Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Asthma / December 2004
fluticasone steroid inhaler systemic effects?
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gumbo - 19 Dec 2004 10:17 GMT I have been taking inhaled fluticasone (flovent) 1000 mcg per day (500 mcg am, 500 mcg pm) for the last couple of years. Over the last few months I have noticed that if I miss one or more doses I experience severe exhaustion, espcially if I miss say 2 or 3 consecutive doses. The exhaustion is more pronounced if I miss the morning dose than the evening dose (possibly because I'm usually asleep after the evening dose!). The main symptom is overwhelming tiredness forcing me to go and lie down during the day, or sleeping 12 hours overnight and then feeling absolutely terrible and exhausted on waking. No amount of sleep seems to resolve the exhaustion. If however I restore the fluticasone dose the exhaustion largely goes away and I can function more or less normally. I have found by repeated experiment that the exhaustion symptoms are consistently reproducible by missing 1 or more fluticasone doeses, and go away within a day or so of re-introducing the full fluticasone dose.
My specialist recently tried substituting 50% of the fluticasone dose with qvar beclamethasone (a small particle form of beclamethasone). This was unrelated to the fatigue symptoms, the aim was to try to improve the asthma control which is not fully controlled by the flovent. The amount of beclamethasone substituted was calculated by the specialist to be equivalent to half of the fluticasone done, so the the combined effect of the two drugs should be the same as the original 1000 mcg/day flovent.
On taking the qvar and reduced flovent doses I found I got similar exhaustion to missing the fluticasone dose, so the qvar doesn't seem to have the same systemic effect as the fluticasone. After 1-2 days it became apparant that I would have to switch back to the full 500 mcg fluticasone dose in the morning to avoid the exhaustion.
I have conducted an internet search and have found there have been a few published studies showing adrenal suppression from inhaled fluticasone, but these are mainly results obtained from children, whereas I am an adult male.
My specialist has told me that systemic effects for inhaled steroids are very rare and unlikely since the dose is small and absorbtion from the lungs into the body is supposedly minimal. The patient information leaflet that comes with the fluticasone inhaler also claims that systemic effects from use of the inhaler are "very rare". (Of course, I recognise that "very rare" does not mean "never").
My questions for the group are:-
(1) Are the exhaustion symptoms I have described consistent with some degree of adrenal suppression resulting from use of the fluticasone inhaler?
(2) Is there any other mechanism other than adrenal suppression that would be consistent with the apparant correlation between reducing the fluticasone dose and experiencing exhaustion symptoms?
(3) Is flovent adrenal suppression a known issue? Have other people experienced similar reactions?
(4) Is there a reliable test for adrenal suppression that I could ask my specialist to carry out?
(5) Does fluticasone (flovent) have a worse profile for systemic effects and adrenal suppression in particular than beclamethasone or budenoside?
I'll be very grateful for any information received.
Sorry for the long post!
-- gumbo
jackmallory@webtv.net - 19 Dec 2004 15:44 GMT Surely fluticasone is a better corticosteroid than beclomethazone.
If you want to continue to screw around with your steroids, which seem to be doing a good job for you, you might try budesonide (Pulmicort) which is what I've been taking, and very happily, for some years.
The only reason I've never tried Flovent is that the Pulmicort has been so good. I had tried all the others (Asmacort, Aerobid, Beclovent) available in the USA, and never did any of 'em work so well.
Someday mometasone will be available, when Schering-Plough gets up off their butts, gets it approved and makes it available to us mere mortals.
Til then we'll have to make do.
Gumbo have you tried tiotropium (Spiriva)? Even if you don't have COPD, but do use albuterol, you might try it. Many of us are r e a l happy with it.---Jack
gumbo - 20 Dec 2004 19:29 GMT > Surely fluticasone is a better corticosteroid than beclomethazone. > > If you want to continue to screw around with your steroids, which seem > to be doing a good job for you, you might try budesonide (Pulmicort) > which is what I've been taking, and very happily, for some years. Actually the fluticasone has done a good job for me. I recently had a batch of lung function tests which showed significant improvement over the last test results taken 3 years ago - the histamine challenge test in particular was significantly improved, so I'm pleased with the results. Subjectively the symptoms are improved as well (other than the exhaustion).
> The only reason I've never tried Flovent is that the Pulmicort has been > so good. I had tried all the others (Asmacort, Aerobid, Beclovent) > available in the USA, and never did any of 'em work so well. I'll suggest giving Pulmicort a try to my doc at some point (haven't tried it yet).
I previously switched to fluticasone because the previous standard cfc-based beclamethasone wasn't very effective, my latest try at the beclamethasone is at my doc's suggestion, the theory is that this newer form of it (qvar, non-CFC aerosol) has a much smaller particle size distribution than the cfc-based beclamethasone inhaler and when taken with a spacer (3m aerochamber plus) lung penetration and deposition efficiency is claimed to be much better than for standard cfc-based beclamethasone hence same therapeutic benefit for smaller dose.
> Someday mometasone will be available, when Schering-Plough gets up off > their butts, gets it approved and makes it available to us mere mortals. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > but do use albuterol, you might try it. Many of us are r e a l happy > with it.---Jack Interesting. I don't have COPD but might be worth looking at this. Is it a bronchodilator like albuterol? Or a longer-acting drug like serevent?
Thanks Jack - gumbo
00doc - 20 Dec 2004 15:51 GMT My questions for the group are:-
(1) Are the exhaustion symptoms I have described consistent with some degree of adrenal suppression resulting from use of the fluticasone inhaler?
- The short answer is yes. Obviously, a lot of things can cause fatigue but adrenal insufficiency is one of them. I disagree with your pulm on two counts. I wouldn't consider the dose you are on to be "low" - more like moderate to high - and I wouldn't say adrenal suppression from inhaled steroids is rare. Full blown Cushing's syndrome from moderate doses of inhaled newer agents is not common but even that is not rare with higher doses. Some level of biochemically measurable adrenal insufficiency is, however, common with even moderate doses of inhaled steroids and there have been many reports of people requiring "stress doses" of steroids when stressed (as in severe infections, surgery, trauma, etc).
(2) Is there any other mechanism other than adrenal suppression that would be consistent with the apparant correlation between reducing the fluticasone dose and experiencing exhaustion symptoms?
- Not that I can think of. I'd had to look up what kind of systemic symptoms Churgg-Strauss syndrome can cause. I wouldn't let that stop me from doing some eval for other causes of fatigue - like anemia, diabetes, and thyroid problems.
(3) Is flovent adrenal suppression a known issue? Have other people experienced similar reactions?
See above. Yes, it is a known issue.
(4) Is there a reliable test for adrenal suppression that I could ask my specialist to carry out?
There are a few ways to approach it. One would be to draw a morning cortisol level. This is unlikely to be definitive - as chances are you would be in the low normal range even if suppressed but sometimes the results may be illuminating. The other test would be a stimulation test. It is fairly easy to do - just draw a tube of blood for cortisol level, give a medication to stimulate the adrenal gland (Cosyntropin/ACTH), and then wait an hour and draw another cortisol level. The problem is finding an office/lab that is willing and able to do it. He may need to make creative use of an infusion clinic to do it.
(5) Does fluticasone (flovent) have a worse profile for systemic effects and adrenal suppression in particular than beclamethasone or budenoside?
If anything I would say it is usually better than beclamethasone. I would say for budesonide it is a toss up unless you have liver disease. I agree with Jack that it would be nice if they would ever come out with the promised inhaled mometasone (Asthmanex from what I hear it will be named).
 Signature 00doc
gumbo - 20 Dec 2004 19:08 GMT Many thanks for your excellent response - much appreciated.
-- gumbo
gumbo - 20 Dec 2004 19:56 GMT Thanks for your reply, some further questions below.
> - The short answer is yes. Obviously, a lot of things can cause > fatigue but adrenal insufficiency is one of them. I disagree with your [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > "stress doses" of steroids when stressed (as in severe infections, > surgery, trauma, etc). Is there any way to counteract the adrenal suppression given that it is desirable to continue with the inhaled steroid treatment since this has definately improved my lung condition? Presumably the aim would be to minimise the dose required while maintaining the therapeutic effect, and minimise non-lung deposition (I've been told approximately 50% of the dose from a standard MDI taken by mouth with no spacer ends up in the throat/stomach). So are any of the commonly available delivery methods - different types of spacer, nebuliser, different types of inhaler (powder, aerosol), known to be more efficient and best at minimising adverse effects?
Are there any non-steroid drug therapies that can be used to counteract the inhaler-induced adrenal suppression, or otherwise give protection from the steroid inhaler adverse effects?
Should I be concerned about other adrenal suppression effects, for example should I ask my specialist for bone scan for osteoporosis?
> (2) Is there any other mechanism other than adrenal suppression that > would be consistent with the apparant correlation between reducing [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > from doing some eval for other causes of fatigue - like anemia, > diabetes, and thyroid problems. Been tested for all three during the last year, negative on all three of diabetes, anemia, thyroid.
-- gumbo
00doc - 21 Dec 2004 03:02 GMT > Is there any way to counteract the adrenal suppression > given [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > more > efficient and best at minimising adverse effects? I don't know about diferent delivery methods other than spacer versus non-spacer for MDI's. I'm sure the neb would actually result in more systemic absorption based on the total dose delivered alone.
> Are there any non-steroid drug therapies that can be used > to > counteract the inhaler-induced adrenal suppression, or > otherwise give > protection > from the steroid inhaler adverse effects? No - not like I think you mean. There isn't an "antidote" per se. All you can do is to keep the dose of inahed steroid as low as possible while acknowledging that a flare and burst of oral steroids would likely wipe out any savings from reducing the inhaled steroid dose.
You can use other meds like Serevent (salmeterol), theophylline, Singulair, Intal etc to try to keep the steroid dose down. I would be concerned that reducing it below 250ug twice daily would leave you with not taking enough to realize the benefits of it as none of the other meds have shown the halting of progression of lung damage they way steroids have.
The Spiriva that Jack mentioned is a long acting dilator. It is the same idea as usingsalmeterol instead of albuterol but it works on a different receptor that compliments the beta agonists (like albuterol).
> Should I be concerned about other adrenal suppression > effects, > for example should I ask my specialist for bone scan for > osteoporosis? I'm not 100% you have it. It might be worth it to find out even though the test is a bit of a pain to do. Some would advocate testing bone density regardless of adrenal suppression (and seeing an eye doctor) so I am not sure that is the issue. However, if you don't have it then a more intensive search for the cause of the fatigue may be in order and if you do then adding "stress doses" of oral steroids may be indicated if you are ever severely ill or undergo major surgery.
 Signature 00doc
gumbo - 21 Dec 2004 17:51 GMT Thanks again, very useful. Point taken on not being sure that I have the adrenal suppression - I would hardly expect you to say otherwise ;-) I think it's definately worth getting tested for adr. supp. to be sure before changing anything in my current drug reigeme at all. Also good point on risk of loosing therapeutic benefit if steroid dose is reduced too much. On balance some level of adverse steroid effect may be the lesser of two evils, given the long-term lung damage caused by the disease itself.
I'll look up the spiriva; may be another option to help down-titrate the inhaled steroid dose. I'm currently using salmeterol for the same reason (I'm actually taking seretide - combined fluticasone/salmeterol; sorry, probably should have mentioned this earlier). My specialist told me that when taken together simultaneously the two drugs have a synergistic beneficial effect that is greater than taking them separately, subjectively I've certainly noticed some improvement, and some recent lung function tests done in the local hospital showed definite improvement over the last few years, so I'm not about to drop the fluticasone in a hurry.
Many thanks - gumbo
Joy - 22 Dec 2004 05:55 GMT > You can use other meds like Serevent (salmeterol), > theophylline, Singulair, Intal etc to try to keep the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > meds have shown the halting of progression of lung damage > they way steroids have. CBI,
You know me. I remember all this stuff I read. Can you comment on this?
Summary: In contrast to asthma, inhaled corticosteroids should not be used as a first-line medication in patients with COPD. Identification of patients with COPD who might benefit from long-term treatment with ICS remains paramount
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/473171?src=search
So how radical is this article considered? Or is it the new state of the art?
Joy
00doc - 23 Dec 2004 01:15 GMT >> You can use other meds like Serevent (salmeterol), >> theophylline, Singulair, Intal etc to try to keep the [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > new state of > the art? COPD and asthma are really two different diseases (and some would break each down into more than one subgroup).
The most striking difference is that COPD involves some architectural damage. Lung tissue is actually lost which leaves fewer alveoli and less surface area to exchange gasses. This is why it is common to see COPD'ers on oxygen, even of their wheezing is not so bad, but rare to see asthmatics chronically on oxygen, even of their wheezing is severe. The wheezing of COPD always involves to at least some degree airways collapsing due to a decreased "tethering effect" fromt he viable lung tissue (which remember is decreased). There may be some component of bronchoconstriction and edema but the amount varies.
Immunologically the inflammatoriy cells found in chronic COPD are granulocytes (a.k.a. neutrophils). These cells are not very responsive to steriods and so inhaled sterois have little role in calimg down the chronic inflammation of COPD and do not prevent long term loss of lung function. In contrast, the inflammatory cells of asthma are eosinophils which are extremely responsive to steroids.
Interestingly, while chronic COPD usually involves granulocytes exacerbations frequently involve increased eosinophils. So there is a role for steroids, both in treating exacerbations and in preventing frequent relapses. So I think the state of the art right now is to not use inhaled steroids unless the person is having frequent and/or severe exacerbations - then to go ahead and try them.
 Signature 00doc
Joy - 23 Dec 2004 02:54 GMT > >> You can use other meds like Serevent (salmeterol), > >> theophylline, Singulair, Intal etc to try to keep the [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > inhaled steroids unless the person is having frequent and/or > severe exacerbations - then to go ahead and try them. Joy - 23 Dec 2004 03:00 GMT More later. Xmas and all that. But.......... so I was right. I had asthma.
> > >> You can use other meds like Serevent (salmeterol), > > >> theophylline, Singulair, Intal etc to try to keep the [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > > inhaled steroids unless the person is having frequent and/or > > severe exacerbations - then to go ahead and try them. Joy - 23 Dec 2004 12:22 GMT > Interestingly, while chronic COPD usually involves > granulocytes exacerbations frequently involve increased [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > inhaled steroids unless the person is having frequent and/or > severe exacerbations - then to go ahead and try them. You know, I did somewhere see an article that stated inhaled steroids did little or nothing to prevent the downhill slide of COPD. I don't want to take the time to find that today, but I am certain that most people with COPD were on steroids last I checked. Are you saying the protocols have changed or are changing?
Joy
00doc - 23 Dec 2004 18:24 GMT "You know, I did somewhere see an article that stated inhaled steroids did little or nothing to prevent the downhill slide of COPD. I don't want to take the time to find that today, but I am certain that most people with COPD were on steroids last I checked. Are you saying the protocols have changed or are changing?
Joy"
Yes, things are changing.
When I was in residency in the 1990's "triple A" therapy was pretty standard - albuterol, Atrovent, and Azmacort. The major difference in treatment between COPD and asthma was that you added Atrovent to the Albuterol/steroid combination that the asthmatics were getting.
It is still common to automatically put COPD'er's on inhaled steroids but I think that stems from a combination of diagnostic uncertainty about the diagnosis (re: asthma vs COPD - it may not be easy in a middle aged smoker) and people not being up to date on COPD management.
Right now we usually go with bronchodilators for COPD - albuterol, Atrovent, Serevent, Spiriva, and even theophylline (which has other beneficial effects) as the first line. These meds should be titrated to handle the chronic symptoms. Steroids can be added to handle acute excerbations, suppress recurrent exacerbations, and if there is some concern of an asthma component.
Other anti-inflammatories like Tilade/Intal and Singulair/Accolate are usually reserved for asthmatics and generally aren't given to people with COPD who have no component of asthma.
 Signature 00doc
Joy - 23 Dec 2004 18:29 GMT > "You know, I did somewhere see an article that stated inhaled steroids > did [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > usually reserved for asthmatics and generally aren't given to people > with COPD who have no component of asthma. Joy - 23 Dec 2004 18:33 GMT > When I was in residency in the 1990's "triple A" therapy was pretty > standard - albuterol, Atrovent, and Azmacort. The major difference in [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > usually reserved for asthmatics and generally aren't given to people > with COPD who have no component of asthma. Again, the drugs that helped me were Singulair and Intal and the COPD drugs that didn't help included Atrovent and Theophylline. So, whatever I had was chronic like COPD vs episodic like asthma in presentation, but the drugs that worked were asthma meds. I certainly feel for someone who has both. It must be terrible.
Joy
jackmallory@webtv.net - 24 Dec 2004 16:37 GMT Joy writes <<<So, whatever I had was chronic like COPD vs episodic like asthma in presentation, but the drugs that worked were asthma meds. I certainly feel for someone who has both. It must be terrible.>>>
In the early years some doctors, including pulminologists, treated me for the one OR the other: quite a bad trap.
I am allergic only to building materials and subway system air at this point. Glad it's so limited. Pulmicort helped me greatly in gettng a handle on symptons, including wheezing, which I don't do any more. Short bursts of prednisone open my airways, usually overnight.
I use albuterol of course and am happy with the new longacting limbic system bronchodialator Spiriva (tiotropium)
Use Singulair. It is not making a profound change, if at all.
But the cat-scan and the x-rays say I have emphysema. I'm sure now there's chronic bronchitis. That would explain the steroids.
In high school I could box only two one-minute rounds. In the third I'd crash. And I couldn' run around the reservoir.
That was fifty years ago.
Duh! Nobody ever told me I had asthma.
Jack
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