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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Asthma / October 2003

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Inhaled Steroid least likely to cause thrush?

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Nick - 09 Oct 2003 02:39 GMT
Hi all,
Long time mild asthmatic here. 4 months ago became a moderate after a
bout with bronchitis. Advair caused thrush despite rinsing diligently.
Doc says I'm just susceptible to it. Tried Singulair, but it does not
help my asthma at all. I'm going back again soon to try something
else, hopefully.

Anyone with prior thrush problems found a cortecosteroid that has not
caused thrush? Another Pulm. Doc suggested I talk to my Doc about
Azmacort.

Thanks in advance.

-Wheezing.
Debi - 09 Oct 2003 12:34 GMT
>dvair caused thrush despite rinsing diligently.
> Doc says I'm just susceptible to it.

     My pulmonologist suggested Pulmicort. I have the same problem with
Thrush. I'm also taking acidophilous and that seems to help a lot.
Debi

Debi
 "Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most!"
thebigmacs - 09 Oct 2003 14:25 GMT
You may want to look into QVAR. It actually has 0 incidence of thrush in
clinical trials. FYI, It is Beclomethasone Dipropionate.

> Hi all,
> Long time mild asthmatic here. 4 months ago became a moderate after a
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> -Wheezing.
CBI - 09 Oct 2003 16:51 GMT
> Anyone with prior thrush problems found a cortecosteroid that has not
> caused thrush? Another Pulm. Doc suggested I talk to my Doc about
> Azmacort.

Usually the older, less potent, steroids cause less thrush.
Unfortunately, the reason we use the more potent ones is that they
tend to require a lower dose and so have less systemic effect.

You might do better with Q-var which is a newer formulation of
beclemethasone (an older pess potent steroid) that has been rendered
more effective via particle size rather than potency and so retains
many of the benefits of the newer steroids. Otherwise you could try
something like Azmacort which I consider a lot less likely to cause
thrush but is well established to have measurable systemic effects at
moderate to high doses.

Another approach would be to take a mycelex troche (or some similar
product) periodically, either after every use or once a day or even
less if you find that it works.

--
CBI, MD
None Required - 11 Oct 2003 04:48 GMT
I'm jumping in a bit late so this may have been discussed (cleaned out past
files).

You absolutely should be using a Valved holding chamber. This alone can
decrease oral impaction by 80%. Then you need to rinse,  gargle, and spit
IMMEDIATELY after use. Use mouthwash if plain water seems to not work.

Signature

FM
Respiratory Care Practitioner
Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America-WA Branch

>> Anyone with prior thrush problems found a cortecosteroid that has not
>> caused thrush? Another Pulm. Doc suggested I talk to my Doc about
>> Azmacort.
jackmallory@webtv.net - 11 Oct 2003 14:42 GMT
Salt water better than plain for gargle and rinse.

I use Pulmicort, but I'm only mildly susceptible to thrush so can't give
you first hand advice beyond the above.  

Am able to relay the following  though:  live yogurt, that is, organic
unfrozen yogurt full of "good" fungus to overpower the bad.  Sounds
logical but may be rubbish of course.
Pauline O'Connell - 11 Oct 2003 17:22 GMT
If you are susceptible to getting thrush, how long does it take to show up?
What are the symptoms?

Thanks
Pauline
> Salt water better than plain for gargle and rinse.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> unfrozen yogurt full of "good" fungus to overpower the bad.  Sounds
> logical but may be rubbish of course.
nick - 28 Oct 2003 07:55 GMT
Hi Pauline, do you suspect it might not be thrush?

> If you are susceptible to getting thrush, how long does it take to show up?
> What are the symptoms?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> > unfrozen yogurt full of "good" fungus to overpower the bad.  Sounds
> > logical but may be rubbish of course.
Pauline O'Connell - 30 Oct 2003 08:48 GMT
Honestly, I have no clue what thrush even is - nor do I have any symptoms, I
was just wondering if a person is inclined to get thrush, how long after you
start using a steroid inhaler does it take before it shows up.  What are the
symptoms?

Pauline
> Hi Pauline, do you suspect it might not be thrush?
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> > > unfrozen yogurt full of "good" fungus to overpower the bad.  Sounds
> > > logical but may be rubbish of course.
Tim Hunter - 13 Oct 2003 04:50 GMT
> You absolutely should be using a Valved holding chamber. This alone can
> decrease oral impaction by 80%. Then you need to rinse,  gargle, and spit
> IMMEDIATELY after use. Use mouthwash if plain water seems to not work.

Brush your teeth and tongue completely and rinse after taking your steriod
inhaler. I have not had a problem with Advair 500/50.

Your pulmonary doctor and dentist will be happy. (BTW make your dentist even
happier and floss also :-) )

Tim
Debi - 14 Oct 2003 12:29 GMT
>> You absolutely should be using a Valved holding chamber. This alone can
>> decrease oral impaction by 80%.

   Is there something like this that would work with Advair or Pulmicort?

Debi
 "Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most!"
None Required - 14 Oct 2003 15:17 GMT
No. DPI's are dependant on inhalation velocity. They should have a very
strong (not violent), prolonged inhalation. MDI's should be a slow, easy,
prolonged inhalation. Switching back and forth can mix people up. A slow
inhalation on a DPI will cause a lot of oral impaction. The same advice
about immediate gargling and rinsing applies though.

Signature

FM
Respiratory Care Practitioner
Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America-WA Branch

>     Is there something like this that would work with Advair or
> Pulmicort?
Richard Friedel - 14 Oct 2003 16:44 GMT
> No. DPI's are dependant on inhalation velocity. They should have a very
> strong (not violent), prolonged inhalation. MDI's should be a slow, easy,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> >     Is there something like this that would work with Advair or
> > Pulmicort?

As I pointed out to you before, you should surely do something more than
plugging asthma drugs. You are a foundation with the accompanying
inference of a duty of doing something more for the public interest than
a company or firm.

For anybody wishing to try non-drug options for asthma, I can only
recommend doing a Google search with the words

inspiratory training

to see details of SIMT devices for asthma and for athletics offered by
various different outfits.  Their use is shown to be effective in
studies.  According to one maker only about five minutes exercise daily
is needed to get a substantial effect.

Furthermore, standard asthma exercises like pursed lips breathing can be
shown to improve blood oxygen saturation. See also articles of Dr. Deane
Hillsman MD of UCLA on non-drug strategies and tactics.

Submitted by Richard Friedel
WBowman497 - 16 Oct 2003 13:40 GMT
>Subject: Re: Inhaled Steroid least likely to cause thrush?
>From: Richard Friedel s3e0101@mailin.lrz-muenchen.de
>Date: 10/14/03 11:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time

> Their use is shown to be effective in
>studies.

I use one called the breather aand does help.
None Required - 16 Oct 2003 16:48 GMT
I'm not promoting drugs. I'm answering the question. Lots of studies have
shown MOST people use inhaled medications wrong. This includes most medical
personel. If you can't do it right, you can't teach it right.

> As I pointed out to you before, you should surely do something more
> than plugging asthma drugs. You are a foundation with the accompanying
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> inspiratory training

Inspiratory training for asthmatics is probably of little value. The airways
are bad, not the muscles that run the pump. Relaxation training would be a
better bet. Since _both_ are dependant on constant practice the difficulty
in getting people to maintain trainging in either one is significant.

> to see details of SIMT devices for asthma and for athletics offered by
> various different outfits.  Their use is shown to be effective in
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> be shown to improve blood oxygen saturation. See also articles of Dr.
> Deane Hillsman MD of UCLA on non-drug strategies and tactics.

Sure, easily demonstrateable. But pursed lip breathing is expiratory
restriction. An asthmatic having an attack is having both inspiratory and
expiratory restriction already. Oxygen levels don't fall until actual
respiration is compromised. Probably the best value for that kind of
breathing for an asthmatic is it _may_ get them to sit down, possibly relax,
and pay attention to a poor breathing pattern. If they are having a bad
attack they need medication and the knowledge on how to do it right.

BTW, pursed lip breathing is mostly beneficial for COPD. It's real hard to
keep it up. Try sometime.

Lastly, any asthmatic should know their triggers and pay some attention to
avoiding them. This practice I find in real life is kind of lacking. Not too
many people make take the time and effort to make real life style changes.
Sad but true. We are all too often typically lazy and want a pill or
injection to make it better. So do I but I haven't found any that work
without problems. Hard work still seems to be the best option.

The organization I (mostly) volunteer for is primarily in the arena of grass
roots eduction. We are currently involved with a Centers for Disease Control
grant to teach 7-12 year olds and their parents how to manage their asthma
(ACT Program). This is a 3 evening/6 hour class. Medication instruction is
only a part of it. Check out details at www.aafawa.org

Signature

FM
Respiratory Care Practitioner
Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America-WA Branch

gumbo - 17 Oct 2003 09:57 GMT
> Lots of studies have
> shown MOST people use inhaled medications wrong. This includes most medical
> personel. If you can't do it right, you can't teach it right.

Please can you provide some guidance on the correct inhalation technique
for MDI plus spacer?  Thanks.

-- gumbo
Richard Friedel - 17 Oct 2003 12:16 GMT
If I may say so, you seem to have touched upon a very important issue by
saying that pursed lips breathing is difficult to keep up. I've seen
enough photos of asthmatics sitting in disused mines (where the air is
supposed to be so healthy) in deck chairs and doing PLB for hours on
end.  Then there are photos of some extremely healthy-looking professor
of respiratory medicine doing a demonstration.  Nowhere does the extreme
effort needed to curb an actual attack come over.

For a better description of PLB see
http://www.perf2ndwind.org/html/breathing.html:

"....Your problem now is working on getting
air out of your lungs. You now need to breathe out 2 or 3 times longer
than you breathe in. If you panic and breathe too fast, or breathe in
and out at the same rate, you will cause more air trapping and get more
short of breath. In our studies, patients who did good pursed lip
breathing (PLB) slowed down to about 10 breaths a minute at rest."

(According to Dr. Celli
(http://www.postgradmed.com/issues/1998/04_98/celli.htm) the actual
effect of PLB is not because of back pressure to keep the airways open,
but is due to some other effect. A reflex?)

Professor D. Hillsman writes
(http://www.ohiou.edu/isarp/conf_02/papr_4.htm) on prolonging the exhale
for COPD but also with some emphasis on asthma:

"The commonest and usually best deflation strategy is a non-forced, or
minimally forced, prolongation of the expiratory time by approximately
25%. This will minimize the problem of Dynamic Bronchial Compression
(DBC) as discussed below.

Repeated over several breaths all Dynamic Hyperinflation should be
corrected, and the patient comfortable within 10 or so breaths."

And "Patients should be thoroughly instructed in recognizing and
avoiding the Rescue Breathing Pattern which is a common psychological
based reason for acute dyspnea attacks. Anxiety is a common trigger for
hyperventilation, and anxiety based on the dyspnea sensation is a
particularly powerful emotional stimulus to induce hyperventilation. In
the COPD patient this can trigger Dynamic Hyperinflation.

Typically a COPD patient will experience mild exertion dyspnea, become
anxious, hyperventilate, and promptly convert a mild dyspnea situation
into a severe dyspnea attack."

This on the one hand says precisely what is to be done and also avoids
any tactless use of the word panic.

Another breathing technique which is poorly explained is diaphragmatic
breathing, see Hillsman's objections to merely "belly puffing"

It seems that to be done correctly diaphragmatic breathing should give
the feeling that the diaphragm is directly wired to the feeling of
suction in the nose and closed mouth.  The tongue is laid against the
front teeth and there is sensation of air flowing through the nose and
probably operating a reflex to open the lung airways (nasopulmonary
reflex). Correct diaphragmatic breathing should give rise to a yummy
feeling the lower abdomen

In conclusion I do reckon that this sort of diversification could make
asthma advice much more effective.  If folks remain in good contact with
their docs, the defusing effect (reduction in fear) should not impair
safety.

A last point would be that if breathing exercises - like f. i. 4 secs.
inhale, 3 secs. hold and then 6 secs. exhale - are done before going to
bed at night, the rhythm may maintained all night and this may serve to
avoid asthmatic hyperventilation. You may sleep sweetly with less
asthmatic episodes.  Richard Friedel

> I'm not promoting drugs. I'm answering the question. Lots of studies have
> shown MOST people use inhaled medications wrong. This includes most medical
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
> Respiratory Care Practitioner
> Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America-WA Branch
Debi - 14 Oct 2003 18:00 GMT
 Thanks for explaining this!

>No. DPI's are dependant on inhalation velocity. They should have a very
>strong (not violent), prolonged inhalation. MDI's should be a slow, easy,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>     Is there something like this that would work with Advair or
>> Pulmicort?

Debi
 "Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most!"
gumbo - 17 Oct 2003 09:54 GMT
> Usually the older, less potent, steroids cause less thrush.
> Unfortunately, the reason we use the more potent ones is that they
> tend to require a lower dose and so have less systemic effect.
>
> --
> CBI, MD

Excuse my ignorance, but why would a lower dose of a more potent drug have
any less systemic effect?

-- gumbo
CBI - 17 Oct 2003 17:05 GMT
> > Usually the older, less potent, steroids cause less thrush.
> > Unfortunately, the reason we use the more potent ones is that they
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Excuse my ignorance, but why would a lower dose of a more potent drug have
> any less systemic effect?

In some cases, such as Flovent, it is  matter of absorption. There is
physically less drug in the lungs and so less spillage into the blood.

In the case of Pulmicort quite a bit is absorbed but it is quickly
metabolised by the liver (more so than other steroids) so there is not
much effect.

Signature

CBI, MD

WBowman497 - 20 Oct 2003 12:46 GMT
>Subject: Re: Inhaled Steroid least likely to cause thrush?
>From: 00doc@mindspring.com  (CBI)
>Date: 10/17/03 12:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time

>In some cases, such as Flovent, it is  matter of absorption. There is
>physically less drug in the lungs and so less spillage into the blood.
>
>In the case of Pulmicort quite a bit is absorbed but it is quickly
>metabolised by the liver (more so than other steroids) so there is not
>much effect.

Good information to know. Thanks
 
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