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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Asthma / May 2004

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Numbness in fingers?

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FACE - 25 Apr 2004 14:41 GMT
Does anyone else have a long term tingling numbness of the fingers, the
last two, the little finger and the one next to it?  -- FACE
Joy - 25 Apr 2004 21:58 GMT
> Does anyone else have a long term tingling numbness of the fingers, the
> last two, the little finger and the one next to it?  -- FACE

Well, I have a diagnosis of Cubital tunnel with those symptoms.

http://www.ctsrelief.com/cts.htm

I have a cast that goes from my wrist to my shoulder I am supposed to wear
at night, but I don't because I can't sleep with it.
FACE - 25 Apr 2004 22:24 GMT
>> Does anyone else have a long term tingling numbness of the fingers, the
>> last two, the little finger and the one next to it?  -- FACE
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>I have a cast that goes from my wrist to my shoulder I am supposed to wear
>at night, but I don't because I can't sleep with it.

Interesting site.  I had considered Carpal Tunnel Syndrome.  There seem
to some other "maybe's" to it.   I do not have pain.

FACE
Joy - 26 Apr 2004 02:08 GMT
Cubital means the problem is in your Elbow, which is not the same as the
usual carpel tunnel which is in your wrist and involves pain.. I have both,
and because I have both, all my figures are involved. Go to a Neurologist
have the testing done.
Meghan Noecker - 29 Apr 2004 08:06 GMT
>>> Does anyone else have a long term tingling numbness of the fingers, the
>>> last two, the little finger and the one next to it?  -- FACE
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Interesting site.  I had considered Carpal Tunnel Syndrome.  There seem
>to some other "maybe's" to it.   I do not have pain.

Carpal tunnel is the thumb and first two fingers, not the last two
fingers.

Another similar condition is DeQuervain's syndrome, which is basically
the same thing as Carpal tunnel, but it is the different tendon sheath
that goes to the thumb only.

I have this one, and I sometimes have horrible pain in my wrist. I
used to think it might be carpal tunnel, but my fingers never had any
problems. Then I learned about the DeQuervain's. I have found that a
simple ace bandage across the wrist/base of the hand is enough to
relieve the problem. Just enough to restrict the movement of the
thumb. I actually buy vet wrap which is like an ace bandage but sticks
to itself, comes in nice colors, and is a lot cheaper than the people
stuff in the first aid section.

Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
FACE - 29 Apr 2004 13:59 GMT
>>>> Does anyone else have a long term tingling numbness of the fingers, the
>>>> last two, the little finger and the one next to it?  -- FACE
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>the same thing as Carpal tunnel, but it is the different tendon sheath
>that goes to the thumb only.

Thank you, Meghan.  At this time, my thumbs are fine.

A year ago I asked my GP about it and he felt along my wrist and forearm
(apparently to see if I flinched in pain?) and when i didn't, he kinda
grumbled that it would go away.  So much for high tech diagnosis.

I then started leaning towards a low Blood Oxygen content.  However, on
that, I was in the hospital for ten day about 7 months ago and had a BOC
probe on one of my fingertips for several days, was on oxygen, and the
probe measured a low of 92 and a high of 98.  Of course no one actually
told me what those numbers meant, but they seemed to consider 92 as
"low" and 98 as "normal".

FACE

>I have this one, and I sometimes have horrible pain in my wrist. I
>used to think it might be carpal tunnel, but my fingers never had any
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Equine and Pet Photography
>http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
CBI - 29 Apr 2004 16:24 GMT
> Carpal tunnel is the thumb and first two fingers, not the last two
> fingers.

The classic description is that it is in the thumb, all of the first
two fingers (the palm side and backs past the last crease), and the
middle half of the ring finger. According to what we think is
happening (the median nerve is being compressed at the wrist) this is
what one would think would be affected (it is where the median nerve
goes). However, the reality is that it can affect other fingers, the
whole hand, and even go back up the arm as high as the shoulder. I
have never heard an explanation about how this could poissibly be.
Apparently, there is still a lot we don't understand about it.

> Another similar condition is DeQuervain's syndrome, which is basically
> the same thing as Carpal tunnel, but it is the different tendon sheath
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> to itself, comes in nice colors, and is a lot cheaper than the people
> stuff in the first aid section.

I should mention that while immobilizing the thumb to prevenrt
irritation of the tendon sheath from movement may help your problem
that wrapping the wrist tightly could increase the pressure ont he
nerve and worsen carpal tunnel syndrome. The usual first treatment is
to immobilize the wrist (without putting  alot of pressure on it) with
specially designed splints.

Signature

CBI, MD

Bob - 29 Apr 2004 20:24 GMT
>> Carpal tunnel is the thumb and first two fingers, not the last two
>> fingers.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>have never heard an explanation about how this could poissibly be.
>Apparently, there is still a lot we don't understand about it.

The median nerve is comprised of nerve branches that exit the spine at
4 different levels, C5, C6, C8 and T1.  Nerve irritation or pathology
at any of these levels can refer pain to the shoulder, arm and hand,
and can affect more than just the tissues that the median nerve
innervates.  In addition, carpal, elbow, and shoulder joint
misalignments can contribute to carpal tunnel-like symptoms.
As you infer, it can be complicated to sort out what is causing what.
The following link shows a picture of a cadaver dissection of the
brachial plexus, plus schematics and descriptions of the nerve
anatomy.

http://depts.washington.edu/anesth/regional/brachialplexusanatomy.html
CBI - 02 May 2004 15:17 GMT
>> friesian@zoocrewphoto.com (Meghan Noecker) wrote in
message
>> news:<c6q9ic$ofs$0@216.145.17.203>...
>>>
>>> Carpal tunnel is the thumb and first two fingers, not the last two
>>> fingers.
>>
>> The classic description is that it is in the thumb, all
of the first
>> two fingers (the palm side and backs past the last
crease), and the
>> middle half of the ring finger. According to what we
think is
>> happening (the median nerve is being compressed at the
wrist) this is
>> what one would think would be affected (it is where the
median nerve
>> goes). However, the reality is that it can affect other
fingers, the
>> whole hand, and even go back up the arm as high as the
shoulder. I
>> have never heard an explanation about how this could
poissibly be.
>> Apparently, there is still a lot we don't understand
about it.

> The median nerve is comprised of nerve branches that exit the spine at
> 4 different levels, C5, C6, C8 and T1.  Nerve irritation or pathology
> at any of these levels can refer pain to the shoulder, arm and hand,
> and can affect more than just the tissues that the median nerve
> innervates.

I'm sure you are on the right track as the unexplained pains
of CTS all correspond to those spinal levels. However, as
carpal tunnel is usually explained it should only affect
tissues innervated by the median nerves. Alas it does affect
more, suggesting that the common explanation si incomplete
at best.

>  In addition, carpal, elbow, and shoulder joint
> misalignments can contribute to carpal tunnel-like symptoms.
> As you infer, it can be complicated to sort out what is causing what.

I think you are probably correct. it would be silly to
suppose that other issues would not be common in this type
of overuse injury. If you are abusing the limb why would the
wrist be the only thing affected?

Signature

CBI, MD

Meghan Noecker - 01 May 2004 09:41 GMT
>I should mention that while immobilizing the thumb to prevenrt
>irritation of the tendon sheath from movement may help your problem
>that wrapping the wrist tightly could increase the pressure ont he
>nerve and worsen carpal tunnel syndrome. The usual first treatment is
>to immobilize the wrist (without putting  alot of pressure on it) with
>specially designed splints.

I don't use much pressure at all. I just use a light bandage, and just
tight enough that it doesn't slip. It doesn't have to compress
anything, just prevent me from opening my thumb too much. I still can
if I want to, but it limits the movement.

I used to use those wrist splints, and they made my wrist ache more,
and I couldn't wear them at work. I realized that the only part I
needed was the thumb part, and not the kind that holds the thumb away
from the hand, but the kind that holds it closer.

After that, I realized a simple band across the base of my hand was
just enough to do the deed. I actually used my watch the first time
before figuring out that I could use vet wrap.

I don't have the problem very often, so I can usually go a few months
without needing it, then when I feel it coming on, I get out my wrap
and head it off.

As far as carpal tunnel, I have been very forutunate as to not have
it. I have never felt any pain or numbness in any of the fingers on
either hand.

And since I gave up playing solitaire on teh computer, I have not had
much problem with the DeQuervain's either.

Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
PENMART01 - 25 Apr 2004 22:44 GMT
>"Joy"
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>I have a cast that goes from my wrist to my shoulder I am supposed to wear
>at night, but I don't because I can't sleep with it.

You both have "CMD"...  ("Chronic Masturbators Disease").

Ahahahahahahahahaha. . . .

---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =---
     ---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
Sheldon          
````````````
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
     
Peter Kolb - 29 Apr 2004 23:18 GMT
>Does anyone else have a long term tingling numbness of the fingers, the
>last two, the little finger and the one next to it?  -- FACE

It could well be  caused by  hyperventilation.  If you have asthma as
well, it probbly is.

Peter Kolb

pkolb@wt.com.au
___________________________________________________

Free information provided by grateful ex-asthmatics

   http://members.westnet.com.au/pkolb/buteyko.htm

__________________________________________________
Bob - 29 Apr 2004 23:30 GMT
>>Does anyone else have a long term tingling numbness of the fingers, the
>>last two, the little finger and the one next to it?  -- FACE
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Peter Kolb

ROFLMAO
ARoberts - 30 Apr 2004 00:13 GMT
> >Does anyone else have a long term tingling numbness of the fingers, the
> >last two, the little finger and the one next to it?  -- FACE
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Peter Kolb

HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa, sure petey...
CBI - 30 Apr 2004 13:46 GMT
> >Does anyone else have a long term tingling numbness of the fingers, the
> >last two, the little finger and the one next to it?  -- FACE
>
> It could well be  caused by  hyperventilation.  If you have asthma as
> well, it probbly is.

I'm kicking myself for not seeing that one coming.

Hey Petey -  Why don't you assume that we all know that you think any
symptom can be from hypereventilation and save us all the bandwidth?

Also - the next time you ask what harm can come from "just a simple
breathing technique" - look back to this post. If you had your way the
guy would be buying videos and holding his breath instead of getting
to the neurologist he needs.

Signature

CBI, MD

Peter Kolb - 01 May 2004 01:50 GMT
>> >Does anyone else have a long term tingling numbness of the fingers, the
>> >last two, the little finger and the one next to it?  -- FACE
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>I'm kicking myself for not seeing that one coming.

You certainly should be kicking yourself. For goodness sakes,
"tingling and numbness in the fingers" and you missed the bleeding
obvious.  This is exactly the point I keep making.  You're looking for
a complicated answer when the answer could really be quite simple.

>Hey Petey -  Why don't you assume that we all know that you think any
>symptom can be from hypereventilation and save us all the bandwidth?

As Cardiologist Claude Lum points out in "Hyperventilation: the tip
and the iceberg" - (available off our web site) :  "Symptoms may show
up anywhere, in any organ, in any system;  for we are dealing with a
profound biochemical disturbance  which is s real as hypoglycemia and
more far reaching in its effects."

But,  lets look a this case in particular.  He's talking about
"tingling and numbness of the fingers."  This was associated with
hyperventilation in 1908 by Haldane and can even today be found in
every physiology text book.  Maybe it's time you went back to medical
school to re-learn the basics.

>Also - the next time you ask what harm can come from "just a simple
>breathing technique" - look back to this post. If you had your way the
>guy would be buying videos and holding his breath instead of getting
>to the neurologist he needs.

If it's hyperventilation then, as cardiologist Claude Lum, Magarian et
al. all say,  mainstream medicine will almost certainly miss it,
unless it happens to be acute.  In your case you wouldn't even pick it
if it was acute.

So by all means, the young man can certainly go to his GP, who will
refer him to a neurolgist, who will refer him to a hematologist and
have an MRI ordered, do tens of thousands of Dollars worth of tests
and could well end up telling him it's all in his head.  He would then
have the option to go to a Buteyko practitioner.  By this stage, once
the medical system has sucked all his money out of him,  he would
almost certainly be hyperventilating anyway and would need a Buteyko
practitioner.  In fact, by this stage his feet will be tingling as
well.  The Buteyko practitoner would teach him some simple breathing
exercises that will help him raise his CO2 level, which will open his
blood vessels and improve the oxygenating capacity of his blood.  If
this tingling is caused by CHV, then it will go away.

He could also do this first, since compared to the medical treatment
it is absurdly cheap.  If he gets no results in the first few days
while he's waiting for an appointment with the neurologist,  he hasn't
lost anything, since most Buteyko practitioners give refunds if their
therapy doesn't work.  As you well know, Doctors don't guarantee their
work.

Peter Kolb

pkolb@wt.com.au
___________________________________________________

Free information provided by grateful ex-asthmatics

   http://members.westnet.com.au/pkolb/buteyko.htm

__________________________________________________
Bob - 01 May 2004 14:02 GMT
>But,  lets look a this case in particular.  He's talking about
>"tingling and numbness of the fingers."  This was associated with
>hyperventilation in 1908 by Haldane and can even today be found in
>every physiology text book.  Maybe it's time you went back to medical
>school to re-learn the basics.

Yeah Chris, forget all that nonsense that you've learned and
experienced and developed judgement to help patients sort through the
myriad variables involved in the management of their health.  Heck,
all you really need to do is come out with a line of neck chokers
actuated by a C02 sensor.  Then, not only will all your patients be
healed from any and all maladies, you will be helping them with a
fashion statement as well.

http://www.thecostumer.com/store/product.cfm?prodID=333
Bob - 01 May 2004 14:46 GMT
>Yeah Chris, forget all that nonsense that you've learned and
>experienced and developed judgement to help patients sort through the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>http://www.thecostumer.com/store/product.cfm?prodID=333

P.S.  You could call it the Pan-neck-seeya...
CBI - 02 May 2004 15:20 GMT
> You certainly should be kicking yourself. For goodness sakes,
> "tingling and numbness in the fingers" and you missed the bleeding
> obvious.  This is exactly the point I keep making.  You're looking for
> a complicated answer when the answer could really be quite simple.

Yes, I see. All patients, no matter what their symptoms or
signs, all have the exact same problem and so the exact same
treatment will heal whatever ails them. What could possibly
be more simple?

Signature

CBI, MD

Joy - 02 May 2004 17:07 GMT
.

> Yes, I see. All patients, no matter what their symptoms or
> signs, all have the exact same problem and so the exact same
> treatment will heal whatever ails them. What could possibly
> be more simple?

I have to tell you I visited the B newsgroup and someone there was actually
blaming overbreathing for their foot odor. The list of medical complaints
they claim to cure is AMAZING. Too bad they got the practitioners to remove
those great web pages that used to claim B* breathing was the end all to
almost every medical condition. Those were they days when you could really
show people what BUNK they were pushing.
ARoberts - 02 May 2004 22:41 GMT
> .
> >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> almost every medical condition. Those were they days when you could really
> show people what BUNK they were pushing.

Kolb will tell any lie, any distortion, to push his bankrupt treatment.
CBI - 03 May 2004 00:33 GMT
> .
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I have to tell you I visited the B newsgroup and someone there was
> actually blaming overbreathing for their foot odor. The
list of
> medical complaints they claim to cure is AMAZING. Too bad
they got
> the practitioners to remove those great web pages that
used to claim
> B* breathing was the end all to almost every medical
condition. Those
> were they days when you could really show people what BUNK
they were
> pushing.

It was especially fun when Petey was dumb enough to claim
here that he didn't get anything from it but was selling the
videos from his website. I guess he figured we would never
look. Of course, now he seems to figure we won't remember.

Signature

CBI, MD

Bob - 03 May 2004 13:15 GMT
>> .
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>videos from his website. I guess he figured we would never
>look. Of course, now he seems to figure we won't remember.

That, of course, would be due to Pre-senile hypervent-dementia...
Peter Kolb - 03 May 2004 14:56 GMT
>> .
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>possibly
>>> be more simple?

If you would bother to read the hyperventilation literature, Joy,
then you would understand how so many apparently unrelated disorders
are actually quite logically connected to a single cause.  

The problem is that you have been conditioned by the medical system,
(which made a bad mistake some 50 years ago in ignoring CHV,)  to view
every symptom  as a totally separate  disease.   Fortunately attention
to nutrition, exercise and conservation of the bicarbonate buffer
system through attention to breathing, has provided us with a holistic
approach to  health.  The alternative favoured by western medicine
lies in the provision of dangerous and very expensive drugs for the
temporary relief of specific symptoms when health has already
deteriorated.  

You clearly don'd understand anything about CHV,  you are not
interested in understaning anything about CHV, so why don't you stop
shooting your mouth off?  What on earth do you have to gain from
promoting your ignorance?  With CBI I can understand that he has an
image to project  and a business to protect and he clearly sees this
as being more important than the health of the people who  trust him
for good advice.  But what the hell do you have to gain from all this?
The day will come when the rest of the world has moved on and all you
have to look back on is an embarrassing legacy of literature designed
to miselead people coming to this board for help.

>The
>list of
>> medical complaints they claim to cure is AMAZING.

Get it right.  The list of symptoms attributed to Chronic
hyperventilation  was already well established in the medical
literature long before Buteyko's method made it into the west.  

And from CBI:

>It was especially fun when Petey was dumb enough to claim
>here that he didn't get anything from it but was selling the
>videos from his website. I guess he figured we would never
>look. Of course, now he seems to figure we won't remember.

Actually, when Mark Reardon and I set up our Buteyko site 8 or 9 years
ago,  we did not underestimate the intelligence of the people who were
going to read our material.  We assumed they would look for commercial
motives.  For that reason the site was always headed with a
"commercial free" message and we took great care that nobody could
accuse us of profiteering from providing this information.  Why?
Because that would immediately devalue the material.  We didn't want
anybody to have any ammunition to throw at us.  Besides, I earn more
than enough at my day job and don't need any extra income.

But, Chris,   what we did underestimate was how morally bankrupt were
dickheads like you.   We never imagined  anybody would INVENT
commercial interests for us.   We provided links to other sites that
may or may not have been commercial.  At the time you clicked on these
links you just assumed they were local.  You din't read the little URL
window that told you where you were.    And today, some 8 years later,
with not a shred of evidence, you claim you still remember that those
links were local.  Well, you're a liar!  

It obiously galls  you, as someone who really does profit from the ill
health of your fellow man, that there are people out there who do
things for reasons other than MONEY.  It is clearly not in your
commercial interest that a cure for asthma ever be found in your life
time.  I cannot see what other motive you could have for putting
together this pack of lies,  refusing to read CHV literature ,and
lieing about it.

Has it ever occurred to you that some of us have had to watch our
little kids suffer with the asthma you guys could never fix?  Have you
ever given some thought to people like me who had to shove chemicals
down the throats of our little kids at 2 in the morning and then again
at 4 untill our little child shook like a leaf?   Do you have any idea
what  emotional devastation is caused by the feeling of helplessness
when you have to watch your child suffer like that?

No you would'nt because you see so much of it you've become immune to
it.  Besides,  to you  BAD HEALTH = MONEY!!!!   You can't get your
stupid head past the MONEY!  Why do you think so many people are
working so hard to promote the Buteyko method without any reward at
all?  Why do you think Victor spends all his spare time creating
illustrations to help people understand the method FOR  NOTHING?

I've said this before and I'll say it again:  I don't care what you
think about Buteyko.  What I do care about is the many people that are
turned away from trying a simple breathing technique (with which they
are guaranteed to turn around their asthma,)  because of an obstinate,
opinionated medic who cares more about his image than the health of
his patients.

Peter Kolb

pkolb@wt.com.au
___________________________________________________

Free information provided by grateful ex-asthmatics

   http://members.westnet.com.au/pkolb/buteyko.htm

__________________________________________________
Joy - 03 May 2004 18:27 GMT
> >> .
> >>>
[quoted text clipped - 94 lines]
> opinionated medic who cares more about his image than the health of
> his patients.

Bummer Kolb,

I don't have asthma anymore. My asthma was caused by an infection and no
breathing technique was going to fix that. Long term antibiotics however did
the trick, as you would expect.  But it is true I still have Cubital tunnel.
So, I'm hyperventilating myself into Cubital tunnel, but not asthma at this
time according to you. Does that mean I am breathing quickly enough that I
have cubital tunnel, but not so fast that I have asthma? It is absolutely
ridiculous the leaps you have made from a few bad papers. Even your own
authors are now walking away from the theory. You are the person who will
find 10 years from now that you can "look back on is an embarrassing legacy
of literature designed to mislead people coming to this board for help". We
would all love it if you would discontinue coming in here and shooting your
mouth off. Feel free to take that suggestion at any time.

Joy
CBI - 04 May 2004 00:09 GMT
> > If you would bother to read the hyperventilation literature, Joy,
> > then you would understand how so many apparently unrelated disorders
> > are actually quite logically connected to a single cause.

If anyone bothers to read it what they discover is that you are
referencing a psychiatric condition related to anxiety and panic
attacks with no connection at all to asthma. This has been pointed out
to you numerous times. You seemed to let it drop for a while but I see
that you are back to your old tricks of providing irrelevant
references and hoping no one actually takes you up on your suggestion
to read them. I will acknowledge that it is entirely possible that you
just don't understand what they say themselves (and some would say
this is the assumption that I should make).

> > With CBI I can understand that he has an
> > image to project  and a business to protect and he clearly sees this
> > as being more important than the health of the people who  trust him
> > for good advice.  

This a falacy has been exposed many times as well. If I embrace a new
treatment that works (which I do all the time) then my patients get
better and my image is nothing but enhanced. There are enough people
with enough illnesses that I am in no danger of running out of
patients by curing them all.

> > Get it right.  The list of symptoms attributed to Chronic
> > hyperventilation  was already well established in the medical
> > literature long before Buteyko's method made it into the west.

BS - virtually all of the references you cite refer to panic attacks.
The very existance of "the hyperventilation syndrome" that you suggest
is has never been shown to be valid.

> > >It was especially fun when Petey was dumb enough to claim
> > >here that he didn't get anything from it but was selling the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > ago,  we did not underestimate the intelligence of the people who were
> > going to read our material.

All evidence to the contrary.

> > We assumed they would look for commercial
> > motives.  For that reason the site was always headed with a
> > "commercial free" message and we took great care that nobody could
> > accuse us of profiteering from providing this information.

BS - I remember it well. When this was pointed out you made no
immediate response then much later started denying it. Of course, by
then the sales pitches had been removed. Making excuses about only
providing links to other cites is lame and novel considering your
previous flat denials - but changing your story does seem to be a
speciality of yours.

> > It obiously galls  you, as someone who really does profit from the ill
> > health of your fellow man, that there are people out there who do
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > together this pack of lies,  refusing to read CHV literature ,and
> > lieing about it.

You are the one who has been caught in several inaccurate statements
in this post alone.

To visit the money issue again - I get nothing from comming here. I am
not the one selling courses and videos. And again, there are enough
illnesses that a complete cure for asthma would not hurt my income. It
is not that large a part of my practice. I would be much more hurt if
people acutally stopped smoking and lost some weight but I advise them
to do so every day. Besides, as I said before, if I started making
asthmatics significantly better than my peers the only danger I would
face would be from exhaustion and over-work from the influx of new
patients.

> > I've said this before and I'll say it again:  I don't care what you
> > think about Buteyko.  

I know. You only care about how many people you can lure away from the
critical conversation of this group to yuor own sheltered little list
so you can sell them your wares in peace. You have been quoted (from
your own list) several times as saying that the reason you come to
this group is to recruit new members and that you have little interest
in actually discussing the issues.

I think the pot is calling the kettle black. One of us has admitted to
only comming here to recruit new people to your fold and has admitted
at least to referring people to places to buy the information needed
for the treatment (but I still say has sold them himself in the past).
The other comes here with no possible monetary incentive. I have been
here for years, do not use this forum to recruit patients, and do not
gain referrals from it.

Signature

CBI, MD

Peter Kolb - 04 May 2004 13:50 GMT
>> > If you would bother to read the hyperventilation literature, Joy,
>> > then you would understand how so many apparently unrelated disorders
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>attacks with no connection at all to asthma. This has been pointed out
>to you numerous times.

No.  You have not read the material.  Lum  (and many others)
specifically points out that chronic hyperventilation is confused with
anxiety and panic attacks by doctors.  In other words,  your take is a
typical example of this error.  

>You seemed to let it drop for a while

No, I mostly just could'nt be bothered arguing against uninformed
drivvel.  You just make wild statements that have absolutely no basis,
are unresearched and not thought through.  I don't have the time for
your crap.

>but I see
>that you are back to your old tricks of providing irrelevant
>references and hoping no one actually takes you up on your suggestion
>to read them

That's why I've taken the trouble to scan them and make them available
on my web site, so people will read them.

> I will acknowledge that it is entirely possible that you
>just don't understand what they say themselves (and some would say
>this is the assumption that I should make).

The material is very simply written.  Anyone can understand it.  So
that knocks that theory out.

>> > With CBI I can understand that he has an
>> > image to project  and a business to protect and he clearly sees this
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>with enough illnesses that I am in no danger of running out of
>patients by curing them all.

There are also enough doctors to go around.  Not much point being a
doctor if you lose half your patients to good health.  Asthmatics are
a praticularly lucrative  cash cow because they have to keep coming
back for the rest of their lives as long as there is no cure for their
disease.

What do you think the people who have cured themselves of their asthma
think about you?  

There is so much concern in the medical community about the move to
alternatives that they actually teach alternative and complementary
therapies in medical schools today.  At last count some 65% of
American medical schools were teaching alternative and complementary
therapies.

<snip all the rest of the bullshit that has been thrashed out many
times before>

Peter Kolb

pkolb@wt.com.au
___________________________________________________

Free information provided by grateful ex-asthmatics

   http://members.westnet.com.au/pkolb/buteyko.htm

__________________________________________________
Bob - 04 May 2004 14:48 GMT
>There is so much concern in the medical community about the move to
>alternatives that they actually teach alternative and complementary
>therapies in medical schools today.  At last count some 65% of
>American medical schools were teaching alternative and complementary
>therapies.

These courses have little to do with actually teaching CAM methods.
They are general awareness courses, familiarizing the medical students
with the historical and theoretical backgrounds of the various
methods, emphasizing the lack of enough acceptable scientific evidence
for their respective treatment claims.  More research needs to be done
before the medical community embraces CAM, and it will be done, in
time, as the public demand for CAM continues to grow, and more
precisely, when there is the political will to cough up the bucks for
the research.

Until then, hold your breath...
CBI - 04 May 2004 18:44 GMT
> >There is so much concern in the medical community about the move to
> >alternatives that they actually teach alternative and complementary
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> with the historical and theoretical backgrounds of the various
> methods,...

I would agree with this assessment. Mostly the logic is that since a
lot of people use this stuff and many will ask about it that the docs
should at least know what it is they are talking about.

> ...emphasizing the lack of enough acceptable scientific evidence
> for their respective treatment claims.  More research needs to be done
> before the medical community embraces CAM, and it will be done, in
> time, as the public demand for CAM continues to grow, and more
> precisely, when there is the political will to cough up the bucks for
> the research.

This is also true. There is not enough evidence to justify embracing
most CAM. The other problem is that even when a treatment is tested
and proved possibly useful you still have the problem of getting what
was used in the study. Virtually every study I have ever seen where
the analysed the actual contents of the remedies sold has been
disturbing in their findings. Between not knowing if a treatment
really works and not knowing what is in the bottle that you have just
bought it is hard to recommend the therapies.

I do think that more doctors are using more CAM than they are
generally given credit for doing.

The supporters of CAM fight this suggestion tooth and nail but the
best thing that could happen to them would be to allow some government
regulations. AT least then manufacturing standards could be enforced
and you would have some idea of what you are taking.

The third "problem" for those that like to complain about conventional
medicine's failure to adopt CAM is that as the treatments become
proved they morph into conventional treatments and leave the realm of
CAM. By this (very realistic) definition docs will never accept "CAM".

Signature

CBI, MD

Bob - 04 May 2004 19:45 GMT
>I do think that more doctors are using more CAM than they are
>generally given credit for doing.

Yes, but then there are the docs with pop and candy vending machines
in their waiting rooms, who could really give a rip.  Real leaders.

>The supporters of CAM fight this suggestion tooth and nail but the
>best thing that could happen to them would be to allow some government
>regulations. AT least then manufacturing standards could be enforced
>and you would have some idea of what you are taking.

Yes, and then the pharma industry would swoop down and swallow the
nutriceutical industry whole, through lobbying and additional
regulations.  I guess they could always get sales jobs with the pharma
companies.

>The third "problem" for those that like to complain about conventional
>medicine's failure to adopt CAM is that as the treatments become
>proved they morph into conventional treatments and leave the realm of
>CAM. By this (very realistic) definition docs will never accept "CAM".

Sure they will, when the acronym is changed to Complementary And Mine.
CBI - 04 May 2004 18:36 GMT
> >This a falacy has been exposed many times as well. If I embrace a new
> >treatment that works (which I do all the time) then my patients get
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> back for the rest of their lives as long as there is no cure for their
> disease.

Unless you are claiming that But* produces immortality then there will
always be sick people. With the baby boomers hitting their 60's there
is no fear within the medical community of an impending lack of
patients.

> What do you think the people who have cured themselves of their asthma
> think about you?  

Probably about the same as the pink elephants .


> There is so much concern in the medical community about the move to
> alternatives that they actually teach alternative and complementary
> therapies in medical schools today.  At last count some 65% of
> American medical schools were teaching alternative and complementary
> therapies.

You do like to have it both ways, don't you? If they don't teach it
you complain that it is being suppressed. If they do teach it you
complain that about.....um....er... it is not really clear to me what
you are complaining about.

> <snip all the rest of the bullshit that has been thrashed out many
> times before>

You did this about 100 or so lines too late.

Signature

CBI, MD

Joy - 04 May 2004 19:38 GMT
> >> > If you would bother to read the hyperventilation literature, Joy,
> >> > then you would understand how so many apparently unrelated disorders
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> anxiety and panic attacks by doctors.  In other words,  your take is a
> typical example of this error.

I decided that the reason carpal tunnel release surgery works is that it
causes people to stop hyperventilating, which according to B* is the cause
of the disorder. Therefore, everyone who wishes not to have to go to the
effort of learning B* breathing should just have a carpal release and then
they will breathe more slowly and in turn, they can cure their asthma!

It is so easy. I don't know why Kolb didn't think of this before.
Meghan Noecker - 05 May 2004 04:07 GMT
>I decided that the reason carpal tunnel release surgery works is that it
>causes people to stop hyperventilating, which according to B* is the cause
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>It is so easy. I don't know why Kolb didn't think of this before.

I'm still trying to figure out how somebody can hyperventilate on a
regular basis for decades and not know they are hyperventilating.

Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
Joy - 05 May 2004 08:27 GMT
> I'm still trying to figure out how somebody can hyperventilate on a
> regular basis for decades and not know they are hyperventilating.

That is a mystery. Ask Kolb. They don't understand that part exactly. For
instance, you can't observe or test for it.
But B* says it is happening so they all accept it.
Blues Ma - 05 May 2004 14:33 GMT
> > I'm still trying to figure out how somebody can hyperventilate on a
> > regular basis for decades and not know they are hyperventilating.
>
> That is a mystery. Ask Kolb. They don't understand that part exactly. For
> instance, you can't observe or test for it.
> But B* says it is happening so they all accept it.

Could they just be mistaking shallow tide breathers ?
I've observed many people who work at computers all day that never seem to
take anything but very short breaths.?? When stressed the rate increases, but

scarcely to the hyperventilating level.
Does anyone actually believe that stuff ?
?
?
Joy - 05 May 2004 18:31 GMT
Yeah, they believe that stuff. Look, if the regular medical community can't
help you, where are you supposed to go? I had that experience myself. The
"best" doc in ATL told me he couldn't help me. You bet I visited every
available recourse..

There is a condition where the heart rate rises due to inactivity called
deconditioning. You are supposed to be able to overcome that with 3 months
of cardiovascular training, but I know several people with asthma who
continue to report high heart rates even after the appropriate exercise. I
am watching that myself since it effects me.

Also read
http://www.mc.vanderbilt.edu/gcrc/adc/
Many of the heart/sob conditions the BE* people claim to fix are being
investigated by Vanderbilt. Look at the National Dysautonomia Research
Foundation papers.The definitive article which appeared 4 years ago
regarding vasovagal issues, suggested that these cases genetic in origin.
And I do have a couple of kids with this problem. It does not suggest that
the problem is OVERBREATHING. Another conflict between the CAM and the
regular medical community. That means of course that someone in the medical
community failed to understand the CAM. Well, read for yourself.

Expert Reviews in Molecular Medicine: http://www-ermm.cbcu.cam.ac.uk
Accession information: (01)00387-8h.htm (shortcode: txt001drn); 19 November
2001
Reprint/PDF version How to cite this article

Genetic or acquired deficits in the norepinephrine transporter: current
understanding of clinical implications
Tahir Tellioglu and David Robertson

The norepinephrine transporter (NET) has a major role in terminating the
neurochemical signal established by the neurotransmitter norepinephrine (NE)
in the synaptic cleft. The NET is also the initial site of action for
therapeutic antidepressants, and drugs such as cocaine and amphetamines.
Polymorphisms in the NET gene have been identified, and associations with
several disorders such as depression have been proposed but not established.
However, evidence of a direct association between a genetic mutation of the
NET and an autonomic clinical syndrome has recently emerged. A patient and
her identical twin were evaluated for typical symptoms of orthostatic
intolerance (OI), a disorder mainly characterised by elevated heart rate on
standing, and both were found to have clinical and laboratory signs of
abnormal uptake of NE. Sequence analysis of the patients? NET gene
identified a mutation that resulted in more than 98% loss of function as
compared with the wild-type gene. This article reconsiders the important
role of the NET protein in the regulation of the nervous and cardiovascular
systems, reviews the literature for its polymorphisms and their suggested
clinical manifestations, and finally focuses on the effects of its defect on
the pathophysiology of OI, the only confirmed direct association between a
genetic mutation of the NET and a clinical syndrome.

Expert Reviews in Molecular Medicine ? Cambridge University Press ISSN
1462-3994

Author contact details

Catecholamines, a term for the hormones epinephrine (E, adrenaline),
norepinephrine (NE, noradrenaline) and dopamine, function as
neurotransmitters within the central nervous system (CNS) (Ref. 1). They are
involved in readying the body for the fight-or-flight response (also known
as the alarm reaction). Upon NE and E release, the heart beats stronger and
faster, blood pressure rises, more blood flows to the brain and muscles, the
liver releases stores of energy as a sugar the body can readily use
(glucose), the rate of breathing increases and airways widen, and digestive
activity slows. These reactions direct more oxygen and fuel to the organs
most active in responding to stress ? mainly the brain, heart and skeletal
muscles.

Catecholamines are synthesised from the amino acid tyrosine, which is
sequentially hydroxylated to form dihydroxyphenylalanine (dopa),
decarboxylated to form dopamine, and hydroxylated to form NE (see Fig. 1;
fig001drn). NE, the neurotransmitter of postganglionic sympathetic nerve
endings, exerts its effects locally, in the immediate vicinity of its
release. E, the circulating hormone of the adrenal medulla, influences
processes throughout the body. The release of NE at the sympathetic nerve
ending is triggered by depolarisation of the axonal membrane by an action
potential. NE release is presumed to occur by exocytosis. The biological
effects of catecholamines are terminated rapidly by uptake into the
sympathetic nerve endings, by conversion to inactive metabolites, and by
renal excretion. (For a comprehensive review of catecholamines, see Ref. 1.)

The concentration of catecholamines in the sympathoadrenal system remains
relatively constant despite marked changes in the level of sympathetic
activity. This steady state is the result of a careful balance among
catecholamine biosynthesis, storage, release, re-uptake and metabolism.
Genetic or acquired deficits could affect any of these steps and cause
alterations in the concentration of catecholamines, which has been suggested
to contribute to the development of some psychiatric and cardiovascular
disorders. Indeed, a recent study has linked a specific genetic defect in
the norepinephrine transporter (NET) protein with the disorder orthostatic
intolerance (OI). We discuss the implication of this finding towards the end
of this review article.

Norepinephrine
The neurochemical messenger NE plays an important role in human physiology
(Ref. 1). In the CNS, NE is involved in mood regulation, sleep regulation,
expression of behaviour, and the general degree of alertness and arousal. NE
also exerts central control over the endocrine and autonomic nervous system.
Outside the CNS and adrenal glands, NE is located in the sympathetic nerve
endings, and the NE content of a particular tissue reflects the extent of
its sympathetic innervation. Basal plasma NE concentrations are usually in
the range of 100 pg/ml to 350 pg/ml, are similar in men and women, and tend
to increase with age (Refs 2, 3). Basal NE levels vary throughout the day,
with the lowest levels occurring during the night, even in subjects who
remain continuously supine (Ref. 4). More than half of any interindividual
variation in plasma NE appears to be caused by undefined genetic factors
(Ref. 5).

The norepinephrine transporter
Re-uptake of NE by the NET protein (also known as uptake 1) is the primary
mechanism by which the biological effects of NE in the synapse are
terminated. This axonal event is an energy-requiring, saturable, sodium- and
chloride-dependent process (Ref. 6) (see Fig. 1; fig001drn). Approximately
70?90% of the NE released into many synapses is cleared by this mechanism,
and the remaining 10?30% spills over into the circulation or extraneuronal
tissue (uptake 2) (Ref. 7). The inactivation process through NET is
extremely important to prevent excessive increase of the NE concentration in
the synaptic cleft, and to limit its actions. NE re-uptake is relatively
more noticeable in heavily innervated tissues, such as heart. Interestingly,
the noradrenergic synaptic clefts in the heart are approximately three times
as narrow as the synaptic distances in the vasculature (Ref. 8), and
extraneuronal uptake (uptake 2) of the NE plays only a minor role in the
heart (Ref. 9). Therefore, the removal of NE from the synapses in the heart
is far more dependent on the activity of the NET than is NE removal from
synapses in the vascular beds (Ref. 10); thus, any impairment of NET would
markedly increase the NE concentration in the synaptic clefts of the cardiac
muscle.
Re-uptake of NE is competitive with a variety of naturally occurring amines
and drugs. Drugs of abuse such as amphetamine and cocaine, and
antidepressants (e.g. desipramine, imipramine, venlafaxine, mirtazapine,
reboxetine, bupropion), block the transport of NE, and result in an
elevation of the synaptic concentrations of NE and potentiation of the
activation of postsynaptic receptors (Refs 11, 12). Recent evidence has
shown that treatments with drugs that alter noradrenergic transmission can
cause an up- or downregulation of the NET (Ref. 13), which causes changes in
the sensitivity to endogenous catecholamines (Ref. 14). This phenomenon
contributes to the mechanism of action of some of these agents.

Knowledge of the gene structure of the antidepressant-sensitive NET
facilitates investigation of its potential role in psychiatric and/or other
disorders, and might aid structure-based drug design for the treatment of
human depression. Therefore, the transport protein responsible for neuronal
uptake of NE has been extensively investigated in the past decade. NET was
isolated by expression cloning in 1991, and the gene was found to be located
on human chromosome 16q 12.2 (Refs 15, 16). The NET gene is encoded by 14
exons, which span 45 kb from the start to the stop codon (Ref. 17). The
nucleotide and deduced amino acid sequence of the transporter predict a
protein of 617 amino acids, containing 12 membrane-spanning domains (Ref.
18) (see Fig. 2; fig002drn). The organisation of the protein is highly
homologous to that of other neurotransmitter transporters including those
transporting dopamine, epinephrine, serotonin and gamma-aminobutyric acid
(GABA), which are members of a family of sodium- and chloride-dependent
transport proteins in the plasma membranes of neurons and glial cells (Refs
17, 19).

NET polymorphisms
Genetic variations have been reported in the gene encoding the NET protein.
The complete coding region of the NET gene has begun to be screened for
genetic variants by single-stranded conformational polymorphism analysis,
and 13 DNA sequence variants have so far been identified (Ref. 20).
Similarly, an association between an exonic silent NET polymorphism (G1287A)
and the concentrations of monoamine metabolites in lumbar cerebrospinal
fluid (CSF) has been reported in healthy volunteers (Ref. 21). Efforts to
prove potential associations between genetic variances in the NET protein
and several psychiatric and cardiovascular disorders have not yet confirmed
the functional significance of the NET polymorphisms investigated.

NE dysregulation in psychiatric disorders
Alterations in the concentration of NE in the CNS have been hypothesised to
cause, or contribute to, the development of psychiatric illnesses such as
major depression. Many studies have reported altered levels of NE and its
metabolites normetanephrine (NMN) and dihydroxyphenylglycol (DHPG) in the
CSF, plasma and urine of depressed patients as compared with normal controls
(Refs 22, 23, 24). These variances could reflect different underlying
phenotypes of depressive disorders with varying effects on NE activity. The
melancholic subtype of depression [with positive vegetative features,
agitation, and increased hypothalamic?pituitary?adrenal (HPA) axis activity]
is most often associated with increased NE (Ref. 25). Alternatively,
so-called atypical depression is associated with decreased NE and HPA axis
hypoactivation (Ref. 25). In one study, urinary NE and its metabolites were
found to be significantly higher in unipolar and bipolar depressed patients
than in healthy volunteers, suggesting that unmedicated unipolar and bipolar
depressed patients have a hyperresponsive noradrenergic system (Ref. 26).
Increased NE activity has also been observed as a contributor to the
borderline personality disorder traits of impulsive aggression and affective
instability, high levels of risk taking, irritability, and verbal aggression
(Refs 27, 28).

Furthermore, abnormal regulation or expression of the human NET has been
reported in major depression (Ref. 29). In postmortem human brain, the
binding of [3H]nisoxetine to NET was measured autoradiographically, and high
levels of NET were identified mainly in dorsal raphe nuclei and in the locus
coeruleus (LC) (Ref. 30). However, in subjects diagnosed with major
depression, NET was decreased in the LC without significant differences in
the number of noradrenergic cells in brain tissues collected postmortem
(Ref. 29). Low levels of NET in the LC in major depression might reflect a
compensatory downregulation of this transporter protein in response to an
insufficient availability of its substrate (NE) at the synapse. These
studies suggest that abnormalities that can cause impaired noradrenergic
transmission could contribute to the pathophysiology of certain psychiatric
disorders.

NET polymorphisms in psychiatric disorders
Mutations in the gene encoding the NET (Table 1; tab001drn) have been
considered as a potential basis for some psychiatric illnesses. Thirteen NET
DNA sequence variants have been identified in patients suffering from
schizophrenia or bipolar affective disorder (Ref. 20). However, subsequent
case?control studies did not reveal any significant association between the
variances and those diseases (Ref. 20). In another study, 105 patients with
major depression, and 74 unrelated, matched controls, were analysed for a
silent G1287A polymorphism in exon 9 of the NET gene, but no significant
differences in genotype or allele frequencies were found between controls
and patients (Ref. 31). Hadley et al. genotyped six multigenerational
pedigrees containing multiple cases of manic depression with a DNA
polymorphism for the NET gene (Ref. 32). Using both parametric and
nonparametric methods, the authors found no evidence of linkage between
manic depression and the NET gene.

It has been suggested that polymorphisms of monoamine transporter genes
might contribute to personality factors. A recent study investigated the
association between temperamental personality dimensions (novelty seeking,
reward dependence, persistence and harm avoidance), measured with the
Temperament and Character Inventory (TCI), and polymorphism of the NET in
127 healthy Polish volunteers (Ref. 33). The NET gene polymorphisms showed
no significant association with any of the temperamental TCI subdimensions.

Dysregulation of NE has also been hypothesised to be involved in the
pathophysiology of Tourette syndrome (TS), an inherited, complex
neuropsychiatric disorder characterised by motor and vocal tics. Although
the predominance of evidence supports a critical role for dopamine
involvement, a central NE hyperactivity was suggested by the therapeutic
effects of the alpha2 adrenergic receptor agonist clonidine (Ref. 34).
Furthermore, antidepressant treatments that increase the NE content in CNS
have been shown to worsen the symptoms of TS (Ref. 35), consistent with a
genetic association of the NET gene with TS. Nonetheless, allele frequency
and genotype distribution of 12 DNA sequence polymorphisms showed no
differences between TS patients and controls (Ref. 36).

In summary, although alterations in the concentration of NE in the CNS have
been reported with major psychiatric disorders, there is currently no
evidence that NET dysfunction or abnormal gene sequence contributes to any
psychiatric illness.

NET downregulation in congestive heart failure
Patients with congestive heart failure (CHF) have increased sympathetic
nerve activity, as well as increased plasma and urinary levels of NE
concomitant with the severity of the ventricular dysfunction (Refs 37, 38,
39). Impairment of NE re-uptake by the NET has been shown in CHF (Refs 9,
40, 41). Although the exact mechanism involved in the NET impairment in CHF
is unclear, a significant reduction in the NET binding sites without a
decrease in NET gene expression and without a loss of noradrenergic nerve
terminals has been reported in an animal model of CHF (Ref. 42). In a recent
study, cardiac NET density has been found to be inversely correlated with
beta-adrenergic receptor kinase 1 (beta ARK1), a G-protein-coupled receptor
kinase that phosphorylates and desensitises beta-adrenergic receptors (Ref.
43). Inhibition of beta ARK1 activity or expression significantly enhances
cardiac function and potentiates beta-adrenergic receptor signalling in
failing cardiomyocytes (Ref. 44). This finding promises novel strategies in
the therapy of CHF.

NET gene mutation in OI
OI is a disorder of the autonomic nervous system and is characterised by a
variety of symptoms including increased heart rate (>100 beats/min),
weakness, fatigue, lightheadedness, nausea, excessive sweating, altered
mentation, and fainting, and these symptoms generally occur immediately
after assuming a standing position (Ref. 45). It has been estimated that
approximately 500 000 Americans suffer from some form of this disorder (Ref.
45). Patients often have high plasma NE concentrations (at least 600 pg/ml)
in relation to sympathetic outflow on standing, suggesting that the disorder
is a hyperadrenergic condition (Refs 46, 47). The pathophysiology of OI has
been associated with autonomic or neuroendocrine dysregulation, but, until
recently, its causes remained largely unknown, and were suggested to include
a variety of genetic and environmental factors. In particular, it was not
known whether the high levels of plasma NE in OI patients were a consequence
of increased release from neurons or decreased removal by NET.

The discovery of an OI patient who shared the disorder with her identical
twin sister prompted the search for a genetic basis (Ref. 3). Upon standing,
the twin sisters had very high plasma NE levels with relatively decreased
plasma DHPG, and a decreased NE clearance, indicating that much of the
increase in plasma NE resulted from an impaired removal of NE from the
synapse by NET.

The presence of similar biochemical and clinical findings in the twins
suggested a genetic origin. Direct sequence analysis of the patients? NET
gene (SLC6A2) on chromosome 16q (16) revealed two novel polymorphisms [a
silent (C154A) and a missense (G237C) mutation] (Ref. 3). The missense
mutation resulted in the replacement of an alanine residue with a proline
residue (Ala457Pro) in a highly conserved transmembrane region of the
transporter (see Fig. 2; fig002drn). Functional analysis of the patient?s
defective NET demonstrated that it had only 2% of the activity of the
transporter encoded by the wild-type gene in in vitro studies. Because the
substitution of proline disrupts the alpha-helical secondary structures that
are supported by alanine residues, this mutation might disrupt the transport
of NE.

The genetic defect in the NET protein, which results in decreased NET
activity, could explain cardiovascular and endocrine abnormalities such as
postural tachycardia and high plasma concentrations of NE in some patients
with OI. However, the G237C mutation was not detected in 40 other patients
with OI, and in 200 unrelated people including normal subjects and patients
with hypertension (Ref. 3). Thus, other genetic or environmental factors
must have contributed to the phenotype in patients with the specific gene
defect. Overall, the identification of NET deficiency provides a
pathophysiological focus that could potentially bring together the cardiac,
autonomic and CNS manifestations of OI.

Autoimmune mechanisms in NET impairment
The NET protein could be a possible target of an autoimmune reaction. Nearly
half of OI patients have had a recent viral illness such as the common cold,
before the onset of their symptoms (Refs 45, 48), suggesting that a
virus-triggered autoimmune reaction could be related to the pathophysiology
of OI. Although specific antibodies for nicotinic acetylcholine receptors
have been identified in the OI patients (Ref. 49), antibodies selective for
the NET have not yet been detected.

In a recent paper, we discussed a patient who had been suffering from Behcet
?s disease (a multisystem disorder presenting with vasculitis and
circulating autoantibodies) and had recently developed the autonomic
disorder OI (Ref. 50). The pathophysiology of OI and Behcet?s disease are
not well understood, but a common theory for each is a previous viral
infection. Higher serum antibodies against viruses including herpes simplex,
hepatitis C and parvovirus B19 are found in patients with Behcet?s disease,
suggesting a possible trigger role involving cross-reactive autoimmune
responses (Refs 51, 52).

Clinical implications and future directions
The steady-state regulation of the noradrenergic system is the result of an
intact NET. This system can be affected by several medications, by
haemodynamic changes (up- or downregulation), or by genetic defects in its
protein structure, and might contribute to the pathophysiology of major
disorders.

A decrease in transporter activity results in decreased removal of NE from
the synapses, but the specific symptoms of the diseases occur with some
anatomical features: the noradrenergic clefts in heart are approximately
three times narrower than the synaptic clefts in the vasculature (Ref. 8),
making NE removal in the heart more dependent on the activity of the NET
(Ref. 53). This phenomenon might explain the disproportionately greater
effect on heart rate than on blood pressure observed in patients with OI.

The genetic deficiency in the NET protein associated with OI is the first
functional mutation in human NET to be discovered, and suggests that there
might be other mutations that can affect NE regulation and contribute to the
pathophysiology of other diseases related to NE dysregulation. This might
also be the case for serotonin and dopamine transporters. Intensive research
has been going on, but no mutations have been detected yet.

This discovery of the association of NET mutation and OI should lead to
investigation of NET?s potential role in psychiatric, cardiovascular and/or
any other disorders. Although there is currently no evidence that abnormal
NET dysfunction contributes to any psychiatric illness, alterations in the
concentration of NE in the CNS suggest that NE dysregulation might cause, or
contribute to, the development of psychiatric illnesses.

Our new knowledge about the functional mutation of NET might aid
structure-based drug design for the treatment of human disease. Careful
psychiatric and neurological assessment of patients in whom NET functional
mutations are encountered should ultimately elucidate the role of this gene
product in CNS disorders.

Acknowledgements and funding
The authors thank John A. Phillips III, MD (Division of Genetics, Vanderbilt
University Medical Center, Nashville, TN, USA) and Richard Shelton, MD
(Department of Psychiatry, Vanderbilt University Medical Center, Nashville,
TN, USA) for reviewing the manuscript.

> > > I'm still trying to figure out how somebody can hyperventilate on a
> > > regular basis for decades and not know they are hyperventilating.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I've observed many people who work at computers all day that never seem to
> take anything but very short breaths. When stressed the rate increases,
but

> scarcely to the hyperventilating level.
> Does anyone actually believe that stuff ?
Meghan Noecker - 07 May 2004 04:48 GMT
>> > I'm still trying to figure out how somebody can hyperventilate on a
>> > regular basis for decades and not know they are hyperventilating.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>Does anyone actually believe that stuff ?
>?

Well, I am 31 years old. I was diagnosed with asthma when I was 17.
Thinming back, I did have some symptoms when I was younger, but not
enough to speak up about it.

And I believe I have hyperventilated only once, about 5 years ago,
after I inhaled acid reflux the first time. I was having an asthma
attack, my throat and lungs were on fire, and my vocal cords were not
cooperating. It was over half an hour before I could speak. I was
pretty freaked out.

Most of my breathing is quite normal. Not shallow or fast. So, I don't
see how I could possibly be hyperventilating. Yet supposedly, this is
the cause of my wrist hurting? Yah, right.More likely, it is caused by
the activities preceding the pain.

Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
Joy - 07 May 2004 05:19 GMT
> Well, I am 31 years old. I was diagnosed with asthma when I was 17.
> Thinming back, I did have some symptoms when I was younger, but not
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> the cause of my wrist hurting? Yah, right.More likely, it is caused by
> the activities preceding the pain.

Your experience is, in my view, more typical. If I do more with my hands, I
have more problems. It seems to have nothing to do with breathing, or
asthma, or any of the other claims. Over the last few years, the B* people
have been not as insistent they have a cure - something every asthmatic
could have predicted.
 
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