Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Asthma / September 2005
EIA, medication and effect on heartrate
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Per Elmsäter - 23 Sep 2005 18:12 GMT Last year I was diagnosed as having EIA Exercise Induced Asthma. It was quite a relief to find out why I was the only one almost suffocating after hard sprints on our club bicycle rides. I'd always wondered how the other riders could talk to each other going uphill etc. All of a sudden when I started medicating all of this changed. I didn't feel like suffocating, my windpipes were quiet, I could continue a conversation with the rider next to me when we climbed a hill etc. Life was wonderful. My medication is an inhaler called Bricanyl ( Terbutaline ) http://www.astrazeneca.com/productbrowse/6_90.aspx
GOTO SUMMARY if you can't handle detailed description ;) I didn't notice any side effects at all except that the very first time I took it my HR ( heart rate ) went up to more than 95% of HRmax on a training ride that wasn't real intense. It felt OK so I didn't think much about it. The next ride my HR was back to normal. Ie expected bpm. However as the season progressed I started riding more and more and also taking my inhaler more and more. Maybe 5-8 rides a week. About midseason I noticed my HR never could make it above 80% of HRmax. That was annoying especially in places where I needed to go all out and usually would have a HR of very close to HRmax. I quit taking my medication for exactly one week and soon my HR was back to normal, even when I medicated after exactly one week. I held off another week and then medicated again on a fast club ride. Dang there my HR went up to almost HRmax again ( where it wasn't expected to ) and I still didn't have any Power left for the sprint.
:SUMMARY So what I'm wondering is. Has anybody else experienced that their medication affects their Heart Rate? Would this be symptomatic of Terbutaline? If so what other kind of medications are there to consider. If there is anybody else out there with EIA I'd really appreciate hearing from you and how you handle the sports you are involved in.
One reason I'm asking here is that my Doctor doesn't seem very interested in helping me find a good solution to this. I always have the feeling that he thinks this is some kind of luxury problem. Like I'm probably three times as fit and healthy as most of his patients and I shouldn't even bother him. It might not be like that, but that's the impression I get. I hear many people almost dying have the same complaints ;-))
Thankful for any and all feedback
 Signature Perre
Merlin - 24 Sep 2005 03:45 GMT G'day Perre, you sound like you are realising that virtually any medication for these kinds of problems comes with hidden cost. If you consider that you have a sensitivity problem of some kind which is exacerbated by extremes of body behaviour including extremes of blood circulation and thermal skin sensitivity/dissipation then it may well be better to consider how that sensitivity might be reduced naturally, rather than masking the problem medically. Reducing the situation where the bloodflow is most extreme or reducing any possible causes of sensitisation needs more consideration. Do you have any idea if any substances are involved with your problem, if so what forms of avoidance might you have considered? In that you mention cycling when the problem occurs easiest, we are obviously discussing roads and possibly vehicle exhaust problems and those things associated with petroleum substances. Have you considered this kind of area? Do you have any inherent congestion retention? Do you feel any kind of dopiness when the problem occurs? Do you have other stress or extreme emotive kinds of problems? Do you find that you are excessively prone to viral kinds of things in comparison to others? I am not a medical person but do have an interest in how these things happen and often can suggest ideas to help address the problem. Cheers, Merlin.
Per Elmsäter - 24 Sep 2005 07:57 GMT > G'day Perre, you sound like you are realising that virtually any > medication for these kinds of problems comes with hidden cost. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > happen and often can suggest ideas to help address the problem. > Cheers, Merlin. I wish I could find an external reason for this, but so far nothing has clicked. Ever since I was young I've had these problems when exercising hard, I just didn't know it was EIA. People would just comment like. Wow you really are a fighter, or , Dang you really go all out. As for cycling. I live in Sweden, northern Europe which is probably one of the few places not *badly* polluted yet. Our bicycle rides are done on small rural roads with next to no traffic on them. At home just walking up the two flights of stairs to my apartment leaves me breathless for a couple of minutes. Enough so that I cannot talk. This doesn't make sense since I'm very fit. Like I'll place in the top 500 out of 17000 on a 300 km long bicycle race, with a time of 9 hours 20 minutes. When not exercising I seem to have no asthmatic problems. The only other respiratory problem I have is that I can seldom use my nostrils for breathing except when sitting absolutely still. As soon as I start even walking around the house I have to breath through my nose. In the wintertime I use a heat exchange mouth piece when exercising outside. That has helped me immensely and winter is no longer a torture. Like my lungs and windpipes would hurt for days after a mid winter training session before I found this mask. http://www.lungplus.se/ I of course have also medicated at the same time.
I've tried not medicating on my training rides lately, just during races. It kind of works but I cannot go all out on my training rides. Have to hold back or I'll screw up my windpipes again. This will eventually cause loss of form, which feels not so good, especially considering all that time I put into training.
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NorthShoreCEO - 24 Sep 2005 11:45 GMT > I wish I could find an external reason for this, but so far > nothing has [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > km long > bicycle race, with a time of 9 hours 20 minutes. You're confusing having a disease with being fit. Some of our greatest athletes in the U.S. have asthma.
> When not exercising I seem to have no asthmatic problems. The > only other > respiratory problem I have is that I can seldom use my nostrils > for > breathing except when sitting absolutely still. Why are you looking for an external reason for having exercise induced asthma, but not looking for a reason you can't breathe through your nostrils? That's not normal. If you can't breathe through your nostrils, something is wrong. Time to see a doctor and have xrays and cat scans to determine what's going on. This alone may be contributing to your problem.
As soon as I start even
> walking around the house I have to breath through my nose. I'm assuming you meant to type "....I have to breathe through my mouth", is that correct? Again, that's not normal.
> In the wintertime I use a heat exchange mouth piece when > exercising outside. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > time I put > into training. It's not safe to exercise without taking medication if you have any form of asthma. Bricanyl, something I remember taking a hundred years ago when I was younger and had asthma, may not be the best medication for you - but it sounds like your doctor isn't very compassionate or helpful, based on things you previously posted. I would either challenge his attitude or find a new doctor. And your should definitely pursue having your sinuses checked.
Per Elmsäter - 24 Sep 2005 18:00 GMT Since this post is getting a bit long now. I've pasted the very last lines up here. As I find them most important. However the rest of the post contains interspersed comments.
> find a new doctor. And your should definitely pursue having your > sinuses checked. Sinuses? How could they be involved in this? I do have Sinusitis every three or four years. Bad enough so I have to take penicillin. I feel my sinuses pretty constantly though.
>> I wish I could find an external reason for this, but so far >> nothing has [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > You're confusing having a disease with being fit. Some of our > greatest athletes in the U.S. have asthma. No I'm not confusing these two things, probably just a bit unclear. What I was trying to say was that at the level of fitness I'm at I shouldn't react this way going up two flights of stairs without having a disease. And the reason I said it was probably because I was trying to show that it had nothing to do with air pollution ;) As I see it.
>> When not exercising I seem to have no asthmatic problems. The >> only other [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > and have xrays and cat scans to determine what's going on. This > alone may be contributing to your problem. I've had surgery already where they straightened out my nostrils after a car crash many years ago. But still many years after I was starting to have respiratory problems when exercising heavily.
> As soon as I start even >> walking around the house I have to breath through my nose. > > I'm assuming you meant to type "....I have to breathe through my > mouth", is that correct? Again, that's not normal. Of course. Speed writing on my part. And the reason I wrote it is because I also don't think it's normal.
>> In the wintertime I use a heat exchange mouth piece when >> exercising outside. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > find a new doctor. And your should definitely pursue having your > sinuses checked. Sinuses? How could they be involved in this? I do have Sinusitis every three or four years. Bad enough so I have to take penicillin. I feel my sinuses pretty constantly though.
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00doc - 24 Sep 2005 19:42 GMT > Last year I was diagnosed as having EIA Exercise Induced Asthma. It was > quite a relief to find out why I was the only one almost suffocating after > hard sprints on our club bicycle rides. ..... Terbutaline (also known as Brethine in the US) is a beta agonist similar to albuterol (aka salmeterol in Europe). It is a derivative of epinephrine (aka adrenaline) that is supposed to stimulate the receptors in the lungs more than the receptors in the heart. As you are discovering there is some cross-reactivity and the drug can make the heart race. Different people have different sensitivities to this effect. So the direct answer to your question is that this is a common side effect of the drug. One possible solution would be to try just using one puff (I'm assuming you are using the usual dose of two).
While the heart racing is not unusual and easily explained I'm not sure why you would have the trouble with not being able to raise your heart rate later on. With constant exposure to beta agonists cells do downregulate the beta receptors and become less responsive to stimulation (called tachyphylaxis) but that usually takes much more than what you are taking. Again, maybe you are just particularly sensitive. If you stay on the medication and are having this it might be interesting to have an EKG done and make sure there is no element of heartblock but I'm clutching at straws there.
Other possible medication solutions would be to try salmeterol to see if you don't have a better time with it. You could also try a mast cell stabilizer (like Intal/cromolyn or Tilade/ nedocromil). These don't work as fast or as well as albuterol in preventing EIA and they are not dilators so they have no role in treating attacks and you will still want to carry a rescue inhaler like terbulatine or salmeterol for when you start to wheeze. They have fallen somewhat out of favor but used to be widely used for pretreatment in EIA and do have some effectiveness and should not affect your heart. You also might want to see if going on regular doses of an inhaled steroid (or nedocromil) might just take the whole thing away. Another dilator that is usually used more in emphysema but may help and shouldn't affect the heart so much is Atrovent (ipatropium).
Non-medical things to try include wearing the mask to warm the air as cold air is another similar trigger to EIA and does make it worse. Also having a brief warm-up, to the point of just starting to tighten, and then resting for about 30 minutes can put you in a refractory period where the EIA does not return.
As for the sinuses: There are several ways that they can be contributing.
Air that goes through the nose is warmed, moistened, and filtered and not as likely to trigger EIA as air through the mouth. I know that you will not be able to strictly nose breath during all out hills no matter how clear your nose is but the more you can breath through the nose the better.
An open nose just plain lets more air in.
Post nasal drip can irritate the larynx and make the airway more hyperresponsive. The nasal mucosa is similar to and continuous with the respiratory mucosa. Many people think that treating inflammation there (usually with an nasal steroid or an antihistamine - or anitbiotics in the case of an infection) helps with asthma.
 Signature 00doc
Per Elmsäter - 24 Sep 2005 20:50 GMT >> Last year I was diagnosed as having EIA Exercise Induced Asthma. It >> was quite a relief to find out why I was the only one almost >> suffocating after hard sprints on our club bicycle rides. ..... > > Snipped bunch of interesting info Thanks for your thorough reply 00 ;) You've given me lots of things to think about and some angles to pursue further.
Good to know that the abnormally high HR is a known side effect. My own personal theory is that the medication speeds up overtraining symptoms. The symptom of not being able to raise the heart rate is typical of overtraining and goes away with resting. This has happened but I've also lightened up on my medication. I don't think I was overtrained but my body started to act up like it was. At the moment I have gone down to one puff as you mentioned, still has my heart racing though. Also trying to only use it twice a week. However that leaves me with a lot of unmedicated riding and I will look into alternatives, including finding a new doctor. Yes a thorough warm-up is more or less a must for me, medicated or not.
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jackmallory@webtv.net - 25 Sep 2005 14:09 GMT What a good answer, 00doc for the fellow with EIA! (See below)
I wish we could all get such affable and comprehensive advice from our personal physicians.
Thank you.
<<< Re: EIA, medication and effect on heartrate Group: alt.support.asthma Date: Sat, Sep 24, 2005, 2:42pm From: 00doc@comcast.net (00doc) "Per Elmsäter" <perelms@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:EHWYe.34555$d5.189863@newsb.telia.net... Last year I was diagnosed as having EIA Exercise Induced Asthma. It was quite a relief to find out why I was the only one almost suffocating after hard sprints on our club bicycle rides. ..... Terbutaline (also known as Brethine in the US) is a beta agonist similar to albuterol (aka salmeterol in Europe). It is a derivative of epinephrine (aka adrenaline) that is supposed to stimulate the receptors in the lungs more than the receptors in the heart. As you are discovering there is some cross-reactivity and the drug can make the heart race. Different people have different sensitivities to this effect. So the direct answer to your question is that this is a common side effect of the drug. One possible solution would be to try just using one puff (I'm assuming you are using the usual dose of two). While the heart racing is not unusual and easily explained I'm not sure why you would have the trouble with not being able to raise your heart rate later on. With constant exposure to beta agonists cells do downregulate the beta receptors and become less responsive to stimulation (called tachyphylaxis) but that usually takes much more than what you are taking. Again, maybe you are just particularly sensitive. If you stay on the medication and are having this it might be interesting to have an EKG done and make sure there is no element of heartblock but I'm clutching at straws there. Other possible medication solutions would be to try salmeterol to see if you don't have a better time with it. You could also try a mast cell stabilizer (like Intal/cromolyn or Tilade/ nedocromil). These don't work as fast or as well as albuterol in preventing EIA and they are not dilators so they have no role in treating attacks and you will still want to carry a rescue inhaler like terbulatine or salmeterol for when you start to wheeze. They have fallen somewhat out of favor but used to be widely used for pretreatment in EIA and do have some effectiveness and should not affect your heart. You also might want to see if going on regular doses of an inhaled steroid (or nedocromil) might just take the whole thing away. Another dilator that is usually used more in emphysema but may help and shouldn't affect the heart so much is Atrovent (ipatropium). Non-medical things to try include wearing the mask to warm the air as cold air is another similar trigger to EIA and does make it worse. Also having a brief warm-up, to the point of just starting to tighten, and then resting for about 30 minutes can put you in a refractory period where the EIA does not return. As for the sinuses: There are several ways that they can be contributing. Air that goes through the nose is warmed, moistened, and filtered and not as likely to trigger EIA as air through the mouth. I know that you will not be able to strictly nose breath during all out hills no matter how clear your nose is but the more you can breath through the nose the better. An open nose just plain lets more air in. Post nasal drip can irritate the larynx and make the airway more hyperresponsive. The nasal mucosa is similar to and continuous with the respiratory mucosa. Many people think that treating inflammation there (usually with an nasal steroid or an antihistamine - or anitbiotics in the case of an infection) helps with asthma.
 Signature 00doc >>>
Richard Friedel - 25 Sep 2005 09:06 GMT Hi Perre,
For me a little asthma drug at a rate of about one can a year was a boon, but when the asthma got out of control I took on a very pessimistic attitude about the whole "asthma industry". I guess I was "in denial" about having the disorder, but in a sort of creative way.
An important point about asthma drugs is that they cause reflux (GERD) that in turn worsens asthma, so you're in a vicious circle and a sort of laboratory animal.
A further disturbing fact is the heavy reliance of docs on the worst case scenario and on the spectacular effects of some asthma drugs.
Then there is the usual explanation of breathing emphasizing the lungs and the muscles for inhalation. The story seems just trimmed to the needs of elementary schooling and is a neat, teacher-friendly (and doctor-friendly) story.
On making a study of oriental breathing techniques such as zen and taekwon do it may be seen that an important principle is abdominal pressure squeezing ("milking") the vena cava inferior which modulates cardiac output. The difficulty with this, and the reason for its not being recommended as an asthma cure, is that tuning the abdominal muscles to get the right time-pressure profile is tricky and there is no instant effect on asthma. Generally oriental breathing seems too mystical, despite its success in the marital arts and games such as tennis. However the US Congress has given a form of approval to yoga, see
http://wwwc.house.gov/international_relations/109/99819.pdf
109TH CONGRESS 1ST SESSION H. CON. RES. 34
"Whereas at age eight, Yogi Bhajan began yogic training, and eight years later was proclaimed by his teacher to be a master of Kundalini Yoga, which stimulates individual growth through breath, yoga postures, sound, chanting, and meditation;"
Specifically focussing breathing on the tanden (hara, tantien) a point felt as being about 2 centimetres below the navel instead of on the bronchi and maybe equivalent to one's guts ("got the guts to do it") will with practice following the many martial arts descriptions on the Internet lead to bronchospasm being overridden. Another term used is the "complete breath" in yoga.
I use qigong to overcome chest congestion caused by reflux, for example moving my arms together in a circle as slowly as slowly as possible to entrain breathing. I get down to around 4 breaths a minute for 5 minutes. It causes a "qi" (ki) sensation, vaguely like the shudder going through one's body with a long satisfying yawn.
As applied to cycling I initially do as many pedal strokes as possible per breath to overcome congestion, if any.
To sum it all up, asthma only seems incurable on mainstream medicine's model of respiration. Mainstream medicine may be gold standard in most respects, but on breathing and heart function it seems to be omitting important aspects. Regards, Richard Friedel
Per Elmsäter - 25 Sep 2005 20:38 GMT > Hi Perre, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > was "in denial" about having the disorder, but in a sort of > creative way. About where I'm at now I suppose ;-)
> On making a study of oriental breathing techniques such as zen and > taekwon do it may be seen that an important principle is abdominal [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > such as tennis. However the US Congress has given a form of approval > to yoga, see I've been doing Tantra Yoga for many years and it's good for what it's meant to do. Ie spiritual development. In some cases fringe benefits may be had as enhanced concentration and a more harmonious mind. However I'm not so highly developed yet that I can do my mantras in the middle of a bike race ;) I kind of have to make sure I don't crash and I would not recommend yoga and meditation in a traffic situation ;)
> As applied to cycling I initially do as many pedal strokes as possible > per breath to overcome congestion, if any. Interesting. I'll look into that. the only breathing technique I've been able to apply so far is to force my breath out and let it flow in naturally. This seems to help me get rid of C2O thus leaving more space for oxygen. However I'm not so sure this is asthma related as anybody ought to benefit from this.
> To sum it all up, asthma only seems incurable on mainstream > medicine's model of respiration. Mainstream medicine may be gold > standard in most respects, but on breathing and heart function it > seems to be omitting important aspects. Regards, Richard Friedel Yes it feels like it. Or maybe I simply need to find a physician that is really interested in asthma and EIA.If I was an Olympic candidate and not a 55 yo retiree prospect, then maybe it would be easier ;)
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Richard Friedel - 27 Sep 2005 17:00 GMT Hi Perre,
You might like to consider Autogenic Training, see:
http://www.maps.org/psychedelicreview/v1n5/01559mau.pdf
and the extract below. The mantras of yoga are simply renamed formulas ( it is breathing me for asthma) and there is only one chakra - the solar plexus.
You speak of forcing your breath out - which might be like a silent kiai yell in karate, which one supposes acts on the vena cava by increased pressure. Most asthma professionals believe that the back pressure (pursed lips) keeps the airways open, though this is disproved by modern research.
I could fax you some pages from "Oriental Breathing Therapy" by Dr. med. Takashi Nakamura" His exercises for tuning the abdominal wall to get the right pressure on the vena cava etc. results in a stronger candle-blowing breath. This seems to be a healthier approach than the unnatural (but in some cases invaluable) peakflow method. See pages 54-64 and 71-77.
For a detailed proof of the function of abdominal pressure on cardiac output, see "Die große Kraft des Atems" by Yoga author André van Lysebeth, chap. 19. I could fax this as well. Regards, Richard Friedel
>From "Zen Buddhism: A psychological review", pages 81-82, "............ some other methods are more indirect and require no such conscious control of the musculature. Schultz's autogenic training, which derived originally from auto-hypnotic techniques, is one of these. This method while well-known and widely used in Germany, is virtually unknown in this country. The first presentation of the method in English (Schultz and Luthe) appeared as late as 1959, but it lists over six hundred clinical and research reports on its use during the past thirty years. The method is as follows: the subject sits or lies down and assumes a relaxed state of mind. He concentrates on a "training formula," such as "my right arm is heavy," while maintaining mental contact with that portion of his body. An attitude of "passive concentration" - of focused awareness but unconcerned indifference to the functional outcome - is important in producing effects. Initial sessions may be as short as five minutes with one minute periods of concentration punctuated by one minute periods of rest. The full standard series of formulae proceeds from heavi¬ness in one arm, then both arms, then both legs, to warmth in the extremities, "heartbeat calm and regular," "it breathes me," "my solar plexus is warm," and "my forehead is cool." Each formula is added only after preceding ones are well-established. Since the kind of mental contact involved has very real con¬sequences for the circulation, blood pressure, and so on in the body parts concerned, careful supervision is maintained to avoid undesirable physical reactions. These are primarily of two kinds: (1) the trainee's mental contact may be incorrect (for example, the hand rather than the whole arm may be the area of focus), in which case a variety of minor symptoms may appear; (2) in the case of special irritability of certain body parts, such as psychoso¬matic conditions involving the heart or respiration, serious com¬plications may occur unless formulae involving these areas are approached carefully. Thorough mastery of the series ordinarily takes from one to eight months. The trainee should be capable of "switching on" the many various standard exercises effectively and almost in¬stantly by applying the following pattern of formulae: (..............) As a result of the quick (20-30 second) and effective application of the standard formulae, most trainees will experience the body as a resting mass which is heavy and warm. Slow pulsation of the heart and deep and slow respiration may be perceived. The head is usually experienced as being "separated" from the rest of the body. (Schultz k Luthe, 1959. pp. 95-96.)
Per Elmsäter - 27 Sep 2005 19:09 GMT > Hi Perre, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > pressure (pursed lips) keeps the airways open, though this is > disproved by modern research. Thanks Richard for taking so much of your time to write all this info down. Some of it is known to me and some is not. At this time of my life I don't have the time needed ( my priorities ) to spend with a full time Yoga program. When I get deep into my Tantra Yoga it will usually take 3 hours a day. This is about what I'm spending working out in the gym and on the bike. However I will most certainly keep looking into alternative methods of keeping my EIA under control without medication. As for now I will only medicate once or twice a week at the most, which will leave me with several workout sessions per week where I will have to be very conscious of my breathing not to get caught up in an Asthmatic state. I will also check out the pollution angle with my local health department.
Again I really appreciate the time all of you that have replied have given me. I definitely have a few new things to ponder ;)
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NorthShoreCEO - 27 Sep 2005 19:27 GMT As for now I will only
> medicate once or twice a week at the most, which will leave me > with several > workout sessions per week where I will have to be very > conscious of my > breathing not to get caught up in an Asthmatic state. Is there a reason you're rationing your medication?
Per Elmsäter - 27 Sep 2005 19:59 GMT > As for now I will only >> medicate once or twice a week at the most, which will leave me [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Is there a reason you're rationing your medication? Yes If you read my first post, you'll see that I was complaining about my medication affecting my heartrate. Actually if you read the subject line ;) If I don't take it for a week or two and then medicate when exercising my HR will be very close to HRmax ( maximum heartrate ) at a medium intense workout intensity. If I take it more than twice a week, or something like that haven't quite gotten the scheduling fixed, it will affect my HR quite the opposite. Ie it seems that after some time my HR will refuse to rise above say 85% of HRmax, even in a competition. After about 3 months into my cycling season I couldn't barely get it above 80%. When I quit medicating for a week my HR was immediately back up to normal. This was a side effect of this medication according to some of the replies I got. And now I'm trying to learn to live with them as well as look into different medication and alternative methods in the meantime.
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Per Elmsäter - 27 Sep 2005 20:01 GMT > As for now I will only >> medicate once or twice a week at the most, which will leave me [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Is there a reason you're rationing your medication? I was speed reading before replying to you. I just realized that you were already involved in this discussion from the beginning. Sorry. Which leads me instead to ask. Why do you ask this question?
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NorthShoreCEO - 27 Sep 2005 20:08 GMT >> As for now I will only >>> medicate once or twice a week at the most, which will leave [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Which leads me instead to ask. > Why do you ask this question? I knew your medication was giving you a problem, but I don't think it's wise to ration any medication that's needed. I don't know how healthcare works in your country, but here in the U.S., I would call my doctor to explain the problem and suggest we try a different medication.
Then again, you've got EIA, which is different than chronic asthma, which is what I had.
Per Elmsäter - 27 Sep 2005 21:19 GMT >>> As for now I will only >>>> medicate once or twice a week at the most, which will leave [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Then again, you've got EIA, which is different than chronic > asthma, which is what I had. Yes there is a distinct difference. I can choose to take it easier when exercising without medication, which will lead to losing form over time. Or I can choose to go all out when exercising whithout medication, which will kill my windpipes and have me suffer for days after each workout. Not to mention that I have a new workout scheduled the next day. Neither of these are very good alternatives and I'll probably end up with some kind of crummy compromise, which won't be very optimal either. At least racing season is over and I've got some time to work this out over the winter. I'll definitely lurk here even if I don't join the usual NG bantering ;)
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NorthShoreCEO - 27 Sep 2005 21:40 GMT > Yes there is a distinct difference. I can choose to take it > easier when [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I'll definitely lurk here even if I don't join the usual NG > bantering ;) Well, perhaps you will consider asking for a different medication, as both choses don't seem very pleasant.
Richard Friedel - 30 Sep 2005 09:25 GMT Hi Perre,
Yes, my last posting was a bit mystical.
Maybe the following argument more like a theorem in geometry will be more satisfying.
Nakamura ("Oriental Breathing Therapy") shows how intensive training of the abdominal muscles can benefit breathing. You lie on your back and breathe with increasing weights on your abdomen You start with one pound and end up with five in periods as long as 30 mins. Then in another exercise you sling a long length of cloth around your waist and get used to the feeling of the cloth's slipping in response to breathing.
This training improves the ability to blow out candles at an increasing distance.
Then you do synchronized breathing in more and more energetic exercises, i.e. synchronized to something like waving the arms in a circle. The physical effort for each cycle is gradually increased.
You experience improved breathing with controlled abdominal pressure.
This it seems clear to me is using the Frank-Starling mechanism to increase pulmonary blood flow by increasing venous return - squeezing the vena cava.
Speaking as a sort of hopefully honest, investigative, former sufferer from lung disorders, adopting this approach does produce a surge of blood into the lungs, which corrects regional mismatch between lung ventilation and lung blood supply - a principal symptom of asthma etc. I can take a deep breath in a vastly improved manner. There is a feeling of a wave moving upwards from around the navel to a full expansion of the upper chest and slight lifting of my shoulders. The heart beats more powerfully.
QED!
Note: a) Nakamura does not himself say this is a treatment for asthma. b) There are probably some side effects - worsening of pulmonary hypertension in some cases - but Nakamura's orderly presentation is very impressive.
Regards, Richard Friedel
Appendix:
Nakamura pages 75-77. .......................................
Relationship between breathing and the abdominal pressure We have already learned that the purpose of the breathing exercises is not only to promote air exchange in and out of the body but also to introduce a form of stimulus to the abdominal region. This stimulus, resulting in increased abdominal pressure through the strengthened muscles, drives extra blood, stagnant around the mesentery, into the veins. How exactly should one impose pressure on the lower abdominal region effectively? Before dropping off to sleep each night, stretch your legs out fully on the bed. Be sure that the body is relaxed, and concentrate. Inhale from the nose deeply, and hold the air for a while, and, while pushing it toward the lower abdominal region, exhale gradually next. When inhaling, count one; when exhaling count two. In this way, count your breaths as it is believed to be a very effective measure in calming the mental state and in being quietly inspired. Counting your breaths means concentrating your mind on the respiratory activities. Count the number from one to four consecutively, and then return to one again. Repeat this for about 500 rounds each night. The following points must be followed in breath counting exercises: 1) Inhale from the nose and try to push air down toward the lower abdomen from the chest and the upper abdominal region. Keep remember to expand the abdomen a little and make it slightly hard. Do not, however, try to conduct valsalva breath holding by closing the throat in an attempt to harden the abdominal part. This rushes blood up to the head, face and the neck regions. When inhaling, take as much time as is naturally possible. 2) After inhaling from the nose, take a pause for a few seconds. After holding the breath, exhale gradually. 3) Exhale air as slowly as possible, from the bottom of the lower abdominal region through the upper abdomen and the chest, and through the nose. When exhaling, remember to lower the abdomen a little bit more than usual and pull its muscles in. 4) Having exhaled from the nose, hold your breath counting from one to four. Pause between each count. 5) Repeat the exercise. Generally, four respiration cycles are completed per minute. Therefore, conduct this exercise for 15-30 minutes. This means a total of 60-100 rounds of inhaling and exhaling are to be completed before one is allowed to rest. Make it a rule to conduct three sets of this 15-30 minute exercise per day. This means that 300 rounds of the respiration exercise are to be conducted every day. 6) One may stand upright, sit on a chair, or stretch out full length on the floor to perform this exercise. One may even walk or sit on the floor while doing it. Once you are accustomed to this exercise, you can conduct it while doing needlework in the dining room or while cooking in the kitchen. It is also possible to be practicing it while engaged in office work or reading. One thing to remember regarding your posture when carrying out the exercise, though, is to keep it erect in one way or another. Also, if walking, walk at a stable pace with the length of each step equaling the length of your shoulder. Keep the upper body straight. Furthermore, if sitting on a chair, sit in deeply and stretch your backbone upright. Hold up the head and fit it there. Set your eyes on a certain object. Join your hands and set them on the knee; using them to count when sitting is suggested. When standing, place both arms flat on the sides of the body. If lying on your back on the floor, thrust both feet out and place both hands on the underbelly. For beginners, it is necessary to keep close track of whether the lower abdominal muscles are being put to full use. Therefore, place, both hands inside the belt. 7) It is vital that the upper body be relaxed while undergoing this exercise. The muscles in the neck, chest, shoulders, face, head, and hands are all be totally loose. The waist, the legs and the abdominal region, however, must be concentrated on fully. Unless the points mentioned above are paid attention to, especially by beginners, a rush of the blood to the head or dizziness may occur. Continuous pressure is to be imposed on the lower abdominal part when undergoing this exercise. How can this pressure prove effective? Physical pressure on the abdomen is caused by contraction and tension imposed on the diaphragm, the abdominal muscles, the waist muscles, and the backbone. This pressure gradually concentrates in the central part of the body, between the fourth and fifth lumbars and on the median line. This pressure activates movements, as well as the muscles in the waist and the abdomen. The intensity of this pressure is in proportion to the relaxation of the movement and muscles in the chest, shoulder, hands, neck, head, and face. In particular, the abdominal pressure stimulates the sensation of motion in the heels and the big toes of the feet. This is caused by the activation of the vagus, which consists of the pelvic ganglion, the sympathetic ganglion, and the inferior mesenteric ganglion at the center, stimulates the central autonomic nervous system, and promotes a sense of balance and coordination throughout the body. The activation also works to intensify the coordinated activities of the autonomic nervous system. Accordingly, the cerebrum, which directs the body's sense of balance, is stimulated with the introduction of pressure on the abdomen. Furthermore, the pressure excites the sensory area of the brain proper through thalamic radiation, which is brought on by the stimulation of the cerebrum. The pressure thus leads to total activation of the sensory aspects of the brain. The total activation of the perception in turn leads to coordination of senses, vital in memory functions. At the same time, simultaneous awakening of the central autonomic nervous system enriches emotional functions. The network of nerves controlling movement works to solidify the will when the system is totally coordinated throughout the body. Therefore, it is said that abdominal pressure gives physiological grounds for the purification of the will. Interrelationship between Breathing and Abdominal Pressure What is the relationship between breathing and abdominal pressure? In broad terms, they are as closely related to one other as two wheels on an axis. Respiratory training automatically means intensive exercises involving the abdominal pressure. The main aspects of breathing exercises are as follows: The time spent in exhaling must be more than that spent when inhaling. Each respiratory cycle must be carried out fully and calmly. Pressure both inhaling and exhaling must be conducted rhythmically. Breathing should be conducted through the nose. When respiration is involved, the various muscles in the chest as well as the diaphragm and abdomen all take part in the process. Specifically, among the muscles involved in the respiration process are external intercostal muscles and internal intercostal muscles. Among the auxiliary muscles taking part in the process of inhaling are anterior, medial, and posterior scalenus muscles, serratus posterior superior muscles, major and minor pectoral muscles, sternocleidomastoid muscles, levator scapulae muscles, and rhomboideus muscles. The muscles in the diaphragm take part in the process of exhaling. When these muscles are moved in coordination with the movements of the diaphragm in order to intensify each respiratory process, vital capacity of functions is increased, thereby improving the alveoli of the lung and hastening the circulation of both blood and lymph. Remember that the abdominal pressure must be exerted in upright postures, be it when one is standing, sitting or lying down. While undergoing the exercises, the walls of the chest are to be lowered slightly, and strength must be exerted in the waist region. The upper body must not lean forward or backward nor should it bend sideways. (Thrusting the hips out and tightening the anus helps.) The main part of the therapy is to strengthen the abdominal muscles during the process of exhaling. With all your might, exert efforts to strengthen the muscles while exhaling slowly from the nose. Keep the anus tight. The abdominal muscles can be worked out to maximum limits in this way.
Per Elmsäter - 30 Sep 2005 11:48 GMT > Hi Perre, > > Yes, my last posting was a bit mystical. > > Maybe the following argument more like a theorem in geometry will be > more satisfying. Thanks a whole lot Richard. Very interesting reading. I already try to employ the Valsalva breathing techniques when doing heavy Deadlifts or squats in the gym. I've never run across such a structured analysis of how it is done though. Definitely an article copied to My Documents ;) I'll keep a lookout for the whole book too.
One question. You mention pulmonary hypertension. Would that be the same as high blood pressure or what? Personally I suffer from low blood pressure so anything that will raise my blood pressure is welcome ;)
> Snipped extensive explanations
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Per Elmsäter - 29 Sep 2005 23:05 GMT I talked to my doctor today and mentioned some of the discussions we've had online. He decided that I could try out two alternate medications. First he prescribed me Bricanyl at half the strength I had been taking. Ie it might not affect my heart rate as much and hopefully be enough to keep my windpipes open. Number two was another medication altogether called pulmicort. I don't know anything about it at all, but it wasn't supposed to affect heart rate at all. Well I've got all winter to try it out.
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NorthShoreCEO - 30 Sep 2005 00:57 GMT >I talked to my doctor today and mentioned some of the >discussions we've had [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > affect heart rate at all. > Well I've got all winter to try it out. That's great, and I know the fans of Pulmicort here will weigh in.
Maureen
Per Elmsäter - 30 Sep 2005 11:51 GMT > That's great, and I know the fans of Pulmicort here will weigh > in. Why is there a Pulmicort fan club ;) I'm curious to know why those that choose to use it, did.
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