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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Asthma / December 2004

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"Ionic" Air Purifier along side a humidifier

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PiousSwine - 06 Dec 2004 16:31 GMT
Hey folks,

I'm not an asthmatic, but my sister is, and I figure you guys are probably a
leading authority on clean air.

I have recently purchased a Sharp FP-N60CX  purifier (which may
automatically make me an enemy, since apparently these units do produce
subtle ozone).  It cleans the air well enough, but may be removing some
moisture from my already dry environment.

My question:  is it ok to use a humidifier along side such a device?  The
documentation that came with this unit isn't very thorough.  I wouldn't plan
on running it directly beside the purifier or anything, Im just not sure if
there is any history of humidifier vs. modern negative ion purifiers.

Thanks in advance.
Mary - 06 Dec 2004 16:48 GMT
> Hey folks,
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Thanks in advance.

Have you seen the EPA material about these filters? Not what they are
doing to the environment but what they might be doing to people:

http://www.airtesters.com/ionizers.cfm

Have you tried Hepa filters? I use the large ones and cannot imagine
anything doing a better job.
PiousSwine - 06 Dec 2004 17:41 GMT
">
> http://www.airtesters.com/ionizers.cfm
>
> Have you tried Hepa filters? I use the large ones and cannot imagine
> anything doing a better job.

It actually has 3 filters.  A simple dust catcher, a charcoal filter, and a
Hepa.  It's nice really, it's not an "Ozone Generator" although they do
admit the unit does produce a small amount  (I believe quite a few
electronic devices do, actually).

It's relatively new, so there aren't too many reviews yet.  It has helped in
reducing my cat's dander quite a bit, actually..

We shall see, I can respect your concerns for ozone..  I hope this model
doesn't appear on the blacklists.
Mary - 06 Dec 2004 17:45 GMT
> ">
> > http://www.airtesters.com/ionizers.cfm
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> admit the unit does produce a small amount  (I believe quite a few
> electronic devices do, actually).

> It's relatively new, so there aren't too many reviews yet.  It has helped in
> reducing my cat's dander quite a bit, actually..
>
> We shall see, I can respect your concerns for ozone..  I hope this model
> doesn't appear on the blacklists.

Hmm. I see, from your comments I thought it was an "Ionic Breeze"
sort of thing. I'll be interested to know how it works for you. Although
I don't know for sure, it is hard to imagine that a humidifier could
interfere
with its effectiveness. I hope someone else will be better able to tell you.
Evgenij Barsukov - 07 Dec 2004 16:07 GMT
>>Hey folks,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> Have you tried Hepa filters? I use the large ones and cannot imagine
> anything doing a better job.

One problem with this article that they make no destinction betweeen
two different devices:
1) ozone generator
2) electrostatic dust precipitator

Both devices have corona discharge in them, which generates a litle
ozone as by-product. But:
    Device 1) has ozone generation as primary goal,
while it does not have anough air-flow or precipitation surfaces to
remove particles from the are. So, they do not purify the air, and
yet produce ozone that is not something humans should be around. It is
extremely active gas that reacts with preaty much everything and so
modifies organic molecules. Even if there would not be medical evidence
of its harmfulness, it should be treated with precaution. So, if you
ask me, device 1 is counter-productive as it has possible harm and no merit.
    Device 2) (which, btw. Ionic Breeze claims to be) is specifically
designed to remove particles from the air by charging particles through
corona discharge flow, with subsequent attraction of charged particles
and deposition on a counter-electrode surface. Such devices are widely
used in undustry for air purification in high performance large
through-put units and are extremely effective, specialy for removing
small particles not caught by normal filters. So, devices 2 are in fact
comparable in efficiency and can be better then HEPA filters in removing
small particles. You have to check the specs and see 2 characteristics,
"Purification specs":
- air throughput
- particle deposition rate
when comparing different air purifiers.

So, there are 2 different issues there
- ozone generation that is possibly harmful
- purification efficiency
It can well be that particular (large) electrostatic dust precipitators
for home use have higher air throughput and particle desposition rate
than comparably priced HEPA air purifiers. And yet there is potential
harmfulness of ozone. It will be not a simple decision, as usual you
will have pro and cons. But for HEPA filter with same purifications
specs as electrostatic dust precipitator I would use the first because
of absent ozone.

Regards,
Evgenij
Mary - 07 Dec 2004 17:22 GMT
> > Have you seen the EPA material about these filters? Not what they are
> > doing to the environment but what they might be doing to people:
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> Regards,
> Evgenij

Thanks for an excellent analysis and commentary.
PENMART01 - 07 Dec 2004 19:06 GMT
>"Mary"
>
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>
>Thanks for an excellent analysis and commentary.

What anal-ysis, it's all highly subjective  prejudiced commentary, and none of
it addresses the OP's inquirey; using air purifiers in tandem with humidifiers.
Functionally illiterate pinheads can't seem to get past beating the same old
ozone drum.

---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
         ---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
                                *********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon          
````````````  
PiousSwine - 08 Dec 2004 13:24 GMT
">
> What anal-ysis, it's all highly subjective  prejudiced commentary, and none of
> it addresses the OP's inquirey; using air purifiers in tandem with humidifiers.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Sheldon
> ````````````

Haha..

Well, if my mother hadn't taught me about when not to say anything...

These reactions do seem rather knee jerk... but I can respect that, I
suppose.  respiratory problems are pretty high on the list of legitimate
things people can be bitchy (perhaps opinionated is a better word)  about.

In regards to non 'Ionic' purifiers... is everyone absolutely certain that
the motors that drive the fans of these units are %100 ozone free?
Electrical motors produce ozone. These specialized units may produce very
little, but they still probably do.  I think the brushless AC jobbies create
much less than their DC counterparts, but I believe most electrical prime
movers do, on some level.

I think placebo places a rather large part in all of this..

For the record, I am NOT talking about an "Ionic Breeze"  It's by Sharp (not
Sharper Image), and it has a Hepa filter in it as well.
Sharp FP-N60CX
NorthShoreCEO - 08 Dec 2004 14:05 GMT
Well, quite honestly you mentioned your sisters asthma and some of us felt it necessary to point out that if you were so concerned about her asthma, you might want to know that the product you chose could exacerbate her condition.  I didn't just pull that out of the air, I provided links to a legitimate asthma/allergy association and findings of the epa.  If you think that's a knee jerk response and being opinionated, then I think you're probably less interested in your sisters health than you are in getting the answer you want to hear.  

I guess stating that people with asthma can be bitchy is your way of saying "Thank you!".  

 Haha..

 Well, if my mother hadn't taught me about when not to say anything...

 These reactions do seem rather knee jerk... but I can respect that, I
 suppose.  respiratory problems are pretty high on the list of legitimate
 things people can be bitchy (perhaps opinionated is a better word)  about.

 In regards to non 'Ionic' purifiers... is everyone absolutely certain that
 the motors that drive the fans of these units are %100 ozone free?
 Electrical motors produce ozone. These specialized units may produce very
 little, but they still probably do.  I think the brushless AC jobbies create
 much less than their DC counterparts, but I believe most electrical prime
 movers do, on some level.

 I think placebo places a rather large part in all of this..

 For the record, I am NOT talking about an "Ionic Breeze"  It's by Sharp (not
 Sharper Image), and it has a Hepa filter in it as well.
 Sharp FP-N60CX
ARoberts - 09 Dec 2004 02:40 GMT
> ">
>> What anal-ysis, it's all highly subjective  prejudiced commentary, and
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> much less than their DC counterparts, but I believe most electrical prime
> movers do, on some level.

Nope, AC synchronous/shaded-pole motors and brushless DC motors do not
produce ozone. Since neither is commutated by brushes, there is no sparking,
and therefore, no ozone.
allergy - 09 Dec 2004 14:54 GMT
> > Electrical motors produce ozone. These specialized units may produce very
> > little, but they still probably do.  I think the brushless AC jobbies
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> produce ozone. Since neither is commutated by brushes, there is no sparking,
> and therefore, no ozone.

Aha! Finally an explanation I can understand.  Certainly makes
sense.  I may be wrong, but I always thought, (and I most
definitely am no kind of electrical engineer), that trace amounts
of ozone were an unavoidable by-product of high-voltage
processes.  Isn't that why the back of a TV set always seems to
emit a little bit of ozone when it's operating?  Or am I wrong on
this?

If someone on the group knows, I'd appreciate finding out for
sure.  Thanks!
ARoberts - 10 Dec 2004 01:16 GMT
>> > Electrical motors produce ozone. These specialized units may
> produce very
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> If someone on the group knows, I'd appreciate finding out for
> sure.  Thanks!

Yes, high voltage processes that produce a corona or arcing can create
ozone.  The high-voltage section of a tv (and computers) has such voltages
(20,000 - 30,000 V) , and special coatings are applied to components to
prevent or minimize such arcing.  The CRT (cathode ray tube) anode (looks
like a suction cup connector on the side of the CRT) is often the source of
such arcing since it is at high potential and exposed to dust and other
contaminants.  In addition to coatings, manufacturers use snubbers, spark
gaps and gas discharge tubes to dissipate excessive voltages.

The line voltages (110 V) present in common AC synchronous motors are far
below the potentials needed to create arcing and corona.  Some line-operated
drills and electric mixers create arcing and small amounts of ozone, since
they are really just DC brush motors that operate from rectified AC.  Hope
that this helps.
NorthShoreCEO - 06 Dec 2004 18:17 GMT
Hi Pious,

Ionizers are to be avoided if you have asthma, because they can make your condition worse.  Take a look at number 3 in their list of things to do to protect your lungs:

http://www.aaaai.org/media/news_releases/2000/06/000608.html

and if you read through this, you'll see why:

http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/ozonegen.html

Sorry - that's probably not what you wanted to hear, but if you have asthma, those ion purifiers (there's an oxymoron!) are bad news.

 Hey folks,

 I'm not an asthmatic, but my sister is, and I figure you guys are probably a
 leading authority on clean air.

 I have recently purchased a Sharp FP-N60CX  purifier (which may
 automatically make me an enemy, since apparently these units do produce
 subtle ozone).  It cleans the air well enough, but may be removing some
 moisture from my already dry environment.

 My question:  is it ok to use a humidifier along side such a device?  The
 documentation that came with this unit isn't very thorough.  I wouldn't plan
 on running it directly beside the purifier or anything, Im just not sure if
 there is any history of humidifier vs. modern negative ion purifiers.

 Thanks in advance.
PiousSwine - 06 Dec 2004 19:02 GMT
Hi Pious,

Ionizers are to be avoided if you have asthma, because they can make your
condition worse.  Take a look at number 3 in their list of things to do to
protect your lungs:

http://www.aaaai.org/media/news_releases/2000/06/000608.html

and if you read through this, you'll see why:

http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/ozonegen.html

Sorry - that's probably not what you wanted to hear, but if you have asthma,
those ion purifiers (there's an oxymoron!) are bad news.

So I've heard..

Fortunately, I do not have asthma, although I am rather environmentally
aware.  These units are apparently 'approved' by some sort of Asthma
Associations.. are these claims and/or groups who are approving them, all
bogus?

Again, this unit is *not* an ozone generator, per se, although they do admit
to trace amounts.. (which again quite a few electronic devices do)

I knew I was treading in dangerous waters here in regards to this
technology, thanks for the input, regardless. ;)
nonerequired - 06 Dec 2004 20:16 GMT
I'm a member of the Asthma and Allergy Foundation (WA branch). National AAFA
decided for a reason they have NEVER explained to the branchs to give a Seal of
Approval to the Breeze.

From the Sharper Image website:
[Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America® Consumer Product Seal awarded to the
Ionic Breeze® Quadra® and GP air purifiers.]

This has caused HOWLS of protest from the branches, a drop in revenue from
disturbed professional organizations (Allergists, etc.), and a smudge on the
organization's record. I assume it was a marketing decision based on a need for
some cash flow and an unhappy decision not to run it by their medical board
first. If they had I cannot imagine it would have gone through. I think they
made a pretty tough contract and (hopefully) will drop it as soon as possible.
It's embarassing. Personally, I consider it to be bogus.

Re: Ionic Breeze-look it up in Consumer's Report. It' the bottom of the list in
terms of effectiveness, that's ignoring the ozone issue. It's a triumph of
marketing over reason.

Fritz Merkel
Respiratory Care Practitioner
Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America-Wa Branch

> Fortunately, I do not have asthma, although I am rather environmentally
> aware.  These units are apparently 'approved' by some sort of Asthma
> Associations.. are these claims and/or groups who are approving them, all
> bogus?
NorthShoreCEO - 06 Dec 2004 20:52 GMT
Well, there you go!  Could be the association Fritz refers to.  I can understand the howls of protest.  Too bad that branch has lost credibility with the community.  It will take some time to gain it back.

 I'm a member of the Asthma and Allergy Foundation (WA branch). National AAFA
 decided for a reason they have NEVER explained to the branchs to give a Seal of
 Approval to the Breeze.

  From the Sharper Image website:
 [Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America® Consumer Product Seal awarded to the
 Ionic Breeze® Quadra® and GP air purifiers.]

 This has caused HOWLS of protest from the branches, a drop in revenue from
 disturbed professional organizations (Allergists, etc.), and a smudge on the
 organization's record. I assume it was a marketing decision based on a need for
 some cash flow and an unhappy decision not to run it by their medical board
 first. If they had I cannot imagine it would have gone through. I think they
 made a pretty tough contract and (hopefully) will drop it as soon as possible.
 It's embarassing. Personally, I consider it to be bogus.

 Re: Ionic Breeze-look it up in Consumer's Report. It' the bottom of the list in
 terms of effectiveness, that's ignoring the ozone issue. It's a triumph of
 marketing over reason.

 Fritz Merkel
 Respiratory Care Practitioner
 Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America-Wa Branch

 >
 > Fortunately, I do not have asthma, although I am rather environmentally
 > aware.  These units are apparently 'approved' by some sort of Asthma
 > Associations.. are these claims and/or groups who are approving them, all
 > bogus?
 >
 >
ARoberts - 07 Dec 2004 00:55 GMT
> I'm a member of the Asthma and Allergy Foundation (WA branch). National
> AAFA decided for a reason they have NEVER explained to the branchs to give
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> Respiratory Care Practitioner
> Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America-Wa Branch

Thanks for writing that, and for your integrity in opposing their mindless
decision.  It is appalling that an organization that purports to be an
advocate for those with respiratory disorders sells their reputation so
cheaply, but it is just as gratifying to see that the branches have rallied
to oppose their endorsement.  Thanks again, and please keep up the pressure.
jackmallory@webtv.net - 07 Dec 2004 15:33 GMT
They  w i l l   give you your money back.
NorthShoreCEO - 06 Dec 2004 20:51 GMT
If you can provide links to any literature or to the manufacturer, I may be able to give you more information.  All I know is that the allergy/asthma associations, as well as the epa, frown upon anything with the word ion in it.  Ionizer, ion purifier, etc.  I'd be surprised to learn that a real medical association has endorsed or even approved anything with the word ion in it, and that's why I'd be interested in checking it out further for you.  

 "NorthShoreCEO" <NorthShoreCEO@aol.com> wrote in message
 news:Nm1td.453850$wV.280637@attbi_s54...
 Hi Pious,

 Ionizers are to be avoided if you have asthma, because they can make your
 condition worse.  Take a look at number 3 in their list of things to do to
 protect your lungs:

 http://www.aaaai.org/media/news_releases/2000/06/000608.html

 and if you read through this, you'll see why:

 http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/ozonegen.html

 Sorry - that's probably not what you wanted to hear, but if you have asthma,
 those ion purifiers (there's an oxymoron!) are bad news.

 So I've heard..

 Fortunately, I do not have asthma, although I am rather environmentally
 aware.  These units are apparently 'approved' by some sort of Asthma
 Associations.. are these claims and/or groups who are approving them, all
 bogus?

 Again, this unit is *not* an ozone generator, per se, although they do admit
 to trace amounts.. (which again quite a few electronic devices do)

 I knew I was treading in dangerous waters here in regards to this
 technology, thanks for the input, regardless. ;)
Mary - 06 Dec 2004 21:20 GMT
> Fortunately, I do not have asthma, although I am rather environmentally
> aware.  These units are apparently 'approved' by some sort of Asthma
> Associations.. are these claims and/or groups who are approving them, all
> bogus?

I just googled the brand and model number you gave, and at an average of
$350.00 a unit, I hope this thing at least does not harm you.

> Again, this unit is *not* an ozone generator, per se, although they do admit
> to trace amounts.. (which again quite a few electronic devices do)

> I knew I was treading in dangerous waters here in regards to this
> technology, thanks for the input, regardless. ;)

I don't think anyone here really cares what sort of filter you use as
long as you aren't having them to dinner. However--for your own
safety, you might check out how much ozone the thing generates.
It sounds like one might develop breathing problems from using
anything that generates ozone on a daily basis.
NorthShoreCEO - 06 Dec 2004 21:33 GMT
Pious, I just looked at the Sharp website, and while they give a lot of information, the first thing they hit you with is that the unit emits negative and positive ions into the air.  That's not good for the lungs, even without asthma.  

I couldn't find anything on a medical association approving it and would still be interested in any links you can post.

 Hey folks,

 I'm not an asthmatic, but my sister is, and I figure you guys are probably a
 leading authority on clean air.

 I have recently purchased a Sharp FP-N60CX  purifier (which may
 automatically make me an enemy, since apparently these units do produce
 subtle ozone).  It cleans the air well enough, but may be removing some
 moisture from my already dry environment.

 My question:  is it ok to use a humidifier along side such a device?  The
 documentation that came with this unit isn't very thorough.  I wouldn't plan
 on running it directly beside the purifier or anything, Im just not sure if
 there is any history of humidifier vs. modern negative ion purifiers.

 Thanks in advance.
j r - 06 Dec 2004 23:44 GMT
I have used humidifier with Ionic breeze, but prefer Oreck since you can
turn off ion feature.  Just don't have them close together.  you don't want
water inside air cleaner, as it can zap and kill it. (maybe most of the
newsgroup would want you to zap and kill it.)
> Hey folks,
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Thanks in advance.
beamish - 07 Dec 2004 13:21 GMT
Hello, Concerning the humidity for myself between 35% and 45% seems optimal.
I do not use a humidifier I am able to keep my living quarters within my
optimal range.  I use a air purifier, not all the time, to remove vapors.
Vapors of any kind have a negitive effect to different degrees according to
the type of vapor. Bread baking to auto exhaust. For your sister experiment
to find the best set up.
Take Care.
beamish.
> Hey folks,
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Thanks in advance.
 
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