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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Asthma / February 2006

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Help -- question on air filters

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Healthwriter101 - 25 Jun 2004 19:16 GMT
Hi. I am writing an article for an inflight magazine about indoor air filters
like the Ionic Breeze. I would love to include the experience of someone who
has used such filter and their thoughts on the benefits of them and any advice
on selecting one.

Thanks!
Joe Mullich
www.joemullich.com
Joy - 25 Jun 2004 19:51 GMT
> Hi. I am writing an article for an inflight magazine about indoor air filters
> like the Ionic Breeze. I would love to include the experience of someone who
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Joe Mullich
> www.joemullich.com

Joe,

Hopefully, ARoberts will come in here and field your question.

In general, asthmatics seem to have trouble with Ozone cleaners. Do a search
for past posts on this newsgroup. And also at WebMd asthma board there are
many posts by unhappy consumers of the Ionic products and Dr Enright had
posted the research into this area several years ago. I think I read
somewhere there is a lawsuit by the Feds regarding advertising by companies
who claim their air cleaners will help asthma so see if you can come up with
the details.

Joy
Spicer - 24 Feb 2006 14:25 GMT
>> Hi. I am writing an article for an inflight magazine about indoor air
> filters
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>> Joe Mullich
>> www.joemullich.com


You could try http://ge-e.com. The product has featured on Oprah Winfrey
(clips on website) has lots of peer reviewed medical data, downloadable.
Unique in that it is 1.5 oz and wearable.  
Blues Ma - 25 Jun 2004 22:01 GMT
> Hi. I am writing an article for an inflight magazine about indoor air filters
> like the Ionic Breeze. I would love to include the experience of someone who
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Joe Mullich
> www.joemullich.com

Here's one opinion.
The ionic breeze is a piece of crap.? Someone gave me one and i gave it back.
Didn't do a thing for the real trouble makers at our house.
The hepa filters make a big difference if you get a good one and maintain it
properly.

Ma
?
?
ARoberts - 26 Jun 2004 15:40 GMT
> Hi. I am writing an article for an inflight magazine about indoor air filters
> like the Ionic Breeze. I would love to include the experience of someone who
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Joe Mullich
> www.joemullich.com

I know that Sharper Image (marketer of Ionic Breeze) spend lots of
advertising dollars in inflight magazines, so this probably isn't welcome
news.  Ionic Breeze and other ozone-producing air cleaners are not
recommended for anyone with a respiratory condition.  Ozone (O3) is
extremely reactive with airway epithelium and can cause permanent injury.
The EPA and various health organizations have warned against using such
devices, saying that ozone, in the concentrations needed to effectively
clean indoor air, is unsafe for humans and animals. The FDA has brought
actions against various manufacturers for specious claims
of the benefits of ozone-producing air cleaners.

A HEPA filter is far superior, both in effectiveness and safety.

From the EPA website:

"Ozone may also worsen chronic respiratory diseases such as asthma and
compromise the ability of the body to fight respiratory infections."

"Manufacturers and vendors of ozone devices often use misleading terms to
describe ozone. Terms such as "energized oxygen" or "pure air" suggest that
ozone is a healthy kind of oxygen.  Ozone is a toxic gas with vastly
different chemical and toxicological properties from oxygen."

"Whether in its pure form or mixed with other chemicals, ozone can be
harmful to health."

" When inhaled, ozone can damage the lungs. Relatively low amounts of ozone
can cause chest pain, coughing, shortness of breath and, throat irritation.
It may also worsen chronic respiratory diseases such as asthma as well as
compromise the ability of the body to fight respiratory infections."

"Some studies show that ozone concentrations produced by ozone generators
can exceed health standards even when one follows manufacturer's
instructions."

"Many factors affect ozone concentrations including the amount of ozone
produced by the machine(s), the size of the indoor space, the amount of
material in the room with which ozone reacts, the outdoor ozone
concentration, and the amount of ventilation. These factors make it
difficult to control the ozone concentration in all circumstances."

"Available scientific evidence shows that, at concentrations that do not
exceed public health standards, ozone is generally ineffective in
controlling indoor air pollution."

"The concentration of ozone would have to greatly exceed health standards to
be effective in removing most indoor air contaminants. In the process of
reacting with chemicals indoors, ozone can produce other chemicals that
themselves can be irritating and corrosive."
Cara - 30 Jun 2004 23:17 GMT
Hello Joe,

My son has severe asthma.  I've been through the Sun Pure, Bionaire
and one other filter whose name I forget.  None of them seemed to be
helping my son's nighttime coughing and itching. I turned them off to
see if that made him wose but there was no difference.

Then I found the AirSource 3000 from Shaklee.  I did a 7 day trial and
within a few days my son's itching was gone, his breathing was
improving overnight instead of getting worse and my husband stopped
snoring.  I was thrilled.  The difference is in the AirSource's
ability to remove bacteria and mold spores from the air - these are
too small for the HEPA filters.  The Sun Pure was supposed to kill
bacteria but now I understand that the UV light inside the filter
primariliy keeps the filter itself from being a breeding ground for
bacteria and mold.

So, that's my vote for air purifiers.

Will you post your article here after you've written it?

Caralyn
http://www.shaklee.net/bluedotlife/prodAir

> Hi. I am writing an article for an inflight magazine about indoor air filters
> like the Ionic Breeze. I would love to include the experience of someone who
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Joe Mullich
> www.joemullich.com
garthga - 02 Jul 2004 15:51 GMT
> Hi. I am writing an article for an inflight magazine about indoor air filters
> like the Ionic Breeze. I would love to include the experience of someone who
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Joe Mullich
> www.joemullich.com

I was looking through the July issue of my son's Mad magazine last night,
and there's an "ad" for The Ironic Breeze Silent Air Purifier from The
Shoddier Image.

It's a pretty funny parody; for example there's a chart of "Air-cleaning
ability when compared to other brands".  The other brands are; Salton
Toaster Oven, Kodak Digital Camera, Black & Decker Snake Light, and a 1991
Buick LeSabre.

There's an explanation of how it works, (and how it sucks money out of your
credit card); how the full five-year warranty covers all the packing
materials, instruction book and the rubber band that holds the AC cord
wrapped up in shipping; there's a testimonial from a "customer", and a bunch
of other pretty funny stuff.

Maybe someone from Mad magazine got burned buying one of these useless
pieces of crap and decided to have some fun with it.  Seems the writer
shares the same opinion of this wretched chunk of crapola as a lot of folks
with asthma and allergies do.

It's worth a look if you happen to be browsing a newsstand.

Garth Allen.
merlin - 10 Jul 2004 05:11 GMT
> > Hi. I am writing an article for an inflight magazine about indoor air
>  filters
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> Garth Allen.
Dear Joe,
Quite obviously the material you are actually seeking and of most
general interest for the kind of article you describe is a little
outside the scope of your apparent question of simple air filtering
idelogy.
What is actually in question is what the actual combined makeup of the
air within a general home or workplace actually is, how it actually
affects various people within and what they might decide or are able
to do about it.
Much is mentioned about ozone and it's adverse effect on people, which
of course is a fair statement, but this is somewhat stressed to the
point of absurdity with common claims that ionisation systems
generally are ozone producing and therefore dangerous, so much so,
that the entire concept is completely mistakenly misrepresented.
You mention that you are interested in aviation as your target, which
co-incidentally happens to be a most interesting application of this
particular technology, most especially ionisation technology and ozone
avoidance.
There is much that needs to be mentioned so that any non-technical
person might better grasp some of the basics of this technology, I
will mention the ionisation tool ideology to begin with. .
The entire technique is very simple, any physically tapering object
with conductive surface properties that has an Electo Motive Force
(EMF) applied, has an inherent propensity to emit an ionic flow from
it's apex, this is simply explained by the EMF exciting surface
electron activity which has a "bumping off" effect at the conductor
tip. If the EMF is increased the effect is increased, so that an
"ionic wind" is created off the end of the tapered section. If the
applied EMF is positive, ozone is produced, if it is negative, a
negative ion stream is essentially produced. There are enormous
potential applications for this effect.
If we consider an aircraft wing, we have a perfect tapering conductive
device, and of course the sharpest point is the rear-most outer
extremity, and it just so happens that if an EMF is applied to this
structure such as created by flying through a charged cloud, then
discharge will occur at this point. In the case of a higher EMF such
as might be experienced from a lightning strike, once again the
concept holds, and the discharge is most generally from this area,
sometimes even causing damage.
In that general uncontrolled static discharge (EMF) is prone to
causing radio and navigation equipment interference, we place devices
in the outer trailing wing areas (and the tail similar sections) to
progressively allow discharge in a controlled way, which overcomes the
radio spectrum noise generation problem, these are of course called
static discharge devices. (Probes or wicks) With slower velocity
aircraft the term "wick" was used because a graphite impregnated chord
was used similar to a lamp wick. As the velocity of the aircraft
increases, the inherent problem of static generation also increases,
so a better technique of removal is required. Nowdays a resistive
plastic piece of material some six inches or so long with a sharpened
tungsten needle at it's extremity, or a newer combination of special
steel wool, multi point material on a length of resistive carbon fibre
is used. The operating principal remains, a tapering conductive device
will allow an EMF to be disipated into the surrounding atmosphere,
which is highly desirable especially with aircraft generally. These
devices are a simple extension of the physics involved allowing
progressive controlled discharge.
One further item that requires mention is the ozone generated from
lightning.
Everyone would be aware that ozone is virtually positively charged
oxygen, magic stuff, it allows life to exist but also has a downside
if you suck it.
As we increase altitude above sea level, we pass through various
layers until we reach the ozone layer especially over the equatorial
areas, which of course is maintianed in place around our planet by
PFM, (pure magic) we seem to be entering a situation where for one
reason or another some people are becoming alarmed to find it is
depleting.
If we accept that this layer has a somewhat positive charge and then
as we gradually descend back into our atmosphere, we eventually come
to clouds, oddly enough the tops of clouds also carry a substantial
positive charge, and the bases are of course substantially negative.
These charges alter in relation to the cloud content and activity but
the polarity orientation remains the same.
So we have a situation where from time to time, the inherent charge is
sufficient to generate a path and discharges to the earth below, real
magic stuff, but what commonly happens is that a different kind of
lightning also discharges vertically above the clouds toward the
ether, and of couse we have ozone occurring at different levels in
differing degrees and concentrations.
As we fly higher in various aircraft, ozone begins to have apparent
effect in cabin recirculated air, the pressurisation which is sourced
from engine compressed air, the interesting thing here is that some
people are more susceptable to these kinds of effects than others.
Some have greater sensitivity to irritants, I wonder which group this
might be?
Some higher altitude aircraft actually have ozone filtering in their
air conditioning systems.
Now to mention a little about lightning below the clouds, most
especially direct cloud to ground strikes.
It is often mentioned that people are affected by ozone after an
electric storm, but what needs to be understood is that lightning is
essentially two parts, the enormous EMF from the cloud which is
incredibly negative and a second part which emanates from the ground
which is a positive EMF, these two elements meet somewhere in a thirty
feet or so height envelope above the ground and anyone nearby that has
actually witnessed a close encounter of this kind will bear testimony
to the pungent strong ozone that is generated mainly from the positive
EMF involved from the ground element, of course this effect is near
the ground and quickly dissipates as the circulating air neutralises
the effect with the other ionised air from above.
So this confirms why the air is so clean, clear and breathable after
an electrical storm has passed and also why some people may have a
whiff of ozone at that particular time.
The reduction in the atmospheric inherent positive charge naturally
affects the ability of the air to support foreign material, thus
considerable fallout occurs, especially affecting pollutive elements.
In some cases it might be possible to find increased pollutive effect
at ground level immediately after such an event or that the íncluded
precipitation may carry pollutant material to earth.
The overall picture is neutralised charge atmosphere and cleaner air
generally.
Another most interesting apect is that a negative EMF has the ability
to arc considerably more distance than a positive EMF.
This is why all ignition systems using an arc or electrically
generated spark are always negative.
A further interesting phenomenon is that a spark from a positive
source and a spark from a negative source have entirely different
properties. A positive high voltage spark is a blue simple zap, whilst
a negative sourced spark is a blue simple zap with an extra element of
yellowish fire surrounding it plus the ability for a similar negative
EMF pressure to jump a significantly greater distance.
This was commonly a problem in the days where vehicles with six volt
ignition systems were difficult to start, the coil connections were
often reversed which resulted in a positive spark rather than a proper
negative one, plenty of cranking but no firing.
Lightning is a simple further demonstration where a negative spark has
incredibly greater abilities.
By long term problem observation it was obvious that a device
constructed to apply the intelligence of ionisation could be
incredibly useful, especially in the case of airborne substance
problems in homes etc., which were affecting the inhabitants, most
especially asthmatics or those with airborne substance sensitivity
problems.
In the late seventies I began to experiment by constructing various
devices using various ideas to produce a negative ionisation stream
with a view to neautralising in home atmospheres which are always
positive, through inhome appliance use and various lamps etc.
As mentioned the theory is simple, a high EMF generator simply coupled
to some tapering conductors.
I did try various stepup transformer ideas to produce various EMF
pressures, many of you would be aware of sitting down with reels of
enamelled wire and working on textbook formulae to produce these
devices using ferrite housings etc., this idea proved partly
successful, but after half a dozen operational devices was deemed
impracticable.
I altered the idea by using a direct mains operated voltage
multiplying ladder circuit, and the idea really began to show
incredible promise, I was using old gramophone needles and sections of
high quality sewing type needles soldered to a circuit board as the
transmitters, the best effect appeared to be using a developed
negative EMF of between two and two point five kilovolts, with some
eight or so pointed needles. These things are certainly interesting to
play with, if placed over a white sheet of paper, a fallout pattern
appears after even a couple of days and after a month or so the effect
is extremely evident.
Breathing the air in front also appears to taste better, well
worthwhile trying.
The area at the tips of the transmitter elements show small blue
points of light emanations and the ionic wind generated is really
interesting, almost as strong a a person lightly blowing in a
concentrated area. A solid state fan more or less.
So the best prototype was replicated half a dozen times and placed
into a suitable casing and the items distributed to persons with
problems, to place in their bedrooms with a request for reporting any
effect.
Everyone reported a different sensation of apparent improved air
quality in their bedrooms, but after some eight months the effect
reduced substantially. The ionisers were retrieved and carefully
inspected, one had a power supply fault, the others all had
substantially reduced ion output, the needles were all heavily eroded
at the points and when replaced, restored excellent operation. In view
of the short-lifed point effect and the fact that we have very little
pollution effect at this particular global location, the entire idea
was scrapped.
In summary the effect would be extremely useful if I could have
overcome the point erosion problem and if there were a need at a
location for these kinds of devices, but they would need regular
operational inspection and possible parts replacement.
With regard to ozone, the units I was testing showed no sign
whatsoever, care was taken with the power supply arrangement and
mounting setup, the stepup transformer devices would appear most
likely to generate ozone from collected attracted fallout and the
mains voltage multiplying circuit appeared much more reliable and
efficient.
I was however most interested in the ozone effect mentioned, as
everyone would be aware, halogen lamps produce quantities of ozone, so
by making a string of halogen lamps in a glass tube and passing air
through the tube, a simple concentration of ozone can be obtained.
Everyone would be aware of the effect of breathing ozone, very similar
to breathing a dilute chlorine mixture, and the effect is also
similar, dry sore throat, watery eyes, best described as an irritant
kind of reaction. It did appear to me that asthmatics were most likely
to be affected more severely than normal people, which I suspected
might be due to increased mucus possibly absorbing the gas similar to
chlorine dissolving in water kind of effect. A device was constructed
to enable the ozone to be syphoned by venturi effect into a swimming
pool pump water return  This idea began to show sterilising promise
but was inadvertantly terminated when a person in the pool blocked the
return line which flooded the device causing its immediate self
destruction. The lesson learned here was that ozone has most
interesting properties and has potential application in other
technical areas, also that some kids do the darndest things.
The idea had been basically aimed at observing effects of ozone on
water quality, sterility and people with that water.
A further interesting development occurred when I was repairing a
reverse osmosis desalination unit, it also contained an ultraviolet
water steriliser unit which was essentially a large mecury vapour lamp
suitably located inside a water circulation arrangement, I suspected
that generated ozone may also have been a factor in it's operational
effectiveness.
I have mentioned a bit about various kinds of ionisation, how they can
be generated and some apparent qualities, now I will mention some
further observations.
An asthmatic (allergic) adult person, three year history, moderate to
severe problem, situation analysis identified problem pets, aromatic
substances and general dust. This person applied every effort to
overcome their problem which was confirmed as obviously airborne
sourced, most especially in their home.
A standard Murphy remedial method was adopted, but this person also
procured three air filters and after arrangement in her home reported
that the asthmatic problem had lifted virtually entirely by the next
day, incredible stuff !! I was expecting situation improvement, but
this person had shown incredible improvement within two days. She was
astonished as was I.
I enquired as to what kind of air filters had been used and how they
had been positioned. I was informed with a model and brand name.
I envisaged a micronic filter with activated charcoal element and was
amazed to find the filters procured were actually ionisers, with no
filtering capacity that I could actually determine, apart from the
fall-out effect from a neutralising atmospheric charge.
The particular units in this case were "Sharper Image" which as far as
I can determine were simple ionisers, but I really would like to get
one and see "what makes them tick" I suspect it would be a simple
device, much as I previously mentioned, but my interest would be in
the housing, the voltage source, amplitude and the transmitter head
design and what material they have used, really to see if they have
overcome the erosion problem. It certainly aroused my interest.
This is just one of many problems solved using air filtering or
altering devices, this just happened to be the most remarkable in my
experience, and was coupled with other problem avoidance practical
remedial ideas.
One other air quality improving idea involves anyone with room
airconditioning, most especially stand alone wall or window units,
these usually have a removeable front panel which enables access to
the filter element. This is usually a flat fibrous element similar to
a "scotch-brite" scouring pad but larger in size. Over time this
element gradually collects dust. This effect can be significantly
enhanced by simply removing, cleaning and refitting it, then carefully
placing a single layer of "kleenex" tissues as to cover the entire
exposed filtering area, this might sound rather simple but the air
filtering quality of the machine is enhanced and actually becomes
better still after a week or so, the tissue material will need to be
replaced periodically, but it becomes a simple task and really
collects a lot of airborne rubbish.
Other filters involve paper elements, ozone cells, activated charcoal,
negative ion systems, and even a scrubber system.
So what type of unit might be most useful?
If we analyse the situation quickly, such as a recent experience I
had, I entered a small building for a moderate corporate office area,
all ceiling lighting was hidden, the company motif on the wall was
illuminated from lighting above, behind and within. The entire area
was carpetted with high cut pile type plush carpet, numerous TV and
CRT type monitors were present with all kinds of information
displayed, the airconditioning system was a typical recirculation unit
mounted in the ceiling/roof involving two units.
The girl behind the reception desk had a reddened nose typical of
someone using tissues.
In this case without even doing any testing we had all the elements
present, there must have been at least fifty halogen lamps operating,
TV and Monitors would have also been generating ozone effects, so
collectively it would indicate that there would logically have to be a
considerable ozone element present in that mini atmosphere, the high
plush cut pile carpet would obviously enhance this situation by
accellerating static generation by anyone moving around that area,
especially if they were wearing synthetic substance clothing.
Several laser photocopiers were also observed.
This is part of the reason that modern airconditioning systems
regularly include negative ionisation systems, this situation did not
have any minimisation device whatsoever. There are only three ways
that I know to overcome this problem, one, use an activated charcoal
inline air filter, two, use a suitable negative air ioniser system,
and three, replace the entire air volume frequently.
The problem can be further reduced by using loop-pile carpet, this
sounds odd, but remember point-emission, the present carpet would
likely be treated with antistatic chemical and the material is not
fur, so we could expect a further positive emission from that source
generally.
I suspect it was one of those offices where everyone gets a static
shock as a daily expectation and sickness rates would likely be high
due to suspended breathed vapours from sneezes and such.
I have mentioned a couple of device concepts in reasonable depth here
because I do repeatedly observe flippant remarks being made in respect
to these ideas without consideration of the implications or benefits,
this will also allow you to better grasp the material you need to
understand for your project and some idea of the questions you might
need to ask the manufacturers of these various devices.
Anyone feeling dry sore throat kinds of problems from any office
environment might better understand the possible causes and any office
furnishing company might consider some alternative ideas.
An excellent place to observe lightning in my experience was Nadi,
Fiji. This is a tropical paradise and in the wet season the cloudbase
comes as low as six hundred feet, heavily leaden, and develops through
the hot days so that in early afternoon any disturbance such as a
landing aircraft disrupting the inherent charges, begins the show.
This lightning is simple vertical ground strikes, as frequent as five
seconds or so, over a localised area. The strikes can be as close as
fifty feet or so from you, and people are often struck, but it remains
a lightning watchers paradise. The best observation point is from an
all metal small vehicle parked in the vicinity of the Nadi golf club
near the water's edge.
The local airport had isotopic ionisers placed on top of fifty foot
poles designed to reduce strike effect in that area. (Lightning
deterrent)
Brisbane Australia, (semi tropical) also has a most excellent frequent
natural summer electrical storm display, this has even warranted a
television text page with a real time lightning activity map. These
strikes are again vertical zaps, occurring at about ten to fifteen
second intervals, again a delightful display of nature but not quite
as predictable as Nadi. This warrants a ritual procedure of unplugging
aerials, switching off all sensitive electrical devices and not using
telephones during the passing of these storms.
The cloud base of these storms is average 900 feet, and they pass in
thirty minutes or so. It most certainly has an incredible improvement
effect on the atmospheric air quality even though there is very little
pollution here.
Probably the most unsafe area that you can possibly be during
lightning activity is on a golf course green, the constant watering
and fertiliser increasing ground conductivity in these areas makes
them a lightning magnet, the safest place is probably a small all
metal sedan type of car or a metal shed. Remember I have mentioned
this, as you will experience a closeby lightning death in your
lifetime, just ensure it is not yourself.
Ionisation is an incredible area for discussion and experimentation,
it is a natural phenomenon, delightfully simple, but much
mis-understood. It is an incredible tool for assisting air quality
especially in large volumes of airflow, remember that airborne
bacterea is also affected and reduced. Using it's effect sensibly is
incredibly beneficial.
Even the modern electronic camera flash produces an effect capable of
igniting a fuel/air vapour mix involving an associated effect.
With regard to an asthmatic person affected by airborne substances
remember an ordinary paper filter will not remove ozone, an activated
charcoal filter will, an ion generator has a much greater effect and
will also do the job very well.
All devices have negative considerations, paper filters clog and need
regular replacement, charcoal filters also have limitations and need
periodic replacement, ionisers probably need periodic transmitter head
replacement.
So you see there is a little more involved than would appear evident.
Thankyou. Merlin.



 


   




       
.
ARoberts - 11 Jul 2004 00:50 GMT
> > > Hi. I am writing an article for an inflight magazine about indoor air
> >  filters
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> outside the scope of your apparent question of simple air filtering
> idelogy.

****************
(3767 words of deeply relevant and erudite scientific jargon clipped for
brevity)
****************

> So you see there is a little more involved than would appear evident.

> Thankyou. Merlin.

Oh no--thank you!.  It would never have occurred to anyone but you to
include such a comprehensive compilation of phonograph needle experiments
and nostalgic musings in response to the poster.  Since everything that you
have written is absolutely relevant to his question,  I am quite sure that
he will be using your valuable contributions verbatim (Of necessity, in
serialized form over several editions).
Joy - 11 Jul 2004 02:32 GMT
> Oh no--thank you!.  It would never have occurred to anyone but you to
> include such a comprehensive compilation of phonograph needle experiments
> and nostalgic musings in response to the poster.  Since everything that you
> have written is absolutely relevant to his question,  I am quite sure that
> he will be using your valuable contributions verbatim (Of necessity, in
> serialized form over several editions).

No one else bothered to read all that!  : ) We know what to expect. Come
on. ; )
ARoberts - 11 Jul 2004 02:57 GMT
> > Oh no--thank you!.  It would never have occurred to anyone but you to
> > include such a comprehensive compilation of phonograph needle experiments
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>  No one else bothered to read all that!  : ) We know what to expect. Come
> on. ; )

I must have a great appreciation for the absurd  (well, I do like Moliere,
but merlin is more of Chekhov as painted by Dali).

It's like watching a horrific accident unfold--one is compelled by the sheer
disbelief of it all.  Have you noticed that those who threaten to leave and
never come back because the world is not ready for their "knowledge", always
return?  Self-aggrandizement is a most powerful motivator.
Joy - 11 Jul 2004 04:36 GMT
If I could post reliably, I would have more to say. As it is, I have to say
I am still stunned that someone named Merlin accused me of bloodletting.

> > > Oh no--thank you!.  It would never have occurred to anyone but you to
> > > include such a comprehensive compilation of phonograph needle
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> never come back because the world is not ready for their "knowledge", always
> return?  Self-aggrandizement is a most powerful motivator.
PENMART01 - 11 Jul 2004 14:34 GMT
>"Joy"
>
>If I could post reliably, I would have more to say. As it is, I have to say
>I am still stunned that someone named Merlin accused me of bloodletting.

That was merely Merlin *politely" indicating you're a cast iron bitch on the
rag.

---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
         ---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
                                *********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon          
````````````  
Joy - 11 Jul 2004 18:57 GMT
> >"Joy"
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> That was merely Merlin *politely" indicating you're a cast iron bitch on the
> rag.

Joy "politely" replies:

I was here, you forget, when you were pulling this on Susan. You little man,
who has to buy his wife a purple dildo. And I'm not going to play. You are
killfiled. So post what you want. I won't know about it. You jerk. By the
way, you know nothing about COPD so go read up before you give more people
your ignorant opinion.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/464534?src=search
 
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