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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Asthma / July 2005pycnogenol revisited
Three studies on pycnogenol (French maritime bark extract) "Pycnogenol may be a valuable nutraceutical in the management of chronic asthma. We recommend that further clinical trials be conducted in larger groups of asthmatics to establish its efficacy." PMID: 12639402 "...subjects taking placebo, the group who took Pycnogenol had significantly more improvement in pulmonary functions and asthma symptoms. The Pycnogenol group was able to reduce or discontinue their use of rescue inhalers more often than the placebo group. There was also a significant reduction of urinary leukotrienes in the Pycnogenol group. The results of this study demonstrate the efficacy of Pycnogenol as an adjunct in the management of mild-to-moderate childhood asthma." PMID: 15641632 "In asthma patients symptom scores and circulating leukotrienes are reduced and lung function is improved." PMID: 11996210 *************************************************************** AND NO REPORTED SIDE EFFECTS!! AND EVEN IF IT DOESN'T HELP THE ASTHMA, IT IS A POWERFUL ANTIOXIDANT. WORTH A TRY ?? I WOULD SAY SO!! >Three studies on pycnogenol (French maritime bark extract) >"Pycnogenol may be a valuable nutraceutical in the management of >chronic asthma. We recommend that further clinical trials be conducted >in larger groups of asthmatics to establish its efficacy." >PMID: 12639402 >"...subjects taking placebo, the group who took Pycnogenol had >significantly more improvement in pulmonary functions and asthma [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >reduced and lung function is improved." >PMID: 11996210 >*************************************************************** >AND NO REPORTED SIDE EFFECTS!! AND EVEN IF IT DOESN'T HELP THE >ASTHMA, >IT IS A POWERFUL ANTIOXIDANT. Yes, these studies have been posted here previously. Each of these studies recommended that further investigation be performed to determine efficacy in a statistically significant sample. I haven't been able to find additional trials beyond the one in 2004, and it will be interesting to see if there will be more studies of this. By any chance, are you marketing this product? WORTH A TRY ?? I WOULD SAY SO!! Marketing it? No, I would say NOT SO.... If I were, there would be a product or store name wouldn't there? duhh.... little paranoid are we? You must be the newsgroup police for this newsgroup. >Marketing it? >No, I would say NOT SO.... >If I were, there would be a product or store name wouldn't there? >duhh.... >No. Many posters ease into it a bit before springing their "offer" to provide a product for money and links to a website, or conveniently steer people to one. You should know that, if you've been around usenet very long. >little paranoid are we? You must be the newsgroup police for this >newsgroup. I had some favorable things to say about your posting, but since this is a commercially-marketed product, it is absolutely a legitimate question. I didn't ask it in a confrontational way, and I believe the answer to that question gives context to your posting. Don't you want to know if someone who is recommending a medical treatment has a vested interest in that recommendation? > Three studies on pycnogenol (French maritime bark extract) > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > PMID: 12639402 J Med Food. 2001 Winter;4(4):201-209. Pycnogenol((R)) in the Management of Asthma. Hosseini S, Pishnamazi S, Sadrzadeh SM, Farid F, Farid R, Watson RR. College of Public Health and School of Medicine, The University of Arizona, 1501 N. Campbell Ave., Tucson, AZ 85724. > "...subjects taking placebo, the group who took Pycnogenol had > significantly more improvement in pulmonary functions and asthma [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > group. The results of this study demonstrate the efficacy of Pycnogenol > as an adjunct in the management of mild-to-moderate childhood asthma." Pycnogenol as an adjunct in the management of childhood asthma. Lau BH, Riesen SK, Truong KP, Lau EW, Rohdewald P, Barreta RA. Division of Microbiology and Molecular Genetics, Department of Biochemistry and Microbiology, School of Medicine, Loma Linda University, Loma Linda, California 92350, USA. bLau@som.llu.edu > PMID: 15641632 > > "In asthma patients symptom scores and circulating leukotrienes are > reduced and lung function is improved." > > PMID: 11996210 Int J Clin Pharmacol Ther. 2002 Apr;40(4):158-68. A review of the French maritime pine bark extract (Pycnogenol), a herbal medication with a diverse clinical pharmacology. Rohdewald P. Institute Pharmaceutical Chemistry, Westfalische Wilhelms-Universitat Munster, Germany. rohdewa@uni-muenster.de > *************************************************************** > AND NO REPORTED SIDE EFFECTS!! AND EVEN IF IT DOESN'T HELP THE ASTHMA, > IT IS A POWERFUL ANTIOXIDANT. > > WORTH A TRY ?? I WOULD SAY SO!! So have you tried it and does it work? Joy I got some of this some time ago and will be trying it soon and will let you know my own results. Apparently its good for a lot of conditions. Rae | Three studies on pycnogenol (French maritime bark extract) | [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] | | WORTH A TRY ?? I WOULD SAY SO!! >I got some of this some time ago What - pycnogenol or the paranoid greeting? This is far from new. Goes back to France in the 1940's. And Lewis and Clark. Look up Jacques Masquelier on your search engine. The p word belongs to the dissident American promotors. Who are in court with (of course) the French originators. I use these powerful antioxidents. A believer.---Jack Mallory I did that search and one of the first sites that came up posted this info below: Question: Did it help with your asthma (if you have asthma). When we went to our local health pharmacy and asked for "pycnogenol", the pharmacist gave us grape seed extract which we rejected since all we had read in our research involved the pine bark extract. I then ordered the pine bark pycnogenol somewhere online. But according to this article, the grape seed extract would have actually been a little superior. Will have to research this further.... Eating For Scuba Diving Fitness: The Lesser Known Antioxidants - Part IV: Proanthocyanidins by Gary L. Taylor, Technical IT, etc. Proanthocyanidins are also known under several other names, among the most common: OPC, pycno-genols, and leukocyanidins. Proanthocyanidin is a name for a class of bioflavaniods. In 1936, this bioflavinoid was classified and referred to as Vitamin P, although it didn't gain official vitamin category status. The common link between the bioflavaniods, of which there are about 20,000 different ones, is that they contain a benzene-pyran-phenolic acid molecular nucleus (referred to as flavin) as part of their much larger molecular structure. Proanthocyanidins have been sold as nutritional/therapeutic supplements in Europe for almost a quarter of a century. Their introduction to the United States has been relatively recent. The discovery of proanthocyanidins can be attributed to Professor Jacques Masquelier. Dr. Masquelier spent almost a half century researching proanthocyanidin. He also invented the extraction techniques by which proanthocyanidins are obtained from plants rich in these substances. Much of the research and documentation for the known and suspected effects/benefits of proanthocyanidins comes from many of the European research institutes and universities. The most noted individuals involved in proanthocyanidin research are Dr. Jacques Masquelier, Dr. Morton Walker, and Dr. Richard Passwater. The institutions that have been noteworthy for this same research include: The Pasteur Institute, Horphag Research Ltd., The Huntington Institute, and the University of Bordeaux. Information contained in this article is derived from research documented by the above. What are the natural sources rich in proanthocyanidins? Proanthocyanidins are found in high concentrations from such sources as: cranberries, grape skins, grape seeds, pine bark, lemon tree bark, and hazelnut tree leaves. The two most common and richest known sources are grape seed extract and pine bark extract. It has been indicated that grape seed extract may be a better choice because: 1) It yields a 10% higher concentration of proanthocyanidins. 2) Grape seed extract contains a specific proanthocyanidin with a higher degree of oxygen free radical scavenging potential. This proanthocyanidin is designated as Proanthocyanidine B2-3'-0-gallate. There is little doubt as to the powerful antioxidant properties of proanthocyanidins. In vitro research has confirmed that they are 50 times more effective than vitamin E and 20 times more powerful than vitamin C. Proanthocyanidins also prevent the oxidation of vitamin C to dehydroascorbate by providing hydrogen ions which reduce glutathione - keeping the levels of the active for of vitamin C (ascorbate) higher. One aspect, relating to oxygen toxicity effects on the brain and CNS, which proanthocyanidins have, is they can penetrate the blood-brain barrier better than certain other antioxidants. Many technical divers take aspirin to help decrease the probability of platelets adhering to capillary walls and reduce the probability of blood clotting. Proanthocyanidins have the same effects as well as protecting the platelets from free radical damage - all without some of aspirin's side effects as experienced by a few people. Leukotriene oxidation produces powerful bronchioconstrictors. This oxidation can take place when a diver breathes oxygen at high partial pressures. This class of bronchioconstrictors are not blocked by the endogenous antihistamines of the body and could increase the risk factor of technical dives. Proanthocyanidins, by their antioxidant properties, help prevent the formation of these compounds and reduce the levels of any that are present. Anyone who is involved with dives where high partial pressures of oxygen are encountered, should know that one of the physiological concerns is lipid peroxidation and the attending effects on the diver. Proanthocyanidins reduce the level of lipid peroxidation. The protection from free radicals which proanthocyanidins offer helps to increase efficiency of the circulation by preventing free radical damage to the walls of the capillaries, strengthening the walls of blood vessels, maintaining healthy permeability of the blood vessel walls, and ensuring elasticity of the arteries and veins. The diver depends on a healthy circulatory system, with all the demands diving puts on it - at times extreme demands. DOSAGE: Although there is no official established dosage for proanthocyandidins, the research indicates that maximum benefits are indicated with daily dosages of 60 mg. CONTRAINDICATIONS: None documented at the present time. TOXICITY: No known toxic effects - research from the Pasteur Institute and Huntington Institute as well as others. OTHER CONFIRMED, INDICATED, OR POTENTIAL BENEFITS: Boost immune system Protection from arteriosclerosis Enhance connective tissue health Reduces lipid peroxidation Boosts the effects of vitamin C Lower cholesterol levels Reduces inflammation & edema Reduced cancer risk Reduced risk of stroke and heart attack Effective antioxidant for brain & nerve tissue Possible arthritis reduction and relief Helps prevent inflammation of lung tissues Potential anti-aging benefits Reduction & repair of UV damage to cells Reduction of muscle cramps Potential for reduction of diabetic retinopathy *** Appears to enhance and augment the antioxidant properties of vitamins E, C, and A. I'm sure there will be much more on-going research on proanthocyanidins as the potentials they hold for health benefits appear to be great. Next article will continue with some of the lesser known antioxidants. | This is far from new. Goes back to France in the 1940's. And Lewis and | Clark. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] | | I use these powerful antioxidents. A believer.---Jack Mallory BTW, Allan: I think the reason for Ann's sarcasm may have been that you repeated her words back to her and it sounded a bit sarcastic: "By any chance, are you marketing this product? WORTH A TRY ?? I WOULD SAY SO!!" But for every article you find, I can find one that says the opposite and was published in a more reputable source. When I first moved to Atlanta, GSE was all the rage, so I tried it. It didn't do a thing for me and now almost no one around here buys it anymore. Author: Bernstein CK, Deng C, Shuklah R, et al. Date: 3/0 Journal: American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology (AAAAI) 57th Annual Meeting. Despite the virtual absence of controlled clinical studies, a variety of herbal supplements are marketed as effective for treatment of SAR and asthma. Polyphenolic bioflavanoids are natural constituents of grapeseed extract, apple, tea, and quercitin (citrus and buckwheat), which possess anti-oxidant properties. Some of these compounds (e.g., epitcatechin) are touted as having anti-allergic properties. The aims of this study were twofold: 1) to determine the clinical efficacy and safety of the dietary supplement, grapeseed extract (GSE), compared to placebo for prevention of symptoms of seasonal allergic rhinitis; and 2) to adapt placebo-controlled study designs commonly used in clinical drug trials to the objective evaluation of herbal supplements for SAR. Pts. were randomly assigned to 8 wks. of treatment with either GSE (n=25) 100 mg. bid or placebo matched capsules (n=24) beginning 2-4 weeks before the onset of ragweed pollination. Patients were evaluated via daily symptom diary cards, Rhino-conjunctivitis Quality of Life Questionnaire (RQOL), global evaluations of treatment on the final visit, and requirement for rescue antihistamines. No significant differences were detected between GSE and placebo treated groups in symptom diary scores, rescue antihistamine, RQOL scores or peripheral eosinophil counts. There were no significant differences between the two treatment groups in reported adverse events. In conclusion, there was no trend supporting the efficacy of grapeseed extract in the treatment of SAR. This is a rare example in which a rigorous study design was applied to the evaluation of an herbal remedy which has been promoted as being effective in treating allergic disorders. Joy Well, the pycogenol studies were at pubmed and although the two have slightly different make ups (pine bark & grape seed), perhaps this will work for some people but not others. You say it was rejected. Rejected by who? You? Are you the last word here? Jack says he's a believer. I'd like to know if it helped his asthma. Some people need advair where others can use less controversial asthma meds. What works for one person doesn't necessarily mean it *will* or *won't* work for another person. ASthma is a very strange disease in the way it strikes people. Some as children, others in their 40s and any number of triggers are in play. I just read it's become an epidemic now in Bermuda. Why is that all of a sudden? Rae | But for every article you find, I can find one that says the opposite and | was published in a more reputable source. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] | | Joy > You say it was rejected. Rejected by who? You? Are you the last word here? Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology (AAAAI) Apparently they didn't review the pubmed studies. > Apparently they didn't review the pubmed studies. List your links. There is a new theory that antioxidants are involved in the development of asthma - not proven, but it may mean we should all stay away from them. It just goes to my theory that when it comes to asthma, nothing is certain. Med Hypotheses. 2005;64(5):973-7. Related Articles, Links Antioxidants may increase the probability of developing allergic diseases and asthma. Murr C, Schroecksnadel K, Winkler C, Ledochowski M, Fuchs D. Department of Molecular Cell Biology, Institute for Medical Chemistry and Biochemistry, Innsbruck Medical University, Fritz Pregl Strasse 3, A-6020 Innsbruck, Austria. In addition to genetic predisposition, a lack of triggers for Th1 immune response like exposure to infections, endotoxins and dirt in childhood are supposed to be responsible for the higher incidence of allergic rhinitis and asthma (hygiene hypothesis). In vitro, beverages rich in antioxidants like green tea and wine were found to suppress formation of Th1-type cytokine interferon-gamma. Due to the existing cross-regulatory interplay between Th1- and Th2-type immune response, these beverages may thus slow-down Th1-type immune response and thereby favour an over-production of Th2-type cytokines. Also food rich in antioxidants may increase the risk of atopic disease. Thus, not only a lack of triggers for Th1 type immune response, but also a nutrition rich in antioxidants suppressing interferon-gamma would result in a persistence of Th2-type immune response and increase the susceptibility for allergic reactions and asthma. In addition to improved hygienic standards in the past decades, also social changes including the availability of functional food and food enriched in antioxidants may have increased the prevalence of atopic diseases in Western countries. PMID: 15780494 [PubMed - in process] > > Apparently they didn't review the pubmed studies. > > List your links. There is a new theory that antioxidants are involved in the > development of asthma - not proven, but it may mean we should all stay away > from them. It just goes to my theory that when it comes to asthma, nothing > is certain. Ok no links. Go to Pubmed and run "asthma" and "grape seed". See what you get. Joy Conversely, look up Jacques Masquelier in your search engine. His work evaluated for more than forty years. Mostly in France (Where they have univercities too) Thanks Jack, but still no hits. If I just do the author last name, I get a bunch of HIV hits. > Conversely, look up Jacques Masquelier in your search engine. His work > evaluated for more than forty years. Mostly in France (Where they have > univercities too) Ok, I have found his thirty articles. Some are about the antibiotic properties of wine! Nothing is really specific to asthma............I sure expected to some study though based on the opening line in the AAAAI article. Joy >I did that search and one of the first sites that came up posted >this info > below: > > Question: Did it help with your asthma (if you have asthma). Rae, I'm sure Jack will weigh in with a reply to your question, but I thought you'd be interested in this small study with pediatric asthma done last year: J Asthma. 2004;41(8):825-32. Related Articles, Links Pycnogenol as an adjunct in the management of childhood asthma. Lau BH, Riesen SK, Truong KP, Lau EW, Rohdewald P, Barreta RA. Division of Microbiology and Molecular Genetics, Department of Biochemistry and Microbiology, School of Medicine, Loma Linda University, Loma Linda, California 92350, USA. bLau@som.llu.edu A randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind study involving 60 subjects, aged 6-18 years old, was conducted over a period of 3 months to determine the effect of Pycnogenol (a proprietary mixture of water-soluble bioflavonoids extracted from French maritime pine) on mild-to-moderate asthma. After baseline evaluation, subjects were randomized into two groups to receive either Pycnogenol or placebo. Subjects were instructed to record their peak expiratory flow with an Assess Peak Flow Meter each evening. At the same time, symptoms, daily use of rescue inhalers (albuterol), and any changes in oral medications were also recorded. Urine samples were obtained from the subjects at the end of the run-in period, and at 1-, 2-, and 3-month visits. Urinary leukotriene C4/D4/E4 was measured by an enzyme immunoassay. Compared with subjects taking placebo, the group who took Pycnogenol had significantly more improvement in pulmonary functions and asthma symptoms. The Pycnogenol group was able to reduce or discontinue their use of rescue inhalers more often than the placebo group. There was also a significant reduction of urinary leukotrienes in the Pycnogenol group. The results of this study demonstrate the efficacy of Pycnogenol as an adjunct in the management of mild-to-moderate childhood asthma. >>I got some of this some time ago > > What - pycnogenol or the paranoid greeting? Well, I wasn't so paranoid or self-righteous that I called her an atheist. >>>I got some of this some time ago >> >> What - pycnogenol or the paranoid greeting? > > Well, I wasn't so paranoid or self-righteous that I called her > an atheist. FYI, I never called anyone an atheist, so don't accuse me of doing so. I posed a tongue in cheek question that you chose to blow wildly out of proportion and continue to hang onto, despite the fact that you admitted yourself that your behavior was bad, which was all I was trying to point out. The fact that you apologized to Rae and admitted your behavior was bad just proves I was right in saying that some of you are too quick with the "guilty until proven innocent" thing. My question wasn't the worst thing said in that thread, but if you need to make it sound like some egregious offense and hang onto it as a way to validate your anger, then do that. This may come as a shock to you, but I have more important things to worry about these days. I'm sure you're right though. Ann probably works in the vitamins/supplements aisle at Walgreens where they sell this stuff and is going to spam the newsgroups in the weeks to come. >FYI, I never called anyone an atheist, so don't accuse me of >doing so. I posed a tongue in cheek question that you chose to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I was right in saying that some of you are too quick with the >"guilty until proven innocent" thing. I was accusatory of Rae, and rightly apologized for it, but I didn't accuse Ann of anything; I just asked a legitimate question: If she had any connection with marketing the product. Don't you think that it matters? How about the drug company person who showed up here a few months back trying to get "articulate" folks to shill for her company? > My question wasn't the >worst thing said in that thread, but if you need to make it sound >like some egregious offense and hang onto it as a way to >validate your anger, then do that. I wasn't the only one who thought that the question was impertinent. I have too much fun to "validate anger", but thanks for the nineties-style pop psychology. >This may come as a shock to >you, but I have more important things to worry about these days. I know that you do, and for that I am sorry. >I'm sure you're right though. Ann probably works in the >vitamins/supplements aisle at Walgreens where they sell this >stuff and is going to spam the newsgroups in the weeks to come. If this were true, would you mind or not? > I was accusatory of Rae, and rightly apologized for it, but I > didn't [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > months back trying to get "articulate" folks to shill for her > company? I think what matters more is that the "regulars" here stop the practice of guilty until THEY decide a person is innocent. I don't recall the post to which you refer, probably because I didn't do much online (or much of anything) from early February until the past month or so. However, it sounds like it was pretty much a cut and dry shill, unlike people who simply post about supplements that anyone could buy at any grocery or drug store. The thing you all missed in Rae's very first post, was that while she pointed to one site for more information, she added that you could buy the stuff at any health food store. Pycnogenol is like milk. I could pick it up at a dozen places in my town alone, so spamming for profit on something so readily available isn't a thought that should even cross ones mind. > I wasn't the only one who thought that the question was > impertinent. Then two or more of you are blowing my question way out of proportion. I > have too much fun to "validate anger", but thanks for the > nineties-style pop psychology. You're welcome. Thanks for the laugh of your use of such a trite phrase. >>This may come as a shock to >>you, but I have more important things to worry about these >>days. > > I know that you do, and for that I am sorry. You may be sincere, but somewhere along the way, I've forgotten that. >>I'm sure you're right though. Ann probably works in the >>vitamins/supplements aisle at Walgreens where they sell this >>stuff and is going to spam the newsgroups in the weeks to come. > > If this were true, would you mind or not? That's a silly response to a silly response. Why not cool your jets and see where people are coming from before the knee jerks? Why is that so unreasonable to you? > I think what matters more is that the "regulars" here stop the > practice of guilty until THEY decide a person is innocent. No, some of the regulars here would like some of the other regulars here to stop being so angry about the past. Your denials don't ring true to me. Sorry. See below. > I don't recall the post to which you refer, probably because I > didn't do much online (or much of anything) from early February [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > my town alone, so spamming for profit on something so readily > available isn't a thought that should even cross ones mind. And this is about her 10th altmed post about things we have discussed in the past and rejected I should add. And today it is Grape Seed Extract!!!! > > I wasn't the only one who thought that the question was > > impertinent. > > Then two or more of you are blowing my question way out of > proportion. Oh, I don't think so. You made no attempt to get back to normal with me, instead using your chance up proving that you are angry by telling me off yet again. And there isn't any reason for it at this point. Do you want an apology? Maybe you don't understand how you are coming across. > > have too much fun to "validate anger", but thanks for the > > nineties-style pop psychology. > > You're welcome. Thanks for the laugh of your use of such a trite > phrase. I give up. You think this is going to improve the situation? Joy Joy, Excuse me for butting into what seems to be a personal conversation but I don't think I've posted 10 new alternatives here. I brought up the yamoa and the cellfood. I've had a lot of posts maybe, but not about other alternative remedies. Oh and there may have been a post about some nasal spray (which I don't think was mentioned before). Okay, so shoot me! And as far as I know, the yamoa was never brought up before I posted it. Please correct me if I'm wrong. proanthocyanidins (also called leukoanthocyanidins) are a class of natural polyphenolic bioflavonoids that are very widespread in nature. They are found in many plant sources, like certain pine bark , grape seed , wine, cranberries , and the leaves of bilberry , birch, ginkgo and hawthorn . Rae | And this is about her 10th altmed post about things we have discussed in the | past and rejected I should add. And today it is Grape Seed Extract!!!! [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] | | Joy > Joy, > Excuse me for butting into what seems to be a personal conversation but I [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Rae And Green Tea,Water and B* breathing and metabolic typing and MSM and Pycnogenol in addition to Cellfood and Yamoa, so my mistake, it is only 8. But that isn't the point. The point is, you should play devil's advocate and find the studies that refute the claim you are about to make, not post if you then find a supplement can't be defended, and then you will make a positive impression. Like this. Murr C, Schroecksnadel K, Winkler C, Ledochowski M, Fuchs D. Antioxidants may increase the probability of developing allergic diseases and asthma. Med Hypotheses. 2005;64(5):973-7. PMID: 15780494 [PubMed - in process] 2: Shirai T, Reshad K, Yoshitomi A, Chida K, Nakamura H, Taniguchi M. Green tea-induced asthma: relationship between immunological reactivity, specific and non-specific bronchial responsiveness. Clin Exp Allergy. 2003 Sep;33(9):1252-5. PMID: 12956747 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 3: Shirai T, Sato A, Chida K, Hayakawa H, Akiyama J, Iwata M, Taniguchi M, Reshad K, Hara Y. Articles, Links Epigallocatechin gallate-induced histamine release in patients with green tea-induced asthma. Ann Allergy Asthma Immunol. 1997 Jul;79(1):65-9. PMID: 9236503 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 4: Shirai T, Sato A, Hara Y. Articles, Links Epigallocatechin gallate. The major causative agent of green tea-induced asthma. Chest. 1994 Dec;106(6):1801-5. PMID: 7988204 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Joy A lot of those posts were not about possible asthma remedies. Just health related stuff. I don't think I posted the topic about B* breathing. If I did, it must have been when I was having my grape seed extract the old fashioned way, by the glass. Rae | > Joy, | > Excuse me for butting into what seems to be a personal conversation but I [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] | | Joy > A lot of those posts were not about possible asthma remedies. Just health > related stuff. I don't think I posted the topic about B* breathing. If I > did, it must have been when I was having my grape seed extract the old > fashioned way, by the glass. > > Rae And so you did if you look back, and I am really happy to discuss the OTHER B* cures if you would like, but if you can't recall what you posted, I am at a loss to project the outcome. Who do you think the "clutter" comment applied to????? Joy Oh you mean the Buteyko technique. Okay, so what's wrong with that? I was curious if anyone here had tried it? And I did not post anything about MSM. You've got that one mixed up with someone else. I don't think I even inquired about it. Now this is getting tiresome. Maybe you have nothing better to do than make a list of my posts but I have better things to do than defend why I posted them. It's a free country. (last i heard) Myabe someone else might be interested in some of the posts even if you aren't. Not to be rude, but if you have something more meaningful or informative to say, then talk to me. Rae | > A lot of those posts were not about possible asthma remedies. Just health | > related stuff. I don't think I posted the topic about B* breathing. If I [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] | | Joy I have better things to do than defend why I posted > them. It's a free country. (last i heard) Myabe someone else might be > interested in some of the posts even if you aren't. It may be a free country, and you certainly are entitled to post what you want, just as I am entitled to post that your posts are "clutter", pure and simple. It isn't beyond belief that at some point, after dozens of suggestions, you *might* actually fall on something of use. But try and check things out because at this rate, you are wasting everyone's time. Joy > | > A lot of those posts were not about possible asthma remedies. Just > health [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > | > | Joy > Oh you mean the Buteyko technique. Okay, so what's wrong with that? > I > was curious if anyone here had tried it? Once again - please please please please please please discover the archives. This is such a tired subject. Everyone here is sick of it. > Now this is getting tiresome. Maybe you have nothing better to do > than make a list of my posts but I have better things to do than > defend why I posted them. I don't care about you defending them. I just wish you would remember them and admit to making them. > It's a free country. (last i heard) Myabe > someone else might be interested in some of the posts even if you > aren't. There are newsgroups full of interested people where they would be on topic. Why don't you assume that all interested parties are reading them and post there? > Not to be rude, but if you have something more meaningful or > informative to say, then talk to me. Not to be rude, but if you have something to say about asthma.........  Signature00doc > Not to be rude, but if you have something to say about asthma......... She is the typical altmed............. Joy > The fact that you > apologized to Rae and admitted your behavior was bad just proves > I was right in saying that some of you are too quick with the > "guilty until proven innocent" thing. Eh, actualy in that first post Rae said that she knew she sounded like an advertisement. So if we are giving final weight of law to self admissions then wouldn't that exhonerate everone who thought she might be selling something? > I'm sure you're right though. Ann probably works in the > vitamins/supplements aisle at Walgreens where they sell this > stuff and is going to spam the newsgroups in the weeks to come. He didn't express an opinion - just asked a question - so he can't possibly be right or wrong. Signature00doc >> The fact that you >> apologized to Rae and admitted your behavior was bad just [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > of law to self admissions then wouldn't that exhonerate everone > who thought she might be selling something? >> I'm sure you're right though. Ann probably works in the >> vitamins/supplements aisle at Walgreens where they sell this [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > He didn't express an opinion - just asked a question - so he > can't possibly be right or wrong. Good lord, you should have been a lawyer instead of a doctor. I think the babbling and giddiness of the cute, short one in your household has rubbed off on you.....lol. No, OOdoc would not have made a good lawyer. To be a good lawyer, you have to see all sides of a situation and argue either side passionately. Doc, has surgically implanted blinders attached to his head when it comes to alternative therapies such as herbs, vitamins, minerals, etc. and the public's right to free access to it as opposed to the pharmaceutical companies' opinion of it and their justifications for their synthetic meds, based upon their BS standards and tests to win support from the FDA who encourage their bad behavior. However he admits that he takes a dozen or so supps himself. He'd just like control over dispensing them to the rest of us and stop us from making our own decisions. Could he argue as passionately for the alternative health industry? Me thinks not. Those blinders just won't let him. Like most doctors, he keeps tripping over his own ego. They *need* to be needed. Heaven forbid people find an alternative by themselves, using their own little bitty minds which aren't nearly as "super human" as his. Believe someone here actually used that term "super human". Think maybe it was Bob - his biggest fan. Rae | Good lord, you should have been a lawyer instead of a doctor. I | think the babbling and giddiness of the cute, short one in your | household has rubbed off on you.....lol. > No, OOdoc would not have made a good lawyer. To be a good > lawyer, you have [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Rae I have to defend Doc here. He's open to things that are scientifically proven, and some supplements, etc. are just that. He could argue passionately for anything he believes in, and I think all he's trying to say to you is that you should research things in places where the research isn't conducted by the people whose pockets are being lined by sales. As with most of the drug research which if you look find in many if not most cases are funded by or have some related interest to a drug company "whose pockets are being lined by sales". | I think all he's trying to say to you is that you should research | things in places where the research isn't conducted by the people | whose pockets are being lined by sales. Okay for them but not the health companies? So far, the system for these alternatives has worked. Very few problems, no deaths, serious side affects or injuries. With all the drug tests that have been done for these prescripton drugs, you can't say the same. Rae > As with most of the drug research which if you look find in > many if not most > cases are funded by or have some related interest to a drug > company "whose > pockets are being lined by sales". I hate the pharmaceutical industry, BUT, there's a multi-level approval process that exists, which doesn't exist for vitamins and supplements. > Okay for them but not the health companies? > > So far, the system for these alternatives has worked. Very few > problems, no > deaths, serious side affects or injuries. How woud you know? Rae" <RaekaC...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news :IMadnTMkhJ9kFkPfRVn-vQ@adelphia.com... >> As with most of the drug research which if you look find in >> many if not most >> cases are funded by or have some related interest to a drug >> company "whose >> pockets are being lined by sales". > I hate the pharmaceutical industry, BUT, there's a multi-level >approval process that exists, which doesn't exist for vitamins >and supplements. I agree. If left to itself, I am sure that the pharma industry would be even worse. I do appreciate the oversight and approval process that exists--not the pharma guys themselves. >> Okay for them but not the health companies? >> So far, the system for these alternatives has worked. Very few >> problems, no >> deaths, serious side affects or injuries. > How woud you know? Excellent point. That's why a mechanism needs to be in place to ensure that supplements have the purity and content as promised. I've heard it said that such regulation would "raise prices", but if you're not already getting what you're paying for in content, then you're already overpaying. . >>I agree. >>Excellent point. Now see how easy that is, ARoberts? If you'll go home and practice that a bit more, you and I will never ever have another little tiff. (insert emoticon with 1/2" of hair, batting eyelids with few eyelashes here....) >>I agree. >>Excellent point. >Now see how easy that is, ARoberts? If you'll go home and >practice that a bit more, you and I will never ever have another >little tiff. (insert emoticon with 1/2" of hair, batting >eyelids with few eyelashes here....) To quote Bogey: "...I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship..." Good job. I knew you could do it. > . > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > little tiff. (insert emoticon with 1/2" of hair, batting > eyelids with few eyelashes here....) > Good job. I knew you could do it. What a ridiculous statement. You continue to target me despite my email request asking you to back off and give me some space, because your rants on here toward me have been very upsetting - and I cannot afford to feel stress at this point. If I have a relapse, I'm looking at a stem cell transplant and a 25% chance of survival. What part of this do you not understand, that you keep making my posts to others about YOU? I feel sorry for you, Joy, because you're obviously going through some emotional upheaval, but for my own sake, I'm blocking you. >> . >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> little tiff. (insert emoticon with 1/2" of hair, batting >> eyelids with few eyelashes here....) > > Good job. I knew you could do it. > > What a ridiculous statement. (Sigh). You just don't get it, do you? Joy > I hate the pharmaceutical industry, For the record - so do I. The system for researching and approving drugs is highly flawed and corrupt. But at least there is a system. Signature00doc "Pycnagenol" what you get at the hellfood store, is the formula propagated by Horphag in this country (the USA). And the Horphag name is somewhere on the label. Horphag used to distribute for the French outfit (Masquelier) here and apparently they took over the store. The two sides in court for ever so long. To get the "real stuff" you must order by mail. Several companies here do it. Dr Jacques Masquelier's picture ---he is a bio chemist formerly with the University of Bordeaux--- His picture, is on every bottle of the genuine article. Disingenuous scientists in the English speaking world act like this (OPCs) is something new. Well it ain't. Almost as old as Methedrine---Jack >Pycnagenol" what you get at the hellfood store, I see that you've visited my local market... > >Pycnagenol" what you get at the hellfood store, > > I see that you've visited my local market... I never laugh at typo's, but this is too funny to resist.............. >Pycnagenol" what you get at the hellfood store, is the formula >propagated by Horphag in this country (the USA). >And the Horphag name is somewhere on the label. >Horphag used to distribute for the French outfit (Masquelier) here and >apparently they took over the store. >The two sides in court for ever so long. >To get the "real stuff" you must order by mail. Several companies here >do it. Dr Jacques Masquelier's picture ---he is a bio chemist formerly >with the University of Bordeaux--- His picture, is on every bottle of >the genuine article. >Disingenuous scientists in the English speaking world act like this >(OPCs) is something new. Well it ain't. Almost as old as >Methedrine---Jack Thanks for the post. Here is a link that refers to that: http://www.masquelier.us/ > Thanks for the post. Here is a link that refers to that: > > http://www.masquelier.us/ Do you have a financial interest in the site? <snicker snicker snicker> Signature00doc >> Thanks for the post. Here is a link that refers to that: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > <snicker snicker snicker> LOL - I'm sure ARoberts will get a kick out of this post, too. >> Thanks for the post. Here is a link that refers to that: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > <snicker snicker snicker> Just as soon as I unload this garage full of yamoa.... Hey, the yamoa worked! After twenty years of runny eyes and nose, its GONE completely! What I paid for the yamoa, I've saved in kleenex. And the asthma has improved about 90%. I still feel a little tightening when I get around a LOT of dust mite but everywhere else, the asthma is gone too. Even tho my aroebics instructor tried to kill me yesterday, I did it without an inhaler. So don't be so quick to throw out that yamoa! Rae | >> Thanks for the post. Here is a link that refers to that: | >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] | | Just as soon as I unload this garage full of yamoa.... Thanks Roberts for the link. This is one I haven't seen. BTW "Flavay" is only one of the legitimate brands. That is, they don't have an exclusive concession to market the Masquelier product. You can send to France if you want. (But it won't save you any money) ---Jack > "Pycnagenol" what you get at the hellfood store, is the > formula [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > (OPCs) is something new. Well it ain't. Almost as old as > Methedrine---Jack Interesting stuff, Jack. Thanks for posting this. I don't take pycnogenol, I'm more of a CoQ10 gal myself, but this is good to know. >Could he argue as passionately for the alternative health industry? Me >thinks not. Those blinders just won't let him. Like most doctors, he keeps [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Rae For a lawyer, you sure have trouble getting your facts straight. What I said was he has diagnostic abilities far beyond those of mortal men... Name me a specialty that is more qualified to diagnose than an internist, please. Evidently you are content with no doctor. Sort of like attorneys? You don't want one until you need one? Am I his biggest fan? Maybe, since I weigh about 250 lbs. But again, you are just a bit off. We have gone around the block before, and may do so again, if he's got it coming... > However he admits that he takes a dozen or so supps himself. Huh? When did I do this? There are probably about a dozen supplements that I routinely recommend to patients. But since I don't have most of the things they have I don't take nearly 12. > He'd > just like control over dispensing them to the rest of us and stop us > from making our own decisions. No. I never said that and don't think it. > Could he argue as passionately for the alternative health industry? I think I have argued in favor of some things that have been proved to work. I also argue against common medical practices that have no evidence to support them. It just so happens that those arguments don't come up much in an asthma newsgroup. So, you see, I have argued both for and against varuious elements on each side of the alternative and conventional medicine isle. Have you? > Like most doctors, he > keeps tripping over his own ego. Once again - the tactic of people with no arugment. When all else fails call the person arrogant and storm away. After all - anyone who does nto agree with you must be arrogant. What other explanation for not being persuaded by your arguments (if you ever actually get around to offering one) could there be? > They *need* to be needed. Heaven > forbid people find an alternative by themselves, using their own > little bitty minds which aren't nearly as "super human" as his. Not at all. The problem is that as soon as one of the alternative meds is proved to work it is adopted by docs and becomes conventional. Then the alts disavow it and get back to discussing their little conspiracy theories. > Believe someone here actually used that term "super human". Think > maybe it was Bob - his biggest fan. Funny that. Bob is a chiropractor and so by most accounts an alternative medicine practitioner. Yet he is OK with me and I am OK with him and I think there is a fair bit of mutual respect. That is kind of hard to reconcile with what you are claiming. Signature00doc >>> I got some of this some time ago >> >> What - pycnogenol or the paranoid greeting? > > Well, I wasn't so paranoid or self-righteous that I called her an > atheist. I thought your response was rather reserved and polite. You seemd to be careful to ask rather than acuse. Is asking a proponent of the treatment about their biases, especially financial ones, such a taboo question now? Signature00doc >>>> I got some of this some time ago >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > proponent of the treatment about their biases, especially > financial ones, such a taboo question now? Asking someone if they're hawking pycnogenol is like asking someone if they're hawking vitamin C. It's like water. Nobody is going to spam newsgroups for something you can get in a dozen places locally, and it just gets back to the typical knee jerk respone to everyone posting about a supplement. Asking the question is offensive, or didn't you read Ann's reply? (and sorry - even if you wouldn't find it offensive, doesn't mean others wouldn't.....as I said, the original poster obviously thought the question unneccessary, as well) I know - you probably long for the old days when people would pile on with a dozen posts of "snake oil" and "scum". ;-P >Asking someone if they're hawking pycnogenol is like asking >someone if they're hawking vitamin C. It's like water. First it's like milk. Now it's like water. I'm waiting for it to be like air. Then it'll be free... No Bob, then it'll be polluted and triggering asthma attacks. (Maybe one day we'll have to buy the air we breath like some places have to buy their water. Then we can fill our bubble houses up with it so we can all survive on this toxic planet.) | First it's like milk. Now it's like water. I'm waiting for it to be | like air. Then it'll be free... >No Bob, then it'll be polluted and triggering asthma attacks. Well, it is that. However, just think how much worse the air would be if it were not regulated to some degree. (Needs more regulation, IMO.) Emerging third world countries like China are good examples of having horrible air, largely unregulated. >(Maybe one day we'll have to buy the air we breath like some places have to >buy their water. Then we can fill our bubble houses up with it so we can all >survive on this toxic planet.) Perhaps, but which bottled air would you prefer? The government regulated purified air or the unregulated whatever purified air? I know, the MLM purified air! Then you could get your air for free! Well it may all be moot in any case since China is now threatening to blow us off the planet. |China are good examples of | having horrible air, largely unregulated. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] | | I know, the MLM purified air! Then you could get your air for free! | >No Bob, then it'll be polluted and triggering asthma attacks. | | Well, it is that. However, just think how much worse the air would be | if it were not regulated to some degree. (Needs more regulation, | IMO.) Definately needs more regulation. They relaxed those regulations significantly when a certain president took office. Not mentioning any names here after that last nasty episode..... Emerging third world countries like China are good examples of | having horrible air, largely unregulated. | [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | Perhaps, but which bottled air would you prefer? The government | regulated purified air or the unregulated whatever purified air? As long as I didn't have to go get a prescription for it, I guess the 'tested' (regulated) air if I couldn't get it from a source I trusted. But then maybe I couldn't afford it. And if those regulating it had some financial interests involved, what good would the regulation/testing be anyways?? Our air is supposed to be regulated now. Since that certain someone took office I spoke about earlier, a certain factory here where I live who *had* been shut down for allowing asbestos particles into the air has since been allowed to reopen without changes in their pollution/ emissions controls. We are now back to getting a chest full of asbestos filled air. And no one is doing anything about it. | I know, the MLM purified air! Then you could get your air for free! >Our air is supposed to be regulated now. Since that certain someone took >office I spoke about earlier, a certain factory here where I live who *had* >been shut down for allowing asbestos particles into the air has since been >allowed to reopen without changes in their pollution/ emissions controls. We >are now back to getting a chest full of asbestos filled air. And no one is >doing anything about it. If you know this for a fact, and if you can prove that aspestos is being pumped in the air, and if you are significantly motivated to do something about it, you could. Of course, you could also involve the media, especially the national media. If you need help, I will help you. Email me with the particulars once you have done your due diligence? But you must have your facts correct in order to proceed. Ok? This is the story related to me by the locals here. One young lady now in her late 20s and a new mother, got cancer at the age of 16 and her family has no history of cancer. They are convinced it is because of that factory because there is a high incident of cancer in young people who live here since it began. If I could find out anything that would help, I would gladly pass it on to anyone who would/could help. Maybe I will ask her to email you if she is willing. She knows far more about it than I do. Rae | >Our air is supposed to be regulated now. Since that certain someone took | >office I spoke about earlier, a certain factory here where I live who *had* [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] | diligence? But you must have your facts correct in order to proceed. | Ok? http://www.mesotheliomacenter.org/news/2003-05-25.php (Formerly Abex) still up and running signed, anon - (Not from Dekalb) This thread seems to be the current winner! Maybe folks will see the "pycnagenol" word and remember this is the label of the snake-oil version of something that just might be worthwhile. I hope so. As far as asbestos goes this is a criminal conspiracy goes back to before the First World War. Search Johns-Manville. (Yeah, Tommy Manville should have gone to prison, where he could have continued getting married---but to boys.) >> Asking someone if they're hawking pycnogenol is like asking >> someone if they're hawking vitamin C. It's like water. > > First it's like milk. Now it's like water. I'm waiting for it to > be > like air. Then it'll be free... Maybe its just a little like making love in a canoe. Signature00doc Sorry - I just listened to an audiobook read by Eric Idle and I'm on a bit of a Monty Python thing at the moment. Then it'll be free... I've been waiting for free air for the last 10 years! That would be great! Joy > Asking someone if they're hawking pycnogenol is like asking > someone if they're hawking vitamin C. It's like water. Nobody > is going to spam newsgroups for something you can get in a dozen > places locally, I don;t know about that. I see people hawking stuff that is available at the local GNC. They usually just try to convince you that THEIR version si somehow better or cheaper or more convenient etc etc. > and it just gets back to the typical knee jerk > respone to everyone posting about a supplement. Asking the > question is offensive, or didn't you read Ann's reply? (and > sorry - even if you wouldn't find it offensive, doesn't mean > others wouldn't.....as I said, the original poster obviously > thought the question unneccessary, as well) Well, sure. The one getting grilled always thinks it is uneccessary. I still think that most people with nothing to hide would be glad to just say "no" and move on. ......and nobody expects the Spanish Inquision! Signature00doc Which is pretty much what Jack is saying about the pycnogenol. They have him convinced that only one pycnogenol mfg. is reliable. He wrote: "To get the "real stuff" you must order by mail. Several companies here do it. Dr Jacques Masquelier's picture ---he is a bio chemist formerly with the University of Bordeaux--- His picture, is on every bottle of the genuine article. " However, it's the same stuff you can get at a lot of other sources (for less $$) Go to Jacques Masquelier's site and he tries to convince/scare everyone that only his is genuine and works. The 3 pubmed articles did not reference his particular line if I remember correctly. So that refutes Masquelier's claims. Rae | I don;t know about that. I see people hawking stuff that is available | at the local GNC. They usually just try to convince you that THEIR | version si somehow better or cheaper or more convenient etc etc. > I got some of this some time ago and will be trying it soon and will > let you know my own results. Apparently its good for a lot of > conditions. Why don't you just save us all some time and list the alternative therapies you haven't or don't plan to try and don't think will be effective? Signature00doc |
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