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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Asthma / May 2004

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Anybody with sleep apnea? Need advice

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Meghan Noecker - 17 May 2004 11:21 GMT
I have a friend with sleep apnea. He cannot use the cpap machine as it
causes extreme panic for him. Instead, he was fitted with a dental
guard, but he is having trouble with that too.

I'm hoping somebody here might have some advice for him. I told him I
would ask here since many people with asthma also have sleep apnea. I
expect I will too as my mom does, and I already snore.

So, here's the problem. He has a dental guard specificially for sleep
apnea. He is sleeping better with it, but it is so tight that it rubs
his gums, and he ends up aching all day. The dentist said he could
tighten it, but not loosen it. And it is supposed to be tight.

Any suggestions for ways to make it work without causing him to have
sore gums all day, every day? He likes being able to sleep, but now he
hurts all day.

Also, he's given up on the CPAP machine, but since it is more ideal
than the dental guard, I'd be interested in knowing if there is a way
to reduce the pressure. Apparentlty, it blows so hard that it makes
pressure in the nose, and he has to swallow a lot. So he stays awake.
He tried to take tranquilizers to see if that would work, but between
the face mask freaking him out (he's claustrophobic) and the pressure
keeping him awake, he can't use the machine and get a decent night's
sleep. My mom uses the machine, but she's never had any trouble with
it, so she had no suggestions.

Thank you very much.

Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
nonerequired - 17 May 2004 15:53 GMT
You might try alt.support.sleep-disorder for more information.

Pressure CAN be turned down, BUT you will need the Dr. to approve it and a
technician to do the job. Less pressure will be less optimal but if this allows
him to become accustomed to the device first, then it can be stepped up slowly.
There is generally a "ramp" setting that allows the pressure to build up to the
full set level allowing (hopefully) sleep to come before pressure reaches full
level. Experienced users seldom use it but new users often do. Engage this
feature at maximal level.

Lots of people feel claustrophobic with the mask. There are alternatives; nasal
pillows are less obtrusive and confining and could be tried. It is also
worthwhile to try wearing the "nose piece" and headgear WITHOUT hose and
pressure for awhile before bed just to allow the body to get accustomed to it.
If that is too much start JUST with headgear and then work up. Try to relax
while using it. Listen to some nice music, breathe deeply, that sort of thing.

He probably should use the dental appliance and the CPAP at the same time but
I'd ask a sleep tech or Dr. about that.

(I used to set CPAP's up but it's been years so masks have probably changed a bit)

Fritz Merkel; Respiratory Care Practitioner
Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America-WA Branch
Meghan Noecker - 17 May 2004 20:45 GMT
>You might try alt.support.sleep-disorder for more information.

Thanks. I also posted there and did some looking through the archives.

>Pressure CAN be turned down, BUT you will need the Dr. to approve it and a
>technician to do the job. Less pressure will be less optimal but if this allows
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>level. Experienced users seldom use it but new users often do. Engage this
>feature at maximal level.

He mentions a friend who had the machine before, so I don't know know
whether it has been readjusted for him. Until looking this stuff up, I
didn't know it was individualized. I suspect he doesn't know either,
and has assumed it set right but doesn't work for him, and that it
cannot be changed. It does have the ramp feature. He likes at the
lower setting, but says it keeps him awake at the full setting.

I will give him the information tonight, so he can get that machine
reset and try it again.

>Lots of people feel claustrophobic with the mask. There are alternatives; nasal
>pillows are less obtrusive and confining and could be tried. It is also
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>Fritz Merkel; Respiratory Care Practitioner
>Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America-WA Branch

Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
nonerequired - 17 May 2004 22:42 GMT
Yes, pressure settings are individualized. He SHOULD have either gone to a sleep
lab and had a sleep test and a CPAP pressure setting, or sometimes a home care
agency brings a unit out and setting is done by slow increases via interaction
with a technician until an optimal setting has been established. This is
validated with a home test after setting (usually). Both methods are about as
reliable if the parties know what they are doing.

If he got a used unit from someone else, and not had it reset for his particular
pressure needs it probably is set up wrong. Pressure setting is roughly a
function of weight and neck size, the higher/bigger the more pressure is
generally needed. There is an optimal for each person. Neither higher or lower
is desirable.

Getting used to pressure in the teens can be difficult. It may be best to start
him off about 5 cm H20 and work up.

BTW, he can also try getting used to it by just sitting in a chair and not even
trying to sleep.

Fritz
Richard Friedel - 19 May 2004 07:34 GMT
> I have a friend with sleep apnea. He cannot use the cpap machine as it
> causes extreme panic for him. Instead, he was fitted with a dental
> guard, but he is having trouble with that too.

Not to forget the basic physiology.  The scientific literature ALSO
speaks of "hypocapnic sleep anpeas",  i.e. due to excessive carbon
dioxide loss.  The body does not like getting respiratory alkalosis
and stops breathing  for a matter of seconds.  This would be food for
thought and a reason for sticking to nose breathing if possible.  As
somebody with a tendency to mouth breathing, I use a piece of adhesive
tape of a suitable size so that it comes off easily.

The cpap stuff seems to be a prime example of disease mongering –
dreamed up by some tycoon as a business scheme, not a  really
scientific notion, thanks to the high success rate for
self-fulfilling prophecies in the health sector.  See „Selling
sickness: the pharmaceutical industry and disease mongering" by Ray
Moynihan, Iona Heath, David Henry, BMJ, vol.  324,    April, 13.2002
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/324/7342/886. Kind regards
to and your horses, Richard Friedel
nonerequired - 19 May 2004 19:17 GMT
> Not to forget the basic physiology.  The scientific literature ALSO
> speaks of "hypocapnic sleep anpeas",  i.e. due to excessive carbon
> dioxide loss.  The body does not like getting respiratory alkalosis
> and stops breathing  for a matter of seconds.  This would be food for
> thought and a reason for sticking to nose breathing if possible.  

In obstructive sleep apnea the upper airway is collapsed. Tape is just another
level of obstruction. The hypocapnic sleep apneas you refer to is thought to be
a temporary "over shoot" of excessive breathing in response to prolonged apnea.
This causes the apnea > hypocapnea > apnea cycle to continue.

As
> somebody with a tendency to mouth breathing, I use a piece of adhesive
> tape of a suitable size so that it comes off easily.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/324/7342/886. Kind regards
> to and your horses, Richard Friedel

I doubt it. The problem has been around a lot longer than the recent CPAP
"cure". "pickwickian syndrome" comes from the Dickens character Mr. Pickwick who
probably had sleep apnea. Before CPAP people with life threatening CPAP had no
real recourse except tracheostomy.

I doubt any waking breathing exercises will do any good while asleep.

Fritz Merkel; Respiratory Care Practitioner
Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America-WA Branch
Katilist - 21 May 2004 08:31 GMT
   Not to substitute for good advice on devices, 2 friends of mine ended their
sleep apnea by losing a lot of weight (over 50 lbs each).  If your friend is
overweight (not everyone with apnea is, but a large percentage are grossly
obese and obesity is strongly related to developing this condition), I suggest
he develop a plan with his doctor to effect permanent weight loss through
changes in diet and lifestyle.

WolfKat  ^..^  >^^<

If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.
-Catherine Aird
Meghan Noecker - 21 May 2004 08:59 GMT
>    Not to substitute for good advice on devices, 2 friends of mine ended their
>sleep apnea by losing a lot of weight (over 50 lbs each).  If your friend is
>overweight (not everyone with apnea is, but a large percentage are grossly
>obese and obesity is strongly related to developing this condition), I suggest
>he develop a plan with his doctor to effect permanent weight loss through
>changes in diet and lifestyle.

Yes, he is morbidly obese. I don't know what all he has done for
weight loss discussions with his doctor, but he has changed his diet.
It could still use some improvements, and I doubt he has added any
exercise, but hopefully he will.I really don't want to say too much
and push him away.

Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
nonerequired - 22 May 2004 00:18 GMT
Weight loss for anyone obese is a good idea. It's a tough road though, success
if pretty poor even without sleep apnea. I've never seen anyone with untreated
OSA lose wt. I HAVE seen treated persons lose wt. sometimes significant amounts.
I haven't seen any males lose enough wt. to get off CPAP, although pressure is
often reduced. I have seen a few females lose enough wt. to get off completely.

There seems to be some hormonal wt. protection for females. My experience has
only seen morbidly obese females with OSA, while a few poor skinny guys get it
but in general they are overwt. also. Post menopausal women lose this protection.

I'd suggest, treat first, get feeling a bit better with more energy, then tackle
wt. loss.

Fritz
Katilist - 22 May 2004 08:06 GMT
   I agree, Fritz - the lack of energy presents a catch-22 in weight loss.  My
friends both lost their bulk on Atkins, a plan on which it is pretty much
impossible NOT to lose weight IF you can stick to the program.  The one was a
woman who had recently had surgery on a knee blown out by her obese state.  She
was in no condition to exercise yet desperately needed to lose weight.

   If anyone wants to go on Atkins, I recommend getting a physical and a
doctor's okay first, and doing it under a doctor's care.  It has the advantage
of being a program that works even for people who start with zero energy, but
it's not for everyone.

Fritz wrote:
>Weight loss for anyone obese is a good idea. It's a tough road though,
>success
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>tackle
>wt. loss.

WolfKat  ^..^  >^^<

If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.
-Catherine Aird
CBI - 22 May 2004 21:29 GMT
>     I agree, Fritz - the lack of energy presents a catch-22 in weight
> loss.  My friends both lost their bulk on Atkins, a plan
on which it
> is pretty much impossible NOT to lose weight IF you can
stick to the
> program.  The one was a woman who had recently had surgery
on a knee
> blown out by her obese state.  She was in no condition to
exercise
> yet desperately needed to lose weight.
>
>     If anyone wants to go on Atkins, I recommend getting a physical
> and a doctor's okay first, and doing it under a doctor's
care.  It
> has the advantage of being a program that works even for
people who
> start with zero energy, but it's not for everyone.

It will be interesting to see how Adkins hold up with its
popularity. The studies that showed significant weight loss
on Adkins also showed that the people ate fewer calories.
When you look at what they ate a big difference was that in
general they ate less variety of foods and specifically they
didn't snack as the most common tempting snack foods are not
permitted. Many of the past fad diets were ititially
successful and then eventually fell out of favor becasue
they relied on dietary choice restriction of some kind.
Further supporting this suspicion is that when you look at
the longer term (1 years arather than 3 months) the Adkins
dieters regained more of their lost weight back )afyter
losing more) so that at 1 year there was not much difference
from conventional dieting. it is suspected that people
either started to cheat or learned more variety of Adkins
compatible foods.

These days companies are starting to produce Adkins
compatible snack foods and other products so it will be
interesting to see if people still see the weight loss now
while snacking more and generally having more choices.

Also, some caution should be used and a physician should be
involved since, contrary to the claims of proponents, some
studies have suggested worsening lipid panels on similar
diets.

Signature

CBI, MD

Katilist - 23 May 2004 10:15 GMT
>It will be interesting to see how Adkins hold up with its
>popularity.

   Well, considering that it came out some 30 years ago, I'd say it's holding
up pretty well...  Also consider that this includes the intense bashing of
well-meaning nutritionists who insisted for years that low-fat diets containing
things like margarine (now known to be a severe artery-clogger) were better,
based not on studies but on their own 'intuition'.

> The studies that showed significant weight loss
>on Adkins also showed that the people ate fewer calories.

   Not all studies show this.  It's been proven that low-carb diets *are* more
satisfying and produce a full feeling, so that dieters can eat less and feel
full.  But it's also been shown that a low-carb diet, particularly one low in
such high-glycemic items such as sugar and high-fructose corn syrup) tends to
lead to weight loss and stabilizing even if the patient consumes more calories
overall.

>Further supporting this suspicion is that when you look at
>the longer term (1 years arather than 3 months) the Adkins
>dieters regained more of their lost weight back )afyter
>losing more) so that at 1 year there was not much difference
>from conventional dieting.

   Also not true.  The latest year-long study showed that while initial weight
loss occurred faster on the Atkins diet, dieters using a conventional low-fat
approach eventually caught up with them by the one-year mark.  Indications were
that Atkins was possibly a good approach when quicker weight-loss was needed,
but longer-term results looked about the same.

   It should be noted that as a dieter progresses on Atkins, "good" carbs such
as vegetables are increased and weight loss is *expected* to slow.  The severe
carb restriction at the initial stage is not for the sake of nutrition, but to
break cravings for refined carbs (flour and the like) and sugar and to give the
patient a 'win' at the outset to encourage them to keep going.

   The trouble with *any* type of weight loss plan, fad or not, is putting the
weight back on once one has erached the goal and stopped the plan.  The entire
lifestyle still has to be changed.  One thing about Atkins is that it does,
should the patient follow it, gradually ease restrictions and continue to give
guidance about food choices, until by the maintenance stage the person is in a
much healthier eating pattern, hopefully for life.  The reason Atkins is being
hailed lately is that so many doctors of cardiac and diabetic patients have
been seeing those patients do much better and last longer on Atkins than on the
old draconian low-fat, low-meat approaches, and those doctors began requesting
that longer-term studies be done.

>These days companies are starting to produce Adkins
>compatible snack foods and other products so it will be
>interesting to see if people still see the weight loss now
>while snacking more and generally having more choices.

   This is something I am wondering about myself.  To my own view, any food
that is processed is suspect in weight gain - it just seems like malnutrition
(and associated weight gain and lethargy) waiting to happen.  I have no studies
to back me up on this - it is only based on my personal experience.

   My friends who went on Atkins not only didn't have health problems on it;
they lowered their (bad) cholesterol and triglycerides to healthy levels, and
my male friend, who is diabetic, was able to stop his insulin injections and
blood pressure medication, aside from the benefit of finally getting a decent
night's sleep.  (Neither had a history of kidney disease, which would preclude
going on Atkins.)

  By the way, since you are an MD, I'm surprised that you consistently
misspell the name of a diet that is extremely well-known in the medical
community.

WolfKat  ^..^  >^^<

If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.
-Catherine Aird
CBI - 23 May 2004 16:31 GMT
>> It will be interesting to see how Adkins hold up with its
>> popularity.
>
>     Well, considering that it came out some 30 years ago, I'd say
> it's holding up pretty well...

It really has only been popular for a few years though. Like
I said - that is likely to be the downfall of the diet is
the marketting of a broad array of Atkins compatible foods,
which si a recent developement.

>> Further supporting this suspicion is that when you look
at
>> the longer term (1 years arather than 3 months) the
Adkins
>> dieters regained more of their lost weight back )afyter
>> losing more) so that at 1 year there was not much
difference
>> from conventional dieting.
>
>     Also not true.  The latest year-long study showed that while
> initial weight loss occurred faster on the Atkins diet,
dieters using
> a conventional low-fat approach eventually caught up with
them by the
> one-year mark.  Indications were that Atkins was possibly
a good
> approach when quicker weight-loss was needed, but
longer-term results
> looked about the same.

It sound slike we are talking about the same study. In it
the Atkins people lost more weight at three months. By one
year both groups had gained some of the weight back - i.e.
they were heavier than they were at the three month mark -
bu tthe Adkins people gained back more of their initial
weight loss.  Which is what I said the first time.

This study also showed that during the three month period
the Adkins dieters ate fewer calories per day. It is
considered the best study done to date. The studies
suggesting that Adkins dieters lose more weight even
whenconsuming more calories are small and not nearly as well
done.

>     It should be noted that as a dieter progresses on Atkins, "good"
> carbs such as vegetables are increased and weight loss is
*expected*
> to slow.  The severe carb restriction at the initial stage
is not for
> the sake of nutrition, but to break cravings for refined
carbs (flour
> and the like) and sugar and to give the patient a 'win' at
the outset
> to encourage them to keep going.

But the weight loss did not just slow - it reversed back
into weight gain.

>     The trouble with *any* type of weight loss plan, fad or not, is
> putting the weight back on once one has erached the goal
and stopped
> the plan.

But the people supposedly hadn't stopped the plan. The
question that is unanswered is whether they had in reality
stopped it (i.e. cheated) or if they learned to eat more
while staying on the plan. If it is the former then the same
problem will occur with any diet but more so with diets that
take people into ways of eating that are harder to sustain.
If it is the later then all these new food products will
likely be the downfall of the diet by encouraging snacking
and adding to the variety of foods available to eat.

> The entire lifestyle still has to be changed.  One thing
> about Atkins is that it does, should the patient follow
it, gradually
> ease restrictions and continue to give guidance about food
choices,
> until by the maintenance stage the person is in a much
healthier
> eating pattern, hopefully for life.

This raises a third possibility. Maybe the maintenance stage
needs to be rethought.

> The reason Atkins is being
> hailed lately is that so many doctors of cardiac and diabetic
> patients have been seeing those patients do much better
and last
> longer on Atkins than on the old draconian low-fat,
low-meat
> approaches, and those doctors began requesting that
longer-term
> studies be done.

Anytime a diet becomes as popular as the Atkins diet,
especially if the only data being offered is 3 month data,
doctors will request longer term studies. All diets work in
the short term. It is the long term that tends to kill them
and so that is really where the money is as far as showing
they are different.

I'n not saying Adkins may not turn out to be a good thing.
There is some support for it in theory. However, the data
are not nearly as strong as the proponents claim it is
(really it is a bit concerning). I think when all is said
and done there will need to be some tweaking, especially in
the maintenance phase. Specifically they will have to put
back in some measure of calorie counting (perhaps not
counting calories per se - put some kind of protion control)
as I don't think the "eat as much as you want as long as it
is not carbs" idea will not hold up when people have a
larger variety of foods and really warm up to the idea as
may be happening after three months. They will probably also
need to specifically warn against snacking - Atkins friendly
or not. I also think the idea of "net carbs" needs to be a
explored a bit more.

The good news is that it is a fairly sustainable diet - i.e.
I think it is always going to relatively easy to substitute
veggies for potatoes and pass on the dinner roll.

>     My friends who went on Atkins not only didn't have health
> problems on it; they lowered their (bad) cholesterol and
> triglycerides to healthy levels,

Like I said - the literature is conflicting on that point
and so more needs to be done. The theory of the Atkins diet
makes the most sense in a calorie deficient state where the
fat has to be burned. In a calorie excess state, which is
what is happening after three months when they are gaining
weight back, especially if the carb restrictions have been
loosened (and doubly so if they are cheating), the theory
predicts an increase in cholesterol. So I would ask when in
relation to the start of the diet the cholesterols were
measured and if they were gaining or losing wieght at the
time. If it was shortly after the start and/or they were
losing wieght then the low cholesterol does not surprise me.
I would be more concerned with the time period of 9-12
months after the start when the weight is creeping up
(assuming it is - if not then they may not be typical Atkins
dieters).

> and my male friend, who is diabetic,
> was able to stop his insulin injections

Well that makes sense. I have absolutely no doubt that any
degree of carb restriction will reduce the need for diabetes
meds. However, the biggest risk of death for diabetics is
still from vascular diease and cholesterol levels are still
a bigger risk for that than glycemic control so the concerns
about cholesterols still stand. I will say that diabetes is
a bit of a more complicated system since some of the lipid
abnormalities are tied closely to the sugar problems so
controlling the sugar will have a direct positive effect on
the lipids independant of the effects of dietary fat.

> and blood pressure
> medication,

Weight loss from any diet will benefit blood pressure.

> aside from the benefit of finally getting a decent
> night's sleep.

Not sure what that is about unless sleep apnea was an issue.

> (Neither had a history of kidney disease, which would
> preclude going on Atkins.)

Funny you should mention that. Protein restriction in renal
disease is not nearly as well supported in the literature as
the average nephologist would let on.

>    By the way, since you are an MD, I'm surprised that you
> consistently misspell the name of a diet that is extremely
well-known
> in the medical community.

1) It is not that well known to the medical community other
than how it is known to the regular community - book covers
and the popular press. There has not been nearly as much
research on it as many suggest - especially when you
consider that small observational studies tend to not get
much notice in the medical literature.

2) When it is mentioned in the medical literature it is
usually not referred to by the popular name.

3) I'm more much more concerned with whether and how it
works than with how to spell the guy's name.

4) Mentioning it is kind of a cleap shot (more accurately an
ad hominem attack). How I spell it really has no bearing on
whether it works. There are a number of cheap shots I could
take at Atkins but I have refrained from doing so for
similar reasons.

Signature

CBI, MD

Katilist - 23 May 2004 19:17 GMT
>It sound slike we are talking about the same study.
<snip>
>But the weight loss did not just slow - it reversed back
>into weight gain.

   Then it's not the same study.  The recent study I read about showed no such
thing.  Atkins patients lost weight more rapidly for 6 months, not 3, at which
point their weight loss slowed but did not reverse.  The low-fat dieters caught
up with them by the 1-year mark, having had weight loss that was slower
initially but more steady. One might say it's the tortoise vs. hare approach.

<snip>
>Maybe the maintenance stage
>needs to be rethought.

   While there may be truth in this, I'm not sure I entirely agree with your
statement.  A person is by definition no longer expected to lose weight in a
'maintenance' phase.  Also one needs to take into account factors such as a
need for increased exercise - it takes less effort to move a 185 lb. body than
a 350 lb. one and exercise must be increased to make up for this.  It may sound
simple but it's surprising how many people never think of it.

<snip>
>So I would ask when in
>relation to the start of the diet the cholesterols were
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>(assuming it is - if not then they may not be typical Atkins
>dieters).

   Both have maintained the low cholesterol readings since they started the
diet approximately 2 years ago, and 1 1/4 year ago respectively.  Both
confirmed that this morning.

<snip>
>> aside from the benefit of finally getting a decent
>> night's sleep.
>
>Not sure what that is about unless sleep apnea was an issue.

   Um... it was the original reason for my posting about the Atkins diet - as
a means for a morbidly obese person with little energy to still lose weight and
possibly decrease or end sleep apnea, as my friends did.  The thread was about
sleep apnea.  That was in fact the thread you responded to, so I'm not sure why
you're not making the connection.  Then again, I'm sure you're quite busy, so
perhaps you've forgotten it.

<snip>
> Protein restriction in renal
>disease is not nearly as well supported in the literature as
>the average nephologist would let on.

   This may be true, but it's a rare doctor that will consider Atkins for
his/her patient if one has kidney problems at the outset.

>1) It is not that well known to the medical community other
>than how it is known to the regular community - book covers
>and the popular press. There has not been nearly as much
>research on it as many suggest - especially when you
>consider that small observational studies tend to not get
>much notice in the medical literature.

   While it is true that doctors are shamefully deficient in training about
nutrition - not their fault but that of medical schools - I have never over the
past 10 years met a doctor that is not quite familiar with the Atkins diet, by
name.  Of course, this is in the States - perhaps you are from elsewhere where
it is not so common?

>4) Mentioning it is kind of a cleap shot (more accurately an
>ad hominem attack). How I spell it really has no bearing on
>whether it works. There are a number of cheap shots I could
>take at Atkins but I have refrained from doing so for
>similar reasons.

   Let me explain my concern.  Often someone dismisses someone or their idea
by misspelling/mispronouncing their name, and I had no way of knowing whether
this was the case here.  Whether or not you are familiar with it, it was
correctly spelled in the post to which you responded - once you saw a
discrepancy, a quick check would have confirmed that easily enough.  Also, if
we discuss something here and someone wants to research it, especially online,
the correct spelling of the name becomes quite important.  I don't understand
why being corrected got you so huffy, when as a doctor - and I have read your
posts and know this to be true - you understand precision in names is important
in your field.

   As for your noting that you could take cheap shots at the diet - I enjoy a
discourse on subjects which interest me, even if the other person does not
agree with my view point.  But simply taking "cheap shots" at something would
be more a reflection on you than on the program.

   This has been an interesting discussion.  But as I've made my points, more
than once, and it appears at the brink of descending into a less civil level,
I'll stop here.  I like this forum as a source of information, but I'm not
comfortable with how easily some of its members take offense if they are
questioned on 'touchy' areas.  Problem is, no one knows which area is 'touchy'
until they get flamed.

WolfKat  ^..^  >^^<

If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.
-Catherine Aird
CBI - 24 May 2004 01:38 GMT
> <snip>
>> Maybe the maintenance stage
>> needs to be rethought.
>
>     While there may be truth in this, I'm not sure I entirely agree
> with your statement.  A person is by definition no longer
expected to
> lose weight in a 'maintenance' phase.

1) Most people need to lose more weight than they will do in
the first three, even six, months so I would think that the
period you refer to as "the mainenance phase" will still be
a weight loss phase for many if not most dieters (as is
apparently the case in the study you mention).

2) The study you mention not withstanding, it is unusual to
get a alrge group of people to not gain weight after the
initial weight loss (which makes me interested to know the
details of the stufy you mention.

3) The theory of why the Atkins' diet does not worsen lipid
levels (assuming it doesn't - not a safe assupmtion) relies
on ketosis. When a person is calorically negative (i.e.
losing weight) and severely restricting carbs this is a
fairly easy state to maintain. If the calories are neutral
or in excess and carbs are being added back in it may not be
as it does not take much carbohydrate to throw a person back
out of ketosis.

> <snip>
>>> aside from the benefit of finally getting a decent
>>> night's sleep.
>>
>> Not sure what that is about unless sleep apnea was an
issue.

>     Um... it was the original reason for my posting about the Atkins
> diet - as a means for a morbidly obese person with little
energy to
> still lose weight and possibly decrease or end sleep
apnea, as my
> friends did.  The thread was about sleep apnea.  That was
in fact the
> thread you responded to, so I'm not sure why you're not
making the
> connection.  Then again, I'm sure you're quite busy, so
perhaps
> you've forgotten it.

It has nothing to do with being busy or forgetting. It is
just that it was not clear how much of this discussion still
had to do with the original topic. OSA had not even been
mentioned in several posts and at the time we were
discussing your two as yet unmentioned friends so it is not
as if it was still an active topic of discussion in this
subthread.

>> 1) It is not that well known to the medical community
other
>> than how it is known to the regular community - book
covers
>> and the popular press. There has not been nearly as much
>> research on it as many suggest - especially when you
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>     While it is true that doctors are shamefully deficient in
> training about nutrition - not their fault but that of
medical
> schools -  I have never over the past 10 years met a
doctor that is
> not quite familiar with the Atkins diet, by name.  Of
course, this is
> in the States - perhaps you are from elsewhere where it is
not so
> common?

Until very recently there has hardly been anything to teach
in medical schools about the Atkins diet and there isn't
that much even now. It has nothing to do with whether their
training is in general adequate or not.

>> 4) Mentioning it is kind of a cleap shot (more accurately
an
>> ad hominem attack). How I spell it really has no bearing
on
>> whether it works. There are a number of cheap shots I
could
>> take at Atkins but I have refrained from doing so for
>> similar reasons.
>
>     Let me explain my concern.  Often someone dismisses someone or
> their idea by misspelling/mispronouncing their name, and I
had no way
> of knowing whether this was the case here.  Whether or not
you are
> familiar with it, it was correctly spelled in the post to
which you
> responded - once you saw a discrepancy, a quick check
would have
> confirmed that easily enough.  Also, if we discuss
something here and
> someone wants to research it, especially online, the
correct spelling
> of the name becomes quite important.  I don't understand
why being
> corrected got you so huffy, when as a doctor - and I have read your
> posts and know this to be true - you understand precision in names is
> important in your field.

I don't question your pointing out the correct spelling. I
agree that it was a point worth making. However, the
personal attack that was attached to it contributed nothing
to what I assume are the points you are interested in
making. I also note that even after I mentioned it in my
last post you came back in this post and did it at least two
more times.

I think I have been pretty reasonable in stating that it is
an idea with some backing in theory and has had some
positive results in studies. I even pointed out that one
widely held contraindication to the diet (and concern with
it) may not be valid. I never suggested that a prson should
not give it a try. I don't think the text of what I have
typed supports your concerns of dismissivemess at all.
However, there are areas of concern that have not been
adequately evaluated it. I'm sorry if my pointing them out
to you angers you. I'm also sorry if nothing short of
enthusiatically embracing it is acceptable to you.

>     As for your noting that you could take cheap shots at the diet -
> I enjoy a discourse on subjects which interest me, even if
the other
> person does not agree with my view point.  But simply
taking "cheap
> shots" at something would be more a reflection on you than
on the
> program.

I agree. That is my point.

I have in no way insulted you, Atkins, or the people who
follow his diet. I have not suggested that there is any
group of people that should not follow his diet and have
stated explicitly that it may be worth a try. My entry into
this discussion was mainly to say that cholesterol levels
should be followed while on it because the diet's effect on
lipids has had conflicting results. You, on the other hand,
have insulted me personally more than once and the medical
profession in general at least once. I would advise you to
heed your own advice.

>     This has been an interesting discussion.  But as I've made my
> points, more than once, and it appears at the brink of des
cending
> into a less civil level, I'll stop here.  I like this
forum as a
> source of information, but I'm not comfortable with how
easily some
> of its members take offense if they are questioned on
'touchy' areas.
> Problem is, no one knows which area is 'touchy' until they
get flamed.

No has been flamed and you are the only one insulting other
people. As a rule of thumb - if someone has been 'touchy'
and too easily offended it is generally the one who has
gotten off of the topic at hand and started making personal
attacks.

Signature

CBI, MD

Katilist - 24 May 2004 03:13 GMT
   CBI, this is why I don't post frequently to this group.  I find certain
'regulars' have a need to always be right and have the last word, no matter how
compelling evidence or argument is to the contrary.  I'm tired of making the
same points over and over in this thread only to have you argue semantics and
minutia, and ignore fact.  I can't even post about the original nature of the
thread or your mistaken claim of a 'cheap shot' without you attacking it and my
motives.

   Fine.  You be 'right', and I'm sure you'll want to have the last word on
this, but do it by yourself.  You may be a doctor (or may not, for that
matter), albiet an arrogant one but contrary to many doctors' beliefs you are
not God - and you don't always have all the facts, though you like to pretend
so.

   Now go ahead and explain to everyone once again how someone else is a churl
for getting frustrated with you.

WolfKat  ^..^  >^^<

If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.
-Catherine Aird
CBI - 24 May 2004 04:21 GMT
>     CBI, this is why I don't post frequently to this group.  I find
> certain 'regulars' have a need to always be right and have
the last
> word, no matter how compelling evidence or argument is to
the
> contrary.  I'm tired of making the same points over and
over in this
> thread only to have you argue semantics and minutia, and
ignore fact.
> I can't even post about the original nature of the thread
or your
> mistaken claim of a 'cheap shot' without you attacking it and my
> motives.
>
>     Fine.  You be 'right', and I'm sure you'll want to have the last
> word on this, but do it by yourself.  You may be a doctor
(or may
> not, for that matter), albiet an arrogant one but contrary
to many
> doctors' beliefs you are not God - and you don't always
have all the
> facts, though you like to pretend so.
>
>     Now go ahead and explain to everyone once again how someone else
> is a churl for getting frustrated with you.

You were right. The thread did become less civil.

Signature

CBI, MD

Meghan Noecker - 27 May 2004 10:17 GMT
>    CBI, this is why I don't post frequently to this group.  I find certain
>'regulars' have a need to always be right and have the last word, no matter how
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>thread or your mistaken claim of a 'cheap shot' without you attacking it and my
>motives.

I thought it was actually a decent discussion. I learned some from
both sides. We need good discussions that argue the points from both
sides. Otherwise, we can't learn.

Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
Bob - 28 May 2004 15:11 GMT
>I thought it was actually a decent discussion. I learned some from
>both sides. We need good discussions that argue the points from both
>sides. Otherwise, we can't learn.

More Evidence Supports Low-Carbohydrate Diet  

Bottom Line:

A low-carbohydrate diet may reduce weight to a greater extent than a
low-fat diet in the short term, but this advantage appears to
disappear by one year.

A low-carbohydrate diet may produce some lasting improvements in lipid
profiles when compared with a low-fat diet.

May 17, 2004  Two randomized trials reported in the May 18 issue of
the Annals of Internal Medicine further support the efficacy of a
low-carbohydrate diet. A six-month trial showed higher participation
and greater weight loss, and a 12-month study showed similar weight
loss but better lipid profile than with a conventional diet. The
editorialist uses findings from both studies to advise physicians and
patients.

"This diet can be quite powerful. We found that the low-carb diet was
more effective for weight loss," lead author Will Yancy, MD, from Duke
University Medical Center and the Veterans Affairs Medical Center in
Durham, North Carolina, says in a news release. "We also found
cholesterol levels seemed to improve more on a low-carb diet compared
to a low-fat diet."

In this study, which is the first randomized controlled trial of an
Atkins-style diet, 120 study participants were assigned to a
low-carbohydrate, high-protein diet or a low-fat, low-cholesterol,
low-calorie diet.

The low-carbohydrate group (<20 g/day) was allowed daily unlimited
calories, animal foods (meat, fowl, fish, and shellfish), and eggs, as
well as 4 oz of hard cheese, two cups of salad vegetables (lettuce,
spinach, or celery) and one cup of low-carbohydrate vegetables
(broccoli, cauliflower, or squash). They also received daily
nutritional supplements including a multivitamin, essential oils, an
Atkins diet formulation, and chromium picolinate.

The low-fat, low-cholesterol, low-calorie group received less than 30%
of daily caloric intake from fat, less than 10% of calories from
saturated fat, and less than 300 mg cholesterol daily. They were
advised to restrict daily calories by 500 to 1,000 calories less than
their maintenance diet.

At study entry, all subjects were between 18 and 65 years of age and
in generally good health, with a body mass index (BMI) between 30 and
60, and a total cholesterol level greater than 200 mg/dL. None had
dieted or used weight loss medications in the previous six months. All
subjects were encouraged to exercise 30 minutes at least three times
per week and had regular group meetings at an outpatient research
clinic for six months.

The study was completed by 76% of participants in the low-carbohydrate
diet group and by 57% of participants in the low-fat diet group (P =
.02). At six months, weight loss was -12.9% in the low-carbohydrate
diet group and -6.7% in the low-fat diet group (P < .001).

In both groups, loss of fat mass (change, -9.4 kg with the
low-carbohydrate diet vs. -4.8 kg with the low-fat diet) was greater
than loss of fat-free mass (change, -3.3 kg vs. -2.4 kg,
respectively). Compared with the low-fat diet group, the
low-carbohydrate diet group had greater decreases in serum
triglyceride levels (change, -0.84 mmol/L vs. -0.31 mmol/L [-74.2
mg/dL vs. -27.9 mg/dL]; P = .004) and greater increases in
high-density lipoprotein [HDL] cholesterol levels (0.14 mmol/L vs.
-0.04 mmol/L [5.5 mg/dL vs. -1.6 mg/dL]; P < .001).

Changes in low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol level were not
significantly different between groups (0.04 mmol/L [1.6 mg/dL] with
the low-carbohydrate diet and -0.19 mmol/L [-7.4 mg/dL with the
low-fat diet; P = .2). However, participants in the low-carbohydrate
diet group had more minor adverse effects, such as constipation and
headaches, than did patients in the low-fat diet group.

Study limitations include inability to distinguish effects of the
low-carbohydrate diet and those of the nutritional supplements
provided only to that group, and use of healthy participants followed
for only 24 weeks, limiting generalizability of the study results.

The authors are currently testing whether a low-carbohydrate diet can
improve glycemic control in diabetes. However, they warn that patients
with medical conditions such as diabetes and hypertension or who use
diuretics should not begin a low-carbohydrate diet without close
medical supervision, because the diet affects hydration and blood
glucose levels. Nor do they recommend an Atkins-type diet for
individuals attempting to lose weight for the first time.

"Over six months the diet appears relatively safe, but we need to
study the safety for longer durations," Dr. Yancy says, noting
potential long-term health risks including elevations in LDL
cholesterol, bone loss, or kidney stones.

The Robert C. Atkins Foundation funded this research. The study
authors have no financial interest in Atkins Nutritionals, Inc.

In the second study, by Linda Stern, MD, from the Philadelphia
Veterans Affairs Medical Center in Pennsylvania, and colleagues, 132
obese adults were randomized to receive counseling to either restrict
carbohydrate intake to less than 30 g per day (low-carbohydrate diet)
or to restrict caloric intake by 500 calories per day with less than
30% of calories from fat (conventional diet). At baseline, BMI was at
least 35 kg/m2, and 83% of participants had diabetes or metabolic
syndrome.

By one year, mean weight change was -5.1 ± 8.7 kg in the
low-carbohydrate diet group and -3.1 ± 8.4 kg in the conventional diet
group (difference, -1.9 kg; 95% confidence interval [CI], -4.9 to 1.0
kg; P = .20). The low-carbohydrate diet group fared better in terms of
greater decrease in triglyceride levels (P = .044) and less decrease
in HDL cholesterol levels (P = .025).

In the subgroup of 54 persons with diabetes, hemoglobin A1c levels
improved more with the low-carbohydrate diet, but the difference was
not statistically significant in sensitivity analyses. Both groups had
similar changes in other lipids and in insulin sensitivity.

Study limitations include high dropout rate of 34% and suboptimal
dietary adherence.

"Despite modest overall weight loss in both diet groups, assignment to
the low-carbohydrate group had a direct and more favorable effect on
triglyceride level, HDL cholesterol level, and glycemic control in the
smaller subgroup of patients with diabetes," the authors write. "These
findings give further evidence that restriction of carbohydrates in
obese persons, who may be overconsuming carbohydrates at baseline, may
have favorable metabolic effects. Caution is still needed, however, in
recommending a low-carbohydrate diet, as important concerns remain."

The Veterans Affairs Healthcare Network supported this study. The
authors report no potential financial conflicts of interest.

"We can no longer dismiss very-low-carbohydrate diets," Walter C.
Willett, MD, DrPH, from the Harvard School of Public Health in Boston,
Massachusetts, writes in an accompanying editorial.

"We can encourage overweight patients to experiment with various
methods for weight control, including reduced-carbohydrate diets, as
long as they emphasize healthy sources of fat and protein and
incorporate regular physical activity," he concludes. "Patients should
focus on finding ways to eat that they can maintain indefinitely
rather than seeking diets that promote rapid weight loss. For many
patients, the roll will have little role."

Dr. Willett served as an unpaid consultant on a grant by the Atkins
Foundation.

Ann Intern Med. 2004;140:769-777, 778-785, 836-837

Clinical Context

Obesity has reached epidemic proportions in the U.S., and many
patients are desperate to find a solution to help them lose weight.
The strategy of low-carbohydrate dieting has been espoused by a
growing number of obese individuals, and their choice is validated
with some evidence of efficacy. In a six-month analysis published in
the May 22, 2003, issue of the New England Journal of Medicine
involving the same patient cohort currently reexamined at one year by
Stern and colleagues, a low-carbohydrate diet was associated with
greater weight loss and improved triglyceride levels, insulin
sensitivity, and glycemic control when compared with a low-fat diet.

An editorial by Willett that accompanies the current study by Stern
cautions that the improved short-term weight gain associated with
low-carbohydrate diets when compared with low-fat diets has generally
not been shown to be significantly different at one year. He also
notes that weight is not the only area to be scrutinized with
low-carbohydrate diets. Low-carbohydrate diets have been demonstrated
to have favorable effects on the lipid profile and insulin sensitivity
that could improve health outcomes in obese adults.

Two studies in the current issue of the Annals of Internal Medicine
compare the effects of low-carbohydrate vs. low-fat diets.

Study Highlights

Yancy article:
Subjects were primarily white, well-educated, and female. The average
BMI was slightly greater than 34 kg/m2, and all participants had
hyperlipidemia. Patients using prescription medication other than
thyroid replacement or female hormonal treatments were excluded.
Diet interventions were accomplished using group counseling sessions.
Participants in the low-carbohydrate diet group were instructed to
initially limit carbohydrate to less than 20 g per day and then add 5
g of carbohydrate per day later. The low-fat diet group was instructed
to reduce caloric intake by 500 to 1,000 kcal per day, derive less
than 30% of these calories from fat, and consume less than 300 mg of
cholesterol per day.

The main study outcomes were weight loss and weight loss derived from
fat over a 6-month period. Metabolic parameters were also followed.
120 subjects were randomized, and 76% and 57% of the low-carbohydrate
and low-fat diet subjects, respectively, completed the study.

Mean weight loss was 12 kg in the low-carbohydrate diet group at the
end of the study compared with 6.5 kg in the low-fat diet group.

Fat mass was reduced by 9.4 kg in the low-carbohydrate diet group
compared with a reduction of 4.8 kg in the low-fat diet group.

Triglyceride and HDL cholesterol levels were significantly improved in
the low-carbohydrate diet group compared with the low-fat diet group.
Mean LDL cholesterol levels were similar between the 2 groups,
although 2 subjects in the low-carbohydrate diet group stopped the
study because of increased LDL levels.

More subjects in the low-carbohydrate diet group experienced adverse
events, the most common of which were constipation, headache,
halitosis, and muscle cramps.

Stern article:
Subjects included adults with a BMI of 35 kg/m2 or greater without
significant renal or hepatic disease.

Participants were randomized to either a low-carbohydrate diet, which
limited carbohydrate intake to less than 30 g per day, or a low-fat
diet, in which less than 30% of calories were derived from fat and
overall caloric intake was reduced by 500 kcal per day. These
interventions were implemented through weekly counseling sessions for
4 weeks, and then monthly sessions for 11 months.

The main study outcome was weight change, and subjects were also
followed for effects on serum lipids, insulin sensitivity, and
glycemic control.

More than 80% of study participants were men and had either metabolic
syndrome or diabetes.

20 of 64 original subjects in the low-carbohydrate diet group dropped
out of the study prior to one year compared with 25 of 68 patients in
the low-fat diet group.

Both intervention groups had reduced average daily caloric intake by
one year to similar levels. The low-carbohydrate diet group had
reduced carbohydrate intake by 52% at one year.

Although patients in the low-carbohydrate diet group had lost
significantly more weight than the low-fat diet group by 6 months,
they averaged no more weight loss during the following 6 months and
had a mean one-year weight loss of 5.1 kg. This was statistically
similar to the one-year mean weight loss of 3.1 kg for patients in the
low-fat diet group, whose mean weight decreased steadily during the
trial.

Total and LDL cholesterol levels were fairly stable in both
intervention groups at one year, and the difference between treatment
groups was not significant. However, triglyceride and HDL cholesterol
levels were more improved in the low-carbohydrate diet group compared
with the low-fat diet group.

Serum glucose levels and insulin sensitivity were similar between the
diet groups at one year, although hemoglobin A1c improvements in
subjects with diabetes in the low-carbohydrate diet group narrowly
missed statistical significance.
CBI - 29 May 2004 20:08 GMT
> >I thought it was actually a decent discussion. I learned some from
> >both sides. We need good discussions that argue the points from both
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> A low-carbohydrate diet may produce some lasting improvements in lipid
> profiles when compared with a low-fat diet.

I guess I can delete that edition of medscape from my inbox.
I had it saved to read and probably post here but you neat
me to it. The articles pretty much confirm what we had
discussed.

Signature

CBI, MD

Joy - 24 May 2004 04:00 GMT
Not my field but.

I have personally had less reflux problems on a high protein diet and lost
more than I would have on Pritkin (which results in tiredness and hunger)
but I have no real expiation for the success other than we are all
different. So when I don't die of whatever, we maybe can throw out the
apparently flawed Framingham Heart study which resulted in this mess. Not
that I have any expertise than to be involved in what I consider to be
another flawed heart study.

Joy

> > <snip>
> >> Maybe the maintenance stage
[quoted text clipped - 173 lines]
> gotten off of the topic at hand and started making personal
> attacks.
CBI - 24 May 2004 04:30 GMT
> Not my field but.
>
> I have personally had less reflux problems on a high protein diet and
> lost more than I would have on Pritkin (which results in
tiredness
> and hunger) but I have no real expiation for the success
other than
> we are all different.

That doesn't suprise me. Of course, it will be hard to tell
if the decreased reflux was from the wieght loss or the
composition of the diet. If it is working for you then it is
mostly an academic issue. If you read back through this
exchange I never suggested that Atkins didn't work or that
anyone should not try it (actually I said jus the opposite).
I just pointed out some issues that have not been settled
that people might want to look out for (like avoiding all
those Atkins friendly snacks).

> So when I don't die of whatever, we maybe can
> throw out the apparently flawed Framingham Heart study
which resulted
> in this mess. Not that I have any expertise than to be
involved in
> what I consider to be another flawed heart study.

The Framingham study is fine. It is a survey of several
factors, mostly dietary, and cardiac outcomes. It has
established a lot of usefull correlations. The problems stem
from the fact that correlation does not prove causation.
Some people have drawn conclusions that turned out not to be
simple as they seemed at first. A good example is the one
that katalist brought up. They noticed that people who ate
less fat had less heart disease and recommended that peole
eat less fact. Where they screwed up was in not realizing
that different fats have different effects and less is not
always better. That isn't a flaw in the study. It is a flaw
in the way the results were applied and in not validating
conclusions properly. The joke is that I now find the same
person vilifying me for arguing against making the exact
same mistake.

Signature

CBI, MD

Joy - 24 May 2004 13:40 GMT
> > Not my field but.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> that people might want to look out for (like avoiding all
> those Atkins friendly snacks).

No, my experience is that I still have reflux issues if I cheat and eat
something on the do not eat list (white carbs like sugar or flour). That
would not be what you would expect if slow digestion of fat were responsible
for the disorder. And of course on the weight loss side, I find low carbing
easier to deal with. On low fat, I was so hungry I couldn't sleep, and I
would give up after a couple of months with only a small weight loss due to
being so TIRED. I agree about avoiding Frankenfoods. They are really
expensive additionally.

> > So when I don't die of whatever, we maybe can
> > throw out the apparently flawed Framingham Heart study
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> in the way the results were applied and in not validating
> conclusions properly.

The resulting decades of IMHO bad diet advice that came from the incorrect
application of conclusions of the Framingham study then. Same difference if
you are on the consumer side. It was flawed advice. One of the low carb
books I read by a doc in California, and I can't recall the name of the
author this AM, stated that her type 2 patients who had been placed on low
fat diets, had less success in controlling their diabetis than the ones who
"cheated" and ate meat. So, although Akins and South Beach diets are
designed by Cardiologists, there are docs in other medical fields who have
started recommending low carb to their patients because they see the
advantages. I will see if I can find that information.

The joke is that I now find the same
> person vilifying me for arguing against making the exact
> same mistake.

I have no clue what you are talking about.

Joy
Meghan Noecker - 27 May 2004 10:24 GMT
>anyone should not try it (actually I said jus the opposite).
>I just pointed out some issues that have not been settled
>that people might want to look out for (like avoiding all
>those Atkins friendly snacks).

I would also be careful with anything trying to join the bandwagon as
low-carb.

For example, low carb wraps. These are popular with the low carb
dieters, and they have been selling well. But the store where I work
just informed us that the 6 wraps with 8 net carbs or less are
actually 8-12 carbs. They had us take down the signs advertising he 8
carbs, but I have yet to see any notices to inform the customers of
the truth. So, all these people are still buying the sandwiches,
thinking they are lower, and they don't realize they may be messing up
their diet.

Also, the wraps have small portions, so the price is the same, yet you
get less than half the meat of a regular sandwich. It's cheaper to buy
your wrap and make your own sandwich.

Personally, I am embarrassed to sell them. I wouldn't mind if poeple
knew the portions were lower (or the price was lower), and if the
customers knew the correct carb count. I really believe the company
should have put up notices to correct the false claim. But then, this
may have been their plan all along.

Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
CBI - 29 May 2004 20:22 GMT
> Personally, I am embarrassed to sell them. I wouldn't mind if poeple
> knew the portions were lower (or the price was lower), and if the
> customers knew the correct carb count. I really believe the company
> should have put up notices to correct the false claim. But then, this
> may have been their plan all along.

That is on of the points I was trying to make. The problem
with diets is that when they become popular the food
industry changes the landscape. Atkins is just now entering
the phase the the low fat theories were in a few decades
ago.

When the Framingham (and other) data first indicated that
eating less fat was healthier there were no margarines and
other examples of less healthy foods with lower fats. In
that environment if you wanted to eat less fat you just had
to cut back on the lard, butter, and red meat. Even knowing
what we know today (which is still in a state of flux) this
seems like good advice. The problem was that as the low fat
concept became popular the food industry started comming out
with low fat foods that turned out to not such a great idea.
Some were sweet and still had a lot of calories (bascially
substituted carbs for fat) and some substituted other forms
of fat that turned out to be even less healthy. The idea of
low fat is still not a bad one - it is just that we know to
be more careful about which fats to eat as well.

Atkins is now in a similar possition. In terms of wieght
loss it has shown some superiority in the short term (3-6
mos)  and is probably just as about as good in the longer
term (most studies suggest equal, some suggest worse). As
weight management is a life long issue it would be nice to
see data for longer than a year, but I am sure that will
come. The problem is that as the diet becomes popular the
whole landscape is changing. Losing wieght in the
environment of a year or two ago, where you were forced to
restrict choices (including not eating out much or
snacking), will likely be different than in the current
environment where every popular restaurant offers a variety
of choices and the supermarkets are stocked with snacks that
are "friendly" to the diet.

Signature

CBI, MD

Meghan Noecker - 30 May 2004 08:45 GMT
>> Personally, I am embarrassed to sell them. I wouldn't mind
>if poeple
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>the phase the the low fat theories were in a few decades
>ago.

Exactly. To make any of the diets work, you still have to be very
careful and do your own homework. I see people every day who think
they are on the Atkin's diet, and they are ruining their diet without
realizing it. I had somebody the other day who wanted a chinese meal,
but no rice or chow mein because she is on the atkin's diet. I told
her that we have nothing that would qualify for the diet, but she
insisted. She chose an entree that is deep fried with a light batter
on it. I told her it had a batter. She didn't care. And it is one of
the sweetest entrees as well (tons of sugar). Her second entree was
also high in sugar. And she took the eggroll.

I feel really bad for people. They take a diet, which is being
promoted differently than the orginal diet was intended. Simplified to
sound really easy. And then people fall for it.

I have a friend who did very well on the diet, but he read the book
and actually followed the diet. This was before it became the rage.
Now, we have a lobby full of special snacks and products. And a lot of
people blindly following the commercialized diet rather than the real
one.

And the companies are raking in the money.

Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
 
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