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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Asthma / August 2005asthma & exercise
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/25/AR2005072501255.html Interesting article on exercise and asthma. Started back to the gym a few weeks ago and am loving it. (Tho when I get out of bed in the morning, my muscles feel like a truck ran over me.) Do your really think it helps to pass on the latest outpouring of the asthma industry with a spray as an icon? Fact is that for many breathing techniques like pursed lip breathing can turn asthma into a trivial complaint, if asthma drugs and drug-indoctrination are avoided from the beginning or only used tactically and extremely sparingly. Disciplined breathing is the answer. That is my experience from many years of asthma firstly in the usual form with the danger of respiratory panic and self-suffocation, and then a time of soldering on with the so ill-conceived " B u t e y k o" method. which may be in practice as hazardous its opponents say. To illustrate my agenda that orthodox medicine may be lying on breathing exercises, I can say that in a meeting of a hypertension support group I did question the medical director of the hospital hosting the group. I asked him what he thought of the "Gavish" method/device for training breathing to be slower and thus lowering blood pressure. He said that while he accepted the scientific principle (see Medline "Benjamin Gavish") there were no long term studies. On the other hand he had been recommending the latest. drugs for high blood pressure, on which there were only randomized clinical tests. I guess you've somehow gotta learn from the productive mistrust and inquisitiveness of Inspector Columbo. The real hot news for many seems to be the realization that a host of lung diseases are caused to some extent at least by GERD (reflux) even without typical heartburn symptoms. Diet and other lifestyle factors may play an important role. IMHO some doctors mystify diseases to have an excuse to use medication like cortisone pills or beta-blockers, where the true cause could be found by the appropriate (ENT doc for GERD) specialist and not a pulmonologist. Regards, Richard Friedel I have been reading the emails posted here for a while now - desperately seeking a support group. That is -- -a group of people that discuss their experiences with athsma and what has/hasn't worked for them personally. Unfortuantely, I have not been able to come accross such a group. Then upon reading this email I was shocked to see someone write in suggesting that athsma can be 'turned into' a trivial complaint. The fact is this....people die from this disease!! I think it's a mistake to trivialise that. Athsma is not simply an inconvenience to some of us (or any of us who have a severe attack and end up hooked up to machines.) For some of us, it can take over and turn life into a living hell. I realise as an asthmatic who has suffered this condition all of my 31 years how easily it can be to become complacent and learn to live with the wheeze and the puffers and maybe occasionally some prednilosone etc. thinking that it is all very normal and it will not kill you.(it's just your little burden to bear) But then one morning you might wake up unable to move air at all - with the realisation (in the crazy oxygen deprived place that is your mind) that soon you might meet St. Peter at the pearly gates. Now at this point if you're lucky the ambulance will arrive in time and then you might get to spend the next five days or so in intensive care with drip lines in every available vein, a catheter and don't forget a positive pressure ventilation mask attatched (very tightly) to your face. (Now let's not forget that's if your lucky - the unlucky ones get the pearly gates or the ventilation via a tube down their throat - or maybe it is luckier not to remember anything). That of course .. if you're lucky -- might be followed up by a haematoma in your wrist from the arterial line they shove around taking blood out of every ten minutes and hence nerve damage and months of physiotherapy. That might even be followed by a elbow to shoulder length clot in your arm and then 6 weeks later blood clots in every drip line...2 extra stones of weight from the cortisone drugs and the depression that comes from not recognising your own face in the mirror. All this while you are not forgetting that you are the lucky one -- and are ever grateful for the drugs and medical procedures that your life wouldn't exist without....yes, even with all the complications. Now I don't want to get involved in the to-ing and froing of this breathing method and that breathing method or this drug or that drug and please Richard I am not trying to suggest that you haven't personally experienced merit in breathing techniques but I want to remind the people reading and posting on here that it is a serious disease that we are talking about. I could not sit here and let that go by without speaking out on behalf of those that experienced that kind of terror followed by a walk into the great beyond - they don't have a voice because they aren't here. I'm sure there are others here who have walked a similar path with this disease and they know what I'm talking about. Why not talk about our own experiences instead of making value judgements on drugs/breathing techniques in such a generalised way. I am still hopeful of finding some support from others who have had similar experiences with this disease as myself. If anyone knows where I can find a group where people talk about their own experiences with athsma please let me know. Hoping you all stay well, Franki. > Do your really think it helps to pass on the latest outpouring of the > asthma industry with a spray as an icon? [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > where the true cause could be found by the appropriate (ENT doc for > GERD) specialist and not a pulmonologist. Regards, Richard Friedel Franki: It sounds as tho you are looking for a group to commiserate with you rather than a group that also posts new science or new techniques for those not satisfied with what they have already tried. Some people might be wanting both. But if all you want is to share your pain and suffering with others who will gladly do the same with you, there is such a forum. It is moderated. Personally, I found their constant whining depressing and left. I don't mean to sound critical but that's how it came off to me. And I have ventured near those pearly gates you speak of. Even though I'm doing great now, I realize that a simple head cold with accompanying drip into my lungs, might mean a fight for my life again as it did a couple of months ago when a girl who passed it onto me with a handshake later assured me that "it's nothing. It only last a couple of days." Little did she know they felt like they were going to be my last days. I wish people with colds would be more sensitive about going out around others and if they must, at least avoid shaking hands with people. But perhaps that is the type of group you are looking for. If so, write me and I will give you the forum address. Best, Rae |I have been reading the emails posted here for a while now - desperately | seeking a support group. That is -- -a group of people that discuss their [quoted text clipped - 83 lines] | > where the true cause could be found by the appropriate (ENT doc for | > GERD) specialist and not a pulmonologist. Regards, Richard Friedel What I've done is to create and maintain my own clean air environment in the middle of New York City, starting with a HEPA filter machine and a de-humidifier. A small apartment commensurate with large electric bills. No !#$$$%#@! car: Taxis and Access-a-Ride. More economical and simpler than automobilism.---Jack Stacy, You might be thinking of "!Asthma UK", one possible link being http://www.asthma.org.uk/discus/messages/1/782.html?1099129686 I: I did post there on Buteyko and other non-drug approaches, very restrainedly, I guess, but got kicked out for posting too much, which wasn't true at all. The forumees were just wallowing in their own misery and trying to put an asthmatic identity on anybody who happened to look in. As for breathing exercises, see http://www.ohiou.edu/isarp/conf_00/papr_19.htm on the mechanism of airtrapping from an academic, not a pharma source. I think it is a sort of debriefing. If some patients get a successful experience, even a small one, curbing an attack by breathing discipline they may be highly motivated. Maybe I was in denial about my being a moderately severe asthmatic, but I did come clean and the experience has given a better understading of my body and hence better health.. The recent experience with the hospital medical director on breathing exercises for high blood pressure is confirmation that such pillars of society may be lying on key issues. The Gavish method gives a drop in diastolic pressure by around 10 points but you have to keep the technique at the back of your mind, and it becomes a habit. Regards, Richard Friedel > Stacy, > You might be thinking of "!Asthma UK", one possible link being > http://www.asthma.org.uk/discus/messages/1/782.html?1099129686 I: I > did post there on Buteyko and other non-drug approaches, very > restrainedly, I guess, but got kicked out for posting too much, > which wasn't true at all. ROFLMAO. I've always kind of liked the brits.  Signature00doc Rae, Thank you for responding to my post and I can appreciate that's your interpretation and I respect that. However, that wasn't the point I was trying to make (- but certainly on some level I would like to discuss this with other people who have had similar experiences..who are willing to share their own experiences - so I would appreciate if you would forward onto me the address of the forum(s) so that I can make my own judgement on it/them. ) I am also interested in learning more about what's available for asthmatics but I believe it's important to acknowledge that conventional medicine and drugs have their place in the treatment of athsma. I believe it is dangerous to suggest or make the inference that athsma is a trivial complaint...this is the point I was trying to make. I do not hope to gain your or anyone else's sympathy but simply make those of you who suffer this disease aware of the dangers of not taking it seriously. To post on a newsgroup the that this can be turned into a trivial complaint with simple breathing techniques might encourage someone (lets hope that no one would take any medical advice from a group of strangers without doing their own personal research) who shouldn't stop taking their medications to go ahead and do so without the advice of a good doctor. Both sides of that equation should therefore be put forward. I have appreciated the fact that there are people posting here that are willing to put their opinions out there and healthy differences of opinions are what keeps this kind of newsgroup informational and up to date. I would just like to see people refer to how these techniques/products have helped them personally. Anything other than that just comes accross as advertising - not meaning to sound critical of course. I am glad to hear that you are doing great now and I hope you stay well Franki. > Franki: > [quoted text clipped - 132 lines] > | > where the true cause could be found by the appropriate (ENT doc for > | > GERD) specialist and not a pulmonologist. Regards, Richard Friedel Hi Franki: Actually Richard already listed it above. I gave you the wrong email address so you would not have been able to contact me. Sorry about that. I really didn't want to promote their site by posting their address because I think their forum is rubbish. But it does sound like more of what you are looking for: http://www.asthma.org.uk/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi You will find there are a few darlings there, regulars, that can do no wrong and some of them are also moderators. This is unfortunate since some of these moderators can barely read and will often mis-interpret the common English language and choose to pounce upon perceived attacks that were never made. They also consistently break the rules everyone else is supposed to abide by. Richard said above that he was given the boot because he made too many posts. I can assure you Richard, that was not the reason. One of the darlings, jannymo, I believe is her name, boasts of the number of her posts for which she is congratulated and I'm sure the number is still climbing. Richard could not have possibly posted too much for that forum and I'm sure she outposted him by twofold. What I suspect he did, tho I don't know what his handle was, was to post some unconventional therapies and they did not like that. They do not want to hear suggestions on how they may help themselves or alternative therapies or any new science that may be in development that may provide an eventual cure or that might help their condition. It is my personal opinion that if there were a magic pill that would cure them, they would then be miserable to the point of creating a new illness (out of their awareness) for they would have lost their little chronic shelter that they have crawled into and made their home. The movie, "The Singing Detective" comes to mind. You will find there, a constant stream of wining and detailing of their day, their night, their new dosage of their meds, their last trip to hospital, etc. etc., etc, in between picking on certain others who choose to fight this condition and refuse to succumb to it and a lifetime of medication. Like Richard, I was given the boot. First for one reason, then when I called them on it, they made up another reason and many threads were pulled to hide the evidence. But if it's commiserating that you want, you will get it there. And I can understand wanting a sympathetic shoulder. But I think that after a while, we need to leave that comfort zone and get to moving our a-- on getting control of our life Hope you find what you need and what works for you. Rae | Rae, | [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] | | Franki. > Like Richard, I was given the boot. First for one reason, then when > I > called them on it, they made up another reason and many threads were > pulled to hide the evidence. Go figure. I might have to go check this place out. Signature00doc And if YOU are given the boot, it will be me ROFLMAO. Please let us know if indeed it happens. It would be highly amusing. Rae | > Like Richard, I was given the boot. First for one reason, then when | > I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | | I might have to go check this place out. > And if YOU are given the boot, it will be me ROFLMAO. I'm sure it would. I'm sure it would. -- 00doc By the way, if you want to hear about what helped me, I will be happy to share that with you but first I must give the required disclosure: WARNING:: It is non conventional aternative therapy and does not involve conventional medication though I am sure it would not negatively counter act with any medication you are taking. | Rae, | [quoted text clipped - 194 lines] | > | > where the true cause could be found by the appropriate (ENT doc for | > | > GERD) specialist and not a pulmonologist. Regards, Richard Friedel > though I am sure it would not > negatively counter act with any medication you are taking. How would you know? Kava kava combined with benzo's have been shown to be deadly, St. John's Wort can be dangerous when combined with pharmaceutical antidepressants, and some herbals have been shown to cause liver toxicity. You can't just assume safety. Signature00doc Well that is true I suppose. But you know what I have been taking. Do you think the yamoa and its anti flammatory action would counter act with any of the asthma meds? I'm also taking pycnogenol now. Although it's not the one the French guy and Jack claims is the *only* one that works. Rae | > though I am sure it would not | > negatively counter act with any medication you are taking. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] | | You can't just assume safety. > Well that is true I suppose. > But you know what I have been taking. Do you think the yamoa and its > anti flammatory action would counter act with any of the asthma > meds? I have no idea. After reading the website you cited I'm not sure anyone does. When you consider that many side effects do not become apparent until the substance has been taken by 100,000's of people and even then only with active surveillance I doubt anyone ever will. As for interactions - maybe you should ask the manufacturer what studies they have done. If they were not escaping FDA regulation they would have to at least study the effects on the cytochrome system, protien binding, and interactions with warfarin. It would be interesting to see if they have done any of this. Signature00doc | > though I am sure it would not | > negatively counter act with any medication you are taking. | | How would you know? | | Kava kava combined with benzo's have been shown to be deadly What are "benzo's" ? I took some kava kava in the suggested dosage by someone once and thought it was the most awful experience. For me, it was not at all relaxing. I think it was too strong a dose. I couldn't wait for it to wear off. I'm very sensitive to most of that stuff. Don't think I've ever tried St. John's Wort. Does one develope a tolerence with it after a while? , St. | John's Wort can be dangerous when combined with pharmaceutical | antidepressants, and some herbals have been shown to cause liver | toxicity. | | You can't just assume safety. They were given the boot because "he's a nut" and she's a "nut" pure and simple. If you want support go to WedMed. Joy I don't want to get into name calling with you Joy. If someone looks up some of your posts here, which have been rather bizarre to say the least, then they can make their own determinations about who's a "nut". Hope you will find a way to put away your bitter and negative attitudes and move on in your life in a positive way. And let's just say that people who live in glass houses really shouldn't throw rocks and leave it at that. Peace & Joy to you Joy. | They were given the boot because "he's a nut" and she's a "nut" pure and | simple. If you want support go to WedMed. | | Joy Hey Rae, I think you should look at this one! "I have never believed in supplements, until I began taking Serralone (Serrapeptase), from a company called Generation Plus. This stuff works. Hands down. After trying a lot of different remedies, I tried this after reading a lot about it. Like many of you, I was skeptical. But I feel good... really good. I think it's because of the Serralone. Try this place for some pretty cheap prices. They were pretty quick too. http://www.pvnutrition.com If you find someplace with better prices, place it here so we can all save." Try it, you may like it. Joy > I don't want to get into name calling with you Joy. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > | > | Joy Yeah, you're right. Sorry. I'm going to get better when it stops raining, which is forcing me to take 'roids. And then that leads to the psychosis issue. Joy > They were given the boot because "he's a nut" and she's a "nut" pure and > simple. If you want support go to WedMed. > > Joy Joy wrote <<< Group: alt.support.asthma Date: Sat, Jul 30, 2005, 11:33pm From: none@nospam.net (TRN) They were given the boot because "he's a nut" and she's a "nut" pure and simple. If you want support go to WedMed. Joy Maybe a little blunt but you sure as hell don' have to apologize to me Joy. Cuts through a lot of hot air.---Jack Thanks Jack. Do get tired of being under fire though. Really, who is posting the bizarre stuff? Asthma and exercise has been debated to DEATH. I suppose I could go back and list all the past arguments that lead me to calling Richard a nut, but it is so pointless. I just can't wait to go through all the nasal resistance crap again. Oh, I forgot, it is the disordered breathing crap this week. She is clearly not listening at this point. Not that I didn't try and tell her. And now there is another supplement on the table. Sheesh. Joy > Joy wrote > <<< [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Maybe a little blunt but you sure as hell don' have to apologize to me > Joy. Cuts through a lot of hot air.---Jack Franki: I couldn't resist taking a peep and I see that you joined that support forum. I am glad you found a site that will help you (in spite of my own feelings about them). Sounds like you had a really terrible time with that hospital experience. Takes a while to get over a bad episode/asthma attack and the fear of a repeat of it. Rae | Rae, | [quoted text clipped - 194 lines] | > | > where the true cause could be found by the appropriate (ENT doc for | > | > GERD) specialist and not a pulmonologist. Regards, Richard Friedel Thanks Rae, and I agree with you that it isn't something we should allow to take over our lives and become our existence ... but at the moment...like I said in the other forum it is a mental battle for me to get past it. I do agree with you about getting up off your butt and doing something about it. I have been athsmatic a long time and have never before gone looking for a support group but it was suggested to me that I seek that out (by a counsellor) for the time being because it's impossible to understand such an experience unless you have been through it. This counsellor is suggesting that I am experiencing some level of depression - another card I'm reluctant to play and would rather deal with naturally. I wouldn't normally go to a counsellor either but as I am unable to sleep now I thought I'd better do something as I have responsibilities and can't afford to fall apart -- who can? I wish you all the best Rae. I will keep reading and keep my mind open to new things. In the end we are all out here looking for the same thing -- good health - be it physical health or mental health. Thanks for the address of the other forum. Franki. > Franki: > [quoted text clipped - 239 lines] > | > | > GERD) specialist and not a pulmonologist. Regards, Richard > Friedel I guarantee if everyone WHO DEVELOPED adult astham or kids with asthma compared their breathing in low particulate to high particulate levels they would see a marked improvement. Please listen , I am convinced this woould help at least 40 percent of people , not breathing techniques which I think is totally useless. Please compare and when you get to clean air state, email me I need a place I can afford > Do your really think it helps to pass on the latest outpouring of the > asthma industry with a spray as an icon? [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > where the true cause could be found by the appropriate (ENT doc for > GERD) specialist and not a pulmonologist. Regards, Richard Friedel If you find any "clean air" states, mcs, please let me know. I doubt there are any at this point. Some a little better than others maybe. There must be a comparison on that somewhere online. My state is a bad one unfortunately. I used to think that perhaps living near the ocean where the breezes constantly blow away pollution might be the answer since I was asthma free in Miami. Yet as I posted here previously, Bermuda is now having an "epidemic" in asthma cases and they apparently don't know why or it wasn't published in that article. They are surrounded by ocean there, so that isn't the answer. Unless perhaps they are getting winds there that are carrying pollution from some other area. As far as breathing techniques, I've not studied any other than nasal breathing which I did not do for asthma but for meditation techniques. However, when exercising, if I over do it to the point where I shouldn't be, I naturally start gulping air and feel the need for the inhaler. If I tone it down a bit until I can get control of the way I breathe, taking more controlled breaths, breathing in deeply and more slowly through the nose and blowing out through the lips, after a few seconds, I can do without the inhaler. So I don't think you can dismiss breathing control altogether. I know nothing of these other breathing techniques they are speaking of such as Buteyko and pursed lip or whatever they called it. |I guarantee if everyone WHO DEVELOPED adult astham or kids with asthma | compared their breathing in low particulate to high particulate levels they [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] | > where the true cause could be found by the appropriate (ENT doc for | > GERD) specialist and not a pulmonologist. Regards, Richard Friedel > If you find any "clean air" states, mcs, please let me know. I > doubt there > are any at this point. Some a little better than others maybe. > There must be > a comparison on that somewhere online. My state is a bad one > unfortunately. Rae, try these sites: http://www.lungusa.org/site/apps/s/content.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=34706&ct=67903 http://www.scorecard.org/ Note to ARoberts - Check out number 2 here: http://www.sierraclub.org/toxics/cancer/map.asp Geeze, it's either that or the ridiculous property taxes in Lake County. (mine is 9K a year) Thanks for these. Very interesting. Rae | > If you find any "clean air" states, mcs, please let me know. I | > doubt there [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | | Rae, try these sites: http://www.lungusa.org/site/apps/s/content.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=34706&ct=67903 | http://www.scorecard.org/ | [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | Geeze, it's either that or the ridiculous property taxes in Lake | County. (mine is 9K a year) | http://www.scorecard.org/ I just did a search on that listing. And the company my friend told me about which I mentioned to Bob (Federal Mogul Friction Products) is there on the list. And still spewing their pollution. I gotta move from this place. Hopefully in the next five years.... Just hope there's no permanent damage by that time. Rae | > If you find any "clean air" states, mcs, please let me know. I | > doubt there [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | | Rae, try these sites: http://www.lungusa.org/site/apps/s/content.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=34706&ct=67903 | http://www.scorecard.org/ | [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | Geeze, it's either that or the ridiculous property taxes in Lake | County. (mine is 9K a year) Rae, Re. the pollutioin issue, how about looking into the article on the pulmonary effects of GERD, heartburn to many. http://www.australiandoctor.com.au/htt/pdf/AD_HTT_027_034___OCT29_04.pdf N I look upon GERD as a sort of master factor for cough and chest troubles.It might possiblly have an influence on pollution effects. I have a sensitivity to particles in exhaust fumes and stopping "esophageal acid" coming up into my throat might help. Getting my stomach settled by eating something like dry bread or oat flakes (porridge, British word) before going to bed at night, seems to reduce my GERD cough. The explanation given me by an ENT doc was very convincing. Regards, Richard Friedel. BTW, you're really a whiz at working that search engine! | > If you find any "clean air" states, mcs, please let me know. I | > doubt there [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | | Rae, try these sites: http://www.lungusa.org/site/apps/s/content.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=34706&ct=67903 | http://www.scorecard.org/ | [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | Geeze, it's either that or the ridiculous property taxes in Lake | County. (mine is 9K a year) |
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