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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Asthma / March 2007Oxygen
I apologize for posting this in an asthma group but you're sort-of related. There don't appear to be any COPD groups and the forums on the net seem to be few and far between and unpopular. Sheesh, one's supposed to be able to find anything on the internet but looks like I've struck out here. Maybe you folks can suggest some possibilities (web sites, NG's, etc). I have a particular need for 5 to 10 minutes of free breathing five times a week but unfortunately I can't achieve this due to mild COPD and probable atherosclerosis (plaque in the arteries). In a wild moment it occurred to me that my salvation might be in the use of oxygen. Artherosclerosis causes what's generally referred to as lack of blood especially to the extremities (legs mainly) but is really lack of oxygen which causes pain (intermittent claudication). If I can up the carrying capacity of the blood for a short while this pain will disappear or not occur in the first place. Similarly, the straining to breathe on exertion should be ameliorated by super-oxygenating the blood. I imagine the effect would be snort-snort, suck in O2 for a couple of minutes, then go about my business and anticipate the effect would last five or so minutes before the blood oxygen content returned to normal. I'm not interested in doing this under medical supervision (just the very idea of "supervision" makes my skin crawl) and I'm not interested in spending big bucks. What I want to do is take a welding tank of O2 and jerry-rig some sort of mask so I can suck it up. Now I'm sure I'm not the first to think of this so where's the website describing some guy's experience? Does anyone have any first hand knowledge? I can't help you with your question about oxygen, but if you go to www.yahoo.com and then look click on Groups in the left column, and do a search for a group discussing COPD, you'll find some groups with hundreds of members. You might find some support there. Also, if you go to www.google.com and enter a search using the term 'COPD forum', you'll find some message boards. Good luck. >I can't help you with your question about oxygen, but if you go to >www.yahoo.com and then look click on Groups in the left column, and do a >search for a group discussing COPD, you'll find some groups with hundreds of >members. You might find some support there. >Also, if you go to www.google.com and enter a search using the term 'COPD >forum', you'll find some message boards. Haven't tried yahoo, thanks. The google groups are the "unpopular" ones I referred to in my original posting. Apart from the spam there's maybe one posting per month. >I apologize for posting this in an asthma group but you're sort-of > related. There don't appear to be any COPD groups and the forums on [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > describing some guy's experience? Does anyone have any first hand > knowledge? The vast majority of oxygen in the blood is carried by hemoglobin. It is otherwise not very soluble and so "supersaturation" to any meaningful degree is not possible. The only two ways to significantly increase oxygen carrying capacity is to increased the hemoglobin levels or increase the hemoglobin saturation. If you are anemic then increasing hemoglobin levels would help. If not then trying to increase them will likely increase the viscosity of the blood and actually reduced the flow through narrowed atherosclerotic arteries. If your oxygen saturations are low (which would imply more than mild COPD) then supplementing with oxygen would probably help. If the hemoglobin is already well saturated then the excess would largely be wasted. All of the blood in your body circulates about once a minute. When people have the oxygen levels they breath changed the blood levels change with a few minutes after the change. Sometimes we have people just use oxygen at night if the levels tend to dip during sleep or just when more active but taking just a few minutes of oxygen is likely to only give just a few minutes of relief (assuming it helps at all). Oxygen is both a potent drug with benefits and side effects and a flammable chemical. It's sale is regulated and I think you will have trouble getting it and using it without proper authority. Furthermore there are treatments for both COPD and peripheral vascular disease that include oxygen, procedures, and other medications. Doctors just might be able to help you if you are willing to let them. Lastly, your lung and vascular disease suggest that you are probably at high risk for heart disease and strokes. Many of the things that can be done to reduce the risks would also help with your symptoms. Seeing a doctor might do far more for you than just make your legs feel better.  Signature00doc > Oxygen is both a potent drug with benefits and side effects and a flammable > chemical. It's sale is regulated and I think you will have trouble getting [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > reduce the risks would also help with your symptoms. Seeing a doctor might > do far more for you than just make your legs feel better. I agree about the medical supervision. You'r self-diagnosing and treating. A bad idea. Better your skin crawls than your heart stops. Going for the cheap way out may also be a bad idea since you can overdose on O2 (oxidosis, I think it's called). And commercial gases may not be of the purity level that makes them safe to breathe. You need a medical grade. Welders don't care too much is there are certain contaminants, but your body might. -- Lou Pecora (my views are my own) REMOVE THIS to email me. There are a number of excellent COPD support groups and web sites. www.emphysema.net , www.copdfoundation.org/ http://www.copd-alert.com/ , http://copd-support1.com/ should get you started. Most of these have listservers and are not "internet news groups" as is this asthma group. I fully understand exactly where you stand because I could have written your letter, word for word, five years ago. Eventually I went to my doctor, got a heart stress test (and ended up with two stents a couple of days later) went to cardiac rehab, insisted on seeing a pulmonologist, transferred to pulmonary rehab, got prescribed oxygen and other meds. Learn about your disease(s), find out what the right treatment is and follow through. If you smoke - quit, if you don't exercise (at least 45 minutes walking a day) - start, use the right inhalers and, if you need oxygen, then use it in a way that will benefit your body keeping O2 saturation at least above 90%(see http://www.nonin.com/documents/pettyBook.pdf ). You can't get to where you want to be without medical help. Chris W >> Oxygen is both a potent drug with benefits and side effects and a >> flammable [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > -- Lou Pecora (my views are my own) REMOVE THIS to email me. >There are a number of excellent COPD support groups and web sites. >www.emphysema.net , www.copdfoundation.org/ >http://www.copd-alert.com/ , http://copd-support1.com/ >should get you started. Most of these have listservers and are not "internet >news groups" as is this asthma group. I don't like listservers, nor forums but I'll put up with latter. I'm not looking to exchange views on COPD: just find someone who has used welding O2 for instant relief. One of the above (sorry, don't remember which, I've seen so many in the last few days) has a forum but it's hardly used. What there is is preaching. >I fully understand exactly where you stand because I could have written your >letter, word for word, five years ago. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Learn about your disease(s), find out what the right treatment is and follow >through. Nannyism pure and simple. Here's the treatment for COPD: and here's how to unblock clogged arteries: (you're supposed to get blank lines indicating there's no treatment (in the sense of cure) for either). > If you smoke - quit, if you don't exercise (at least 45 minutes >walking a day) - start, Never have and don't intend to start now. > use the right inhalers and, if you need oxygen, then >use it in a way that will benefit your body keeping O2 saturation at least >above 90%(see http://www.nonin.com/documents/pettyBook.pdf ). >You can't get to where you want to be without medical help. I don't think I can get there with medical help either (regression to 18 yo <g>). >> Oxygen is both a potent drug with benefits and side effects and a flammable >> chemical. It's sale is regulated and I think you will have trouble getting >> it and using it without proper authority. Furthermore there are treatments >> for both COPD and peripheral vascular disease that include oxygen, >> procedures, and other medications. Doctors just might be able to help you if >> you are willing to let them. >> Lastly, your lung and vascular disease suggest that you are probably at high >> risk for heart disease and strokes. Many of the things that can be done to >> reduce the risks would also help with your symptoms. Seeing a doctor might >> do far more for you than just make your legs feel better. >I agree about the medical supervision. You'r self-diagnosing and >treating. A bad idea. Better your skin crawls than your heart stops. You have to die of something. >Going for the cheap way out may also be a bad idea since you can >overdose on O2 (oxidosis, I think it's called). You get plenty of warning from what I've read. There is a possibility of stopping breathing owing to lack of CO2 (which surprisingly is the controller not O2) but this only happens in the intensive care environment. > And commercial gases >may not be of the purity level that makes them safe to breathe. > You >need a medical grade. Welders don't care too much is there are certain >contaminants, but your body might. Oh yes they are. In the old days the methods of extracting O2 used oil-lubricated pumps and there was some validity to the contamination angle: today all O2 you're likely to get for any purpose has been though the liquefaction stage and is devoid of moisture and contaminants. According to a light plane owner, they fill the bottles, be they medical, aviation, or welding from the same tank. They just charge different prices. Note both the objections above are nullified by the emergence of the oxygen bar phenomena. Although the FDA (see their website) doesn't like the idea they don't intervene because it's pretty innocuous. >>Going for the cheap way out may also be a bad idea since you can >>overdose on O2 (oxidosis, I think it's called). > > You get plenty of warning from what I've read. No, not really. Oxygen is an oxidant. The increased damage to the lung tissue from increased oxidation would manifest as an incidious worsening of symptoms. Ditto your vascular disease. > There is a possibility > of stopping breathing owing to lack of CO2 (which surprisingly is the > controller not O2) but this only happens in the intensive care > environment. No. CO2 is usually what determines respiratory rate when it is in the low range. If you have severe chronic lung diease you may start to retain CO2 and lose your sensitivity to high levels. In that case low oxygen levels become the back-up respiratory drive. if you supplement the low levels to high ones then you remove all respiratory drive and slow down your breathing. This causes you to retain even more CO2, the blood becomes more acidic, and you die of CO2 toxicity and acidosis - usually from an abnormal heart rhythm. The whole point is that you never will feel short of breath (if you did there woul dbe no problem) or otherwise uncomfortable. You would just become sleepy and never wake up. I happens to people with severe COPD in their normal state of health - not limited to the ICU. Signature00doc > >I agree about the medical supervision. You'r self-diagnosing and > >treating. A bad idea. Better your skin crawls than your heart stops. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > oxygen bar phenomena. Although the FDA (see their website) doesn't > like the idea they don't intervene because it's pretty innocuous. Fine. Go out and get the O2 at Home Depot and do it already. You're just hanging around and arguing. You asked advice, you got it. If you're still around after that, let us know if it worked. -- Lou Pecora (my views are my own) REMOVE THIS to email me. <snip> >> I'm not interested in doing this under medical supervision (just the >> very idea of "supervision" makes my skin crawl) and I'm not interested >> in spending big bucks. What I want to do is take a welding tank of O2 >> and jerry-rig some sort of mask so I can suck it up. >> Now I'm sure I'm not the first to think of this so where's the website >> describing some guy's experience? Does anyone have any first hand >> knowledge? >The vast majority of oxygen in the blood is carried by hemoglobin. It is >otherwise not very soluble and so "supersaturation" to any meaningful degree >is not possible. The only two ways to significantly increase oxygen carrying >capacity is to increased the hemoglobin levels or increase the hemoglobin >saturation. >If you are anemic then increasing hemoglobin levels would help. If not then >trying to increase them will likely increase the viscosity of the blood and >actually reduced the flow through narrowed atherosclerotic arteries. >If your oxygen saturations are low (which would imply more than mild COPD) >then supplementing with oxygen would probably help. If the hemoglobin is >already well saturated then the excess would largely be wasted. >All of the blood in your body circulates about once a minute. When people >have the oxygen levels they breath changed the blood levels change with a >few minutes after the change. Sometimes we have people just use oxygen at >night if the levels tend to dip during sleep or just when more active but >taking just a few minutes of oxygen is likely to only give just a few >minutes of relief (assuming it helps at all). Hmmm. Except that athletes cheat using O2, people at high altitudes relieve their breathlessness by using O2, people use O2 to relieve headaches (those that seem to be related to a stuffy environment), people use O2 in bars to get somewhat of a high,... I'd like to hear from someone who has done what I intend or I'll follow through with my plans. >Oxygen is both a potent drug with benefits and side effects and a flammable >chemical. O2 is not flammable. > It's sale is regulated and I think you will have trouble getting >it and using it without proper authority. It's sale might be regulated for medical use but I can buy O2 in Home Depot and a trip to the welding supply store yesterday yielded an offer of a large portable tank (full at 2000psi) for $90 and a stationary monster tank. I was even offered medical grade which apparently uses a different valve. The other places which sell O2 are scuba diving outlets (probably regulated since they too have established a guild) and aviation (not regulated but you really have to have a plane or at least access to the airport). > Furthermore there are treatments >for both COPD and peripheral vascular disease that include oxygen, >procedures, and other medications. Doctors just might be able to help you if >you are willing to let them. I've read the latest texts and even the pontifications of the WHO. None are too impressive. >Lastly, your lung and vascular disease suggest that you are probably at high >risk for heart disease and strokes. BP = 120/75, lipids within normal range, that new test whose name escapes me at the moment shows normal risk for both cardiac and vascular events, not overweight, not diabetic (or even close on the latter two). I don't think so. > Many of the things that can be done to >reduce the risks would also help with your symptoms. Seeing a doctor might >do far more for you than just make your legs feel better. I see the PCP regularly. Not the point. > Hmmm. Except that athletes cheat using O2, 1) That's not considered cheating - they do it openly (not that it really matters for this discussion). 2) When you look on the sidelines of a pro game maybe one or two are sucking oxygen. It provides them with a subjective and probably completely psychological lift. If giving O2 to well trained athletes to aid rapid recovery had any evidence or even half way decent theory behind it the coaches and trainers would see to it that each and every one of the guys on the sidelines had an oxygen mask on his face. What does the fact that they don't do this tell you? > people at high altitudes > relieve their breathlessness by using O2, At high altitude all of the gasses are at lower concentrations (called partial pressures) and so the oxygen saturation of the hemoglobin is lower than at sea level. Giving oxygen in this case works because it increases the oxygen saturation. > people use O2 to relieve > headaches (those that seem to be related to a stuffy environment), Yes, they do but that is a completely diferent issue. It is not that headaches are caused by low oxygen levels and the oxygen is fixing them. The theory is that migraines (the type of headache peopel use oxygen to treat) are caused by blood vesssels constricting and then dilating. Oxygen causes blood vessels to constrict and so for some (but not all) people relieves their migraines. This example actually provides an argument against your proposed use since blood vessel constriction ( if you believe the theory) would not be a good thing for you. > people use O2 in bars to get somewhat of a high,... They obviously think they feel better. I suspect it is largely placebo. Besides, a few people thinking they get high does not really support you taking it for a completely different reason. > I'd like to hear > from someone who has done what I intend or I'll follow through with my > plans. That is your perogative. I'm not your nanny. I'm just trying to correct your (many) misperceptions. >>Oxygen is both a potent drug with benefits and side effects and a >>flammable >>chemical. > > O2 is not flammable. Tell that to several people I have treated after flames shot up their nose after smoking while wearing oxygen. You are technically correct but wrong in real world practice. Oxygen itself does not burn (and so is not considered flammable by chemists) but it accelerates burning to the point where things that normallly would not ignite into flame will when increased oxygen is around. So it is considered by safety authorities to be a fire hazzard and it is considered prudent to handle it as a flammable gas since if you mix oxygen and sparks flames will often ensue in environments were the spark alone would not have produced any. >> It's sale is regulated and I think you will have trouble getting >>it and using it without proper authority. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > established a guild) and aviation (not regulated but you really have > to have a plane or at least access to the airport). I stand corrected. >> Furthermore there are treatments >>for both COPD and peripheral vascular disease that include oxygen, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I've read the latest texts and even the pontifications of the WHO. > None are too impressive. I think you will find they compare favorably to 5 minutes of home rigged oxygen. >>Lastly, your lung and vascular disease suggest that you are probably at >>high [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > vascular events, not overweight, not diabetic (or even close on the > latter two). I don't think so. If you really have perpheral vascular disease then you are at high risk even if you do not have other risk factors. The blood vessels in the heart and head and neck are prone to the same factors as the ones in the legs and so if there is disease in one place you would be foolish to assume there is none in the others. Obviously (again, if it is true that you have PVD), then you are responding to other factors then the traditional ones. BTW - if you do have PVD then your LDL cholesterol should be less than 100 and possibly less then 70 - not under the 130 that we call normal for everyone else. >> Many of the things that can be done to >>reduce the risks would also help with your symptoms. Seeing a doctor might >>do far more for you than just make your legs feel better. > > I see the PCP regularly. Not the point. You lasts rounds of posts raises several questions for me. 1) Do you really have peripheral vascular disease and, if so, how do you know? 2) Do your really have COPD (again, how do you know)? 3) If you do have COPD but never smoked then do you know why you have it? If you do see your PCP then I have to think that the reason you don't want medical supervision is that you don't qualify; which means that your oxygen levels are fairly normal; which means that this whole thing is a fool's errand. Signature00doc >> Hmmm. Except that athletes cheat using O2, >1) That's not considered cheating - they do it openly (not that it really >matters for this discussion). >2) When you look on the sidelines of a pro game maybe one or two are sucking >oxygen. It provides them with a subjective and probably completely [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >the sidelines had an oxygen mask on his face. What does the fact that they >don't do this tell you? >> people at high altitudes >> relieve their breathlessness by using O2, >At high altitude all of the gasses are at lower concentrations (called >partial pressures) and so the oxygen saturation of the hemoglobin is lower >than at sea level. Giving oxygen in this case works because it increases the >oxygen saturation. >> people use O2 to relieve >> headaches (those that seem to be related to a stuffy environment), >Yes, they do but that is a completely diferent issue. It is not that >headaches are caused by low oxygen levels and the oxygen is fixing them. The [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >proposed use since blood vessel constriction ( if you believe the theory) >would not be a good thing for you. >> people use O2 in bars to get somewhat of a high,... >They obviously think they feel better. I suspect it is largely placebo. >Besides, a few people thinking they get high does not really support you >taking it for a completely different reason. >> I'd like to hear >> from someone who has done what I intend or I'll follow through with my >> plans. >That is your perogative. I'm not your nanny. I'm just trying to correct your >(many) misperceptions. Ya know I keep hearing the word "placebo" frequently with regard to O2. In the COPD texts they even say that delivery of O2 in an "on demand" basis is just a placebo and the palliative effect is caused by the gas rushing over the face. They recommend something like (I don't remember exactly) 18 hours per day using a cannula. You and they might all be right but at this point I don't believe you. I've had other experiences unrelated to COPD or PVD with their exalted highnesses saying "placebo effect" and found that for me it was no placebo. It worked. Don't you have patients taking drugs where one says "Did nothing for me" and the other says "It's a wonder drug"? Everyone's different. In summary: lack of O2 seems to be the problem. Many people use O2 to relieve the symptoms of breathlessness (I've mentioned some above; add in smoke inhalation victims). They can't all be wrong. >>> Furthermore there are treatments >>>for both COPD and peripheral vascular disease that include oxygen, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> I've read the latest texts and even the pontifications of the WHO. >> None are too impressive. >I think you will find they compare favorably to 5 minutes of home rigged >oxygen. I'm not trying to cure COPD or PVD or even palliate the diseases on a long-term basis. I just want 5 minutes of massive exertion without breathlessness or ischemic pain. >>>Lastly, your lung and vascular disease suggest that you are probably at >>>high >>>risk for heart disease and strokes. >> BP = 120/75, lipids within normal range, that new test whose name >> escapes me at the moment shows normal risk for both cardiac and >> vascular events, not overweight, not diabetic (or even close on the >> latter two). I don't think so. >If you really have perpheral vascular disease then you are at high risk even >if you do not have other risk factors. The blood vessels in the heart and >head and neck are prone to the same factors as the ones in the legs and so >if there is disease in one place you would be foolish to assume there is >none in the others. Obviously (again, if it is true that you have PVD), then >you are responding to other factors then the traditional ones. >BTW - if you do have PVD then your LDL cholesterol should be less than 100 >and possibly less then 70 - not under the 130 that we call normal for >everyone else. You probably believe in the metabolic syndrome and want to reduce PSA to 2.5 too. BTW if PVD = artherosclerosis then we all have it. >>> Many of the things that can be done to >>>reduce the risks would also help with your symptoms. Seeing a doctor might >>>do far more for you than just make your legs feel better. >> I see the PCP regularly. Not the point. >You lasts rounds of posts raises several questions for me. >1) Do you really have peripheral vascular disease and, if so, how do you >know? Right leg gets cramp-like pain during that 5 minutes of high exertion I referred to earlier. Also endocrinologist says so based on stethoscopic examination of my lower legs and recommends Doppler. PCP says BS and that you can't evaluate PVD with a stethoscope. He says PVD unlikely. I hear Doppler hurts and since I'm not going to do anything about it regardless of the result, I'm not pushing. >2) Do your really have COPD (again, how do you know)? Radiologist says so based on chest X-ray even though WHO initiative on COPD says X-ray isn't appropriate for diagnosis. They say spirometry necessary. PCP in this case agrees with radiologist but initially diagnosed asthma. Now prescribes Spiriva and Maxair. Spiriva is anticholinergic and makes urinary urge disappear altogether (I've actually gone a day without peeing) and since I also have mild BPH (remote risk of AUR) and since Spiriva doesn't do anything useful in terms of breathing I've abandoned it. Maxair "might, perhaps, with a lot of bending over backwards" help. I take a couple of puffs a week. The thing that does help is sneezing. Naturally I go on sneezing jags--you don't want to be in the same room when it's going on--but there's no medication to cause sneezing. (Medication that has a side effect of killing the body's heat control mechanism works but has other nasty side effects.) The pharmacist (useless bunch) suggested snuff and while that works for a little while eventually your body gets used to the irritation. >3) If you do have COPD but never smoked then do you know why you have it? What makes you think I've never smoked? Two, sometimes three packs a day since the age of 16. Less than one these days. Don't preach! If you want to do something useful agitate for nicotine in an inhaler. >If you do see your PCP then I have to think that the reason you don't want >medical supervision is that you don't qualify; which means that your oxygen >levels are fairly normal; They'd have to measure blood gasses to determine that and I presume it means blood gasses over a period of time. I haven't investigated. > which means that this whole thing is a fool's >errand. Let's hear that from someone who's been there and has an open mind on the subject. Or maybe I'll come back and tell you what happened. > Ya know I keep hearing the word "placebo" frequently with regard to > O2. In the COPD texts they even say that delivery of O2 in an "on [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > experiences unrelated to COPD or PVD with their exalted highnesses > saying "placebo effect" and found that for me it was no placebo. How do you know it was not the placebo effect? > In summary: lack of O2 seems to be the problem. Why do you say that? You admit it hasn;t been mentioned. It could also be comming from a spine problem (look up spinal stenosis). > ? Many people use O2 to > relieve the symptoms of breathlessness (I've mentioned some above; add > in smoke inhalation victims). They can't all be wrong. No, not many people without well defined reasons. Smoke inhalation victims really do have low oxygen levels that are being treated by the oxygen. >>> I've read the latest texts and even the pontifications of the WHO. >>> None are too impressive. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > long-term basis. I just want 5 minutes of massive exertion without > breathlessness or ischemic pain. I don't think your proposed treatment is going to give it to you. If you do have claudication based on PVD then the problem is the amount of blood getting to the leg - not the amount of oxygen in the blood (unless that happens to be low as well). >>BTW - if you do have PVD then your LDL cholesterol should be less than 100 >>and possibly less then 70 - not under the 130 that we call normal for [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > BTW if PVD = artherosclerosis then we all have it. No, not at all. Clincal PVD is well defined. >>1) Do you really have peripheral vascular disease and, if so, how do you >>know? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > PVD unlikely. I hear Doppler hurts and since I'm not going to do > anything about it regardless of the result, I'm not pushing. 1) Your PCP is right. You may be able to hear a bruit with the stethoscope that suggests PVD is mor elikely but it cannot diagnose it. 2) A doppler is an ultrasound probe. They put a little jelly over the arteries and that is about it. It is quick and painless. >>2) Do your really have COPD (again, how do you know)? > > Radiologist says so based on chest X-ray even though WHO initiative on > COPD says X-ray isn't appropriate for diagnosis. They say spirometry > necessary. PCP in this case agrees with radiologist but initially > diagnosed asthma. With your smoking history you probably do have it but it can't be diagnosed by X-ray. The X-ray can be very suggestive and raise the oddis significantly. >>If you do see your PCP then I have to think that the reason you don't want >>medical supervision is that you don't qualify; which means that your [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > They'd have to measure blood gasses to determine that and I presume it > means blood gasses over a period of time. I haven't investigated. To measure CO2 and see if you are a retainer they would need to do blood gases. The oxygen levels can be measured with a probe that clips onto the finger and is painless. Your PCP may even have one (most do). Signature00doc >> In summary: lack of O2 seems to be the problem. >Why do you say that? You admit it hasn;t been mentioned. It could also be >comming from a spine problem (look up spinal stenosis). You cut out too much here. O2 has been mentioned all the time; it's even the subject of this posting. <sigh> Again: the cells need oxygen to survive. The lungs (effectively) dissolve oxygen in the blood. The blood gives up its oxygen to the cells. No oxygen in the cells: the cells cry out in pain. Solution: get the blood to take up more oxygen. The lungs have to sort out the O2 from the other gasses in the air. Make their job easier by just giving them pure oxygen. Less work for them. I'll check into your suggestion. >> Right leg gets cramp-like pain during that 5 minutes of high exertion >> I referred to earlier. Also endocrinologist says so based on >> stethoscopic examination of my lower legs and recommends Doppler. PCP >> says BS and that you can't evaluate PVD with a stethoscope. He says >> PVD unlikely. I hear Doppler hurts and since I'm not going to do >> anything about it regardless of the result, I'm not pushing. >1) Your PCP is right. You may be able to hear a bruit with the stethoscope >that suggests PVD is mor elikely but it cannot diagnose it. >2) A doppler is an ultrasound probe. They put a little jelly over the >arteries and that is about it. It is quick and painless. Don't they have to inject an opaque dye into the arteries? That's, I believe, the part that hurts. >To measure CO2 and see if you are a retainer they would need to do blood >gases. The oxygen levels can be measured with a probe that clips onto the >finger and is painless. Your PCP may even have one (most do). Just for the hell of it, I'll ask him to measure my O2 level next time I see him. Of course that would be O2 in the finger (don't see how that would work without breaking the skin and taking blood) and only while I'm sitting there in the office, not at the time of maximum exertion. Oh yeah, I seem to remember talking with him about measuring blood gasses a few years back. I abandoned the idea when I found out that it requires a stay in hospital and all sorts of nasty hooking up your arteries and pumping your blood out and in over a period of time. Something like that. Besides it's only background information; no clinical significance. Cheaper and easier to try my idea. You know, throughout this entire exchange, you haven't suggested any other method of dealing with my problem. And BTW that wasn't what I asked anyway which was a website (or similar) of someone who's tried what I'm proposing. I suppose the answer is that no one knows. >>> In summary: lack of O2 seems to be the problem. >>Why do you say that? You admit it hasn;t been mentioned. It could also be >>comming from a spine problem (look up spinal stenosis). >You cut out too much here. O2 has been mentioned all the time; it's >even the subject of this posting. <sigh> Again: the cells need oxygen [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Make their job easier by just giving them pure oxygen. Less work for >them. >I'll check into your suggestion. I did. http://www.spinalstenosis.org/symptoms.php You must be joking! I have no dull or severe aching pain in the buttocks. No numbness, weakness, or parasthesias involving the lower extremities. Symptoms are not relieved by bending forward, lying or sitting down. I don't know if pain relievers are effective. I suppose if I don't do any physical exertion I'll have increased endurance. My old dentist had this. I'm nothing like him. I have cramp-like pain in my right calf which is sometimes triggered by one sort of massive physical exertion. It doesn't happen all the time, in fact not even most of the time, and like all cramps it goes away with time and hobbling around trying to get the muscle to relax. Let me not try and discourage your wild ideas <g> but I'm actually interested in pain that doesn't occur but would otherwise. The brain (or CNS) stops my physical activity due to the anticipation of the pain that would be incurred. I have to teach it (the brain) that it's not going to be painful. In my view the best way to do that is to make sure it's really not painful. I.e., no cramp occurs. I'm not going further along this line of questioning. BTW are you the reformed pediatrician who now teaches high school? >>>> In summary: lack of O2 seems to be the problem. > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > You must be joking! I have no dull or severe aching pain in the > buttocks. It often is just cramping in the calf. > No numbness, weakness, or parasthesias involving the lower > extremities. They are often absent. > Symptoms are not relieved by bending forward, lying or > sitting down. That does argue strongly against. > I don't know if pain relievers are effective. You could give them a try. > I suppose > if I don't do any physical exertion I'll have increased endurance. That would work for either PVD or spinal stenosis but would not be my favorite option. > My old dentist had this. I'm nothing like him. It can happen in younger healthier people if it is from disc disease plus or minus congential narrowing of the spinal canal. > I have cramp-like pain in my right calf which is sometimes triggered > by one sort of massive physical exertion. It doesn't happen all the > time, in fact not even most of the time, and like all cramps it goes > away with time and hobbling around trying to get the muscle to relax. That doesn't sound exactly like PVD either. > Let me not try and discourage your wild ideas <g> but I'm actually > interested in pain that doesn't occur but would otherwise. The brain [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > sure it's really not painful. I.e., no cramp occurs. I'm not going > further along this line of questioning. If it is PVD then the best thing for you might be exercise training. Really, though, it sounds mostly like a plain old cramp. My strongest advice would be to have the ABI doppler test done and find out for sure before persuing any of your wild ideas <G>. > BTW are you the reformed pediatrician who now teaches high school? No, his name is Jeff Utz and he is a completely different person. I know him from some other groups but I'm not sure he has ever been a regular poster here. If so it has been a long time. I'm double board certified in Internal Medicine and Pediatrics and am still in full time clinical practice. Signature00doc >>> In summary: lack of O2 seems to be the problem. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > You cut out too much here. O2 has been mentioned all the time; it's > even the subject of this posting. <sigh> It was a mistype. The word I meant to type was "measured". >>> Right leg gets cramp-like pain during that 5 minutes of high exertion >>> I referred to earlier. Also endocrinologist says so based on [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Don't they have to inject an opaque dye into the arteries? That's, I > believe, the part that hurts. You are thinking of an angiogram. That is the test they would need to do to define exactly what is blocked and where to plan an intervention. That test does involve needles into the top of the thigh. The local anesthetic burns and is probably the bulk of the pain. It certainly isn't painless but I haven't had people complain that it is excrutiating either. The part that hurts is the insertion of the needles. Once they are in the injection of the dye it painless. The doppler test (ankle brachial index = ABI) used to diagnose peripheral vascular disease involves putting a dap of jelly over the arteries at the elbow and foot and then using an ultrasound probe to deterine the ratio if systolic (the top number) blood pressures. In normal people the blood pressure pulse actually gets taller and narrower due to comression by elasticity of the arteries and so a normal ratio is 1.1 (the ankle is a little higher than the arm). A ratio of less than 0.9 suggests disease. They often will also do it at the back of the knee to help determine where the blockage is. The doppler would be worthwile, I think. If it is positive then you would know the diagnosis for sure (I understand that you already think you do) and could persue whatever treatment for it that you think might work. If it is normal then maybe it will get you to explore other diagnoses. Maybe all you need is a good chiropractor. >>To measure CO2 and see if you are a retainer they would need to do blood >>gases. The oxygen levels can be measured with a probe that clips onto the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > while I'm sitting there in the office, not at the time of maximum > exertion. It could be done on the toe and it could be done after exertion. The machine is called a pulse oxymeter. It emits a red light and an ultraviolet light and measures the absorption of both. Oxygenated blood absorbs the light differently than deoxygenated blood. > Oh yeah, I seem to remember talking with him about measuring blood > gasses a few years back. I abandoned the idea when I found out that it > requires a stay in hospital and all sorts of nasty hooking up your > arteries and pumping your blood out and in over a period of time. > Something like that. Besides it's only background information; no > clinical significance. Cheaper and easier to try my idea. No. Measuring blood gasses needs to be done close to the lab so the sample can be analysed within minutes - which usually means at the hospital. However, it is just one needle stick. They do have to go into an artery, generally at the wrist, so it does hurt more than a regular venupuncture. The whole thing requires one needle stick (of a normal size needle) and takes about 10 minutes. You would not stay at the hospital just for this. As an outpatient it is often done in the pulmonary function lab along with pulmonary function testing (which could tell you definitively if you have COPD and how bad it is as well as how well the lungs are exchanging gasses and if there is a measurable response to bronchodilators). > You know, throughout this entire exchange, you haven't suggested any > other method of dealing with my problem. And BTW that wasn't what I > asked anyway which was a website (or similar) of someone who's tried > what I'm proposing. I suppose the answer is that no one knows. I think I have- several, in fact. Unfortunately, the answers I am suggesting are ones you aren't willing to consider. I don't know off hand the answer to your specific question, how to jury rig a welder's O2 tank to allow you to breath off of it, but could probably take several good guesses of things that might work. However, since I think it would be a waste at best and potentialy dangerous at worst I'm not inclined to do that. I told you early on that my goal in responding has been to clarify some misperceptions. I'm sure you will say that is nannying of me but that's OK - I can live with that. I'd rather be accused of nannying than giving bad advice. Signature00doc Snipped lots of useful information. Thanks. You must be sitting at your PC all the time. >> You know, throughout this entire exchange, you haven't suggested any >> other method of dealing with my problem. And BTW that wasn't what I >> asked anyway which was a website (or similar) of someone who's tried >> what I'm proposing. I suppose the answer is that no one knows. >I think I have- several, in fact. Unfortunately, the answers I am >suggesting are ones you aren't willing to consider. Where? I'm sorry but Doppler, exercise training, confirmation of diagnosis etc aren't solutions. Solutions to COPD involve simply temporary mitigation of symptoms (e.g. broncodilators and continuous oxygen). Others of a more permanent nature are lung reduction and lung transplant, and maybe they're working on some stem cell solution. I don't need more diagnostic tests to know that broncodilators are of marginal use. I'm not going to wander around with cannula up my nose so that's out. Anyway according to the texts it doesn't restore function sufficiently. Lung reduction and transplants are last gasp (heh, heh) solutions. I think your idea of death by O2 use would be preferable. Exercise training is not going to restore function sufficiently and anyway is like giving up eating saturated fat: worse than the disease. A valid solution suggestion would be: "There's this super-dooper drug called X. Take two and you'll function like a teenager for the next 1/2 hour." There are drugs like this (mostly illegal or highly restricted) for other problems but I don't know of any in the COPD area. Of course, in the PVD area there are things to raise BP or pulse rate which would probably work temporarily but could have nasty and dangerous side effects. I'm sure you wouldn't suggest them. BTW my massive exertion I'm trying to deal with causes hypoxia in normal people although it's minor in teenagers. It's actually described in the texts as causing or concurrent with hypoxia and some think it may be a necessary part. I.e., you have to have hypoxia. I'm not sure about that but anyway I think I have more than necessary. There are other potential solutions not involving lungs or PVD; what we've been discussing is merely part of a larger effort. Trying the easier things first. Thanks for the help. > Snipped lots of useful information. Thanks. You must be sitting at > your PC all the time. Apparently you are new to online forums. It is the accepted convention to remove sections to which you are not directly responding. > BTW my massive exertion I'm trying to deal with causes hypoxia in > normal people although it's minor in teenagers. It's actually > described in the texts as causing or concurrent with hypoxia and some > think it may be a necessary part. Huh. I would have thought that would affect your forearm rather than your calf. Maybe one of us is doing it wrong. Signature00doc >> Snipped lots of useful information. Thanks. You must be sitting at >> your PC all the time. >Apparently you are new to online forums. It is the accepted convention to >remove sections to which you are not directly responding. That was a compliment not a complaint. I'm indicating that the items I snipped were good and appreciated. I didn't snip them because I thought they were junk. OTOH I think YOU must be new not to know that this is a newsgroup not a forum: forums are web based and usually moderated. As to my newness my first posting was in 1996 to a local group for Pipeline. In newsgroup terms I'm a senior citizen. >> BTW my massive exertion I'm trying to deal with causes hypoxia in >> normal people although it's minor in teenagers. It's actually >> described in the texts as causing or concurrent with hypoxia and some >> think it may be a necessary part. >Huh. I would have thought that would affect your forearm rather than your >calf. Maybe one of us is doing it wrong. Depends on one's approach. Some of us like to involve others <g>. <<BTW my massive exertion I'm trying to deal with causes hypoxia in normal people although it's minor in teenagers. << Gasping, are you a teenager, or are you just stating something here? ><<BTW my massive exertion I'm trying to deal with causes hypoxia in >normal people although it's minor in teenagers. << >Gasping, are you a teenager, or are you just stating something here? I'm in my mid-60's but I'd certainly like to be a teenager. As Oscar Wilde said: "Youth is wasted on the young". On reflection, maybe late twenties would be better. And yes, I'm stating what I believe to be the truth. It was for me. 00doc has the right idea but this is a family group, I suppose, so I have to be a little discrete. Got it. Thanks for your reply. |
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