Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Asthma / July 2004
For my friend CBI
|
|
Thread rating:  |
Chefchk - 30 Jun 2004 00:44 GMT Hiya -
I have a question for you. I've been undergoing a series of tests to figure out why I have severe swelling in my feet, ankles and now legs. It's been going on for about 3 weeks. The dr has ruled out heart, kidney, liver, and the duplex test was negative. I'm about to undergo a CAT scan to find out if anything is blocking the circulation. I can't have any of the tests with contrast because I'm allergic to the dye.
My question for you is this, he is saying that if these tests are negative, he will do other tests, but he was also thinking pulmonary. He said that the combination of being overweight and having asthma for so long could possibly cause this.
My question for you is this, have you heard of this before?? I'm stumped. I have never, ever had a problem with swelling in my feet. I was overweight and asthmatic when I was standing in a hot kitchen 14 hours a day and my feet didnt swell. It just strikes me as odd, that all of a sudden, out of nowhere, my feet can start swelling and get worse and worse. I keep my feet up all day like Im freakin 85 years old, and cut salt, but nothing helps. I can't fit in a single pair of shoes. It went from my feet, to ankles and now to calves. I'm on 40mgs of lasix, which is something I have never taken, and its like I'm not taking anything.
Any ideas you have would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Life is uncertain - eat dessert first. Nancy 8=: )
PENMART01 - 30 Jun 2004 01:09 GMT >(Chefchk) writes: > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >Any ideas you have would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. Sounds like edema. Have you taken courses of prednisone (other steroids too), are you still? Eventually prednisone will mess up your lymphatic system (etc.). Do not take any more prednisone, ever.
Keep your feet elevated as much as possible. Do not wear any thing binding on your feet/legs, don't even wear socks Do not just sit in a chair or stand in one place... between periods of foot elevation it's best to walk. Keep the skin on your feet and legs well lubricated to protect your skin (Aquaphor is excellent). Curb your salt intake, no cold cuts. Eventually the swelling will will lessen and the episodes will abate. Good Luck.
---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =--- ---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =--- ********* "Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation." Sheldon ````````````
Chefchk - 30 Jun 2004 04:55 GMT >Sounds like edema. Have you taken courses of prednisone (other steroids >too), [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation." >Sheldon Thanks for your kind reply Sheldon.
I have been taking prednisone for the last 8 years at varying doses. I'm on the lowest dose I've been on in a long time, 10mg a day. Every time we try to taper, I have an attack. I do have an appt with a new pulmonary dr (my old and wonderful doc moved out of state) to do a complete workup and try to change that.
As for the other stuff, I've been doing it for the last few weeks, to no avail. I can't wear anything binding on my feet because I can't wear shoes, so I dont even try socks. Most of my pants are not restrictive. I have really cut down on salt (and I'm not a cold cut fan anyway). Walking is difficult - my legs feel very heavy, like they are weighted and I can almost feel that excess liquid sloshing around.
It's been a very frustrating couple of weeks! I just really find it hard to believe that out of nowhere this can happen and get steadily worse and it not be anything wrong. I'm ready to chop em off and get bionic feet at this point, LOL. Thanks again.
Life is uncertain - eat dessert first. Nancy 8=: )
PENMART01 - 30 Jun 2004 13:44 GMT >(Chefchk) > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >wonderful doc moved out of state) to do a complete workup and try to change >that. Very likely Asthma is not the underlying cause of your attacks, but merely an ancillary complication. You probably have COPD, which also causes Asthma-like symptoms to occur sporadically. Your airways are inflamed and excessive mucous is being produced, which hinders your ablity to breathe, which in turn triggers Asthma-like bronchial spasms... true Asmatics do not have inflamed airways, and that is what the prednisone is supposed to be treating, but it really is only a temporary cover-up type fix and does absolutely nothing to treat the root cause. You really need to get off the prednisone (STAT) and instead treat your COPD; there are other less diblitating meds to combat bronchial inflamation (Flovent works well), you need to treat any episodes of bronchitis immediately with antibiotics (you likely have Chronic Bronchitis too, almost always accompanies COPD), and you probably need to be treated with mucous thinners (nebulized mucolytitcs such as Mucomyst work best). Again, stay away from the prednisone, *it WILL kill you*... stay far, far away from any doctor who insists on prescribing it. Many Pulmos tend to misdiagnos Asthma or more likely prefer to label patients with Asthma instead of COPD; the patient has far more complications due to mistreatment and they [MDs] make far more money, it's as simple as that.
---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =--- ---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =--- ********* "Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation." Sheldon ````````````
Chefchk - 30 Jun 2004 23:16 GMT Hey -
I got the results from the preliminary blood work. The doc gave me a D/dimer (I might be wrong with the name) blood test that is being used to rule out blood clots. Mine came back positive, so it is likely but not totally sure that I have one in my pelvis, because the leg duplex was negative.
Sheldon, you have given me a lot to think about. I am shocked to find out that it's possible that I'm not an asthmatic - I've been one (I thought) since I was 3. Can COPD start out as asthma and develop into COPD? As for the bronchitis, I'm not sick with chest colds very often, surprisingly, though if I do get sick, thats where it goes. If I get 1 bad one a year, thats a lot.
I'm with you on the prednisone, I'd like to get off of it, get some of this excess weight off of me (though I don't blame it totally on the pred) and get my hair back, besides stopping my bones from turning to dust. As I said, I have an appt with a new pulmonary doc on the 14th, and that will be my first priority.
Thanks so much for all of your insightful feedback, I appreciate it.
Life is uncertain - eat dessert first. Nancy 8=: )
PENMART01 - 30 Jun 2004 23:47 GMT >Sheldon, you have given me a lot to think about. I am shocked to find out >that [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >Life is uncertain - eat dessert first. >Nancy Let's see what the new doc says... go with a written list of questions... good luck.
---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =--- ---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =--- ********* "Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation." Sheldon ````````````
SimonDS - 01 Jul 2004 19:02 GMT firstly if you are overweight and a big person anyway 40mg of lasix may not be enough. it is common to use 120mg morning and 80mg midday. You may even need IV lasix for a few days. But you say your heart is okay so why use lasix anyway? Odema of the lower limbs and poor breathing with white frothy sputum is caused by heart failure. It can happen with COPD. Basically the blood flow through the lungs is restictive, back pressure to the heart and rest of circulation, poor venous return, fluid in lower extremities. (basically) Asthma will not cause this. The sputum although white is usually thick and stringy. Secondly the clot in you pelvis will cause oedema of the lower limbs and not the asthma. The clot will prevent venous return and back presure will cause fluid to be forced into the tissues. You need a 'blood thinning' agent such as Warfarin and/or Clexane (UK names) Thirdly COPD and Asthma are different and blood work and vitalograph can often tell the difference plus your symptoms. COPD is as it's name says CHRONIC obstructive pulmonary disease. It is usually permanant damage to the lung tissue and treatment is only to relieve the symptoms. COPD is conditions like Emphasema and bronchitis. It is usually made worse by infection and occurs in persons in their late 40's+ who smoke (hence the damage) Asthma is different as it is often has identifiable triggers such as allergens, cold air or exercise and the presence of Eleophiles (i spelt that wrong i know) in the blood plus a vitalograph reverseabilty test are good indicators. Despite these distinctions, COPD is often misdiagnosed, and persons with COPD are treated instead for asthma.In fact, a survey of 75 primary care physicians in the USA revealed that they prescribe similar medications for COPD and asthma even though the appropriate treatments differ
Permanent Prednisolone is not the way for Asthma. Oral Steroids should only be needed for a short time until the inflammation in the bronchus subsides in an acute attack. If you have asthma and need steroids all the time you are either in contact with an allergen constantly, need different medication or are misdiagnosed!
May I suggest you do some reading on the subject of COPD and Asthma and get a venogram or doppler of the pelvis before the clot breaks up and enters your heart and lungs causing SERIOUS problems or death. It needs sorting NOW.
Your being overweight will also restrict blood flow causing clots. Lack of exercise will also cause it.
Let us know how you get on, if you legs are that swollen suddenly with shortness of breath you need investigation in hospital.
Simon
> >Sheldon, you have given me a lot to think about. I am shocked to find out > >that [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Sheldon > ```````````` CBI - 04 Jul 2004 05:00 GMT > Hiya - > > I have a question for you. I've been undergoing a series of tests to > figure out why I have severe swelling in my feet, ankles and now
> legs. It's been going on for about 3 weeks. The dr has ruled out
> heart, kidney, liver, and the duplex test was negative. I'm about to
> undergo a CAT scan to find out if anything is blocking the > circulation. I can't have any of the tests with contrast because I'm
> allergic to the dye. > > My question for you is this, he is saying that if these tests are > negative, he will do other tests, but he was also thinking pulmonary.
> He said that the combination of being overweight and having asthma
> for so long could possibly cause this. > > My question for you is this, have you heard of this before?? I'm > stumped. I have never, ever had a problem with swelling in my feet.
> I was overweight and asthmatic when I was standing in a hot kitchen
> 14 hours a day and my feet didnt swell. It just strikes me as odd,
> that all of a sudden, out of nowhere, my feet can start swelling and
> get worse and worse. I keep my feet up all day like Im freakin 85
> years old, and cut salt, but nothing helps. I can't fit in a single
> pair of shoes. It went from my feet, to ankles and now to calves. > I'm on 40mgs of lasix, which is something I have never taken, and its > like I'm not taking anything. > > Any ideas you have would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. During the week I mostly access this group from google. It seems that some people have not been archiving their responses so I was getting a conversation that made no sense. Now that I can read the whole thing I must say that you have gotten some interesting advice. The nicest thing I can say about Sheldon's post about asthma/COPD/prednisone is that it is incoherent. If your renal function and cardiac output (heart) are normal 40mg of Lasix should be plenty. Advising a dose of 120mg based on body weight would only make sense if you were three times larger than a normally large individual.
In the normal course of circulation some fluid leaks out as the blood passes from high pressure arteries across the capillary bed and into the low pressure veins. The excess is taken up into the lymph channels and eventually returned to the blood circulation. So, generally speaking, there are three things that can increase the swelling (edema):
1) Increased leakiness of the blood vessels leading to more fluid escaping than can be returned through the lymph system.
2) Increased pressure in the veins causing more fluid to leak out driven byt he extra pressure.
3) Obstruction of the lymph channnels.
The first and third are not common causes of both legs swelling in an ambulatory patient. Lymph channel obstruction usually happens after surgery (commonly after surgery for breast cancer in the arm on the same side) or some other insult. Increased leakiness at the arterial capillary junction is usually caused by systemic problems such as anaphylaxis, infection, burns, and surgery/trauma.
The second can come from an obstruction in the veins, such as from a blood clot or an intra-abdominal mass (like a pregnant uterus) compressing the veins. It can also come from the heart getting backed up by not being able to pump out all the blood that is comming in. The veins return to the right side of the heart which pumps the blood to the lungs then to the left so the leg swelling is technically caused by right heart failure when edema is seen. However, the most common cause of right heart failure is left heart failure. Most of the test we have to check the heart are much better at looking at the left side of the heart so this is probably what was checked. Severe lung disease, especially if it is accompanied by low oxygen levels, can cause right heart failure. If the daytime readings do not look to bad (when it is eventually checked by the pulm) then a sleep study to look for sleep apnea may be a good idea to make sure the levels are not dropping at night.
The CT of the abdomen (I assume it is of the abdomen and pelvis) is to check for blockages and things compressing the veins. It sounds like you were already checked for other causes of increased fluid volume like liver and kidney disease. Many medications, especially NSAIDs like Motrin/Advil/Aleve, etc can do it so a review of the med list would be helpful. The D-dimer test is a sensitive test for blood clots meaning that it rarely misses them. Unfortunately, while a negative test would have been reassuring, the positive test means only the need for more testing. One thing I'm sure the pulmonologist will order is a VQ scan of the lungs to look for clots there. Being heavy also increased the venous pressure via pressure on the abdomen and age and a history of a lot of standing can cause the valves that keep the blood going in the right direction as the muscles "milk" it by contracting to become leaky and the blood to back up.
The difference between asthma and COPD is that asthma is reversible by definition and also is an inflammatory condition. COPD is classically described as a fixed defect and is not classically associated with inflammation (a lot of caveates here). In reality many people with COPD do have some reverisbility and so will respond to inhaled dilators and the flares are associated with inflammation and will respond to steroids (but the chronic phase is not and so will not). COPD is rare in children (other than premies and kids with CF) so if you have had wheezing since early chilhood it is almost certainly asthma. If x-rays or CT imaging of the lungs suggests emphysematous changes (and maybe even if not) then looking for causes of COPD, which I agree can mimic asthma, like alpha one anti-trypsin deficiency and CF (which can have a broad spectrum of presentations) may be worthwhile.
I agree that prednisone can have many serious side effects, including fluid retention, but if you need it to breath then not taking it can kill you. Also if you have been on it chronically then stopping it too quickly can cause a deficiency that can also be serious. Mucomyst (acetylcysteine) is a mucolytic that was once used a good bit but has largely been abandoned in favor of guaifenisen due to its tendancy to trigger bronchoconstriction - a rather unfortunate side effect considering the target population. I agree that often docs will use the word asthma when they mean COPD because it is more familiar to most patients. I think it has more to do with imprecision in choice of words than misdiagnosis.
While yuo are trying to find a treatable cause, the treatment of the edema is mostly leg elevation, compression stockings, and avoidance of salt and medicines that cause fluid retention. There is some role for diuretics but, as I said before, if your heart and kidneys are normal 40 mg should be more than enough (no matter how big you are). After a point it may do more harm than good.
 Signature CBI, MD
Chefchk - 04 Jul 2004 16:04 GMT Hiya -
I'm sorry for all of your confusion and reading out of order!!
The docs have determined that it is most likely a blood clot in the abdomen or pelvis. They can't be 100% sure, because they are too afraid to give me the CAT scan with the dye, and the scan without the dye didn't show any other kind of mass. Four doctors conferred and because the swelling is equal in both legs, the D-Dimer test was positive, and the swelling is slowly but steadily getting worse, they really believe the clot is there, so they are treating me as such.
I am taking 160mg injections of Lovenox, and 5mg of Coumadin right now. Because it is a holiday weekend, I get the blood tested Monday (and then every day thereafter until the injections stop) and they adjust the coumadin as necessary. I am having a home nurse come daily for the blood draw.
I have 2 things I'd like your opinion on. First, and you probably can't really answer, but I'd like your take. Roughly, ball park, assuming all this blood thinning works and the clot eventually breaks up, how long before you see improvement in the swelling? I'm not looking for a magic date, I'd just like an idea of when I should say, "Hey guys, I still can't wear any of my shoes, whats up?!" Just an opinion if you dont mind.
Second, I'm told that I have to avoid foods high in Vitamin K. Thats easy enough. Because I dont see the doc until Monday, I've been reading up on the net about what to avoid while taking Coumadin, and there are very conflicting reports. Some say just avoid Vitamin K, others say Vitamins A, D, K & E, plus caffeine . Do you have an opinion ?
I have an appt with a new pulmonary doc on the 14th, so I am sure he will send me through the whole battery of tests. My original pulmonologist was awesome, and she was very into research. Unfortunately for me (but not asthmatics at large) she went to Long Island Jewish hospital to solely work on research. BUT, the good thing is, she trained this guy, so I have a good feeling.
Thanks so much for your input, I really appreciate it. FYI, my blood is also going to be tested by genetics people in an ongoing study at Montefiore in NY to see if there are any genetic reasons why this happened. This all started (they think) because my cousin was hospitalized for ovarian cancer, and I spent hours at the hospital with my aunt, in a chair for more than a week. They said that at my age, that shouldn't have happened, so they are checking it out. Interesting side.
Thanks again -
Life is uncertain - eat dessert first. Nancy 8=: )
Ted Edwards - 04 Jul 2004 17:39 GMT
> Second, I'm told that I have to avoid foods high in Vitamin K. Thats easy > enough. Because I dont see the doc until Monday, I've been reading up on the > net about what to avoid while taking Coumadin, and there are very conflicting > reports. Some say just avoid Vitamin K, others say Vitamins A, D, K & E, plus > caffeine . Do you have an opinion ? I have been on Coumadin since 1995 due to episodal atrial fibrilation. At first we had a hell of a time trying to stabilize my dosage. In the end it turned out to be a vitamin K problem. You see, I tended to binge on salad and then not have any green leafy veggies for several days. You do NOT need to avoid vitamin K. You DO need to be consistant. We now have a salad with supper every second day. Since starting this routine, there was a minor change in my dosage in September 2002 and none since. Consistancy is the key. Avoidance is not neccessary.
Ted
CBI - 04 Jul 2004 22:00 GMT > Hiya - > > I'm sorry for all of your confusion and reading out of order!! It just made it hard to comment becasue things were being mentione din posts that weren't appearing to me so it ws obvious I wasn't getting the whole story.
> The docs have determined that it is most likely a blood clot in the > abdomen or pelvis. They can't be 100% sure, because they are too
> afraid to give me the CAT scan with the dye, and the scan without the
> dye didn't show any other kind of mass. Four doctors conferred and
> because the swelling is equal in both legs, the D-Dimer test was
> positive, and the swelling is slowly but steadily getting worse, they
> really believe the clot is there, so they are treating me as such. They could do an angiogram if they really want to know. Trying the meds is one reasonable approach but it is something to think about if you don't get better soon.
> I have 2 things I'd like your opinion on. First, and you probably > can't really answer, but I'd like your take. Roughly, ball park,
> assuming all this blood thinning works and the clot eventually breaks
> up, how long before you see improvement in the swelling? I'm not
> looking for a magic date, I'd just like an idea of when I should say,
> "Hey guys, I still can't wear any of my shoes, whats up?!" Just an
> opinion if you dont mind. I would imagine it should start to help within a few weeks. The edema may never completely resolve due to damage to the veins ("post DVT syndrome").
> Second, I'm told that I have to avoid foods high in Vitamin K. Thats > easy enough. Because I dont see the doc until Monday, I've been
> reading up on the net about what to avoid while taking Coumadin, and
> there are very conflicting reports. Some say just avoid Vitamin K,
> others say Vitamins A, D, K & E, plus caffeine . Do you have an
> opinion ? I've never heard of a problem with A, D, E, and caffeine and coumadin. As for the vitamin K - it really is more improtant to keep the vitamin K intake constant then to avoid it. Whatever level you take in can be balanced by the counadin. The real issues arise if you then change it. In real life medication interactions, especially antibiotics, tend to be much more of an issue.
> Thanks so much for your input, I really appreciate it. FYI, my blood > is also going to be tested by genetics people in an ongoing study at
> Montefiore in NY to see if there are any genetic reasons why this
> happened. At least some of the tests they will do are pretty standard. The other thing that can cause an unexplained blood clot is cancer. Other than the routine screening tests that we do the CT of the abdomen was probably a good enough screen but you should have the "normal" tests done such as a mammogram, pap smear, and colonoscopy if they are not up to date. Your family history of ovarian cancer suggests that it may be worthwhile to screen you for that as well.
> This all started (they think) because my cousin was > hospitalized for ovarian cancer, and I spent hours at the hospital
> with my aunt, in a chair for more than a week. They said that at my
> age, that shouldn't have happened, so they are checking it out. Prolonged sitting can do it but I am always reluctant to just chalk it up to that without looking eslwhere as well. I have seen too many occassions where the person gave some history prolonged sitting and fouind another cause anyway.
 Signature CBI, MD
SimonDS - 06 Jul 2004 00:07 GMT > During the week I mostly access this group from google. It > seems that some people have not been archiving their [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > make sense if you were three times larger than a normally > large individual. Or cardiac function is impeded and then it will need daily blood tests to monitor Sodium levels etc normal sized persons often have more than 40mg, 80mg being common, 120mg in some severe cases. In this case with the heart being normal 40mg seems to be correct however.
Unless i have read straight passed it, you do not mention your breathing being worse as is often the cause with heart failure and its associated odema.
|
|
|