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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Asthma / December 2004

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fluticasone steroid inhaler systemic effects?

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gumbo - 19 Dec 2004 10:17 GMT
I have been taking inhaled fluticasone (flovent) 1000 mcg per day
(500 mcg am, 500 mcg pm) for the last couple of years.  Over the last few
months I have noticed that if I miss one or more doses I experience severe
exhaustion, espcially if I miss say 2 or 3 consecutive doses.  The exhaustion
is more pronounced if I miss the morning dose than the evening dose (possibly
because I'm usually asleep after the evening dose!).  The main symptom is
overwhelming tiredness forcing me to go and lie down during the day, or
sleeping 12 hours overnight and then feeling absolutely terrible and exhausted
on waking.  No amount of sleep seems to resolve the exhaustion.  If however
I restore the fluticasone dose the exhaustion largely goes away and
I can function more or less normally.  I have found by repeated
experiment that the exhaustion symptoms are consistently reproducible by
missing 1 or more fluticasone doeses, and go away within a day or so of
re-introducing the full fluticasone dose.

My specialist recently tried substituting 50% of the fluticasone dose with qvar
beclamethasone (a small particle form of beclamethasone).  This was
unrelated to the fatigue symptoms, the aim was to try to improve the
asthma control which is not fully controlled by the flovent.  The amount
of beclamethasone substituted was calculated by the specialist to be
equivalent to half of the fluticasone done, so the the combined effect
of the two drugs should be the same as the original 1000 mcg/day flovent.

On taking the qvar and reduced flovent doses I found I got similar exhaustion
to missing the fluticasone dose, so the qvar doesn't seem to have the same
systemic effect as the fluticasone.  After 1-2 days it became apparant
that I would have to switch back to the full 500 mcg fluticasone dose
in the morning to avoid the exhaustion.

I have conducted an internet search and have found there have been a few
published studies showing adrenal suppression from inhaled fluticasone, but
these are mainly results obtained from children, whereas I am an adult male.

My specialist has told me that systemic effects for inhaled steroids are
very rare and unlikely since the dose is small and absorbtion from the
lungs into the body is supposedly minimal.  The patient information
leaflet that comes with the fluticasone inhaler also claims that
systemic effects from use of the inhaler are "very rare".
(Of course, I recognise that "very rare" does not mean "never").

My questions for the group are:-

(1) Are the exhaustion symptoms I have described consistent with some
degree of adrenal suppression resulting from use of the fluticasone
inhaler?

(2) Is there any other mechanism other than adrenal suppression that
would be consistent with the apparant correlation between reducing
the fluticasone dose and experiencing exhaustion symptoms?

(3) Is flovent adrenal suppression a known issue?  Have other people
experienced similar reactions?

(4) Is there a reliable test for adrenal suppression that I could ask
my specialist to carry out?

(5) Does fluticasone (flovent) have a worse profile for systemic effects
and adrenal suppression in particular than beclamethasone or budenoside?

I'll be very grateful for any information received.

Sorry for the long post!

-- gumbo
jackmallory@webtv.net - 19 Dec 2004 15:44 GMT
Surely fluticasone is a better corticosteroid than beclomethazone.

If you want to continue to screw around with  your steroids, which seem
to be doing a good job for you, you might try budesonide (Pulmicort)
which is what I've been taking, and very happily, for some years.

The only reason I've never tried Flovent is that the Pulmicort has been
so good.  I had tried all the others (Asmacort, Aerobid, Beclovent)
available in the USA, and never did any of 'em work so well.

Someday mometasone will be available, when Schering-Plough gets up off
their butts, gets it approved and makes it available to us mere mortals.

Til then we'll have to make do.

Gumbo have you tried tiotropium (Spiriva)?  Even if you don't have COPD,
but do use albuterol, you might try it.  Many of us are  r e a l  happy
with it.---Jack
gumbo - 20 Dec 2004 19:29 GMT
> Surely fluticasone is a better corticosteroid than beclomethazone.
>
> If you want to continue to screw around with  your steroids, which seem
> to be doing a good job for you, you might try budesonide (Pulmicort)
> which is what I've been taking, and very happily, for some years.

Actually the fluticasone has done a good job for me.  I recently had a
batch of lung function tests which showed significant improvement over
the last test results taken 3 years ago - the histamine challenge test
in particular was significantly improved, so I'm pleased with the results.
Subjectively the symptoms are improved as well (other than the
exhaustion).

> The only reason I've never tried Flovent is that the Pulmicort has been
> so good.  I had tried all the others (Asmacort, Aerobid, Beclovent)
> available in the USA, and never did any of 'em work so well.

I'll suggest giving Pulmicort a try to my doc at some point (haven't tried
it yet).

I previously switched to fluticasone because the previous standard cfc-based
beclamethasone wasn't very effective, my latest try at the beclamethasone is
at my doc's suggestion, the theory is that this newer form of it (qvar,
non-CFC aerosol) has a much smaller particle size distribution than the
cfc-based beclamethasone inhaler and when taken with a spacer (3m aerochamber
plus) lung penetration and deposition efficiency is claimed to be much better
than for standard cfc-based beclamethasone hence same therapeutic benefit for
smaller dose.

> Someday mometasone will be available, when Schering-Plough gets up off
> their butts, gets it approved and makes it available to us mere mortals.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> but do use albuterol, you might try it.  Many of us are  r e a l  happy
> with it.---Jack

Interesting.  I don't have COPD but might be worth looking at this.
Is it a bronchodilator like albuterol?  Or a longer-acting drug like
serevent?

Thanks Jack - gumbo
00doc - 20 Dec 2004 15:51 GMT
My questions for the group are:-

(1) Are the exhaustion symptoms I have described consistent with some
degree of adrenal suppression resulting from use of the fluticasone
inhaler?

- The short answer is yes.  Obviously, a lot of things can cause
fatigue but adrenal insufficiency is one of them. I disagree with your
pulm on two counts. I wouldn't consider the dose you are on to be "low"
- more like moderate to high - and I wouldn't say adrenal suppression
from inhaled steroids is rare. Full blown Cushing's syndrome from
moderate doses of inhaled newer agents is not common but even that is
not rare with higher doses. Some level of biochemically measurable
adrenal insufficiency is, however, common with even moderate doses of
inhaled steroids and there have been many reports of people requiring
"stress doses" of steroids when stressed (as in severe infections,
surgery, trauma, etc).

(2) Is there any other mechanism other than adrenal suppression that
would be consistent with the apparant correlation between reducing
the fluticasone dose and experiencing exhaustion symptoms?

- Not that I can think of. I'd had to look up what kind of systemic
symptoms Churgg-Strauss syndrome can cause. I wouldn't let that stop me
from doing some eval for other causes of fatigue - like anemia,
diabetes,  and thyroid problems.

(3) Is flovent adrenal suppression a known issue? Have other people
experienced similar reactions?

See above. Yes, it is a known issue.

(4) Is there a reliable test for adrenal suppression that I could ask
my specialist to carry out?

There are a few ways to approach it. One would be to draw a morning
cortisol level. This is unlikely to be definitive - as chances are you
would be in the low normal range even if suppressed but sometimes the
results may be illuminating. The other test would be a stimulation
test. It is fairly easy to do - just draw a tube of blood for cortisol
level, give a medication to stimulate the adrenal gland
(Cosyntropin/ACTH), and then wait an hour and draw another cortisol
level. The problem is finding an office/lab that is willing and able to
do it. He may need to make creative use of an infusion clinic to do it.

(5) Does fluticasone (flovent) have a worse profile for systemic
effects
and adrenal suppression in particular than beclamethasone or
budenoside?

If anything I would say it is usually better than beclamethasone. I
would say for budesonide it is a toss up unless you have liver disease.
I agree with Jack that it would be nice if they would ever come out
with the promised inhaled mometasone (Asthmanex from what I hear it
will be named).

Signature

00doc

gumbo - 20 Dec 2004 19:08 GMT
Many thanks for your excellent response - much appreciated.

-- gumbo
gumbo - 20 Dec 2004 19:56 GMT
Thanks for your reply, some further questions below.

> - The short answer is yes.  Obviously, a lot of things can cause
> fatigue but adrenal insufficiency is one of them. I disagree with your
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> "stress doses" of steroids when stressed (as in severe infections,
> surgery, trauma, etc).

Is there any way to counteract the adrenal suppression given
that it is desirable to continue with the inhaled steroid
treatment since this has definately improved my lung condition?  
Presumably the aim would be to minimise the dose required while maintaining
the therapeutic effect, and minimise non-lung deposition (I've been told
approximately 50% of the dose from a standard MDI taken by mouth with
no spacer ends up in the throat/stomach).  So are any of the commonly
available delivery methods - different types of spacer, nebuliser,
different types of inhaler (powder, aerosol), known to be more
efficient and best at minimising adverse effects?

Are there any non-steroid drug therapies that can be used to counteract the
inhaler-induced adrenal suppression, or otherwise give protection
from the steroid inhaler adverse effects?

Should I be concerned about other adrenal suppression effects,
for example should I ask my specialist for bone scan for osteoporosis?

> (2) Is there any other mechanism other than adrenal suppression that
> would be consistent with the apparant correlation between reducing
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> from doing some eval for other causes of fatigue - like anemia,
> diabetes,  and thyroid problems.

Been tested for all three during the last year, negative on all three
of diabetes, anemia, thyroid.

-- gumbo
00doc - 21 Dec 2004 03:02 GMT
> Is there any way to counteract the adrenal suppression
> given
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> more
> efficient and best at minimising adverse effects?

I don't know about diferent delivery methods other than
spacer versus non-spacer for MDI's. I'm sure the neb would
actually result in more systemic absorption based on the
total dose delivered alone.

> Are there any non-steroid drug therapies that can be used
> to
> counteract the inhaler-induced adrenal suppression, or
> otherwise give
> protection
> from the steroid inhaler adverse effects?

No - not like I think you mean. There isn't an "antidote"
per se. All you can do is to keep the dose of inahed steroid
as low as possible while acknowledging that a flare and
burst of oral steroids would likely wipe out any savings
from reducing the inhaled steroid dose.

You can use other meds like Serevent (salmeterol),
theophylline, Singulair, Intal etc to try to keep the
steroid dose down. I would be concerned that reducing it
below 250ug twice daily would leave you with not taking
enough to realize the benefits of it as none of the other
meds have shown the halting of progression of lung damage
they way steroids have.

The Spiriva that Jack mentioned is a long acting dilator. It
is the same idea as usingsalmeterol instead of albuterol but
it works on a different receptor that compliments the beta
agonists (like albuterol).

> Should I be concerned about other adrenal suppression
> effects,
> for example should I ask my specialist for bone scan for
> osteoporosis?

I'm not 100% you have it. It might be worth it to find out
even though the test is a bit of a pain to do. Some would
advocate testing bone density regardless of adrenal
suppression (and seeing an eye doctor) so I am not sure that
is the issue. However, if you don't have it then a more
intensive search for the cause of the fatigue may be in
order and if you do then adding "stress doses" of oral
steroids may be indicated if you are ever severely ill or
undergo major surgery.

Signature

00doc

gumbo - 21 Dec 2004 17:51 GMT
Thanks again, very useful.  Point taken on not being sure that I have
the adrenal suppression - I would hardly expect you to say otherwise ;-)
I think it's definately worth getting tested for adr. supp. to be sure before
changing anything in my current drug reigeme at all.  Also good point on risk
of loosing therapeutic benefit if steroid dose is reduced too much.  
On balance some level of adverse steroid effect may be the lesser of two
evils, given the long-term lung damage caused by the disease itself.

I'll look up the spiriva; may be another option to help down-titrate the
inhaled steroid dose.  I'm currently using salmeterol for the same
reason (I'm actually taking seretide - combined fluticasone/salmeterol;
sorry, probably should have mentioned this earlier).  My specialist told me
that when taken together simultaneously the two drugs have a synergistic
beneficial effect that is greater than taking them separately, subjectively
I've certainly noticed some improvement, and some recent lung function tests
done in the local hospital showed definite improvement over the last few years,
so I'm not about to drop the fluticasone in a hurry.

Many thanks - gumbo
Joy - 22 Dec 2004 05:55 GMT
> You can use other meds like Serevent (salmeterol),
> theophylline, Singulair, Intal etc to try to keep the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> meds have shown the halting of progression of lung damage
> they way steroids have.

CBI,

You know me. I remember all this stuff I read. Can you comment on this?

Summary: In contrast to asthma, inhaled corticosteroids should not be used
as a first-line medication in patients with COPD. Identification of patients
with COPD who might benefit from long-term treatment with ICS remains
paramount

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/473171?src=search

So how radical is this article considered? Or is it the new state of the
art?

Joy
00doc - 23 Dec 2004 01:15 GMT
>> You can use other meds like Serevent (salmeterol),
>> theophylline, Singulair, Intal etc to try to keep the
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> new state of
> the art?

COPD and asthma are really two different diseases (and some
would break each down into more than one subgroup).

The most striking difference is that COPD involves some
architectural damage. Lung tissue is actually lost which
leaves fewer alveoli and less surface area to exchange
gasses. This is why it is common to see COPD'ers on oxygen,
even of their wheezing is not so bad, but rare to see
asthmatics chronically on oxygen, even of their wheezing is
severe. The wheezing of COPD always involves to at least
some degree airways collapsing due to a decreased "tethering
effect" fromt he viable lung tissue (which remember is
decreased). There may be some component of
bronchoconstriction and edema but the amount varies.

Immunologically the inflammatoriy cells found in chronic
COPD are granulocytes (a.k.a. neutrophils). These cells are
not very responsive to steriods and so inhaled sterois have
little role in calimg down the chronic inflammation of COPD
and do not prevent long term loss of lung function. In
contrast, the inflammatory cells of asthma are eosinophils
which are extremely responsive to steroids.

Interestingly, while chronic COPD usually involves
granulocytes exacerbations frequently involve increased
eosinophils. So there is a role for steroids, both in
treating exacerbations and in preventing frequent relapses.
So I think the state of the art right now is to not use
inhaled steroids unless the person is having frequent and/or
severe exacerbations - then to go ahead and try them.

Signature

00doc

Joy - 23 Dec 2004 02:54 GMT
> >> You can use other meds like Serevent (salmeterol),
> >> theophylline, Singulair, Intal etc to try to keep the
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
> inhaled steroids unless the person is having frequent and/or
> severe exacerbations - then to go ahead and try them.
Joy - 23 Dec 2004 03:00 GMT
More  later. Xmas and all that. But.......... so I was right. I had asthma.

> > >> You can use other meds like Serevent (salmeterol),
> > >> theophylline, Singulair, Intal etc to try to keep the
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
> > inhaled steroids unless the person is having frequent and/or
> > severe exacerbations - then to go ahead and try them.
Joy - 23 Dec 2004 12:22 GMT
> Interestingly, while chronic COPD usually involves
> granulocytes exacerbations frequently involve increased
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> inhaled steroids unless the person is having frequent and/or
> severe exacerbations - then to go ahead and try them.

You know, I did somewhere see an article that stated inhaled steroids did
little or nothing to prevent the downhill slide of COPD. I don't want to
take the time to find that today, but I am certain that most people with
COPD were on steroids last I checked. Are you saying the protocols have
changed or are changing?

Joy
00doc - 23 Dec 2004 18:24 GMT
"You know, I did somewhere see an article that stated inhaled steroids
did
little or nothing to prevent the downhill slide of COPD. I don't want
to
take the time to find that today, but I am certain that most people
with
COPD were on steroids last I checked. Are you saying the protocols have
changed or are changing?

Joy"

Yes, things are changing.

When I was in residency in the 1990's "triple A" therapy was pretty
standard - albuterol, Atrovent, and Azmacort. The major difference in
treatment between COPD and asthma was that you added Atrovent to the
Albuterol/steroid combination that the asthmatics were getting.

It is still common to automatically put COPD'er's on inhaled steroids
but I think that stems from a combination of diagnostic uncertainty
about the diagnosis (re: asthma vs COPD - it may not be easy in a
middle aged smoker) and people not being up to date on COPD management.

Right now we usually go with bronchodilators for COPD - albuterol,
Atrovent, Serevent, Spiriva, and even theophylline (which has other
beneficial effects) as the first line. These meds should be titrated to
handle the chronic symptoms. Steroids can be added to handle acute
excerbations, suppress recurrent exacerbations, and if there is some
concern of an asthma component.

Other anti-inflammatories like Tilade/Intal and Singulair/Accolate are
usually reserved for asthmatics and generally aren't given to people
with COPD who have no component of asthma.

Signature

00doc

Joy - 23 Dec 2004 18:29 GMT
> "You know, I did somewhere see an article that stated inhaled steroids
> did
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> usually reserved for asthmatics and generally aren't given to people
> with COPD who have no component of asthma.
Joy - 23 Dec 2004 18:33 GMT
> When I was in residency in the 1990's "triple A" therapy was pretty
> standard - albuterol, Atrovent, and Azmacort. The major difference in
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> usually reserved for asthmatics and generally aren't given to people
> with COPD who have no component of asthma.

Again, the drugs that helped me were Singulair and Intal and the COPD drugs
that didn't help included Atrovent and Theophylline. So, whatever I had was
chronic like COPD vs episodic like asthma in presentation, but the drugs
that worked were asthma meds. I certainly feel for someone who has both. It
must be terrible.

Joy
jackmallory@webtv.net - 24 Dec 2004 16:37 GMT
Joy writes
<<<So, whatever I had was chronic like COPD vs episodic like asthma in
presentation, but the drugs that worked were asthma meds. I certainly
feel for someone who has both. It must be terrible.>>>

In the early years some doctors, including  pulminologists, treated me
for the one  OR  the other: quite a bad trap.

I am allergic only to building materials and subway system air at this
point. Glad it's so limited.
 
Pulmicort helped me greatly in gettng a handle on symptons, including
wheezing, which I don't do any more.  Short bursts of prednisone open
my airways, usually overnight.

I use albuterol of course and am happy with the new longacting limbic
system bronchodialator Spiriva (tiotropium)

Use Singulair.  It is not making a profound change, if at all.

But the cat-scan and the x-rays say I have emphysema. I'm sure now
there's chronic bronchitis.  That would explain the steroids.  

In high school I could box only two one-minute rounds.  In the third I'd
crash.  And I couldn' run around the reservoir.  

That was fifty years ago.

Duh! Nobody ever told me I had asthma.

Jack
 
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