Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Asthma / May 2004
Anybody with sleep apnea? Need advice
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Meghan Noecker - 17 May 2004 11:21 GMT I have a friend with sleep apnea. He cannot use the cpap machine as it causes extreme panic for him. Instead, he was fitted with a dental guard, but he is having trouble with that too.
I'm hoping somebody here might have some advice for him. I told him I would ask here since many people with asthma also have sleep apnea. I expect I will too as my mom does, and I already snore.
So, here's the problem. He has a dental guard specificially for sleep apnea. He is sleeping better with it, but it is so tight that it rubs his gums, and he ends up aching all day. The dentist said he could tighten it, but not loosen it. And it is supposed to be tight.
Any suggestions for ways to make it work without causing him to have sore gums all day, every day? He likes being able to sleep, but now he hurts all day.
Also, he's given up on the CPAP machine, but since it is more ideal than the dental guard, I'd be interested in knowing if there is a way to reduce the pressure. Apparentlty, it blows so hard that it makes pressure in the nose, and he has to swallow a lot. So he stays awake. He tried to take tranquilizers to see if that would work, but between the face mask freaking him out (he's claustrophobic) and the pressure keeping him awake, he can't use the machine and get a decent night's sleep. My mom uses the machine, but she's never had any trouble with it, so she had no suggestions.
Thank you very much.
Meghan & the Zoo Crew Equine and Pet Photography http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
nonerequired - 17 May 2004 15:53 GMT You might try alt.support.sleep-disorder for more information.
Pressure CAN be turned down, BUT you will need the Dr. to approve it and a technician to do the job. Less pressure will be less optimal but if this allows him to become accustomed to the device first, then it can be stepped up slowly. There is generally a "ramp" setting that allows the pressure to build up to the full set level allowing (hopefully) sleep to come before pressure reaches full level. Experienced users seldom use it but new users often do. Engage this feature at maximal level.
Lots of people feel claustrophobic with the mask. There are alternatives; nasal pillows are less obtrusive and confining and could be tried. It is also worthwhile to try wearing the "nose piece" and headgear WITHOUT hose and pressure for awhile before bed just to allow the body to get accustomed to it. If that is too much start JUST with headgear and then work up. Try to relax while using it. Listen to some nice music, breathe deeply, that sort of thing.
He probably should use the dental appliance and the CPAP at the same time but I'd ask a sleep tech or Dr. about that.
(I used to set CPAP's up but it's been years so masks have probably changed a bit)
Fritz Merkel; Respiratory Care Practitioner Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America-WA Branch
Meghan Noecker - 17 May 2004 20:45 GMT >You might try alt.support.sleep-disorder for more information. Thanks. I also posted there and did some looking through the archives.
>Pressure CAN be turned down, BUT you will need the Dr. to approve it and a >technician to do the job. Less pressure will be less optimal but if this allows [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >level. Experienced users seldom use it but new users often do. Engage this >feature at maximal level. He mentions a friend who had the machine before, so I don't know know whether it has been readjusted for him. Until looking this stuff up, I didn't know it was individualized. I suspect he doesn't know either, and has assumed it set right but doesn't work for him, and that it cannot be changed. It does have the ramp feature. He likes at the lower setting, but says it keeps him awake at the full setting.
I will give him the information tonight, so he can get that machine reset and try it again.
>Lots of people feel claustrophobic with the mask. There are alternatives; nasal >pillows are less obtrusive and confining and could be tried. It is also [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Fritz Merkel; Respiratory Care Practitioner >Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America-WA Branch Meghan & the Zoo Crew Equine and Pet Photography http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
nonerequired - 17 May 2004 22:42 GMT Yes, pressure settings are individualized. He SHOULD have either gone to a sleep lab and had a sleep test and a CPAP pressure setting, or sometimes a home care agency brings a unit out and setting is done by slow increases via interaction with a technician until an optimal setting has been established. This is validated with a home test after setting (usually). Both methods are about as reliable if the parties know what they are doing.
If he got a used unit from someone else, and not had it reset for his particular pressure needs it probably is set up wrong. Pressure setting is roughly a function of weight and neck size, the higher/bigger the more pressure is generally needed. There is an optimal for each person. Neither higher or lower is desirable.
Getting used to pressure in the teens can be difficult. It may be best to start him off about 5 cm H20 and work up.
BTW, he can also try getting used to it by just sitting in a chair and not even trying to sleep.
Fritz
Richard Friedel - 19 May 2004 07:34 GMT > I have a friend with sleep apnea. He cannot use the cpap machine as it > causes extreme panic for him. Instead, he was fitted with a dental > guard, but he is having trouble with that too. Not to forget the basic physiology. The scientific literature ALSO speaks of "hypocapnic sleep anpeas", i.e. due to excessive carbon dioxide loss. The body does not like getting respiratory alkalosis and stops breathing for a matter of seconds. This would be food for thought and a reason for sticking to nose breathing if possible. As somebody with a tendency to mouth breathing, I use a piece of adhesive tape of a suitable size so that it comes off easily.
The cpap stuff seems to be a prime example of disease mongering dreamed up by some tycoon as a business scheme, not a really scientific notion, thanks to the high success rate for self-fulfilling prophecies in the health sector. See Selling sickness: the pharmaceutical industry and disease mongering" by Ray Moynihan, Iona Heath, David Henry, BMJ, vol. 324, April, 13.2002 http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/324/7342/886. Kind regards to and your horses, Richard Friedel
nonerequired - 19 May 2004 19:17 GMT > Not to forget the basic physiology. The scientific literature ALSO > speaks of "hypocapnic sleep anpeas", i.e. due to excessive carbon > dioxide loss. The body does not like getting respiratory alkalosis > and stops breathing for a matter of seconds. This would be food for > thought and a reason for sticking to nose breathing if possible. In obstructive sleep apnea the upper airway is collapsed. Tape is just another level of obstruction. The hypocapnic sleep apneas you refer to is thought to be a temporary "over shoot" of excessive breathing in response to prolonged apnea. This causes the apnea > hypocapnea > apnea cycle to continue.
As
> somebody with a tendency to mouth breathing, I use a piece of adhesive > tape of a suitable size so that it comes off easily. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/324/7342/886. Kind regards > to and your horses, Richard Friedel I doubt it. The problem has been around a lot longer than the recent CPAP "cure". "pickwickian syndrome" comes from the Dickens character Mr. Pickwick who probably had sleep apnea. Before CPAP people with life threatening CPAP had no real recourse except tracheostomy.
I doubt any waking breathing exercises will do any good while asleep.
Fritz Merkel; Respiratory Care Practitioner Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America-WA Branch
Katilist - 21 May 2004 08:31 GMT Not to substitute for good advice on devices, 2 friends of mine ended their sleep apnea by losing a lot of weight (over 50 lbs each). If your friend is overweight (not everyone with apnea is, but a large percentage are grossly obese and obesity is strongly related to developing this condition), I suggest he develop a plan with his doctor to effect permanent weight loss through changes in diet and lifestyle.
WolfKat ^..^ >^^<
If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning. -Catherine Aird
Meghan Noecker - 21 May 2004 08:59 GMT > Not to substitute for good advice on devices, 2 friends of mine ended their >sleep apnea by losing a lot of weight (over 50 lbs each). If your friend is >overweight (not everyone with apnea is, but a large percentage are grossly >obese and obesity is strongly related to developing this condition), I suggest >he develop a plan with his doctor to effect permanent weight loss through >changes in diet and lifestyle. Yes, he is morbidly obese. I don't know what all he has done for weight loss discussions with his doctor, but he has changed his diet. It could still use some improvements, and I doubt he has added any exercise, but hopefully he will.I really don't want to say too much and push him away.
Meghan & the Zoo Crew Equine and Pet Photography http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
nonerequired - 22 May 2004 00:18 GMT Weight loss for anyone obese is a good idea. It's a tough road though, success if pretty poor even without sleep apnea. I've never seen anyone with untreated OSA lose wt. I HAVE seen treated persons lose wt. sometimes significant amounts. I haven't seen any males lose enough wt. to get off CPAP, although pressure is often reduced. I have seen a few females lose enough wt. to get off completely.
There seems to be some hormonal wt. protection for females. My experience has only seen morbidly obese females with OSA, while a few poor skinny guys get it but in general they are overwt. also. Post menopausal women lose this protection.
I'd suggest, treat first, get feeling a bit better with more energy, then tackle wt. loss.
Fritz
Katilist - 22 May 2004 08:06 GMT I agree, Fritz - the lack of energy presents a catch-22 in weight loss. My friends both lost their bulk on Atkins, a plan on which it is pretty much impossible NOT to lose weight IF you can stick to the program. The one was a woman who had recently had surgery on a knee blown out by her obese state. She was in no condition to exercise yet desperately needed to lose weight.
If anyone wants to go on Atkins, I recommend getting a physical and a doctor's okay first, and doing it under a doctor's care. It has the advantage of being a program that works even for people who start with zero energy, but it's not for everyone.
Fritz wrote:
>Weight loss for anyone obese is a good idea. It's a tough road though, >success [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >tackle >wt. loss. WolfKat ^..^ >^^<
If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning. -Catherine Aird
CBI - 22 May 2004 21:29 GMT > I agree, Fritz - the lack of energy presents a catch-22 in weight > loss. My friends both lost their bulk on Atkins, a plan on which it
> is pretty much impossible NOT to lose weight IF you can stick to the
> program. The one was a woman who had recently had surgery on a knee
> blown out by her obese state. She was in no condition to exercise
> yet desperately needed to lose weight. > > If anyone wants to go on Atkins, I recommend getting a physical > and a doctor's okay first, and doing it under a doctor's care. It
> has the advantage of being a program that works even for people who
> start with zero energy, but it's not for everyone. It will be interesting to see how Adkins hold up with its popularity. The studies that showed significant weight loss on Adkins also showed that the people ate fewer calories. When you look at what they ate a big difference was that in general they ate less variety of foods and specifically they didn't snack as the most common tempting snack foods are not permitted. Many of the past fad diets were ititially successful and then eventually fell out of favor becasue they relied on dietary choice restriction of some kind. Further supporting this suspicion is that when you look at the longer term (1 years arather than 3 months) the Adkins dieters regained more of their lost weight back )afyter losing more) so that at 1 year there was not much difference from conventional dieting. it is suspected that people either started to cheat or learned more variety of Adkins compatible foods.
These days companies are starting to produce Adkins compatible snack foods and other products so it will be interesting to see if people still see the weight loss now while snacking more and generally having more choices.
Also, some caution should be used and a physician should be involved since, contrary to the claims of proponents, some studies have suggested worsening lipid panels on similar diets.
 Signature CBI, MD
Katilist - 23 May 2004 10:15 GMT >It will be interesting to see how Adkins hold up with its >popularity. Well, considering that it came out some 30 years ago, I'd say it's holding up pretty well... Also consider that this includes the intense bashing of well-meaning nutritionists who insisted for years that low-fat diets containing things like margarine (now known to be a severe artery-clogger) were better, based not on studies but on their own 'intuition'.
> The studies that showed significant weight loss >on Adkins also showed that the people ate fewer calories. Not all studies show this. It's been proven that low-carb diets *are* more satisfying and produce a full feeling, so that dieters can eat less and feel full. But it's also been shown that a low-carb diet, particularly one low in such high-glycemic items such as sugar and high-fructose corn syrup) tends to lead to weight loss and stabilizing even if the patient consumes more calories overall.
>Further supporting this suspicion is that when you look at >the longer term (1 years arather than 3 months) the Adkins >dieters regained more of their lost weight back )afyter >losing more) so that at 1 year there was not much difference >from conventional dieting. Also not true. The latest year-long study showed that while initial weight loss occurred faster on the Atkins diet, dieters using a conventional low-fat approach eventually caught up with them by the one-year mark. Indications were that Atkins was possibly a good approach when quicker weight-loss was needed, but longer-term results looked about the same.
It should be noted that as a dieter progresses on Atkins, "good" carbs such as vegetables are increased and weight loss is *expected* to slow. The severe carb restriction at the initial stage is not for the sake of nutrition, but to break cravings for refined carbs (flour and the like) and sugar and to give the patient a 'win' at the outset to encourage them to keep going.
The trouble with *any* type of weight loss plan, fad or not, is putting the weight back on once one has erached the goal and stopped the plan. The entire lifestyle still has to be changed. One thing about Atkins is that it does, should the patient follow it, gradually ease restrictions and continue to give guidance about food choices, until by the maintenance stage the person is in a much healthier eating pattern, hopefully for life. The reason Atkins is being hailed lately is that so many doctors of cardiac and diabetic patients have been seeing those patients do much better and last longer on Atkins than on the old draconian low-fat, low-meat approaches, and those doctors began requesting that longer-term studies be done.
>These days companies are starting to produce Adkins >compatible snack foods and other products so it will be >interesting to see if people still see the weight loss now >while snacking more and generally having more choices. This is something I am wondering about myself. To my own view, any food that is processed is suspect in weight gain - it just seems like malnutrition (and associated weight gain and lethargy) waiting to happen. I have no studies to back me up on this - it is only based on my personal experience.
My friends who went on Atkins not only didn't have health problems on it; they lowered their (bad) cholesterol and triglycerides to healthy levels, and my male friend, who is diabetic, was able to stop his insulin injections and blood pressure medication, aside from the benefit of finally getting a decent night's sleep. (Neither had a history of kidney disease, which would preclude going on Atkins.)
By the way, since you are an MD, I'm surprised that you consistently misspell the name of a diet that is extremely well-known in the medical community.
WolfKat ^..^ >^^<
If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning. -Catherine Aird
CBI - 23 May 2004 16:31 GMT >> It will be interesting to see how Adkins hold up with its >> popularity. > > Well, considering that it came out some 30 years ago, I'd say > it's holding up pretty well... It really has only been popular for a few years though. Like I said - that is likely to be the downfall of the diet is the marketting of a broad array of Atkins compatible foods, which si a recent developement.
>> Further supporting this suspicion is that when you look at
>> the longer term (1 years arather than 3 months) the Adkins
>> dieters regained more of their lost weight back )afyter >> losing more) so that at 1 year there was not much difference
>> from conventional dieting. > > Also not true. The latest year-long study showed that while > initial weight loss occurred faster on the Atkins diet, dieters using
> a conventional low-fat approach eventually caught up with them by the
> one-year mark. Indications were that Atkins was possibly a good
> approach when quicker weight-loss was needed, but longer-term results
> looked about the same. It sound slike we are talking about the same study. In it the Atkins people lost more weight at three months. By one year both groups had gained some of the weight back - i.e. they were heavier than they were at the three month mark - bu tthe Adkins people gained back more of their initial weight loss. Which is what I said the first time.
This study also showed that during the three month period the Adkins dieters ate fewer calories per day. It is considered the best study done to date. The studies suggesting that Adkins dieters lose more weight even whenconsuming more calories are small and not nearly as well done.
> It should be noted that as a dieter progresses on Atkins, "good" > carbs such as vegetables are increased and weight loss is *expected*
> to slow. The severe carb restriction at the initial stage is not for
> the sake of nutrition, but to break cravings for refined carbs (flour
> and the like) and sugar and to give the patient a 'win' at the outset
> to encourage them to keep going. But the weight loss did not just slow - it reversed back into weight gain.
> The trouble with *any* type of weight loss plan, fad or not, is > putting the weight back on once one has erached the goal and stopped
> the plan. But the people supposedly hadn't stopped the plan. The question that is unanswered is whether they had in reality stopped it (i.e. cheated) or if they learned to eat more while staying on the plan. If it is the former then the same problem will occur with any diet but more so with diets that take people into ways of eating that are harder to sustain. If it is the later then all these new food products will likely be the downfall of the diet by encouraging snacking and adding to the variety of foods available to eat.
> The entire lifestyle still has to be changed. One thing > about Atkins is that it does, should the patient follow it, gradually
> ease restrictions and continue to give guidance about food choices,
> until by the maintenance stage the person is in a much healthier
> eating pattern, hopefully for life. This raises a third possibility. Maybe the maintenance stage needs to be rethought.
> The reason Atkins is being > hailed lately is that so many doctors of cardiac and diabetic > patients have been seeing those patients do much better and last
> longer on Atkins than on the old draconian low-fat, low-meat
> approaches, and those doctors began requesting that longer-term
> studies be done. Anytime a diet becomes as popular as the Atkins diet, especially if the only data being offered is 3 month data, doctors will request longer term studies. All diets work in the short term. It is the long term that tends to kill them and so that is really where the money is as far as showing they are different.
I'n not saying Adkins may not turn out to be a good thing. There is some support for it in theory. However, the data are not nearly as strong as the proponents claim it is (really it is a bit concerning). I think when all is said and done there will need to be some tweaking, especially in the maintenance phase. Specifically they will have to put back in some measure of calorie counting (perhaps not counting calories per se - put some kind of protion control) as I don't think the "eat as much as you want as long as it is not carbs" idea will not hold up when people have a larger variety of foods and really warm up to the idea as may be happening after three months. They will probably also need to specifically warn against snacking - Atkins friendly or not. I also think the idea of "net carbs" needs to be a explored a bit more.
The good news is that it is a fairly sustainable diet - i.e. I think it is always going to relatively easy to substitute veggies for potatoes and pass on the dinner roll.
> My friends who went on Atkins not only didn't have health > problems on it; they lowered their (bad) cholesterol and > triglycerides to healthy levels, Like I said - the literature is conflicting on that point and so more needs to be done. The theory of the Atkins diet makes the most sense in a calorie deficient state where the fat has to be burned. In a calorie excess state, which is what is happening after three months when they are gaining weight back, especially if the carb restrictions have been loosened (and doubly so if they are cheating), the theory predicts an increase in cholesterol. So I would ask when in relation to the start of the diet the cholesterols were measured and if they were gaining or losing wieght at the time. If it was shortly after the start and/or they were losing wieght then the low cholesterol does not surprise me. I would be more concerned with the time period of 9-12 months after the start when the weight is creeping up (assuming it is - if not then they may not be typical Atkins dieters).
> and my male friend, who is diabetic, > was able to stop his insulin injections Well that makes sense. I have absolutely no doubt that any degree of carb restriction will reduce the need for diabetes meds. However, the biggest risk of death for diabetics is still from vascular diease and cholesterol levels are still a bigger risk for that than glycemic control so the concerns about cholesterols still stand. I will say that diabetes is a bit of a more complicated system since some of the lipid abnormalities are tied closely to the sugar problems so controlling the sugar will have a direct positive effect on the lipids independant of the effects of dietary fat.
> and blood pressure > medication, Weight loss from any diet will benefit blood pressure.
> aside from the benefit of finally getting a decent > night's sleep. Not sure what that is about unless sleep apnea was an issue.
> (Neither had a history of kidney disease, which would > preclude going on Atkins.) Funny you should mention that. Protein restriction in renal disease is not nearly as well supported in the literature as the average nephologist would let on.
> By the way, since you are an MD, I'm surprised that you > consistently misspell the name of a diet that is extremely well-known
> in the medical community. 1) It is not that well known to the medical community other than how it is known to the regular community - book covers and the popular press. There has not been nearly as much research on it as many suggest - especially when you consider that small observational studies tend to not get much notice in the medical literature.
2) When it is mentioned in the medical literature it is usually not referred to by the popular name.
3) I'm more much more concerned with whether and how it works than with how to spell the guy's name.
4) Mentioning it is kind of a cleap shot (more accurately an ad hominem attack). How I spell it really has no bearing on whether it works. There are a number of cheap shots I could take at Atkins but I have refrained from doing so for similar reasons.
 Signature CBI, MD
Katilist - 23 May 2004 19:17 GMT >It sound slike we are talking about the same study. <snip>
>But the weight loss did not just slow - it reversed back >into weight gain. Then it's not the same study. The recent study I read about showed no such thing. Atkins patients lost weight more rapidly for 6 months, not 3, at which point their weight loss slowed but did not reverse. The low-fat dieters caught up with them by the 1-year mark, having had weight loss that was slower initially but more steady. One might say it's the tortoise vs. hare approach.
<snip>
>Maybe the maintenance stage >needs to be rethought. While there may be truth in this, I'm not sure I entirely agree with your statement. A person is by definition no longer expected to lose weight in a 'maintenance' phase. Also one needs to take into account factors such as a need for increased exercise - it takes less effort to move a 185 lb. body than a 350 lb. one and exercise must be increased to make up for this. It may sound simple but it's surprising how many people never think of it.
<snip>
>So I would ask when in >relation to the start of the diet the cholesterols were [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >(assuming it is - if not then they may not be typical Atkins >dieters). Both have maintained the low cholesterol readings since they started the diet approximately 2 years ago, and 1 1/4 year ago respectively. Both confirmed that this morning.
<snip>
>> aside from the benefit of finally getting a decent >> night's sleep. > >Not sure what that is about unless sleep apnea was an issue. Um... it was the original reason for my posting about the Atkins diet - as a means for a morbidly obese person with little energy to still lose weight and possibly decrease or end sleep apnea, as my friends did. The thread was about sleep apnea. That was in fact the thread you responded to, so I'm not sure why you're not making the connection. Then again, I'm sure you're quite busy, so perhaps you've forgotten it.
<snip>
> Protein restriction in renal >disease is not nearly as well supported in the literature as >the average nephologist would let on. This may be true, but it's a rare doctor that will consider Atkins for his/her patient if one has kidney problems at the outset.
>1) It is not that well known to the medical community other >than how it is known to the regular community - book covers >and the popular press. There has not been nearly as much >research on it as many suggest - especially when you >consider that small observational studies tend to not get >much notice in the medical literature. While it is true that doctors are shamefully deficient in training about nutrition - not their fault but that of medical schools - I have never over the past 10 years met a doctor that is not quite familiar with the Atkins diet, by name. Of course, this is in the States - perhaps you are from elsewhere where it is not so common?
>4) Mentioning it is kind of a cleap shot (more accurately an >ad hominem attack). How I spell it really has no bearing on >whether it works. There are a number of cheap shots I could >take at Atkins but I have refrained from doing so for >similar reasons. Let me explain my concern. Often someone dismisses someone or their idea by misspelling/mispronouncing their name, and I had no way of knowing whether this was the case here. Whether or not you are familiar with it, it was correctly spelled in the post to which you responded - once you saw a discrepancy, a quick check would have confirmed that easily enough. Also, if we discuss something here and someone wants to research it, especially online, the correct spelling of the name becomes quite important. I don't understand why being corrected got you so huffy, when as a doctor - and I have read your posts and know this to be true - you understand precision in names is important in your field.
As for your noting that you could take cheap shots at the diet - I enjoy a discourse on subjects which interest me, even if the other person does not agree with my view point. But simply taking "cheap shots" at something would be more a reflection on you than on the program.
This has been an interesting discussion. But as I've made my points, more than once, and it appears at the brink of descending into a less civil level, I'll stop here. I like this forum as a source of information, but I'm not comfortable with how easily some of its members take offense if they are questioned on 'touchy' areas. Problem is, no one knows which area is 'touchy' until they get flamed.
WolfKat ^..^ >^^<
If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning. -Catherine Aird
CBI - 24 May 2004 01:38 GMT > <snip> >> Maybe the maintenance stage >> needs to be rethought. > > While there may be truth in this, I'm not sure I entirely agree > with your statement. A person is by definition no longer expected to
> lose weight in a 'maintenance' phase. 1) Most people need to lose more weight than they will do in the first three, even six, months so I would think that the period you refer to as "the mainenance phase" will still be a weight loss phase for many if not most dieters (as is apparently the case in the study you mention).
2) The study you mention not withstanding, it is unusual to get a alrge group of people to not gain weight after the initial weight loss (which makes me interested to know the details of the stufy you mention.
3) The theory of why the Atkins' diet does not worsen lipid levels (assuming it doesn't - not a safe assupmtion) relies on ketosis. When a person is calorically negative (i.e. losing weight) and severely restricting carbs this is a fairly easy state to maintain. If the calories are neutral or in excess and carbs are being added back in it may not be as it does not take much carbohydrate to throw a person back out of ketosis.
> <snip> >>> aside from the benefit of finally getting a decent >>> night's sleep. >> >> Not sure what that is about unless sleep apnea was an issue.
> Um... it was the original reason for my posting about the Atkins > diet - as a means for a morbidly obese person with little energy to
> still lose weight and possibly decrease or end sleep apnea, as my
> friends did. The thread was about sleep apnea. That was in fact the
> thread you responded to, so I'm not sure why you're not making the
> connection. Then again, I'm sure you're quite busy, so perhaps
> you've forgotten it. It has nothing to do with being busy or forgetting. It is just that it was not clear how much of this discussion still had to do with the original topic. OSA had not even been mentioned in several posts and at the time we were discussing your two as yet unmentioned friends so it is not as if it was still an active topic of discussion in this subthread.
>> 1) It is not that well known to the medical community other
>> than how it is known to the regular community - book covers
>> and the popular press. There has not been nearly as much >> research on it as many suggest - especially when you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > While it is true that doctors are shamefully deficient in > training about nutrition - not their fault but that of medical
> schools - I have never over the past 10 years met a doctor that is
> not quite familiar with the Atkins diet, by name. Of course, this is
> in the States - perhaps you are from elsewhere where it is not so
> common? Until very recently there has hardly been anything to teach in medical schools about the Atkins diet and there isn't that much even now. It has nothing to do with whether their training is in general adequate or not.
>> 4) Mentioning it is kind of a cleap shot (more accurately an
>> ad hominem attack). How I spell it really has no bearing on
>> whether it works. There are a number of cheap shots I could
>> take at Atkins but I have refrained from doing so for >> similar reasons. > > Let me explain my concern. Often someone dismisses someone or > their idea by misspelling/mispronouncing their name, and I had no way
> of knowing whether this was the case here. Whether or not you are
> familiar with it, it was correctly spelled in the post to which you
> responded - once you saw a discrepancy, a quick check would have
> confirmed that easily enough. Also, if we discuss something here and
> someone wants to research it, especially online, the correct spelling
> of the name becomes quite important. I don't understand why being
> corrected got you so huffy, when as a doctor - and I have read your > posts and know this to be true - you understand precision in names is > important in your field. I don't question your pointing out the correct spelling. I agree that it was a point worth making. However, the personal attack that was attached to it contributed nothing to what I assume are the points you are interested in making. I also note that even after I mentioned it in my last post you came back in this post and did it at least two more times.
I think I have been pretty reasonable in stating that it is an idea with some backing in theory and has had some positive results in studies. I even pointed out that one widely held contraindication to the diet (and concern with it) may not be valid. I never suggested that a prson should not give it a try. I don't think the text of what I have typed supports your concerns of dismissivemess at all. However, there are areas of concern that have not been adequately evaluated it. I'm sorry if my pointing them out to you angers you. I'm also sorry if nothing short of enthusiatically embracing it is acceptable to you.
> As for your noting that you could take cheap shots at the diet - > I enjoy a discourse on subjects which interest me, even if the other
> person does not agree with my view point. But simply taking "cheap
> shots" at something would be more a reflection on you than on the
> program. I agree. That is my point.
I have in no way insulted you, Atkins, or the people who follow his diet. I have not suggested that there is any group of people that should not follow his diet and have stated explicitly that it may be worth a try. My entry into this discussion was mainly to say that cholesterol levels should be followed while on it because the diet's effect on lipids has had conflicting results. You, on the other hand, have insulted me personally more than once and the medical profession in general at least once. I would advise you to heed your own advice.
> This has been an interesting discussion. But as I've made my > points, more than once, and it appears at the brink of des cending
> into a less civil level, I'll stop here. I like this forum as a
> source of information, but I'm not comfortable with how easily some
> of its members take offense if they are questioned on 'touchy' areas.
> Problem is, no one knows which area is 'touchy' until they get flamed.
No has been flamed and you are the only one insulting other people. As a rule of thumb - if someone has been 'touchy' and too easily offended it is generally the one who has gotten off of the topic at hand and started making personal attacks.
 Signature CBI, MD
Katilist - 24 May 2004 03:13 GMT CBI, this is why I don't post frequently to this group. I find certain 'regulars' have a need to always be right and have the last word, no matter how compelling evidence or argument is to the contrary. I'm tired of making the same points over and over in this thread only to have you argue semantics and minutia, and ignore fact. I can't even post about the original nature of the thread or your mistaken claim of a 'cheap shot' without you attacking it and my motives.
Fine. You be 'right', and I'm sure you'll want to have the last word on this, but do it by yourself. You may be a doctor (or may not, for that matter), albiet an arrogant one but contrary to many doctors' beliefs you are not God - and you don't always have all the facts, though you like to pretend so.
Now go ahead and explain to everyone once again how someone else is a churl for getting frustrated with you.
WolfKat ^..^ >^^<
If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning. -Catherine Aird
CBI - 24 May 2004 04:21 GMT > CBI, this is why I don't post frequently to this group. I find > certain 'regulars' have a need to always be right and have the last
> word, no matter how compelling evidence or argument is to the
> contrary. I'm tired of making the same points over and over in this
> thread only to have you argue semantics and minutia, and ignore fact.
> I can't even post about the original nature of the thread or your
> mistaken claim of a 'cheap shot' without you attacking it and my > motives. > > Fine. You be 'right', and I'm sure you'll want to have the last > word on this, but do it by yourself. You may be a doctor (or may
> not, for that matter), albiet an arrogant one but contrary to many
> doctors' beliefs you are not God - and you don't always have all the
> facts, though you like to pretend so. > > Now go ahead and explain to everyone once again how someone else > is a churl for getting frustrated with you. You were right. The thread did become less civil.
 Signature CBI, MD
Meghan Noecker - 27 May 2004 10:17 GMT > CBI, this is why I don't post frequently to this group. I find certain >'regulars' have a need to always be right and have the last word, no matter how [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >thread or your mistaken claim of a 'cheap shot' without you attacking it and my >motives. I thought it was actually a decent discussion. I learned some from both sides. We need good discussions that argue the points from both sides. Otherwise, we can't learn.
Meghan & the Zoo Crew Equine and Pet Photography http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
Bob - 28 May 2004 15:11 GMT >I thought it was actually a decent discussion. I learned some from >both sides. We need good discussions that argue the points from both >sides. Otherwise, we can't learn. More Evidence Supports Low-Carbohydrate Diet
Bottom Line:
A low-carbohydrate diet may reduce weight to a greater extent than a low-fat diet in the short term, but this advantage appears to disappear by one year.
A low-carbohydrate diet may produce some lasting improvements in lipid profiles when compared with a low-fat diet.
May 17, 2004 Two randomized trials reported in the May 18 issue of the Annals of Internal Medicine further support the efficacy of a low-carbohydrate diet. A six-month trial showed higher participation and greater weight loss, and a 12-month study showed similar weight loss but better lipid profile than with a conventional diet. The editorialist uses findings from both studies to advise physicians and patients.
"This diet can be quite powerful. We found that the low-carb diet was more effective for weight loss," lead author Will Yancy, MD, from Duke University Medical Center and the Veterans Affairs Medical Center in Durham, North Carolina, says in a news release. "We also found cholesterol levels seemed to improve more on a low-carb diet compared to a low-fat diet."
In this study, which is the first randomized controlled trial of an Atkins-style diet, 120 study participants were assigned to a low-carbohydrate, high-protein diet or a low-fat, low-cholesterol, low-calorie diet.
The low-carbohydrate group (<20 g/day) was allowed daily unlimited calories, animal foods (meat, fowl, fish, and shellfish), and eggs, as well as 4 oz of hard cheese, two cups of salad vegetables (lettuce, spinach, or celery) and one cup of low-carbohydrate vegetables (broccoli, cauliflower, or squash). They also received daily nutritional supplements including a multivitamin, essential oils, an Atkins diet formulation, and chromium picolinate.
The low-fat, low-cholesterol, low-calorie group received less than 30% of daily caloric intake from fat, less than 10% of calories from saturated fat, and less than 300 mg cholesterol daily. They were advised to restrict daily calories by 500 to 1,000 calories less than their maintenance diet.
At study entry, all subjects were between 18 and 65 years of age and in generally good health, with a body mass index (BMI) between 30 and 60, and a total cholesterol level greater than 200 mg/dL. None had dieted or used weight loss medications in the previous six months. All subjects were encouraged to exercise 30 minutes at least three times per week and had regular group meetings at an outpatient research clinic for six months.
The study was completed by 76% of participants in the low-carbohydrate diet group and by 57% of participants in the low-fat diet group (P = .02). At six months, weight loss was -12.9% in the low-carbohydrate diet group and -6.7% in the low-fat diet group (P < .001).
In both groups, loss of fat mass (change, -9.4 kg with the low-carbohydrate diet vs. -4.8 kg with the low-fat diet) was greater than loss of fat-free mass (change, -3.3 kg vs. -2.4 kg, respectively). Compared with the low-fat diet group, the low-carbohydrate diet group had greater decreases in serum triglyceride levels (change, -0.84 mmol/L vs. -0.31 mmol/L [-74.2 mg/dL vs. -27.9 mg/dL]; P = .004) and greater increases in high-density lipoprotein [HDL] cholesterol levels (0.14 mmol/L vs. -0.04 mmol/L [5.5 mg/dL vs. -1.6 mg/dL]; P < .001).
Changes in low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol level were not significantly different between groups (0.04 mmol/L [1.6 mg/dL] with the low-carbohydrate diet and -0.19 mmol/L [-7.4 mg/dL with the low-fat diet; P = .2). However, participants in the low-carbohydrate diet group had more minor adverse effects, such as constipation and headaches, than did patients in the low-fat diet group.
Study limitations include inability to distinguish effects of the low-carbohydrate diet and those of the nutritional supplements provided only to that group, and use of healthy participants followed for only 24 weeks, limiting generalizability of the study results.
The authors are currently testing whether a low-carbohydrate diet can improve glycemic control in diabetes. However, they warn that patients with medical conditions such as diabetes and hypertension or who use diuretics should not begin a low-carbohydrate diet without close medical supervision, because the diet affects hydration and blood glucose levels. Nor do they recommend an Atkins-type diet for individuals attempting to lose weight for the first time.
"Over six months the diet appears relatively safe, but we need to study the safety for longer durations," Dr. Yancy says, noting potential long-term health risks including elevations in LDL cholesterol, bone loss, or kidney stones.
The Robert C. Atkins Foundation funded this research. The study authors have no financial interest in Atkins Nutritionals, Inc.
In the second study, by Linda Stern, MD, from the Philadelphia Veterans Affairs Medical Center in Pennsylvania, and colleagues, 132 obese adults were randomized to receive counseling to either restrict carbohydrate intake to less than 30 g per day (low-carbohydrate diet) or to restrict caloric intake by 500 calories per day with less than 30% of calories from fat (conventional diet). At baseline, BMI was at least 35 kg/m2, and 83% of participants had diabetes or metabolic syndrome.
By one year, mean weight change was -5.1 ± 8.7 kg in the low-carbohydrate diet group and -3.1 ± 8.4 kg in the conventional diet group (difference, -1.9 kg; 95% confidence interval [CI], -4.9 to 1.0 kg; P = .20). The low-carbohydrate diet group fared better in terms of greater decrease in triglyceride levels (P = .044) and less decrease in HDL cholesterol levels (P = .025).
In the subgroup of 54 persons with diabetes, hemoglobin A1c levels improved more with the low-carbohydrate diet, but the difference was not statistically significant in sensitivity analyses. Both groups had similar changes in other lipids and in insulin sensitivity.
Study limitations include high dropout rate of 34% and suboptimal dietary adherence.
"Despite modest overall weight loss in both diet groups, assignment to the low-carbohydrate group had a direct and more favorable effect on triglyceride level, HDL cholesterol level, and glycemic control in the smaller subgroup of patients with diabetes," the authors write. "These findings give further evidence that restriction of carbohydrates in obese persons, who may be overconsuming carbohydrates at baseline, may have favorable metabolic effects. Caution is still needed, however, in recommending a low-carbohydrate diet, as important concerns remain."
The Veterans Affairs Healthcare Network supported this study. The authors report no potential financial conflicts of interest.
"We can no longer dismiss very-low-carbohydrate diets," Walter C. Willett, MD, DrPH, from the Harvard School of Public Health in Boston, Massachusetts, writes in an accompanying editorial.
"We can encourage overweight patients to experiment with various methods for weight control, including reduced-carbohydrate diets, as long as they emphasize healthy sources of fat and protein and incorporate regular physical activity," he concludes. "Patients should focus on finding ways to eat that they can maintain indefinitely rather than seeking diets that promote rapid weight loss. For many patients, the roll will have little role."
Dr. Willett served as an unpaid consultant on a grant by the Atkins Foundation.
Ann Intern Med. 2004;140:769-777, 778-785, 836-837
Clinical Context
Obesity has reached epidemic proportions in the U.S., and many patients are desperate to find a solution to help them lose weight. The strategy of low-carbohydrate dieting has been espoused by a growing number of obese individuals, and their choice is validated with some evidence of efficacy. In a six-month analysis published in the May 22, 2003, issue of the New England Journal of Medicine involving the same patient cohort currently reexamined at one year by Stern and colleagues, a low-carbohydrate diet was associated with greater weight loss and improved triglyceride levels, insulin sensitivity, and glycemic control when compared with a low-fat diet.
An editorial by Willett that accompanies the current study by Stern cautions that the improved short-term weight gain associated with low-carbohydrate diets when compared with low-fat diets has generally not been shown to be significantly different at one year. He also notes that weight is not the only area to be scrutinized with low-carbohydrate diets. Low-carbohydrate diets have been demonstrated to have favorable effects on the lipid profile and insulin sensitivity that could improve health outcomes in obese adults.
Two studies in the current issue of the Annals of Internal Medicine compare the effects of low-carbohydrate vs. low-fat diets.
Study Highlights
Yancy article: Subjects were primarily white, well-educated, and female. The average BMI was slightly greater than 34 kg/m2, and all participants had hyperlipidemia. Patients using prescription medication other than thyroid replacement or female hormonal treatments were excluded. Diet interventions were accomplished using group counseling sessions. Participants in the low-carbohydrate diet group were instructed to initially limit carbohydrate to less than 20 g per day and then add 5 g of carbohydrate per day later. The low-fat diet group was instructed to reduce caloric intake by 500 to 1,000 kcal per day, derive less than 30% of these calories from fat, and consume less than 300 mg of cholesterol per day.
The main study outcomes were weight loss and weight loss derived from fat over a 6-month period. Metabolic parameters were also followed. 120 subjects were randomized, and 76% and 57% of the low-carbohydrate and low-fat diet subjects, respectively, completed the study.
Mean weight loss was 12 kg in the low-carbohydrate diet group at the end of the study compared with 6.5 kg in the low-fat diet group.
Fat mass was reduced by 9.4 kg in the low-carbohydrate diet group compared with a reduction of 4.8 kg in the low-fat diet group.
Triglyceride and HDL cholesterol levels were significantly improved in the low-carbohydrate diet group compared with the low-fat diet group. Mean LDL cholesterol levels were similar between the 2 groups, although 2 subjects in the low-carbohydrate diet group stopped the study because of increased LDL levels.
More subjects in the low-carbohydrate diet group experienced adverse events, the most common of which were constipation, headache, halitosis, and muscle cramps.
Stern article: Subjects included adults with a BMI of 35 kg/m2 or greater without significant renal or hepatic disease.
Participants were randomized to either a low-carbohydrate diet, which limited carbohydrate intake to less than 30 g per day, or a low-fat diet, in which less than 30% of calories were derived from fat and overall caloric intake was reduced by 500 kcal per day. These interventions were implemented through weekly counseling sessions for 4 weeks, and then monthly sessions for 11 months.
The main study outcome was weight change, and subjects were also followed for effects on serum lipids, insulin sensitivity, and glycemic control.
More than 80% of study participants were men and had either metabolic syndrome or diabetes.
20 of 64 original subjects in the low-carbohydrate diet group dropped out of the study prior to one year compared with 25 of 68 patients in the low-fat diet group.
Both intervention groups had reduced average daily caloric intake by one year to similar levels. The low-carbohydrate diet group had reduced carbohydrate intake by 52% at one year.
Although patients in the low-carbohydrate diet group had lost significantly more weight than the low-fat diet group by 6 months, they averaged no more weight loss during the following 6 months and had a mean one-year weight loss of 5.1 kg. This was statistically similar to the one-year mean weight loss of 3.1 kg for patients in the low-fat diet group, whose mean weight decreased steadily during the trial.
Total and LDL cholesterol levels were fairly stable in both intervention groups at one year, and the difference between treatment groups was not significant. However, triglyceride and HDL cholesterol levels were more improved in the low-carbohydrate diet group compared with the low-fat diet group.
Serum glucose levels and insulin sensitivity were similar between the diet groups at one year, although hemoglobin A1c improvements in subjects with diabetes in the low-carbohydrate diet group narrowly missed statistical significance.
CBI - 29 May 2004 20:08 GMT > >I thought it was actually a decent discussion. I learned some from > >both sides. We need good discussions that argue the points from both [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > A low-carbohydrate diet may produce some lasting improvements in lipid > profiles when compared with a low-fat diet. I guess I can delete that edition of medscape from my inbox. I had it saved to read and probably post here but you neat me to it. The articles pretty much confirm what we had discussed.
 Signature CBI, MD
Joy - 24 May 2004 04:00 GMT Not my field but.
I have personally had less reflux problems on a high protein diet and lost more than I would have on Pritkin (which results in tiredness and hunger) but I have no real expiation for the success other than we are all different. So when I don't die of whatever, we maybe can throw out the apparently flawed Framingham Heart study which resulted in this mess. Not that I have any expertise than to be involved in what I consider to be another flawed heart study.
Joy
> > <snip> > >> Maybe the maintenance stage [quoted text clipped - 173 lines] > gotten off of the topic at hand and started making personal > attacks. CBI - 24 May 2004 04:30 GMT > Not my field but. > > I have personally had less reflux problems on a high protein diet and > lost more than I would have on Pritkin (which results in tiredness
> and hunger) but I have no real expiation for the success other than
> we are all different. That doesn't suprise me. Of course, it will be hard to tell if the decreased reflux was from the wieght loss or the composition of the diet. If it is working for you then it is mostly an academic issue. If you read back through this exchange I never suggested that Atkins didn't work or that anyone should not try it (actually I said jus the opposite). I just pointed out some issues that have not been settled that people might want to look out for (like avoiding all those Atkins friendly snacks).
> So when I don't die of whatever, we maybe can > throw out the apparently flawed Framingham Heart study which resulted
> in this mess. Not that I have any expertise than to be involved in
> what I consider to be another flawed heart study. The Framingham study is fine. It is a survey of several factors, mostly dietary, and cardiac outcomes. It has established a lot of usefull correlations. The problems stem from the fact that correlation does not prove causation. Some people have drawn conclusions that turned out not to be simple as they seemed at first. A good example is the one that katalist brought up. They noticed that people who ate less fat had less heart disease and recommended that peole eat less fact. Where they screwed up was in not realizing that different fats have different effects and less is not always better. That isn't a flaw in the study. It is a flaw in the way the results were applied and in not validating conclusions properly. The joke is that I now find the same person vilifying me for arguing against making the exact same mistake.
 Signature CBI, MD
Joy - 24 May 2004 13:40 GMT > > Not my field but. > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > that people might want to look out for (like avoiding all > those Atkins friendly snacks). No, my experience is that I still have reflux issues if I cheat and eat something on the do not eat list (white carbs like sugar or flour). That would not be what you would expect if slow digestion of fat were responsible for the disorder. And of course on the weight loss side, I find low carbing easier to deal with. On low fat, I was so hungry I couldn't sleep, and I would give up after a couple of months with only a small weight loss due to being so TIRED. I agree about avoiding Frankenfoods. They are really expensive additionally.
> > So when I don't die of whatever, we maybe can > > throw out the apparently flawed Framingham Heart study [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > in the way the results were applied and in not validating > conclusions properly. The resulting decades of IMHO bad diet advice that came from the incorrect application of conclusions of the Framingham study then. Same difference if you are on the consumer side. It was flawed advice. One of the low carb books I read by a doc in California, and I can't recall the name of the author this AM, stated that her type 2 patients who had been placed on low fat diets, had less success in controlling their diabetis than the ones who "cheated" and ate meat. So, although Akins and South Beach diets are designed by Cardiologists, there are docs in other medical fields who have started recommending low carb to their patients because they see the advantages. I will see if I can find that information.
The joke is that I now find the same
> person vilifying me for arguing against making the exact > same mistake. I have no clue what you are talking about.
Joy
Meghan Noecker - 27 May 2004 10:24 GMT >anyone should not try it (actually I said jus the opposite). >I just pointed out some issues that have not been settled >that people might want to look out for (like avoiding all >those Atkins friendly snacks). I would also be careful with anything trying to join the bandwagon as low-carb.
For example, low carb wraps. These are popular with the low carb dieters, and they have been selling well. But the store where I work just informed us that the 6 wraps with 8 net carbs or less are actually 8-12 carbs. They had us take down the signs advertising he 8 carbs, but I have yet to see any notices to inform the customers of the truth. So, all these people are still buying the sandwiches, thinking they are lower, and they don't realize they may be messing up their diet.
Also, the wraps have small portions, so the price is the same, yet you get less than half the meat of a regular sandwich. It's cheaper to buy your wrap and make your own sandwich.
Personally, I am embarrassed to sell them. I wouldn't mind if poeple knew the portions were lower (or the price was lower), and if the customers knew the correct carb count. I really believe the company should have put up notices to correct the false claim. But then, this may have been their plan all along.
Meghan & the Zoo Crew Equine and Pet Photography http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
CBI - 29 May 2004 20:22 GMT > Personally, I am embarrassed to sell them. I wouldn't mind if poeple > knew the portions were lower (or the price was lower), and if the > customers knew the correct carb count. I really believe the company > should have put up notices to correct the false claim. But then, this > may have been their plan all along. That is on of the points I was trying to make. The problem with diets is that when they become popular the food industry changes the landscape. Atkins is just now entering the phase the the low fat theories were in a few decades ago.
When the Framingham (and other) data first indicated that eating less fat was healthier there were no margarines and other examples of less healthy foods with lower fats. In that environment if you wanted to eat less fat you just had to cut back on the lard, butter, and red meat. Even knowing what we know today (which is still in a state of flux) this seems like good advice. The problem was that as the low fat concept became popular the food industry started comming out with low fat foods that turned out to not such a great idea. Some were sweet and still had a lot of calories (bascially substituted carbs for fat) and some substituted other forms of fat that turned out to be even less healthy. The idea of low fat is still not a bad one - it is just that we know to be more careful about which fats to eat as well.
Atkins is now in a similar possition. In terms of wieght loss it has shown some superiority in the short term (3-6 mos) and is probably just as about as good in the longer term (most studies suggest equal, some suggest worse). As weight management is a life long issue it would be nice to see data for longer than a year, but I am sure that will come. The problem is that as the diet becomes popular the whole landscape is changing. Losing wieght in the environment of a year or two ago, where you were forced to restrict choices (including not eating out much or snacking), will likely be different than in the current environment where every popular restaurant offers a variety of choices and the supermarkets are stocked with snacks that are "friendly" to the diet.
 Signature CBI, MD
Meghan Noecker - 30 May 2004 08:45 GMT >> Personally, I am embarrassed to sell them. I wouldn't mind >if poeple [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >the phase the the low fat theories were in a few decades >ago. Exactly. To make any of the diets work, you still have to be very careful and do your own homework. I see people every day who think they are on the Atkin's diet, and they are ruining their diet without realizing it. I had somebody the other day who wanted a chinese meal, but no rice or chow mein because she is on the atkin's diet. I told her that we have nothing that would qualify for the diet, but she insisted. She chose an entree that is deep fried with a light batter on it. I told her it had a batter. She didn't care. And it is one of the sweetest entrees as well (tons of sugar). Her second entree was also high in sugar. And she took the eggroll.
I feel really bad for people. They take a diet, which is being promoted differently than the orginal diet was intended. Simplified to sound really easy. And then people fall for it.
I have a friend who did very well on the diet, but he read the book and actually followed the diet. This was before it became the rage. Now, we have a lobby full of special snacks and products. And a lot of people blindly following the commercialized diet rather than the real one.
And the companies are raking in the money.
Meghan & the Zoo Crew Equine and Pet Photography http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
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