Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
GeneralCardiologyVisionDentistryPharmacyLaboratoryNutritionAlternative
Diseases and Disorders
AIDSAlzheimer'sArthritisAsthmaCancerBreast CancerDiabetesEpilepsyGlaucomaHepatitisHerpesLupusProstate BPHProstate CancerProstatitisSinusitisTinnitus

Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Asthma / February 2006

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Be prepared for Flu

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Don Brady - 18 Sep 2005 04:41 GMT
There could be a Bird Flu pandemic if it leaps to the human species, as many
epidemiologists are predicting  (Or it could be some other kind of  flu).

It may have a 40% death rate.

If you start to come down with any kind of flu, take Tamiflu immediately.   It
is almost the only drug that can be used.   It can also prevent flu (in many
cases) if you start taking it when and if a pandemic hits.  (Don't take it
until then though).

Many countries are now ordering large stockpiles of Tamiflu.  Odds are that if
there is a pandemic, you will not be able to get it unless you are in a
priority category.

So many people are getting a stock in advance now.   That includes me.   I just
ordered some from http://www.pharmaenergy.com/drugs/influenza/ .  That may be
technically illegal for U.S. residents but small personal imports are
tolerated.  That company will arrange for a German doctor to write you a
prescription, included in the price.  That is almost the only (so far) reliable
company that will still do that for Tamiflu - I have searched far and wide and
read discussion groups that share experiences on this topic).

Other alternatives include your local doctor and pharmacy (at a higher price
probably), or the Canadian Internet

You have been warned......

(I have no connection to these products or companies - I just dread the effect
that a flu epidemic would have on sinus and asthma sufferers).

Merlin - 18 Sep 2005 08:06 GMT
G'day Don, yes this raises another really interesting situation where
there are so many bogus laboratories producing packaged drugs which are
in fact completely counterfeit and commonly have no active ingredients
at all.
One interesting case was where a yank medical surgical team were
involved in a South African country as volunteer doctors, the surgical
operations went well but the patients started dying. When it was
discovered the drugs used in the hospital were counterfiet the team
packed up and went home.
So things may not be as they seem with these bogus drugs.
My advice was that there was no known effective drug available at this
time for this kind of flu.
Are you quite sure your information is correct.
Cheers, qldit.
mcs - 18 Sep 2005 13:30 GMT
> G'day Don, yes this raises another really interesting situation where
> there are so many bogus laboratories producing packaged drugs which are
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Are you quite sure your information is correct.
> Cheers, qldit.

> Good Question but maybe one too many .
Steven L. - 18 Sep 2005 16:25 GMT
> G'day Don, yes this raises another really interesting situation where
> there are so many bogus laboratories producing packaged drugs which are
> in fact completely counterfeit and commonly have no active ingredients
> at all.

"Frontline" did an episode on Chinese counterfeits.  The Chinese are
counterfeiting just about everything manufactured in the West, from
designer-name golf clubs to pharmaceuticals, and that stuff has spread
onto international websites.  And of course, the Chinese counterfeit
drugs are often worthless, containing no active ingredients.

Signature

Steven D. Litvintchouk
Email:  sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net

Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

Don Brady - 18 Sep 2005 19:35 GMT
>G'day Don, yes this raises another really interesting situation where
>there are so many bogus laboratories producing packaged drugs which are
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>packed up and went home.
>So things may not be as they seem with these bogus drugs.

It is indeed a possibility in general but I believe that the source I mentioned
is ok at this time.

See the discussions at http://www.curevents.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20275 .

>My advice was that there was no known effective drug available at this
>time for this kind of flu.
>Are you quite sure your information is correct.

Yes, see http://www.recombinomics.com/News/09160501/Tamiflu_Primetime.html and
the ABC News article at
http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/Investigation/story?id=1130392&page=1
and many other news stories.
Steven L. - 18 Sep 2005 16:29 GMT
> There could be a Bird Flu pandemic if it leaps to the human species, as many
> epidemiologists are predicting  (Or it could be some other kind of  flu).
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> (I have no connection to these products or companies - I just dread the effect
> that a flu epidemic would have on sinus and asthma sufferers).

But it's precisely because I have asthma that I am in a priority category.

Remember the flu shot shortage last fall?  When I told The Powers That
Be that I had asthma (and showed them a confirming note from my asthma
specialist), they fast-tracked me right to the top of the flu shot list
and I got my shot immediately.  In fact, I got my flu shot ahead of 80
year old men and women.

Signature

Steven D. Litvintchouk
Email:  sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net

Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

Don Brady - 18 Sep 2005 19:31 GMT
>But it's precisely because I have asthma that I am in a priority category.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>and I got my shot immediately.  In fact, I got my flu shot ahead of 80
>year old men and women.

Yes asthma sufferers were in the priority category for flu shots last year, and
are again this year.

(People who do not have asthma, such as myself, are not).

But if there is a flu pandemic, there may or may not be enough Tamiflu at that
time to include them all.  
http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/Investigation/story?id=1130392&page=3

>While there is no vaccine to stop the flu, there is one medicine to treat it. Called Tamiflu, it is made by the Roche pharmaceutical company in Switzerland. Roche has been selling Tamiflu for years.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>He later admitted that only 2 million are currently on hand, but asserted that no other country is in a better position.

The government calculationa are also way over-optimistic - see
http://www.recombinomics.com/News/09160501/Tamiflu_Primetime.html

Also for prophylactic use (to prevent or mitigate the severity of the flu
before you get it) after a pandemic starts, you are not going to be able to get
it once a shortage develops (which cold be imminent).
SJF - 19 Sep 2005 00:28 GMT
> There could be a Bird Flu pandemic if it leaps to the human species, as
> many
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> effect
> that a flu epidemic would have on sinus and asthma sufferers).

My layman's reading, Google and a product information slip which accompanied
an old prescription, is that there are several other antivirals on the
market which have similar effects on influenza A viruses.  None have
actually been demonstrated effective on bird flu but perhaps they may be
presumed to be effective against that influenza A virus.

Checking Drugstore.com, I note that the price for Tamiflu is about $600 for
100, for Amantadine (patent has long since expired) it is about $30 for 100.
There may be some differences in dosage and effectiveness (the latter
apparently not established) but it makes one wonder if there has been some
drug industry inspired hype to promote another me-to product.  It wouldn't
be the first time.

SJF
Don Brady - 19 Sep 2005 00:48 GMT
>My layman's reading, Google and a product information slip which accompanied
>an old prescription, is that there are several other antivirals on the
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>SJF

Amantadine and  Relenza are promising against Bird flu too.  Amantadine is
indeed much cheaper.

According to
http://www.recombinomics.com/News/09170502/Tamiflu_Amantadine_Prevention.html

> The emphasis on Tamiflu is due to the fact that the H5N1 isolated
> from patients in Vietnam and Thailand was amantadine resistant,
> so the only class of antivirals available was the neuramindase
> inhibitors, and only Tamiflu was readily available.

Amantadine may have more side effects.  Someone said that but I am not sure if
it is true.

Many people are ordering Anantadine too.  I will do that also,

The best thing may be a combo of the two, in the event someone does come down
with bird flu (at which point odds of living are only 50-50).  They work on
different principle and so can complement each other.
Merlin - 19 Sep 2005 01:53 GMT
What might you gentlemen all consider best, maybe the Titanic
revisited, mothers and children first, younger able bodied people say
up to 30 next, and the rest might  be most interesting.  Noah calls the
shots!
And the Tamiflu stuff still remains in the maybe category!
What is the bet the political boys would get a boat!!
What is the bet the Tamiflu stuff is really being counterfeited with
great gusto!
I was under the impression that India was one of the major sources for
bogus drugs.
Merlin.
Alison Chaiken - 19 Sep 2005 03:51 GMT
> Checking Drugstore.com, I note that the price for Tamiflu is about $600 for
> 100,

Roche's website (www.rocheusa.com/programs/TamifluChain2002.pdf) says
that the shelf life of Tamiflu is 3 years.  I'm not sure how many
doses a patient might take per day, but 100 sounds like a lot given
that the maximum extent of flu is 2 weeks in my experience.

Signature

Alison Chaiken            "From:" address above is valid.
(650) 236-2231 [daytime]    http://www.wsrcc.com/alison/
Predators fail often; prey fail only once. -- Tom Evslin

Don Brady - 19 Sep 2005 05:10 GMT
>Roche's website (www.rocheusa.com/programs/TamifluChain2002.pdf) says
>that the shelf life of Tamiflu is 3 years.  I'm not sure how many
>doses a patient might take per day, but 100 sounds like a lot given
>that the maximum extent of flu is 2 weeks in my experience.

The recommended  dose to treat flu in general is 2 per day for 5 days, for  a
total of 10.  

It seems from experimental data that longer (and maybe a higher dose) would be
better for bird flu.

But you can also take it during the "flu season" to prevent flu.   It is
approved also for that purpose.  For that purpose,  the recommended dose is one
per day..    Some authors have advised planning on taking it throughout each of
the posited 3 waves of a possible pandemic.   That could take you to about 100.
mcs - 19 Sep 2005 12:42 GMT
so without going to drugstore.com, , is that a reliable vendor?  Is paying
600 dollars something people are doing? Will they get good product as
opposed to counterfeit?

>>Roche's website (www.rocheusa.com/programs/TamifluChain2002.pdf) says
>>that the shelf life of Tamiflu is 3 years.  I'm not sure how many
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> the posited 3 waves of a possible pandemic.   That could take you to about
> 100.
Don Brady - 19 Sep 2005 22:31 GMT
>so without going to drugstore.com, , is that a reliable vendor?

I tihnk they are reliable.  Ther are others that are a bit cheaper but they are
mostly Canadian etc.

>  Is paying
>600 dollars something people are doing?

Most people probably just o rder one ($66) but soem are ordering several at
least.,

>Will they get good product as
>opposed to counterfeit?

No counterfeiting of Tamiflu has been reported to date.   It comes in a blister
pack and packaging that wouldot be easy to counterfeit.  Really if you buy from
a pharmacist in the U.S, or Canada or Germany your exposure to counterfeiting
is minimal.
Don Brady - 19 Sep 2005 23:13 GMT
>>so without going to drugstore.com, , is that a reliable vendor?
>
>I tihnk they are reliable.  Ther are others that are a bit cheaper but they are
>mostly Canadian etc.

Actually the others are *much* cheaper for larger quantities.
Alison Chaiken - 22 Sep 2005 02:49 GMT
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4268964.stm

Signature

Alison Chaiken            "From:" address above is valid.
(650) 236-2231 [daytime]    http://www.wsrcc.com/alison/
Predators fail often; prey fail only once. -- Tom Evslin

Alison Chaiken - 22 Sep 2005 02:56 GMT
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/21/health/21cnd-bird.html?ex=1284955200&en=b7ec20
1d9fd32466&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss


Signature

Alison Chaiken            "From:" address above is valid.
(650) 236-2231 [daytime]    http://www.wsrcc.com/alison/
Predators fail often; prey fail only once. -- Tom Evslin

Don Brady - 22 Sep 2005 03:23 GMT
>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/21/health/21cnd-bird.html?ex=1284955200&en=b7ec20
1d9fd32466&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Thanks for the blog-safe link.  I was just working on creating one but you beat
me to it.

I found the following excerpt interesting:

>..... researchers from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta found that influenza viruses, particularly those from the dreaded bird flu strain, had developed high rates of resistance to the only class of cheap antiviral drugs available - drugs mainly used to treat flu once patients have caught it. These resistance rates have increased rapidly since 2003, particularly in Asia.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>The immediate implications of these finding are most ominous for the developing world, because wealthier nations have been stockpiling newer and vastly more expensive antiviral medicines, like Tamiflu, which are effective against the disease but still under patent.
00doc - 19 Sep 2005 16:26 GMT
There are two broad types of influenza (with many subtypes each - hence
the reformulated vaccine every year) A and B. All the available meds
are active against type A flu's but most flu medications do not cover
type B; which is not so bad because almost all flu that goes around
each year is type A. The Avian flu's that have been detected are type
A. The vaccine usually contains three strains - two A's and one B.

The fear of a pandemic is because the avian flu has the "H5" subtype
which is similar to the pandemic strain if 1918 and has had a high
fatality rate in the few humans who have gotten it. The good news is
that there has been little to no human to human transmission so far.
The bad news is that that capability may just be a mutation or two
away. The estimates I have seen usually suggets more like a 20%
mortality rate (which could still be a disaster of Biblical
proportions) but I think at this point they are all just guessing.

To answer Alison's question: Presumably if a pandemic hit the people
who are stockpiling the meds would want to use it prophylactally  -
taking one pill daily to keep the flu away - rather than just keep it
around for treatment. In that case 100 pills may not be enough.

To my knowledge none of the agents has been shown to be more effective
than any of the others. I can't imagine there has been enough human
disease for anyone to be experienced enough to really know. The main
advantage of Tamiflu is that it covers type B, which is not an issue in
this case. It is much more expensive that the other pills which makes
me wonder about the motivation of these people selling it.

Amantidine does have more side effects, particularly in the elderly
(mostly neuropsychiatric). Rimatidine would be a good compromise on
effectiveness, cost, and side effects. One should keep in mind that
while the vaccine is a biological that must be grown in culture and so
production cannot easily be started or increased this is not true of
the meds we are discussing. Considering that there are four different
meds available (in the US), that two of them are out as generics and so
have several manufacturers, and that as non-biological agents
production can be increased relatively easily I think the risk of not
having enough meds to treat the high risk groups at least is small. The
bigger risk is that there will not be a vaccine and the meds will not
be as effective as we would like.
Don Brady - 19 Sep 2005 23:11 GMT
That was an excellent post.  

However, just to comment broiefly on one point:

>To my knowledge none of the agents has been shown to be more effective
>than any of the others. I can't imagine there has been enough human
>disease for anyone to be experienced enough to really know. The main
>advantage of Tamiflu is that it covers type B, which is not an issue in
>this case. It is much more expensive that the other pills which makes
>me wonder about the motivation of these people selling it.

News accounts do say:

"Oseltamivir, known commercially as Tamiflu, is the only treatment proven to be
effective against bird flu in humans."

(AP 8/27/05)

and the U.S. governmenti is reported today to be placing a one billion dollar
order for a stockpile of the drug.   I have to think that they would buy one of
the cheaper anivirals if they thought that they were as effective and safe..
00doc - 20 Sep 2005 04:12 GMT
> That was an excellent post.
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> to be
> effective against bird flu in humans."

You do have a point but the above is not true either. Nothing has been
proved effective in humans. There have simply not been enough cases and most
of the cases that have been detected have been in farmers in rural asia who
did not recieve effective antivirals of any kind early enough to expect to
make a real difference.

In laboratory experiments Tamiflu has been shown to be effective in mice
while some of the strains tested have been resistant to amantadine and
rimantadine. BTW - there is another neuraminidase inhibitor on the market
(Relenza) but it is even more expensive, is inhaled, and has been known to
cause bronchospasm so it is relatively contraindicated in people with lung
disease (like asthma).

> and the U.S. governmenti is reported today to be placing a one billion
> dollar
> order for a stockpile of the drug.   I have to think that they would buy
> one of
> the cheaper anivirals if they thought that they were as effective and
> safe..

I'm sure the lab data has a lot to do with it - although like I said, no one
really knows what effect the drugs will have. Parital effectiveness may be
enough to slow down the spread and turn a fatal disease into a severe but
survivable one.

On a related note(s):

The government says it is planning to stockpile 20 million doses of Tamiflu
and 20 million doses of the newly developed vaccine. The reality is that
they have only ordered 450,000 doses of vaccine so there seems to be some
kind of disconnect there. Strong antibody responses have been obtained in
humans but since no vaccinated person has ever been exposed to the virus no
one knows how effective it might be. The problem is that stockpiled vaccine
will not likely be an exact match for whatever strian emerges so the
immunity will likely only be partial.

Many models of spread suggest that 120,000 courses of treatment will
probably be enough to quell an outbreak. Of course, this assumes the
assumptions regarding the behavior of the virus are correct, that the
governments respond apprpriately within 2-3 weeks of detection, and that it
occurs in relatively rural south east asia and not Kuala Lampur, Bangkok, or
Los Angeles. Since the virus has been found in migratory waterfowl that may
not show symptoms I'm especially not optomistic about the last assumption.

Signature

00doc

Spicer - 24 Feb 2006 14:18 GMT
>> "Oseltamivir, known commercially as Tamiflu, is the only treatment
>> proven to be
>> effective against bird flu in humans."
> disease into a severe but survivable one.

There is no vaccine yet and even if one comes along it may only reduce
exposure & symptoms.

You may want to visit http://ge-e.com 

The product (Mini-Mate) creates a pure air breathing zone for the
wearer, repelling, incinerating, or oxidizing any particulates prior to
it entering the mouth, nose & eyes. The size and type of particulate is
immaterial, it can be the most lethal pathogen known to man and as long
as it measures between 3 microns 0.04 microns and is affected by
diffusion, turbulence, gravity and electrostatics the Mini-Mate will
offer an effective barrier.

Two respected experts in their fields who have offered their medical
opinion upon the product.
http://www.airsupply.ca/lantos.php was on the SARs commission in 2003
outbreak in Canada.
http://www.airsupply.ca/vadas.php

Please note the Influenza A+B claims. H5N1 is Influenza A.

The product has featured on Oprah Winfrey, Dateline NBC and other TV
shows, (see clips on our website). It has had extensive research but as
it's not a "mainstream" vaccine based solution the medical profession
are not talking about it, probably because a no large drug co will touch
it as it could ruin their drug sales in all sorts of areas. I'll leave
you to decide.
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.