly for them, as they see it.
Here's hoping you find some strategies that help! (If so, please share!)
Ann T. Remove 'dontsendspam' from address to reply by email
Mary Fisher - 15 Feb 2005 12:38 GMT "A. P. Thorsen" <apt77dontsendspam@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:curc1g$2lv6
> For me, chemo brain has been the most troubling BC treatment side effect. > It kinda hits me where I live, y'know? It doesn't show here, Ann!
Mary
A. P. Thorsen - 16 Feb 2005 21:58 GMT >> When I tell people (friends, families, coworkers) that I have a hard >> time remembering stuff I don't think they really get it. I can >> understand that. . . .
>> Any ideas? How could you tell the "fog" was starting to lift? . . .
> What helped me progress: Physical exercise, getting my sleep cycle back > closer to normal (a saga in itself), and (as recommended by friends) > really *exercising* the cognitive skills when feasible. Slightly tangent to the original question, but I happened to run across this web article later, FWIW:
http://www.deliverfreedom.com/view_1408215.html
Partly, it's hawking training classes (for which I apologize; I'm not affiliated with the company in any way). However, it also includes some suggestions for regaining memory or cognitive skills. See especially the table at the end of the article.
I don't know how well-founded the research basis for any of this is, but I don't see anything on the list that would potentially be harmful.
Ann T. Remove 'dontsendspam' from address to reply by email
SongOfRuth - 21 Feb 2005 18:02 GMT > There was a good article in the Wall Street Journal a few months back
> about chemo brain. It's reprinted at: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/04/06/financia l1003EDT0050.DTL&type=printable
> (That will probably line wrap; if so, you'll have to use cut & paste to > put it in your browser.) It worked fine, thanks!
> You might want to go to a library & check out the original article -- if > I recall correctly (there's an irony, eh?), I think it had some > brain-scan images illustrating it. The online article didn't have any scans.
> I think Dr. Susan Love's book said you should expect it will take at > least as long to get back to normal after treatment as the time from > your diagnosis until treatment ended. That is, if you were diagnosed, > had surgery a month later, then started chemo a month post-surgery that > went for 3 months, then had 6 weeks radiation, you'd expect a minimum of > (1 + 1 + 3 + 1.5 = 6.5) months after radiation to get back to normal. See, this doesn't quite make sense to me. Mostly it's the part about the time of diagnosis. I don't see where that would have anything to do with anything. I can see where how long you had the cancer might (I ran across something once that indicated that "chemo-brain" can actually show up Before chemo and in some cases may be related to the cancer itself) but even that seems thin. Any fading of my mental faculties that might have already been underway certainly speeded Waaaay up after chemo.
> But it took me more like 2 years to get within spitting distance of > normal, and I've heard others say the same thing. (Post-BC > hypothyroidism probably made this slower, in my case, also.) Moreover, > I've concluded I'm not going to fully recover my cognitive skills. > Don't panic, though: It does improve significantly! *Very* significantly. That's very good to hear! I'm glad to hear it for you and also cause it gives me hope. :)
> What helped me progress: Physical exercise, getting my sleep cycle back > closer to normal (a saga in itself), and (as recommended by friends) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > or mental manipulation (e.g., Mastermind). Excellent nutrition and > hydration couldn't hurt, too. What irony that I keep forgetting to exercise and by late evening my decision making isn't that great so I frequently think that it won't matter that much if I stay up an hour later.
> Over time, some coping skills have also developed that I didn't need > previously: More reliance on lists, routines/rituals for getting things [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > though, I wonder whether things are really continuing to improve > gradually, or I'm just getting used to being stupider than before! Right now I'm measuring it by how well I do at doing my paid work. Well, who knows, maybe this will eventually push me to change careers - I haven't been that happy in mine for a few years.
> It's about 4 years in the past, now, and though it's cope-able at this > point, I definitely don't feel that I'm completely back to my old self > cognitively. OTOH, that could reflect some cognitive problems that are > really due to chemo-pause and/or the anti-estrogen drugs, rather than
> chemo. Who knows? Well, I'm not on any drugs right now so that's not it. What is "chemo-pause"?
> For me, chemo brain has been the most troubling BC treatment side > effect. It kinda hits me where I live, y'know? I know exactly what you mean. :) If I had known before treatment, it would have definitely figured into my choice.
A. P. Thorsen - 23 Feb 2005 17:31 GMT >>I think Dr. Susan Love's book said you should expect it will take at >>least as long to get back to normal after treatment as the time from [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > the time of diagnosis. I don't see where that would have anything to > do with anything. As I understood it, the time of diagnosis isn't relevant as such -- it's just a rule of thumb to give you some rough estimate of recovery time, more-or-less based on treatment time (logical to assume that lengthier treatment would mean more long-term effects).
> What is > "chemo-pause"? Menopause induced early by chemotherapy.
Ann T. Remove 'dontsendspam' from address to reply by email
SongOfRuth - 24 Feb 2005 18:37 GMT > >>I think Dr. Susan Love's book said you should expect it will take at > >>least as long to get back to normal after treatment as the time from [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > more-or-less based on treatment time (logical to assume that lengthier > treatment would mean more long-term effects). Okey doke. Just me being too literal. :)
> > What is > > "chemo-pause"? > > Menopause induced early by chemotherapy. Ah! Been there done that. I'm not finding any of the normal "menopause" symptoms. Is that usual? Or am I just lucky?
Take care, Melody
A. P. Thorsen - 24 Feb 2005 21:50 GMT >>>What is >>>"chemo-pause"? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Ah! Been there done that. I'm not finding any of the normal > "menopause" symptoms. Is that usual? Or am I just lucky? AFAIK, there's pretty wide variation in whether & which symptoms appear in particular women at "normal" menopause. Chemo-pause may behave similarly.
As an aside: In the chemo-pause group, because a large fraction of us were ER+ and therefore taking Tamoxifen or an aromatase inhibitor (Arimidex, Femara, etc.), it may also be tough to figure out what's a chemo-pause symptom, and what's a drug side effect . . . .
Glad to hear you haven't had symptoms!
Ann T. Remove 'dontsendspam' from address to reply by email
marilyn@historica.ac - 24 Feb 2005 21:57 GMT >> Menopause induced early by chemotherapy. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Take care, >Melody Hi Melody, I only had a few light hot flashes during menopause. Three or four max. That was the only symptom I had, unless uncontrollable cravings for chocolate count.
Now that I'm taking Arimidex I'm having hot flashes again but just a few now and again.
Marilyn
Mary Fisher - 24 Feb 2005 22:07 GMT > Hi Melody, > I only had a few light hot flashes during menopause. Three or four [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Now that I'm taking Arimidex I'm having hot flashes again but just a > few now and again. You're not being denied chocolate cravings are you?
:-) Mary
> Marilyn marilyn@historica.ac - 25 Feb 2005 00:15 GMT >> Hi Melody, >> I only had a few light hot flashes during menopause. Three or four [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> >> Marilyn In my chemo fog, I somehow find myself drinking hot chocolate at least 3 times a day and I have to fight the urge to NOT bring large bags of chocolate chips and Smarties home with the groceries. (g)
And why am I a continuous snacker now? I eat all day long and have gained 20 pounds in the 3 years since my diagnosis. I'm thinking of sewing my mouth shut.
Marilyn
Mary Fisher - 25 Feb 2005 11:42 GMT > And why am I a continuous snacker now? I eat all day long and have > gained 20 pounds in the 3 years since my diagnosis. I'm thinking of > sewing my mouth shut. Leave a hole for a straw :-)
Mary
> Marilyn marilyn@historica.ac - 25 Feb 2005 13:40 GMT On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:42:28 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
>> And why am I a continuous snacker now? I eat all day long and have >> gained 20 pounds in the 3 years since my diagnosis. I'm thinking of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Mary I hear the word straw and my brain thinks: "Chocolate milkshake - yum!"
Marilyn
Mary Fisher - 25 Feb 2005 15:10 GMT > On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:42:28 -0000, "Mary Fisher" >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I hear the word straw and my brain thinks: "Chocolate milkshake - > yum!" LOL!
Sorry. I shouldn't encourage you.
I'm fat too but not because of chocolate. Cheese, wine and butter are my pitfalls ...
Mary
> Marilyn marilyn@historica.ac - 25 Feb 2005 19:10 GMT >I'm fat too but not because of chocolate. Cheese, wine and butter are my >pitfalls ... I love butter too, but I don't eat bread so I don't have anything much to eat it on except veggies. But if I ever find myself on Fear Factor or The Amazing Race and someone makes me eat a pound of butter I would be very, very happy to do it. Add some cream cheese, cocoa, vanilla and peppermint to the butter and I could probably eat 5 pounds of it. sigh.
Well, I did go to the gym today, anyway.
Marilyn
A. P. Thorsen - 25 Feb 2005 21:17 GMT > >>I'm fat too but not because of chocolate. Cheese, wine and butter are my [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > or The Amazing Race and someone makes me eat a pound of butter I would > be very, very happy to do it. From experience: You might be surprised! When I was a small child, my favorite Aunt allowed me to eat as much (homemade, fresh) butter as I wanted, with a spoon. My mother later told me I was almost shuddering by the final bites. For *years*, decades even, I couldn't stand to eat butter on things, unless it totally melted in, and even that was iffy! (I've gotten over it by age 49, pretty much.)
Chocolate, on the other hand . . . it's a basic food group, innit?
> Well, I did go to the gym today, anyway. Good on you! I did 10K on a rowing machine today in an ergathon (cancer fund-raiser). Have to say, I find it quite discouraging how much one has to work out to burn any measurable amount of calories. The rowing machines (a.k.a. ergs) we practice on during the off-season have monitors that show estimated calories burned. It ticks me off that I can dang near kill myself in a workout, and burn off maybe half a Snickers candy bar, tops.
I try not to think about it, or look at that part of the monitor display! Being fitter *definitely* makes me feel better, but it hasn't gotten me noticeably lighter than before. (Less fat, more muscle, judging by how my clothes fit, though.)
Take care,
Ann T. Remove 'dontsendspam' from address to reply by email
Mary Fisher - 25 Feb 2005 23:23 GMT >>>I'm fat too but not because of chocolate. Cheese, wine and butter are my >>>pitfalls ... [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > noticeably lighter than before. (Less fat, more muscle, judging by how my > clothes fit, though.) And muscle weighs more than fat :-)
Ann, what do you mean by doing "10K on a rowing machine"? I assume it's 10,000 but 10,000 what?
All this exercise has exhausted me, I'm off to bed!
Mary
Mary
A. P. Thorsen - 28 Feb 2005 14:51 GMT > Ann, what do you mean by doing "10K on a rowing machine"? I assume it's > 10,000 but 10,000 what? 10 kilometers.
Ann T. Remove 'dontsendspam' from address to reply by email
Mary Fisher - 28 Feb 2005 15:26 GMT >> Ann, what do you mean by doing "10K on a rowing machine"? I assume it's >> 10,000 but 10,000 what? > > 10 kilometers. Oh, thanks.
Mary
> Ann T. > Remove 'dontsendspam' from address to reply by email Tim Jackson - 26 Feb 2005 00:30 GMT > The rowing > machines (a.k.a. ergs) we practice on during the off-season have > monitors that show estimated calories burned. It ticks me off that I > can dang near kill myself in a workout, and burn off maybe half a > Snickers candy bar, tops. Maybe this is because an "erg" is a very small unit of energy. There are approximately 42 billion ergs to a (dietary) Calorie. So there are an awful lot in a Snickers bar. ;-)
 Signature Tim Jackson
-Who needs to pay Microsoft? Free Open Source Software- www.mozilla.org FIREFOX Web Browser, THUNDERBIRD Email/News www.openoffice.org Office Suite
A. P. Thorsen - 28 Feb 2005 14:53 GMT >> The rowing machines (a.k.a. ergs) we practice on during the off-season >> have monitors that show estimated calories burned. It ticks me off [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > are approximately 42 billion ergs to a (dietary) Calorie. So there are > an awful lot in a Snickers bar. ;-) Excellent <G> . . . maybe we just need to rename the machine. (. . . leave it to an engineer . . . !)!
Ann T. Remove 'dontsendspam' from address to reply by email
Mary Fisher - 25 Feb 2005 23:20 GMT >>I'm fat too but not because of chocolate. Cheese, wine and butter are my >>pitfalls ... > > I love butter too, but I don't eat bread so I don't have anything much > to eat it on except veggies. Oh but doesn't it ransform them ... <drool>
> But if I ever find myself on Fear Factor > or The Amazing Race and someone makes me eat a pound of butter I would > be very, very happy to do it. Add some cream cheese, cocoa, vanilla > and peppermint to the butter and I could probably eat 5 pounds of it. > sigh.
> Well, I did go to the gym today, anyway. Well, I had a good laugh - does that count?
Mary
> Marilyn dahabawy7518@duskmail.com - 22 Mar 2005 16:58 GMT mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk wrote:
> Oh but doesn't it ransform them ... <drool> > Well, I had a good laugh - does that count? > Mary Thanks!
dahabawy7518@duskmail.com
J - 01 Jun 2005 10:34 GMT > When I tell people (friends, families, coworkers) that I have a hard > time remembering stuff I don't think they really get it. I can [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > has a set amount of time they figure anyone would need to recover from > chemo. Does he know about this study? I don't know how to find it at the NCI - maybe Tim or GuessWho could look for it for you, J http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/medical_notes/4596029.stm The study features in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute. It focused on 702 people who had survived following cancer treatment, and their cancer-free twins. They argued that comparing cancer survivors with their cancer-free twins means the increased dysfunction cannot be attributed to the normal aging process. They plan a follow-up study comparing survivors who received different treatments.
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health_medical/story.jsp?story=643088 Researchers have found that cancer survivors are twice as likely to have difficulty performing certain mental tasks following treatment as those who have never had cancer. The latest study, which compared 702 sets of twins, one half of whom had had cancer, found long-term cancer survivors were at increased risk. The twins were selected from the Swedish twin registry and set mental tasks to perform. By studying twins, the researchers eliminated the influence of genetic and early childhood causes of cancer and cognitive defects. This is certainly not a reason for cancer patients to panic and refuse treatment."
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