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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Breast Cancer / January 2005

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Is this adequate treatment?

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richreilly@hotmail.com - 22 Jan 2005 22:18 GMT
My mom is recovering from a simple mastectomy. She is 67,
T2,N0(SenLymBiop), Grade 3, er+ and her-2+. She had attachment to pec
major but they say that it didn't get to intercostal muscles.
Current local offerings range from just chest wall rads & Arimidex to
adding AC at the head. I am concerned about the safety of AC since it
seems many feel epirubicin is safer.The facility she has used so
far(Wisconsin) doesn't ever use epirubicin. These tools seem like they
may not be enough. I have seen information regarding M.D. Anderson's
off protocol treatment using herceptin/chemo in the adjuvant setting
and am investigating whether my mother might qualify. I am also
wondering whether they have come up with a way to test for PTEN levels
which seem to determine responsiveness to Herceptin. Seems like every
advance in treating her-2 comes out of M.D. Anderson.
I'm so afraid at this point.
Tim Jackson - 22 Jan 2005 22:40 GMT
> My mom is recovering from a simple mastectomy. She is 67,
> T2,N0(SenLymBiop), Grade 3, er+ and her-2+. She had attachment to pec
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> advance in treating her-2 comes out of M.D. Anderson.
> I'm so afraid at this point.

Her chances of recovering fully and living out her normal lifespan
without further occurrences are quite good given the standard treatment.
 Many people have had A/C chemotherapy, the vast majority without long
term side effects.  Epirubicin may have some advantages but we aren't
looking at a big difference.

Off-protocol treatments are off protocol because their risk/benefit
balance is not proven.  Herceptin is very good at killing some cancers,
but it also can have serious side effects, so is not all benefit.  For
someone who at this time does not have detectable cancer, one could be
applying risky treatment to a perfectly healthy woman.

So on the whole, yes it is adequate treatment.  There are lots of
experimental things one could try, but mostly they probably won't make
much difference.

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Guess Who - 22 Jan 2005 23:20 GMT
> My mom is recovering from a simple mastectomy. She is 67,
> T2,N0(SenLymBiop), Grade 3, er+ and her-2+. She had attachment to pec
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> advance in treating her-2 comes out of M.D. Anderson.
> I'm so afraid at this point.

Tim is right, that your mother's prognosis is good with traditional therapy
only.
Herceptin is only given for metastatic disease which thankfully your mother
doesn't have
http://www.herceptin.com/herceptin/
Herceptin has it's one risks.
Alex
richreilly@hotmail.com - 24 Jan 2005 03:53 GMT
Even with the Her-2+? If anyone can comment, I'm at 608-215-3449
Rich
richreilly@hotmail.com - 24 Jan 2005 04:09 GMT
Sorry..so by traditional therapy, you mean with AC? They have been
hesitant on the AC thus far but are going to check her heart this Wed.
My mom was asked "what do think of chemo?" without laying out any
benefits to her so she said what she has seen of it" doesn't look
good". They took that to mean she wasn't interested in chemo period.
Granted, my mom isn't in the best of health(moderate emphesema) so that
probably played into it at some level. But I think the better approach
might have been to suggest any medical benefit, detail the risks, THEN
ask what she thinks of it. I guess my concern is that what I have read
suggests  her-2+/Er+ can cause problems for hormonal therapy but often
patients respond well to AC. The doc seems to have a lot of faith in
the endocrine side of things but I don't know why. Can a high level of
Er positivity override the the conflict her-2 poses?
Tim Jackson - 24 Jan 2005 09:35 GMT
> Sorry..so by traditional therapy, you mean with AC? They have been
> hesitant on the AC thus far but are going to check her heart this Wed.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> the endocrine side of things but I don't know why. Can a high level of
> Er positivity override the the conflict her-2 poses?

I think you are obsessing over trivia here.  HER2+ doesn't mean that
hormone therapy doesn't work, it just means that the probability of
recurrence is a bit higher.  And there is not as yet conclusive evidence
that there is anything that can be done about it.  Unless we can find a
reliable way of determining which patients would relapse without
Herceptin, it's not really likely that giving it to every early stage
patient who tests HER2+ is going to be sensible.

Here in the UK as far as I know they don't even test most early-stage
patients for HER2, there is no point because the result isn't going to
change the prescription.

I can understand if they are equivocal about chemo if she has emphysema,
for two reasons.  One is that her ability to cope with the side effects
is reduced.  The other is that her life expectancy is rather shorter
than a healthy person, so the potential gain in (quality) life
expectancy from chemo is reduced.

I suspect that they weren't taking her uninformed opinion about chemo as
an overriding decision, but were checking whether she had any strong
feelings about it.

I would also point out that any heart condition that is a problem for
A/C would probably also contra-indicate Herceptin.

Hormone therapy is generally reckoned to halve the risk of recurrence,
and it is pretty safe.  Hence the doctors' faith in it.  Not that it is
guaranteed to keep her alive (no-one can do that while she still has to
cross the road occasionally), or even guaranteed to prevent another
cancer,  but that it may well be her best bet for living as long as she
can. There simply -are- no guarantees.

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richreilly@hotmail.com - 25 Jan 2005 02:16 GMT
This is what I was reacting to:
http://www.bcrfcure.org/rese_meet_giovanni.html
eveline - 25 Jan 2005 03:14 GMT
I am sure the doctor will have a more educated view here, but Herceptin was
not approved here at Ohio State research center for Her2neu that has not
spread or metastasized.  ---at least last year when my daughter was
evaluated.

My research indicated it was extremely helpful for this type cancer, but has
more dangers for the patient.  I believe it can cause a rapid reaction -
almost anaphalactic in nature that can cause death( rarely.)

It also can cause the heart to deteriorate causing congestive failure to
happen at a later date.  The patients have to be followed and monitored.
If there is more updated information now, the doctor might have that.

You wrote:
> This is what I was reacting to:
> http://www.bcrfcure.org/rese_meet_giovanni.html
Eva - 25 Jan 2005 03:56 GMT
> This is what I was reacting to:
> http://www.bcrfcure.org/rese_meet_giovanni.html
----------
Interesting!  The page contains this quote:
"Yale scientists have found that patients whose breast cancer contains
activated HER2 are more likely to have progression of the cancer during
treatment with Taxol than those without activated HER2."

My tumor, which was *very* fast-growing, was strongly HER2 positive (HER2
+3).  I didn't get Taxol, I got Taxotere.  During the AC phase of chemo, my
tumor shrank to about half its original size of 8 cm.  During the T phase,
it shrank down to *nothing*.  The pathology report after my mastectomy
showed no active cancer.

(The Taxotere caused almost intolerable side effects, it damn near killed
me, and more than 2 months after my last treatment I *still* have swollen
painful legs and peripheral neuropathy and my finger and toenails, what's
left of them, are absolutely disgusting and useless.  But despite my HER2
status, it most definitely did work.)

I'm getting Herceptin now, as adjuvant treatment.  I'll be getting it every
3 weeks for a year.  This isn't a clinical trial as far as I know, but my
oncologist offered it to me and I think if I don't go into congestive heart
failure it should be a good thing.  I'm also supposed to be taking Arimidex,
but I haven't filled the prescription yet.  I don't need to be taking
something that increases fractures when there's all this snow and ice on the
ground!
Eva
eveline - 25 Jan 2005 04:13 GMT
> > This is what I was reacting to:
> > http://www.bcrfcure.org/rese_meet_giovanni.html
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> activated HER2 are more likely to have progression of the cancer during
> treatment with Taxol than those without activated HER2."a
Answer............I noticed that too Eva.
> My tumor, which was *very* fast-growing, was strongly HER2 positive (HER2
> +3).  I didn't get Taxol, I got Taxotere.  During the AC phase of chemo, my
> tumor shrank to about half its original size of 8 cm.  During the T phase,
> it shrank down to *nothing*.  The pathology report after my mastectomy
> showed no active cancer.
Answer.................. 8cm is good size. That is wonderful!!

> (The Taxotere caused almost intolerable side effects, it damn near killed
> me, and more than 2 months after my last treatment I *still* have swollen
> painful legs and peripheral neuropathy and my finger and toenails, what's
> left of them, are absolutely disgusting and useless.  But despite my HER2
> status, it most definitely did work.)
Answer.............I am so glad for you!

> I'm getting Herceptin now, as adjuvant treatment.  I'll be getting it every
> 3 weeks for a year.  This isn't a clinical trial as far as I know, but my
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Eva
> .............. questions,  Eva.  Where do you live?  What type of
treatment center did you go to?
I am hoping my daughter's does not come back, but I want to keep informed in
able to help her.

eveline
eveline - 25 Jan 2005 23:13 GMT
Eva.
I typed a response to your private message, and then realized your email
address was an improvised one and you would not get my Thank You.  I am a
reliable, honest registered nurse and would never misuse anyone's address.
My spouse was in a clinical trial for an asthma medication.  He had to sign
a release and after the trial was over he received this medication free as
during the trial.
So your herceptin is probably not a clinical trial if you have not been
appropriately advised.
I just use my regular email address everywhere.  I don't go to any extra
trouble disguising it.  I have spam blocker, spyware blocker, and a good
virus system.  If a few get through then I block the individuals who misuse
my address.
Again thank you, and my very best wishes for your continuing recovery.

eveline
Eva - 26 Jan 2005 01:32 GMT
> Eva.
> I typed a response to your private message, and then realized your email
> address was an improvised one and you would not get my Thank You.
----------
You're welcome.....that *was* my real address, I just block it with "NO NO"
for the newsgroup!

Eva
Tim Jackson - 26 Jan 2005 13:50 GMT
> I just use my regular email address everywhere.  I don't go to any extra
> trouble disguising it.  I have spam blocker, spyware blocker, and a good
> virus system.  If a few get through then I block the individuals who misuse
> my address.

I have been using the same real address on Usenet since 1998, and have
accumulated spammers to the tune of about 100 a day.  The 'from'
addresses are almost always faked and randomised.  The Mozilla
Thunderbird browser does a good job of getting rid of most of them, and
of blocking unwanted attachments.  I may however occasionally miss real
mails from individuals not in my address book (which I suppose makes
publishing my real address rather pointless).

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Mary Fisher - 27 Jan 2005 22:13 GMT
"Tim Jackson" <tim@tim-jackson.co.uk> wrote in message
news:41f79f8d$0$26951$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-

> I have been using the same real address on Usenet since 1998, and have
> accumulated spammers to the tune of about 100 a day.

That's not fair! I don't get as many as that - only about fifty!

:-)

Mary
richreilly@hotmail.com - 28 Jan 2005 02:52 GMT
http://her2support.org/forums/
Tim Jackson - 25 Jan 2005 10:37 GMT
> This is what I was reacting to:
> http://www.bcrfcure.org/rese_meet_giovanni.html

As far as I know the effect described here, of HER2+, ER+ restricting
the effects of hormone therapy, only apply to Tamoxifen, and not to the
aromatase inhibitors.  These are increasingly being recommended as an
alternative for post-menopausal women.

I think the source of this concern is such things as the GUN study,
which showed that Tamoxifen had little influence on outcome for these
patients.  That study also showed that outcome was unaffected by HER
status if CMF chemotherapy was also used.  CMF may be better tolerated
than AC.

Do bear in mind that the biggest single contributor to her chances of
survival is doing nothing.  Meaning that surgery alone gives her quite a
good chance of escaping the disease.  Any further treatment is
attempting to improve this chance further, and must be carefully weighed
against the added risk and loss of life quality introduced by the treatment

Do remember in considering Herceptin that as well as carrying a risk of
serious side effects, while it can be very effective in some cases, it
is also quite often ineffective despite HER2 overexpression.

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Tim Jackson

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