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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Asthma / September 2004Antibiotics helping!!!
I know a few people from Asthmastory.com post here, so I wanted to update. I was on the antibiotics for abotu 3 weeks. Started to feel better. I went on vacation and forgot to pack them! I, of course, got worse. WhenI came home (2 weeks) I started again. I am now on week 4 and am only on the flovent inhaler twice a day. My doctor wants me to stay on that until I finish the antibiotics. He gave me a script for addition doses since I started and stopped. So I will be on it now for 12 weeks. I was on Serevent day and night, and albuterol once or twice a day also. Now I am taking none of those. I can even climb a flight of stairs without having trouble. I was so sure it would not work for me. But so far, so good! I hope it keeps getting better. My doctor is really hoping Dr. Hahn will do more research and that this becomes more main stream. He is very excited about it, but is not a research doctor. At any rate, I am doing much better! Thanks to Jim for getting the word out about this! And Maureen for you support! Lisa > I know a few people from Asthmastory.com post here, so I wanted to > update. I was on the antibiotics for abotu 3 weeks. Started to feel [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Lisa Lisa, Isn't it amazing, when you get better, and you look back at how you were living, how bad off you really were? I am so glad for you. When you decided to try the antibiotics, what was it that made you think you could be helped? Did you have an infection before you asthma started, or was it something someone posted that pushed you to take matters into your own hands. Thank goodness, you have a cooperative doc! Joy Joy, I have had asthma for about 5 years. I remember it starting with a bout of bronchitis that I never went in for. The wheezing never went away after that. I had cats at the time and a bad allergy to them. So I figured that was it. Indeed my asthma did go away a year after the cats left. Btu since then other things have bothered me, birds, mold etc, that never did before. THis past winter my infant son brought home many illnesses from daycare and it seemed I caught every single one. That is when it started to get bad again to the point that I was on steroids, serevent and alburterol everyday even when not sick. So when I stumbled across asthmastory.com alot of the stories sounded like mine. So I figured why not give it a try. So far it seems to be helping. TOnight I am having trouble, so I get discouraged. But I am still better than I was 4 weeks ago. So time will tell. I am going to ask my doctor about treating my daughter also who has ahd asthma since she was 2 and is now 13. Lisa > > I know a few people from Asthmastory.com post here, so I wanted to > > update. I was on the antibiotics for abotu 3 weeks. Started to feel [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Joy Here's kind of an off-topic question, but we technical types can hardly help ourselves sometimes. Over the years I've read a lot of articles about antibiotics being incorporated into livestock feed since it helps meat animals gain weight faster. All the articles I've read have decried this practice since it increases the incidence of antibiotic resistance in microbes without providing any medical benefit. We've also heard on this newsgroup that steroids cause asthma patients to gain weight. Is the mechanism of livestock weight increase on antibiotics understood, and if so, does the mechanism apply to humans? That is, do folks on long-term antibiotics also get fat? If not, why do the cows get fat?  SignatureAlison Chaiken "From:" address above is valid. (650) 236-2231 [daytime] http://www.wsrcc.com/alison/ Q.: Why did the Governor allow Indian tribes to build a casino in San Pablo? A.: Because the prison guard's union wasn't interested. > Here's kind of an off-topic question, but we technical types can > hardly help ourselves sometimes. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > That is, do folks on long-term antibiotics also get fat? If not, why > do the cows get fat? I don't read on the subject, but I assume there must be some kind of growth stunting that occurs when animals get sick allot, and when they are no longer spending energy to recover their health, it is available for growth??? Speculation on my part. I'd start a new thread and perhaps someone else will know the answer. > Here's kind of an off-topic question, but we technical types can > hardly help ourselves sometimes. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > That is, do folks on long-term antibiotics also get fat? If not, why > do the cows get fat? Dear Alison, I would suggest yout question is not as far off topic as you might imagine. In the 50's I spent considerable time on cattle properties, one of my chores was delivering salt blocks for cattle to lick and strategically place them over miles of territory. I enquired as to what the actual function of those blocks was and was told "it kept the animals healthy, it stopped all kinds of problems" so was that. When I revisited some of these properties in the mid to late 80"s, salt was no longer being used, but the cattle were given antibiotics by various methods because the meat was more tender and presentable.(more saleable) One interesting other thing was that most of these cattle handlers had asthma, it was almost universal. Striking! If enquiries are made of mothers with sickly children, it commonly appears that those with no natrium diets are usually much worse than the others. And the trend is in the same direction, odd isn't it? I would be most interested if you chaps have found a similar kind of situation. I suggest there is a lot more to this than is apparent. By the way, antibiotics are now incorporated in almost every food animals diet. The more you learn the more incredible it all becomes, even the food handlers for these animals themselves become an interesting subject. Cheers, Merlin. > > Here's kind of an off-topic question, but we technical types can > > hardly help ourselves sometimes. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > That is, do folks on long-term antibiotics also get fat? If not, why > > do the cows get fat? Gee Alison, I guess some people can't help running off with their pet theory in the face of all evidence (I can actually come up with many more links to published data than I have already provided). My cat has asthma, but no one gave him antibiotics before we took him in, so is that evidence merlin is on the wrong track? Joy > My cat has asthma, but no one gave him antibiotics before we took > him in, so is that evidence merlin is on the wrong track? I wasn't inquiring about a link between antibiotics and asthma but between antibiotics and weight gain. If long-term antibiotic consumption is known to cause weight gain in livestock, does it also cause weight gain in people? I figured that Dr. Hahn's patients might know. I've never taken long-term antibiotics so I have no personal experience. SignatureAlison Chaiken "From:" address above is valid. (650) 236-2231 [daytime] http://www.wsrcc.com/alison/ Q.: Why did the Governor allow Indian tribes to build a casino in San Pablo? A.: Because the prison guard's union wasn't interested. > > My cat has asthma, but no one gave him antibiotics before we took > > him in, so is that evidence merlin is on the wrong track? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > know. I've never taken long-term antibiotics so I have no personal > experience. 3 months of antibiotics aren't quite the same as a lifetime of antibiotics. I actually lost weight, but I was low carbing so it isn't clear. I sure did gain weight on steroids though. > > My cat has asthma, but no one gave him antibiotics before we took > > him in, so is that evidence merlin is on the wrong track? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > know. I've never taken long-term antibiotics so I have no personal > experience. Hi Alison, sorry I wasn't clear with the last post, but my findings were that antibiotics are rarely applied to animals without other substances being present in a cocktail kind of method. (Growth accellerants etc.) I suspect referring to the materials simply as antibiotics may satisfy some enquiries. As you might be aware this otherwise may get into a very sensitive area. I would be interested in your findings further on this. You would obviously also be aware that the post about the asthmatic cat is a little on the ridiculous side, "if the cat has ever been fed cows milk it has likely ingested antibiotics"! (biological magnification and other points) It would also be apparent that antibiotics is a contributing factor to the problem and not the actual direct cause anyway. Further to that it is obvious that we are talking about numerous underlying causes producing the asthmatic effect some of which may be treatable with antibiotics, but should that be the first avenue of attack? It is also interesting to see that we are breaking the antibiotic grouping up somewhat here. Cheers, Merlin > > > My cat has asthma, but no one gave him antibiotics before we took > > > him in, so is that evidence merlin is on the wrong track? [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > grouping up somewhat here. > Cheers, Merlin How would a feral cat get cow's milk? How did people get asthma before antibiotics? > Joy, > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Lisa Lisa, I had asthma for 10 years and my story is pretty much like yours. I got pneumonia and the coughing never stopped. Finally, after trying about every allergy drug out there and coughing for 6 months, I was diagnosed with cough variant asthma; but things progressed downhill and my diagnosis was changed to Chronic Bronchitis 7 years later. I was pretty discouraged until I saw a post here by Jim Quinlan. I had spent a good deal of time at Medline, and I was aware of National Jewish's research into this area. However, NJH had only seen an improvement in their patients because they were only treating for 6 weeks, which is apparently not long enough. It all clicked into place for me and I started actively seeking antibiotics. Unfortunately, none of my doctors would cooperate. So I had to luck into my antibiotics when I finally got sick with so many conditions (including a bad breast infection, and who gets those when they aren't nursing!), they had to give me the antibiotics. I feel I own Jim Quinlan and Dr Hahn so much because I understand why I got better when I took the antibiotics even though I was not in the care of a doctor who would accept the research. I am not sure that I will ever be totally "cured". I did have a 6 month period when I used no meds, but then came the summer (my bad time of the year historically) and I have had to use my inhaler a few times. Still, I am grateful for the improvement. I expect that when winter comes, I will not need meds and I can hope that by next summer, whatever remolding occurred will have had more time to reverse, and I may never need another puff of albuterol. At least that is what I was told to expect - ongoing improvement. We can always hope! Anyway, I have a nice picture to share with you of Frances going by Jim's house! http://www.magoomedia.com/media/eye.wmv Isn't that neat! I had no idea the eye was so defined from the ground. Here we just get the rain. And the rain. And the rain. Joy I had spent a good deal of time at Medline, and I > was aware of National Jewish's research into this area. However, NJH had > only seen an improvement in their patients because they were only treating > for 6 weeks, which is apparently not long enough. Remember though, that National Jewish is treating using Clarithromycin (Biaxin), and six weeks isn't enough when you're using that particular antibiotic. We've seen with Dr. Mirkin's patients that it takes nine months to a year on Clarithromycin. I think treating people for six weeks is only going to result in having the infection come back even stronger. I think that may be why some studies are showing some asthmatics worsen when they're on antibiotics. > I am not sure that I will ever be totally "cured". I did have a 6 month > period when I used no meds, but then came the summer (my bad time of the > year historically) and I have had to use my inhaler a few times. It took Jim a full year to fully recover, so I wouldn't throw in the towel yet. Wait and see what next year brings. Still, I am > grateful for the improvement. I expect that when winter comes, I will not > need meds and I can hope that by next summer, whatever remolding occurred > will have had more time to reverse, and I may never need another puff of > albuterol. At least that is what I was told to expect - ongoing improvement. > We can always hope! I'm off meds about fifteen months now and I still feel I'm improving, so it wouldn't surprise me if the next year for you is even better than this year has been. > I had spent a good deal of time at Medline, and I > > was aware of National Jewish's research into this area. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > improving, so it wouldn't surprise me if the next year for you is > even better than this year has been. Maureen, Did you see this? I could have had this bug. We'll never know now. http://www.healthandage.com/Home/gc=25!l=1!gid1=6177 Joy > Maureen, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Joy I haven't seen that, but I've seen studies that are now suggesting COPD in some cases may also be related to bacteria. There have also been studies done where low dose, long term dosages of Erithromycin have reduced the common cold in patients with COPD significantly. I just looked the study up again and want to quote the conclusion: "In this study, the frequency of the COPD exacerbations and hospitalization due to the exacerbations were lowered in the control group to 22 to 0%, respectively, when erythromycin was used in COPD patients. This beneficial significance of lowering the frequency of an exacerbation and its severity may overwhelm the serious theoretical risk that could be associated with the intervention being studied if erythromycin therapy is used solely in patients with moderate-to-severe COPD on whom exacerbations may have a significant impact on their functional capacities and their lives in general. In conclusion, our findings suggest that not only the frequency and risk of exacerbations, but also their severity, can be lowered if sustained low-dose erythromycin therapy is used in COPD patients. However, this intervention should be restricted to patients who are at high risk for exacerbations of COPD because of the potential risk for the emergence of erythromycin-resistant pathogens." The study can be viewed here: http://www.chestjournal.org/cgi/content/full/120/3/730#B24 One question as to why you've cited that particular blurb, Joy? You weren't a smoker, were you? (although some studies indicate the incidence in non-smokers versus smokers with COPD is the same) > > Maureen, > > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > the incidence in non-smokers versus smokers with COPD is the > same) No, I wasn't a smoker. At the time, my internet searches revealed I had almost no chance of having Chronic Bronchitis as a nonsmoker. And that added to my contention that I didn't have Chronic Bronchitis when I was labeled with it. But clearly, I had more than regular asthma. I see posts from others who said they coughed as I did, and whose life was so impacted by asthma (or whatever), but I have never met anyone. I felt I was in some kind of grey area you could say. That is more in line with what my searches recently reveal - that there is an asthma/copd continuum. Since we know that some asthma can be caused by pathogens, I thought it significant that some COPD is also caused by pathogens as this article related. That is interesting that there is evidence that the incidence in non-smokers versus smokers with COPD is the same. I did read one article when I was actively looking a few years back that stated there had been a big increase in Chronic Bronchitis in young women non-smokers (don't ask me to find that). Joy > I haven't seen that, but I've seen studies that are now > suggesting COPD in some cases may also be related to bacteria. > There have also been studies done where low dose, long term > dosages of Erithromycin have reduced the common cold in patients > with COPD significantly. I just looked the study up again and > want to quote the conclusion: People who smoke do have structural dfferences in their lungs that make it harder to fight infections and so have a lot more of them and have more colonization. It has long been known that "bronchitis" in a non-smoker is hardly ever from bacteria whereas in smokers it often is. It certainly is plausible that the frequent infections and/or chronic colonization contributes to emphysema, however, I think in this case it will turn out that the emphysema predisposes to the infections, at least initially, rather than the other way around (but then may get into a viscious circle where they worsen each other). -- 00doc > Maureen, > > Did you see this? I could have had this bug. We'll never know now. > > http://www.healthandage.com/Home/gc=25!l=1!gid1=6177 I doubt it. Pneumocystis is either a fungi or protozoan (I forget where the debate is leaning these days - but it is not a bacterium as the article states) that is common in lungs and the environment. Usually it is only found to be a clinical problem is people with severely depressed immume function. I can imagine that someone with a significant smoking history may have done enough mechanical damage to the tissues that they have some issues with colonization, however, I would expect that people with enough architectural damage to render them that immunocompromise wouldn't just get better when treated - they would still have the original data. Also, as far as I know it wouldn't be susceptible to macrolide antibiotics (like erythromycin, clarithromycin, and azithromycin). Signature00doc > > Maureen, > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > be susceptible to macrolide antibiotics (like erythromycin, > clarithromycin, and azithromycin). So I still don't know what I had or why I had so much coughing. I suppose it is immaterial anyway. Joy > So I still don't know what I had or why I had so much coughing. I > suppose it is immaterial anyway. Why don't you think it was mycoplasma or some similar bug? > > So I still don't know what I had or why I had so much > coughing. I > > suppose it is immaterial anyway. > > Why don't you think it was mycoplasma or some similar bug? Because I had so much coughing and because I had my diagnosis changed to Chronic Bronchitis. >>> So I still don't know what I had or why I had so much >> coughing. I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Because I had so much coughing and because I had my diagnosis changed > to Chronic Bronchitis. In normal adults at least 25% of infectious coughs lasting more than 3 weeks are from pertussis (a.k.a. whooping cough, which is also treated with macrolides and was called "the 100 days cough" by the Chinese) and about another 25% are from other "atypical" infections like mycoplasma. So I am not sure the dx of chronic bronchitis necessarily means that it wasn't one of those although in smokers it is often from gram negative "typical" bacteria. I agree that in the absence of smoking, bronchiectasis, CF, or similar problems that the "chronic bronchitis" diagnosis was probably a turkey. Unfortunately, many docs, especially older ones, still use the term interchangably with asthma. Signature00doc Joy, over the years I've been diagnosed with bronchitis, asthmatic bronchitis, bronchial asthma, asthma, allergy-induced asthma, and once I was accused of being a hypochondriac. (I must have been good - I was actually faking sinus infections, bouts of bronchitis and pneumonia!) There's a doctor in town - a younger woman - who has the highest rate of asthmatic pediatric patients around - not because parents of asthmatic kids take their child to her because she's that good - but because to her, everything is asthma. To some of these doctors, everything is bronchitis. I think most doctors know the difference and hopefully take the time to explain it to their patients, but that's not always the case, as you know. > Joy, over the years I've been diagnosed with bronchitis, > asthmatic bronchitis, bronchial asthma, asthma, allergy-induced [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > hopefully take the time to explain it to their patients, but > that's not always the case, as you know. M I remember posting a similar list of my changing diagnosis as I moved and had different docs.When I first started reading about asthma, I decided the diagnosis depended on who your doctor was and/or where your doctor had attended medical school. : ) Joy > >>> So I still don't know what I had or why I had so much > >> coughing. I [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > turkey. Unfortunately, many docs, especially older ones, > still use the term interchangably with asthma. CBI, Well, the doctor was older. But he was also supposed to be the best in Atlanta (Pines if you want to look him up at Emory). And he stated all kinds of people in England have that condition. From what I have read, passing out in the presence of smoke was one of the reasons he settled on that diagnosis (you recall the number of Brits who died in their London killer fog/smog episodes). Still, I did doubt the diagnosis. I had triggers. Joy Lisa, that's fantastic news. I wish this would become more mainstream, too, but Dr. Hahn isn't getting the funding - National Jewish Medical and Research Center is, so until they start testing using his protocol, I'm afraid their reports indicating improvement (but not total resolution), is going to mean it will greatly delay the acceptance of this theory. Now that the asthmastory.com forum is closed, email me at NorthShoreCEO@aol.com and I'll give you another email address you can use to write me if you have any questions along the way. I'm still trying to support people when I can, but Jim had to close the forum due to trolls who posting obscenities there. He'll still post success stories he gets, however (he just added one, in fact), so you'll have to keep us posted. Thanks for the update! > I know a few people from Asthmastory.com post here, so I wanted to > update. I was on the antibiotics for abotu 3 weeks. Started to feel [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Lisa >My >doctor is really hoping Dr. Hahn will do more research and that this [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Lisa Are there certain types of asthma that respond to antibiotics?? I've been on them for the last month ( for a different reason, bad cold with throat infection) and I was curious, after all the talk about them, to see if I felt any marked improvement in my asthma. I didn't notice a change at all. Was that too short of a time? Life is uncertain - eat dessert first. Nancy 8=: ) Unless you're on the right antibiotic for the right period of time, you probably won't notice any difference, Nancy. I never did, and I was antibiotics four to six times a year. Dr. Hahns protocol is 500 mgs of Azithromycin (aka Zithromax or Zpak) for three days in a row, followed by weekly doses of 750 mgs, for six to twelve weeks. I was on them for twelve weeks and my 33 year bout with asthma ended over a year ago. Some doctors prescribe Clarithromycin (aka Biaxin), but patients have to take them for a much longer period of time (nine months to a year is the norm). > >My > >doctor is really hoping Dr. Hahn will do more research and that this [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Nancy > 8=: ) Oh - and to answer your question - yes, the only asthma that will respond is asthma that is caused by bacteria (mycoplasma or chlamydia pneumoniae). Researchers now feel that asthma is probably caused by different things, so antibiotic therapy won't help everyone, but will help some. > >My > >doctor is really hoping Dr. Hahn will do more research and that this [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Nancy > 8=: ) >Subject: Antibiotics helping!!! http://tinyurl.com/6z94f September 13, 2004 04:01 PM US Eastern Timezone APT Starts Human Trials of Aerosolized Hydroxychloroquine for Asthma TUCSON, Ariz.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Sept. 13, 2004--APT Pharmaceuticals is beginning clinical studies of aerosolized hydroxychloroquine (AHCQ) for treatment of respiratory diseases such as asthma, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), rhinitis and severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS). Hydroxychloroquine is best known as a treatment for malaria, but the drug is also classified as a slow-onset disease-modifying antirheumatic drug (DMARD) administered in tablet form as a first-line therapy for systemic lupus erythematosus, rheumatoid arthritis and sarcoidosis. APT's patented technology is based on targeted administration of amino quinolines to inflamed tissues. APT's proprietary aerosolized dosage forms and routes of administration achieve a faster onset of action and greater therapeutic effect than conventional oral therapy, and at substantially lower systemic doses. The company believes targeted delivery of hydroxychloroquine will be a highly effective and safer alternative to corticosteroid treatments. APT starts human safety and tolerability studies of AHCQ today in Australia and plans to begin Phase II studies in asthmatics in the first quarter of 2005. These studies will use the advanced AERx(R) pulmonary delivery system by Aradigm Corp. of Hayward, Calif., which is designed to maximize drug delivery in a patient-friendly format. "The goal of the first study is to establish safety parameters of this new route of administration and dosage form in order to set the stage for efficacy studies in diseases such as asthma, COPD and SARS," said APT President Gino Di Sciullo, Ph.D. "AHCQ offers the prospect of achieving antiviral and anti-inflammatory therapeutic effects within hours rather than the weeks to months needed in current oral dosing of hydroxychloroquine." APT has collaborated with researchers from leading academic centers in the United States and Canada to investigate the benefit of AHCQ on respiratory viral infections. "Laboratory studies have demonstrated that hydroxychloroquine inhibits both the transmission and the inflammatory responses of human airway cells to the common cold virus (human rhinovirus)," said B. Lauren Charous, M.D., director of the Allergy and Respiratory Care Center at Advanced Healthcare in Milwaukee, who is scientific adviser to APT. "We are encouraged that the levels needed to block the virus can be achieved by aerosolized delivery. The combined anti-inflammatory and antiviral activities of AHCQ have the potential to create a new product category for treatment of pulmonary inflammation." This summer, with funding from the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID), part of the National Institutes of Health, Dale Barnard, Ph.D., at the Institute for Anti-Viral Research at Utah State University in Logan, completed initial laboratory studies showing hydroxychloroquine inhibits SARS-associated corona virus (SARS-CoV) at similar low concentrations. These results with hydroxychloroquine were corroborated recently in findings reported by Marc Van Ranst, Ph.D., a virologist at the Rega Institute for Medical Research in Belgium. He and his colleagues found that chloroquine, a closely related drug, is also effective at inhibiting SARS-CoV in vitro. NIAID is supporting further studies by Dr. Barnard of hydroxychloroquine in an animal model. These studies are currently underway. Research Corporation Technologies (RCT) in Tucson, Ariz., (www.rctech.com) founded APT Pharmaceuticals (www.rctech.com/content/companies/apt.htm) to advance development of the AHCQ technology. As the primary investor, RCT funded early formulation work, efficacy studies, preclinical safety studies and continues its support of these clinical trials. U.S. Patent No. 6,572,858 and other pending worldwide patent applications protect the APT technology. Contacts RCT & APT Communications Jan McCoy Hutchinson, 520-748-4458 Who loves ya. Tom SignatureJesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking Most of us don't put too much stock in press releases - and that's what this is. > >Subject: Antibiotics helping!!! > [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore > DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking Interesting concept, and I hope that it works. I'll be watching for the studies. Thanks for the post. > >Subject: Antibiotics helping!!! > [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore > DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking |
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