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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Asthma / July 2004

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For my friend CBI

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Chefchk - 30 Jun 2004 00:44 GMT
Hiya -

I have a question for you.  I've been undergoing a series of tests to figure
out why I have severe swelling in my feet, ankles and now legs.  It's been
going on for about 3 weeks.  The dr has ruled out heart, kidney, liver, and the
duplex test was negative.  I'm about to undergo a CAT scan to find out if
anything is blocking the circulation.  I can't have any of the tests with
contrast because I'm allergic to the dye.

My question for you is this, he is saying that if these tests are negative, he
will do other tests, but he was also thinking pulmonary.  He said that the
combination of being overweight and having asthma for so long could possibly
cause this.

My question for you is this, have you heard of this before??  I'm stumped.  I
have never, ever had a problem with swelling in my feet.  I was overweight and
asthmatic when I was standing in a hot kitchen 14 hours a day and my feet didnt
swell.  It just strikes me as odd, that all of a sudden, out of nowhere, my
feet can start swelling and get worse and worse.  I keep my feet up all day
like Im freakin 85 years old, and cut salt, but nothing helps.  I can't fit in
a single pair of shoes.  It went from my feet, to ankles and now to calves.
I'm on 40mgs of lasix, which is something I have never taken, and its like I'm
not taking anything.

Any ideas you have would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks in advance.

Life is uncertain - eat dessert first.
Nancy
8=: )
PENMART01 - 30 Jun 2004 01:09 GMT
>(Chefchk) writes:
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
>Any ideas you have would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks in advance.

Sounds like edema.  Have you taken courses of prednisone (other steroids too),
are you still?  Eventually prednisone will mess up your lymphatic system
(etc.).  Do not take any more prednisone, ever.

Keep your feet elevated as much as possible.  Do not wear any thing binding on
your feet/legs, don't even wear socks  Do not just sit in a chair or stand in
one place... between periods of foot elevation it's best to walk.  Keep the
skin on your feet and legs well lubricated to protect your skin (Aquaphor is
excellent).  Curb your salt intake, no cold cuts.  Eventually the swelling will
will lessen and the episodes will abate.  Good Luck.

---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
         ---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
                                *********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon          
````````````  
Chefchk - 30 Jun 2004 04:55 GMT
>Sounds like edema.  Have you taken courses of prednisone (other steroids
>too),
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
>Sheldon          

Thanks for your kind reply Sheldon.  

I have been taking prednisone for the last 8 years at varying doses.  I'm on
the lowest dose I've been on in a long time, 10mg a day.  Every time we try to
taper, I have an attack.  I do have an appt with a new pulmonary dr (my old and
wonderful doc moved out of state) to do a complete workup and try to change
that.

As for the other stuff, I've been doing it for the last few weeks, to no avail.
I can't wear anything binding on my feet because I can't wear shoes, so I dont
even try socks.  Most of my pants are not restrictive.  I have really cut down
on salt (and I'm not a cold cut fan anyway).  Walking is difficult - my legs
feel very heavy, like they are weighted and I can almost feel that excess
liquid sloshing around.

It's been a very frustrating couple of weeks! I just really find it hard to
believe that out of nowhere this can happen and get steadily worse and it not
be anything wrong.  I'm ready to chop em off and get bionic feet at this point,
LOL.

Thanks again.

Life is uncertain - eat dessert first.
Nancy
8=: )
PENMART01 - 30 Jun 2004 13:44 GMT
>(Chefchk)
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>wonderful doc moved out of state) to do a complete workup and try to change
>that.

Very likely Asthma is not the underlying cause of your attacks, but merely an
ancillary complication.  You probably have COPD, which also causes Asthma-like
symptoms to occur sporadically.  Your airways are inflamed and excessive mucous
is being produced, which hinders your ablity to breathe, which in turn triggers
Asthma-like bronchial spasms... true Asmatics do not have inflamed airways, and
that is what the prednisone is supposed to be treating, but it really is only a
temporary cover-up type fix and does absolutely nothing to treat the root
cause.  You really need to get off the prednisone (STAT) and instead treat your
COPD; there are other less diblitating meds to combat bronchial inflamation
(Flovent works well), you need to treat any episodes of bronchitis immediately
with antibiotics (you likely have Chronic Bronchitis too, almost always
accompanies COPD), and you probably need to be treated with mucous thinners
(nebulized mucolytitcs such as Mucomyst work best).  Again, stay away from the
prednisone, *it WILL kill you*... stay far, far away from any doctor who
insists on prescribing it.  Many Pulmos tend to misdiagnos Asthma or more
likely prefer to label patients with Asthma instead of COPD; the patient has
far more complications due to mistreatment and they [MDs] make far more money,
it's as simple as that.

---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
         ---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
                                *********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon          
````````````  
Chefchk - 30 Jun 2004 23:16 GMT
Hey -

I got the results from the preliminary blood work.  The doc gave me a D/dimer
(I might be wrong with the name) blood test that is being used to rule out
blood clots.  Mine came back positive, so it is likely but not totally sure
that I have one in my pelvis, because the leg duplex was negative.

Sheldon, you have given me a lot to think about.  I am shocked to find out that
it's possible that I'm not an asthmatic - I've been one (I thought) since I was
3.  Can COPD start out as asthma and develop into COPD?  As for the bronchitis,
I'm not sick with chest colds very often, surprisingly, though if I do get
sick, thats where it goes.  If I get 1 bad one a year, thats a lot.

I'm with you on the prednisone, I'd like to get off of it, get some of this
excess weight off of me (though I don't blame it totally on the pred) and get
my hair back, besides stopping my bones from turning to dust.  As I said, I
have an appt with a new pulmonary doc on the 14th, and that will be my first
priority.

Thanks so much for all of your insightful feedback, I appreciate it.

Life is uncertain - eat dessert first.
Nancy
8=: )
PENMART01 - 30 Jun 2004 23:47 GMT
>Sheldon, you have given me a lot to think about.  I am shocked to find out
>that
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>Life is uncertain - eat dessert first.
>Nancy

Let's see what the new doc says... go with a written list of questions... good
luck.

---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
         ---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
                                *********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon          
````````````  
SimonDS - 01 Jul 2004 19:02 GMT
firstly if you are overweight and a big person anyway 40mg of lasix may not
be enough. it is common to use 120mg morning and 80mg midday.
You may even need IV lasix for a few days. But you say your heart is okay so
why use lasix anyway? Odema of the lower limbs and poor breathing with white
frothy sputum is caused by heart failure. It can happen with COPD. Basically
the blood flow through the lungs is restictive, back pressure to the heart
and rest of circulation, poor venous return, fluid in lower extremities.
(basically) Asthma will not cause this. The sputum although white is usually
thick and stringy.
Secondly the clot in you pelvis will cause oedema of the lower limbs and not
the asthma. The clot will prevent venous return and back presure will cause
fluid to be forced into the tissues. You need a 'blood thinning' agent such
as Warfarin and/or Clexane (UK names)
Thirdly COPD and Asthma are different and blood work and vitalograph can
often tell the difference plus your symptoms. COPD is as it's name says
CHRONIC obstructive pulmonary disease. It is usually permanant damage to the
lung tissue and treatment is only to relieve the symptoms. COPD is
conditions like Emphasema and bronchitis. It is usually made worse by
infection and occurs in persons in their late 40's+ who smoke (hence the
damage)
Asthma is different as it is often has identifiable triggers such as
allergens, cold air or exercise and the presence of Eleophiles (i spelt that
wrong i know) in the blood plus a vitalograph reverseabilty test are good
indicators.
Despite these distinctions, COPD is often misdiagnosed, and persons with
COPD are treated instead for asthma.In fact, a survey of 75 primary care
physicians in the USA revealed that they prescribe similar medications for
COPD and asthma even though the appropriate treatments differ

Permanent Prednisolone is not the way for Asthma. Oral Steroids should only
be needed for a short time until the inflammation in the bronchus subsides
in an acute attack. If you have asthma and need steroids all the time you
are either in contact with an allergen constantly, need different medication
or  are misdiagnosed!

May I suggest you do some reading on the subject of COPD and Asthma and get
a venogram or doppler of the pelvis before the clot breaks up and enters
your heart and lungs causing SERIOUS problems or death. It needs sorting
NOW.

Your being overweight will also restrict blood flow causing clots. Lack of
exercise will also cause it.

Let us know how you get on, if you legs are that swollen suddenly  with
shortness of breath you need investigation in hospital.

Simon

> >Sheldon, you have given me a lot to think about.  I am shocked to find out
> >that
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Sheldon
> ````````````
CBI - 04 Jul 2004 05:00 GMT
> Hiya -
>
> I have a question for you.  I've been undergoing a series of tests to
> figure out why I have severe swelling in my feet, ankles
and now
> legs.  It's been going on for about 3 weeks.  The dr has
ruled out
> heart, kidney, liver, and the duplex test was negative.
I'm about to
> undergo a CAT scan to find out if anything is blocking the
> circulation.  I can't have any of the tests with contrast
because I'm
> allergic to the dye.
>
> My question for you is this, he is saying that if these tests are
> negative, he will do other tests, but he was also thinking
pulmonary.
> He said that the combination of being overweight and
having asthma
> for so long could possibly cause this.
>
> My question for you is this, have you heard of this before??  I'm
> stumped.  I have never, ever had a problem with swelling
in my feet.
> I was overweight and asthmatic when I was standing in a
hot kitchen
> 14 hours a day and my feet didnt swell.  It just strikes
me as odd,
> that all of a sudden, out of nowhere, my feet can start
swelling and
> get worse and worse.  I keep my feet up all day like Im
freakin 85
> years old, and cut salt, but nothing helps.  I can't fit
in a single
> pair of shoes.  It went from my feet, to ankles and now to calves.
> I'm on 40mgs of lasix, which is something I have never taken, and its
> like I'm not taking anything.
>
> Any ideas you have would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks in advance.

During the week I mostly access this group from google. It
seems that some people have not been archiving their
responses so I was getting a conversation that made no
sense. Now that I can read the whole thing I must say that
you have gotten some interesting advice. The nicest thing I
can say about Sheldon's post about asthma/COPD/prednisone is
that it is incoherent. If your renal function and cardiac
output (heart) are normal 40mg of Lasix should be plenty.
Advising a dose of 120mg based on body weight would only
make sense if you were three times larger than a normally
large individual.

In the normal course of circulation some fluid leaks out as
the blood passes from high pressure arteries across the
capillary bed and into the low pressure veins. The excess is
taken up into the lymph channels and eventually returned to
the blood circulation. So, generally speaking, there are
three things that can increase the swelling (edema):

1) Increased leakiness of the blood vessels leading to more
fluid escaping than can be returned through the lymph
system.

2) Increased pressure in the veins causing more fluid to
leak out driven byt he extra pressure.

3) Obstruction of the lymph channnels.

The first and third are not common causes of both legs
swelling in an ambulatory patient. Lymph channel obstruction
usually happens after surgery (commonly after surgery for
breast cancer in the arm on the same side) or some other
insult. Increased leakiness at the arterial capillary
junction is usually caused by systemic problems such as
anaphylaxis, infection, burns, and surgery/trauma.

The second can come from an obstruction in the veins, such
as from a blood clot or an intra-abdominal mass (like a
pregnant uterus) compressing the veins. It can also come
from the heart getting backed up by not being able to pump
out all the blood that is comming in. The veins return to
the right side of the heart which pumps the blood to the
lungs then to the left so the leg swelling is technically
caused by right heart failure when edema is seen. However,
the most common cause of right heart failure is left heart
failure. Most of the test we have to check the heart are
much better at looking at the left side of the heart so this
is probably what was checked. Severe lung disease,
especially if it is accompanied by low oxygen levels, can
cause right heart failure. If the daytime readings do not
look to bad (when it is eventually checked by the pulm) then
a sleep study to look for sleep apnea may be a good idea to
make sure the levels are not dropping at night.

The CT of the abdomen (I assume it is of the abdomen and
pelvis) is to check for blockages and things compressing the
veins. It sounds like you were already checked for other
causes of increased fluid volume like liver and kidney
disease. Many medications, especially NSAIDs like
Motrin/Advil/Aleve, etc can do it so a review of the med
list would be helpful. The D-dimer test is a sensitive test
for blood clots meaning that it rarely misses them.
Unfortunately, while a negative test would have been
reassuring, the positive test means only the need for more
testing. One thing I'm sure the pulmonologist will order is
a VQ scan of the lungs to look for clots there. Being heavy
also increased the venous pressure via pressure on the
abdomen and age and a history of a lot of standing can cause
the valves that keep the blood going in the right direction
as the muscles "milk"
it by contracting to become leaky and the blood to back up.

The difference between asthma and COPD is that asthma is
reversible by definition and also is an inflammatory
condition. COPD is classically described as a fixed defect
and is not classically associated with inflammation (a lot
of caveates here). In reality many people with COPD do have
some reverisbility and so will respond to inhaled dilators
and the flares are associated with inflammation and will
respond to steroids (but the chronic phase is not and so
will not). COPD is rare in children (other than premies and
kids with CF) so if you have had wheezing since early
chilhood it is almost certainly asthma. If x-rays or CT
imaging of the lungs suggests emphysematous changes (and
maybe even if not) then looking for causes of COPD, which I
agree can mimic asthma, like alpha one anti-trypsin
deficiency and CF (which can have a broad spectrum of
presentations) may be worthwhile.

I agree that prednisone can have many serious side effects,
including fluid retention, but if you need it to breath then
not taking it can kill you. Also if you have been on it
chronically then stopping it too quickly can cause a
deficiency that can also be serious. Mucomyst
(acetylcysteine) is a mucolytic that was once used a good
bit but has largely been abandoned in favor of guaifenisen
due to its tendancy to trigger bronchoconstriction - a
rather unfortunate side effect considering the target
population. I agree that often docs will use the word asthma
when they mean COPD because it is more familiar to most
patients. I think it has more to do with imprecision in
choice of words than misdiagnosis.

While yuo are trying to find a treatable cause, the
treatment of the edema is mostly leg elevation, compression
stockings, and avoidance of salt and medicines that cause
fluid retention. There is some role for diuretics but, as I
said before, if your heart and kidneys are normal 40 mg
should be more than enough (no matter how big you are).
After a point it may do more harm than good.

Signature

CBI, MD

Chefchk - 04 Jul 2004 16:04 GMT
Hiya -

I'm sorry for all of your confusion and reading out of order!!

The docs have determined that it is most likely a blood clot in the abdomen or
pelvis. They can't be 100% sure, because they are too afraid to give me the CAT
scan with the dye, and the scan without the dye didn't show any other kind of
mass.  Four doctors conferred and because the swelling is equal in both legs,
the D-Dimer test was positive, and the swelling is slowly but steadily getting
worse, they really believe the clot is there, so they are treating me as such.

I am taking 160mg injections of Lovenox, and 5mg of Coumadin right now. Because
it is a holiday weekend,  I get the blood tested Monday (and then every day
thereafter until the injections stop) and they adjust the coumadin as
necessary.  I am having a home nurse come daily for the blood draw.  

I have 2 things I'd like your opinion on.  First, and you probably can't really
answer, but I'd like your take.  Roughly, ball park, assuming all this blood
thinning works and the clot eventually breaks up, how long before you see
improvement in the swelling?  I'm not looking for a magic date, I'd just like
an idea of when I should say, "Hey guys, I still can't wear any of my shoes,
whats up?!"  Just an opinion if you dont mind.

Second, I'm told that I have to avoid foods high in Vitamin K.  Thats easy
enough.  Because I dont see the doc until Monday, I've been reading up on the
net about what to avoid while taking Coumadin, and there are very conflicting
reports. Some say just avoid Vitamin K, others say Vitamins A, D, K & E, plus
caffeine .  Do you have an opinion ?

I have an appt with a new pulmonary doc on the 14th, so I am sure he will send
me through the whole battery of tests.  My original pulmonologist was awesome,
and she was very into research.  Unfortunately for me (but not asthmatics at
large) she went to Long Island Jewish hospital to solely work on research.
BUT, the good thing is, she trained this guy, so I have a good feeling.

Thanks so much for your input, I really appreciate it.  FYI, my blood is also
going to be tested by genetics people in an ongoing study at Montefiore in NY
to see if there are any genetic reasons why this happened.  This all started
(they think) because my cousin was hospitalized for ovarian cancer, and I spent
hours at the hospital with my aunt, in a chair for more than a week.  They said
that at my age, that shouldn't have happened, so they are checking it out.
Interesting side.  

Thanks again -

Life is uncertain - eat dessert first.
Nancy
8=: )
Ted Edwards - 04 Jul 2004 17:39 GMT

> Second, I'm told that I have to avoid foods high in Vitamin K.  Thats easy
> enough.  Because I dont see the doc until Monday, I've been reading up on the
> net about what to avoid while taking Coumadin, and there are very conflicting
> reports. Some say just avoid Vitamin K, others say Vitamins A, D, K & E, plus
> caffeine .  Do you have an opinion ?

I have been on Coumadin since 1995 due to episodal atrial fibrilation.
At first we had a hell of a time trying to stabilize my dosage.  In the
end it turned out to be a vitamin K problem.  You see, I tended to binge
on salad and then not have any green leafy veggies for several days.
You do NOT need to avoid vitamin K.  You DO need to be consistant.  We
now have a salad with supper every second day.  Since starting this
routine, there was a minor change in my dosage in September 2002 and
none since.  Consistancy is the key.  Avoidance is not neccessary.

Ted
CBI - 04 Jul 2004 22:00 GMT
> Hiya -
>
> I'm sorry for all of your confusion and reading out of order!!

It just made it hard to comment becasue things were being
mentione din posts that weren't appearing to me so it ws
obvious I wasn't getting the whole story.

> The docs have determined that it is most likely a blood clot in the
> abdomen or pelvis. They can't be 100% sure, because they
are too
> afraid to give me the CAT scan with the dye, and the scan
without the
> dye didn't show any other kind of mass.  Four doctors
conferred and
> because the swelling is equal in both legs, the D-Dimer
test was
> positive, and the swelling is slowly but steadily getting
worse, they
> really believe the clot is there, so they are treating me as such.

They could do an angiogram if they really want to know.
Trying the meds is one reasonable approach but it is
something to think about if you don't get better soon.

> I have 2 things I'd like your opinion on.  First, and you probably
> can't really answer, but I'd like your take.  Roughly,
ball park,
> assuming all this blood thinning works and the clot
eventually breaks
> up, how long before you see improvement in the swelling?
I'm not
> looking for a magic date, I'd just like an idea of when I
should say,
> "Hey guys, I still can't wear any of my shoes, whats up?!"
Just an
> opinion if you dont mind.

I would imagine it should start to help within a few weeks.
The edema may never completely resolve due to damage to the
veins ("post DVT syndrome").

> Second, I'm told that I have to avoid foods high in Vitamin K.  Thats
> easy enough.  Because I dont see the doc until Monday,
I've been
> reading up on the net about what to avoid while taking
Coumadin, and
> there are very conflicting reports. Some say just avoid
Vitamin K,
> others say Vitamins A, D, K & E, plus caffeine .  Do you
have an
> opinion ?

I've never heard of a problem with A, D, E, and caffeine and
coumadin. As for the vitamin K - it really is more improtant
to keep the vitamin K intake constant then to avoid it.
Whatever level you take in can be balanced by the counadin.
The real issues arise if you then change it. In real life
medication interactions, especially antibiotics, tend to be
much more of an issue.

> Thanks so much for your input, I really appreciate it.  FYI, my blood
> is also going to be tested by genetics people in an
ongoing study at
> Montefiore in NY to see if there are any genetic reasons
why this
> happened.

At least some of the tests they will do are pretty standard.
The other thing that can cause an unexplained blood clot is
cancer. Other than the routine screening tests that we do
the CT of the abdomen was probably a good enough screen but
you should have the "normal" tests done such as a mammogram,
pap smear, and colonoscopy if they are not up to date. Your
family history of ovarian cancer suggests that it may be
worthwhile to screen you for that as well.

> This all started (they think) because my cousin was
> hospitalized for ovarian cancer, and I spent hours at the
hospital
> with my aunt, in a chair for more than a week.  They said
that at my
> age, that shouldn't have happened, so they are checking it out.

Prolonged sitting can do it but I am always reluctant to
just chalk it up to that without looking eslwhere as well. I
have seen too many occassions where the person gave some
history prolonged sitting and fouind another cause anyway.

Signature

CBI, MD

SimonDS - 06 Jul 2004 00:07 GMT
> During the week I mostly access this group from google. It
> seems that some people have not been archiving their
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> make sense if you were three times larger than a normally
> large individual.

Or cardiac function is impeded and then it will need daily blood tests  to
monitor Sodium levels etc
normal sized persons often have more than 40mg, 80mg being common, 120mg in
some severe cases. In this case with the heart being normal 40mg seems to be
correct however.

Unless i have read straight passed it, you do not mention your breathing
being worse as is often the cause with heart failure and its associated
odema.
 
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