Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Asthma / June 2005
Buteyko
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Rae - 18 Jun 2005 19:13 GMT Below are the results of 4 clinical studies on Buteyko breathing technique: (Taken from NCBI (National Library of Medicine))
Wondering if anyone here has tried this.
A clinical trial of the Buteyko Breathing Technique in asthma as taught by a video.
Opat AJ, Cohen MM, Bailey MJ, Abramson MJ.
Department of Epidemiology and Preventive Medicine, Monash Medical School, Alfred Hospital, Prahan, Vic, Australia.
The Buteyko Breathing Technique (BBT) is promoted as a drug-free asthma therapy. It is based on the premise that raising blood PaCO2 through hypoventilation can treat asthma. Our study was designed to examine whether the Buteyko Breathing Technique, as taught by a video, is an efficacious asthma therapy. Thirty-six adult subjects with mild to moderate asthma were randomized to receive either a BBT or placebo video to watch at home twice per day for 4 weeks. Asthma-related quality of life, peak expiratory flow (PEF), symptoms, and asthma medication intake were assessed both before and after intervention. Our results demonstrated a significant improvement in quality of life among those assigned to the BBT compared with placebo (p = 0.043), as well as a significant reduction in inhaled bronchodilator intake (p = 0.008). We conclude that the BBT may be effective in improving the quality of life and reducing the intake of inhaled reliever medication in patients with asthma. These results warrant further investigation.
Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial
PMID: 11059522 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Effect of two breathing exercises (Buteyko and pranayama) in asthma: a randomised controlled trial.
Cooper S, Oborne J, Newton S, Harrison V, Thompson Coon J, Lewis S, Tattersfield A.
Division of Respiratory Medicine, City Hospital, Nottingham NG5 1PB, UK. sue.cooper@nottingham.ac.uk
BACKGROUND: Patients with asthma are interested in the use of breathing exercises but their role is uncertain. The effects of the Buteyko breathing technique, a device which mimics pranayama (a yoga breathing technique), and a dummy pranayama device on bronchial responsiveness and symptoms were compared over 6 months in a parallel group study. METHODS: Ninety patients with asthma taking an inhaled corticosteroid were randomised after a 2 week run in period to Eucapnic Buteyko breathing, use of a Pink City Lung Exerciser (PCLE) to mimic pranayama, or a PCLE placebo device. Subjects practised the techniques at home twice daily for 6 months followed by an optional steroid reduction phase. Primary outcome measures were symptom scores and change in the dose of methacholine provoking a 20% fall in FEV(1) (PD(20)) during the first 6 months. RESULTS: Sixty nine patients (78%) completed the study. There was no significant difference in PD(20) between the three groups at 3 or 6 months. Symptoms remained relatively stable in the PCLE and placebo groups but were reduced in the Buteyko group. Median change in symptom scores at 6 months was 0 (interquartile range -1 to 1) in the placebo group, -1 (-2 to 0.75) in the PCLE group, and -3 (-4 to 0) in the Buteyko group (p=0.003 for difference between groups). Bronchodilator use was reduced in the Buteyko group by two puffs/day at 6 months; there was no change in the other two groups (p=0.005). No difference was seen between the groups in FEV(1), exacerbations, or ability to reduce inhaled corticosteroids. CONCLUSION: The Buteyko breathing technique can improve symptoms and reduce bronchodilator use but does not appear to change bronchial responsiveness or lung function in patients with asthma. No benefit was shown for the Pink City Lung Exerciser.
Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial
PMID: 12885982 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Buteyko breathing techniques in asthma: a blinded randomised controlled trial.
Bowler SD, Green A, Mitchell CA.
Mater Adult Hospital, South Brisbane, QLD. sbowler@mater.org.au
OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the effect of Buteyko breathing techniques (BBT) in the management of asthma. DESIGN: Prospective, blinded, randomised study comparing the effect of BBT with control classes in 39 subjects with asthma. The study was conducted from January 1995 to April 1995. PARTICIPANTS AND SETTING: Subjects recruited from the community, aged 12 to 70 years, with asthma and substantial medication use. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Medication use; morning peak expiratory flow (PEF); forced expiratory volume in one second (FEV1); end-tidal (ET) CO2; resting minute volume (MV); and quality of life (QOL) score, measured at three months. RESULTS: No change in daily PEF or FEV1 was noted in either group. At three months, the BBT group had a median reduction in daily beta 2-agonist dose of 904 micrograms (range, 29 micrograms to 3129 micrograms), whereas the control group had a median reduction of 57 micrograms (range, -2343 micrograms to 1143 micrograms) (P = 0.002). Daily inhaled steroid dose fell 49% (range, -100% to 150%) for the BBT group and 0 (range, -82% to +100%) for the control group (P = 0.06). A trend towards greater improvement in QOL score was noted for BBT subjects (P = 0.09). Initial MV was high and similar in both groups; by three months, MV was lower in the BBT group than in the control group (P = 0.004). ET CO2 was low in both groups and did not change with treatment. CONCLUSION: Those practising BBT reduced hyperventilation and their use of beta 2-agonists. A trend toward reduced inhaled steroid use and better quality of life was observed in these patients without objective changes in measures of airway calibre.
Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial
PMID: 9887897 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Buteyko Breathing Technique for asthma: an effective intervention.
McHugh P, Aitcheson F, Duncan B, Houghton F.
Emergency Department, Gisborne Hospital, Gisborne, New Zealand. mchugh@tdh.org.nz
AIM: To assess the impact of the Buteyko Breathing Technique (BBT) on medication use in asthma. METHODS: A blinded randomised controlled trial comparing BBT with control was conducted in 38 people with asthma aged between 18 and 70. Participants were followed for six months following the intervention. Medication use and indices of ventilatory function were recorded. RESULTS: No significant change in FEV1 (forced expiratory volume in one second) was recorded in either group. The BBT group exhibited a reduction in inhaled steroid use of 50% and beta2-agonist use of 85% at six months from baseline. In the control group inhaled steroid use was unchanged and beta2-agonist use was reduced by 37% from baseline. Investigator contact between the two groups was equal. There were no adverse events recorded in either group. CONCLUSIONS: BBT is a safe and efficacious asthma management technique. BBT has clinical and potential pharmaco-economic benefits that merit further study.
Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial
PMID: 14752538 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Joy - 18 Jun 2005 20:04 GMT You have an uncanny ability to locate the worst of the worst in asthma claims. You really should Google the group before you post about a topic. All this has been hashed out. And out. And out.
Joy
Rae - 18 Jun 2005 20:42 GMT Someone on another newsgroup is trying to decide whether to try this. There were not really any opposing views on it. I searched this newsgroup under the name and came up with nothing. If this has been hashed out, I would like to read it. The posts on my news reader only go back to may 9th.
Rae
> You have an uncanny ability to locate the worst of the worst in asthma > claims. You really should Google the group before you post about a topic. > All this has been hashed out. And out. And out. > > Joy Joy - 18 Jun 2005 22:04 GMT http://thorax.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/58/8/649
The Butekyo breathing technique, based on the barely tenable scientific premise that asthma is caused by hyperventilation, makes sweeping claims for effectiveness in asthma.3 In spite of anecdotal reports of benefit given wide coverage in the lay press, the limited scientific scrutiny currently afforded to this technique has indicated more modest improvements in asthma outcomes, with two small controlled studies showing some benefits in symptoms and bronchodilator use although little effect on other measures of asthma severity. A Cochrane review of breathing exercises for asthma4 (updated in 2000 and currently undergoing revision) found it was not possible to draw reliable conclusions on the effectiveness of breathing retraining from current published evidence.
Read on. The study concludes people use their rescue inhaler less frequently. Of course, that makes sense because the trainers tell you not to use your rescue inhaler. But there is no reduction in steroid use or improvement in lung function. In other words. NOT A CURE.
> Someone on another newsgroup is trying to decide whether to try this. There > were not really any opposing views on it. I searched this newsgroup under [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > > > Joy Joy - 18 Jun 2005 22:18 GMT http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.support.asthma/browse_frm/thread/60c0462 f28c6c678/bef6f3cbd852f3e1?q=buteyko&rnum=38&hl=en#bef6f3cbd852f3e1
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=b4a5e89e.0312310131.5 c5c4a9%40posting.google.com&rnum=19&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dkolb%26start%3D10%26hl%3D en%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dalt.support.asthma.*%26scoring%3Dd%26selm%3Db4 a5e89e.0312310131.5c5c4a9%2540posting.google.com%26rnum%3D19
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=l9BUb.226196%24I06.24 74988%40attbi_s01&rnum=17&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dkolb%26start%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D %26ie%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dalt.support.asthma.*%26scoring%3Dd%26selm%3Dl9BUb.226196 %2524I06.2474988%2540attbi_s01%26rnum%3D17
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=Nv7lc.1682%24a47.1073 %40newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net&rnum=13&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dkolb%26start%3D10 %26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dalt.support.asthma.*%26scoring%3Dd%26s elm%3DNv7lc.1682%2524a47.1073%2540newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net%26rnum%3D13
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=40807346.1311016%40ne ws.wn.com.au&rnum=16&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Db%2Bbreathing%26start%3D10%26hl%3Den%26l r%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dalt.support.asthma.*%26scoring%3Dd%26selm%3D40807346 .1311016%2540news.wn.com.au%26rnum%3D16
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=3b227dfa.0405071158.5 f446b24%40posting.google.com&rnum=11&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dkolb%26start%3D10%26hl%3 Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dalt.support.asthma.*%26scoring%3Dd%26selm%3D3 b227dfa.0405071158.5f446b24%2540posting.google.com%26rnum%3D11
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=o06mc0lju0sliho22akip pe8cqeeti3nps%404ax.com&prev=/groups%3Fnum%3D25%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%2 6group%3Dalt.support.asthma%26start%3D175
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=3b227dfa.0408050811.2 163fe32%40posting.google.com&prev=/groups%3Fnum%3D25%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%2 6ie%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dalt.support.asthma%26start%3D75
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Tell them to read the archives of this newsgroup. There are years and years of arguments.
Rae - 18 Jun 2005 20:58 GMT Okay, I got more headers and read more. If it's only a relaxation technique, I can do that with the yoga breathing. All those clinical studies on pubmed however seemed to suggest there was something to it. But if it doesn't help you get rid of what causes reactions to your allergies, then it would be of little value to me. Rae
> You have an uncanny ability to locate the worst of the worst in asthma > claims. You really should Google the group before you post about a topic. > All this has been hashed out. And out. And out. > > Joy NorthShoreCEO - 18 Jun 2005 21:21 GMT Rae, just a suggestion. You're finding some relief with yamoa, and you've added xylitol. Why keep searching or adding things to the mix? You won't know WHAT'S working if you do that. If you really feel yamoa is helping, why not wait and see where you're at in another month or so?
Honestly, though, the first thing you should do, is find a doctor who will work with you to prescribe the right rescue inhaler, and, if you use Primatene mist frequently, medication that will manage your allergies and asthma. You're putting yourself at more risk by using Primatene than you are by using prescription medication. And adding a lot of herbs/supplements may be doing more harm than good if you don't know how they interract with other drugs.
Rae - 19 Jun 2005 02:59 GMT Hi NorthShore:
The yamoa was working great and I was very pleased. But then I pushed the envelope yesterday and cleaned out some dusty bookshelves and opened an old computer to clean it of the internal computer dust. After a couple of hours of breathing that, my sinuses got irritated and I just got tired of washing with the Xylitol every half hour. Finally resorted to using the inhaler a couple of times. It's easier and quicker than trying to control it with the nasal wash and breathing. But I hate that I gave in to it.
I'm half way through the yamoa and hope it continues to improve but so far its been more effective outside in normal conditions. Getting into the dust was just too much I guess and that was one of my allegies. I'm not sure if I would have survived that without symptons even if I were on the pulmicort.
So, in the meantime, I just investigate everything that I hear about. I am not going to begin anything new until I've done the yamoa a full 60 days. And I may call my doctor about getting a rescue inhaler now that 00doc has explained the difference. Not sure if he'll do that though since he prescribed both in past.
Thanks for your input and helping when I was 'under attack'. I sure didn't know what I was walking into with the yamoa posts! I've seen this kind of behavior on other forums as well recently against other people who write about alternative therapies. I don't understand the hostility from those on medications.
I think if people don't keep demanding a cure and keeping the drug companies feet to the fire, they will never put the $$ into a *cure* instead of management and treatments.
There seems to be an attitude of complacency among many asthma sufferers which will not accomplish anything. After all, the squeeky wheel gets the oil.
Take care,
Rae
> Rae, just a suggestion. You're finding some relief with yamoa, and you've > added xylitol. Why keep searching or adding things to the mix? You won't [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > herbs/supplements may be doing more harm than good if you don't know how > they interract with other drugs. NorthShoreCEO - 19 Jun 2005 13:56 GMT > The yamoa was working great and I was very pleased. But then I > pushed the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > with the nasal wash and breathing. But I hate that I gave in to > it. Again, this makes no sense. First, get a 3D mask to wear when dealing with dust, and second, if you do something like this, then use a rescue inhaler to get through the immediate need for medication to get through it. In fact, since you have a dust allergy, nothing should ever get that dusty in the first place.
You hate giving in to medication, but you're looking for a quick fix via supplements, which isn't really going to happen and may be even more dangerous than a prescription med would be. I think some people have an unnatural fear of needing/taking a prescribed drug, and I don't understand why, since without it, you're putting yourself at risk. Once I found a doctor who worked with me to get the right combination of meds for me, my quality of life improved. It would probably have improved greatly, but given the cause for my asthma, drugs weren't as effective as they are for most people.
> I'm half way through the yamoa and hope it continues to improve > but so far its been more effective outside in normal > conditions. Getting into the dust was just too much I guess and > that was one of my allegies. I'm not sure if I would have > survived that without symptons even if I were on the pulmicort. Exactly, so why you would move on to find something that works better - when YOU need to work smarter, is confusing to me.
> So, in the meantime, I just investigate everything that I hear > about. I am not going to begin anything new until I've done the > yamoa a full 60 days. And I may call my doctor about getting a > rescue inhaler now that 00doc has explained the difference. Not > sure if he'll do that though since he prescribed both in past. Well, having suffered asthma for 33 years, I got so desperate I did the same, and can honestly tell you that I never found any relief using a supplement. I've found relief for other ailments using a supplement, but not for asthma. And I personally don't know anyone who did. I believe yamoa is helping you and I hope it continues to help you with your asthma, but you're probably on a wild goose chase investigating everything that's out there.
> Thanks for your input and helping when I was 'under attack'. No problem.
>I sure didn't know what I was walking into with the yamoa posts! >I've seen this kind of behavior on other forums as well recently >against other people who write about alternative therapies. I >don't understand the hostility from those on medications. If I say too much, I'll probably find myself being sniped at with some sarcastic mean-spirited remark again, which I not only don't deserve, I don't need, given my current health battle. Suffice it to say the last bout left me disappointed in people I had some regard for in the past, but at least you got one apology for bad behavior that I felt you deserved.
> I think if people don't keep demanding a cure and keeping the > drug companies feet to the fire, they will never put the $$ > into a *cure* instead of management and treatments. The way drug companies waste money makes me ill, but the politics involved are so huge that we won't see this change in my lifetime. Four out of five days a week, a drug rep brought lunch to the three story cancer center where I received treatment. That's one cancer center. A friend of mine who is an orthopaedic doctor told me his group gets courted for free lunches all the time and they refuse to take them. They waste billions of dollars every year, and don't seem to be accountable to anyone for their waste. I don't, however, think the answer is to turn our backs on prescribed meds in favor of over the counter meds or supplements. Remember, people are making BIG money off of those too, and they're not regulated.
00doc - 19 Jun 2005 16:48 GMT > The way drug companies waste money makes me ill, but the politics > involved are so huge that we won't see this change in my > lifetime. Four out of five days a week, a drug rep brought lunch > to the three story cancer center where I received treatment. The truth is that drug companies now spend twice as much on advertising as they do on R&D. I guess whether that is a waste depends on your point of view. They obviously believe that lunches translate into profits more than research. I'll bet they know what they are talking about.
Unfortunately, what most people do not understand is that drug companies are not in the business of inventing new drugs (partly because the companies try to foster this image themselves). Virtually all new innovation is done with government funds (largely through NIH research grants). What the drug companies do is identify prospects that have been discovered ro invented by academics and then take the final steps of developing them and doing the studies needed to get FDA approval and bring them to market. In the last twenty years there has not been a single major new drug brought to market that was invented by a drug company.
Personally, I rarely talk to the reps. Part of it is due to high minded ideals. I know that they are too good at what they do and I don't imagine myself to be that much more resistant to the disinformation than my colleagues so I chose just not to expose myself. Another part of it is that I find the experience unpleasant (and definately not worth a sandwich). Imagine having to deal with a car or insurance salesman over lunch every day. Ewwww.
Besides, bringing a sandwich to lunch or going across the street for a single slice of pizza is better for my waistline than the drug lunches.
I agree that there should be more regulation. The drug comapnies get a huge subsidy from society in the form of tax dollars doing their basic R&D for them so I think they owe more of a debt back to society than they currently pay. The problem is that you can't expect a group of corporations to pay attention to much more than the bottom line all by themselves - it has to come from the government.
- But that is not the direction things are headed.
 Signature 00doc
Rae - 19 Jun 2005 17:14 GMT This is true. There should be some sort of regulation put in place to curb that. That money could be used better. The doctors should be the ones deciding what medications may be helpful (assuming the doctor keeps up with the most current treatment available). Anyone who watches television in the evening can count how many different drug ads they will see in the space of an hour. Its unbelievable. And many tell you to "ask your doctor about".... Truth is, they want to get people sold on the medication before "asking their doctor" and to go in convinced they need or want that new wonder drug and pursuade their doctor to give it to them. This should NOT be the drug companies' role.
> The truth is that drug companies now spend twice as much on advertising as > they do on R&D. I guess whether that is a waste depends on your point of [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > - But that is not the direction things are headed. 00doc - 19 Jun 2005 18:17 GMT > This is true. There should be some sort of regulation put in place > to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > their doctor to give it to them. This should NOT be the drug > companies' role. They do it because they know that 50% or better of requests for specific meds are honored.
The part that gets me is that if a product is prescription then by definition the government has decided that its use is something that the general public cannot determine for themselves. So why allow advertising to them? There is precident for controlling advertisinfg when it is a matter of the public good (tobacco and alcohol).
Also, all the research shows that drug rep detailing does change physician prescribing in ways that are not consistent with logic, research, or good medicine. That is the biggest reason that I try to stay away from them. They are just too good and I don't delude myself into thinking I will win that game. So if the docs can't filter the stuff right the general public has no chance.
 Signature 00doc
Rae - 19 Jun 2005 18:46 GMT We finally agree on something 100%. You expressed it perfectly.
Pitty is, nothing will probably be done about it at least for a long time because the drug lobbyist are just too powerful to allow them to be what they would call "censored".
But as you say, tobbacco & liquor was finally stopped so maybe in time they will be too. I think however, their power is more far reaching than the other two industries. And speaking of the tobbacco industry, the big fine that they were recently hit with was suddenly mysteriously lowered. No explanation as of yet. When asked why, I think they said "they'd get back with them on that".. But everyone with a brain knows how and why. Tobbacco industry donates a lot of money to get this kind of protection.
Rae
>> This is true. There should be some sort of regulation put in place to >> curb that. That money could be used better. The doctors should be the [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > that game. So if the docs can't filter the stuff right the general public > has no chance. NorthShoreCEO - 19 Jun 2005 20:53 GMT Drug companies should not be allowed to advertise to patients - it does no good anyway. They should not be allowed to court doctors. There should be a cap on how much they're allowed to mark up the price of drugs - and that cap should not exceed 100%. Drugs are a necessity, not a luxury. There are other things they shouldn't be allowed to do, too many to mention.
Sounds like we not only enjoy the same videos (lol), but the same reading material:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375508465/104-6480561-2377547?v=glance
>> The way drug companies waste money makes me ill, but the >> politics [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > - But that is not the direction things are headed. 00doc - 19 Jun 2005 21:01 GMT > Sounds like we not only enjoy the same videos (lol), but the same > reading material: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375508465/104-6480561-2377547?v=glance I haven't read that one yet. I have seen reviews of it and would like to. I keep hoping Audible.com will offer it (I suggested it to them). The author used to be the editor of the NEJM.
NorthShoreCEO - 20 Jun 2005 13:51 GMT I've never heard of that site before, but just checked it out. Where do you d/l the books? I have a 512mb mp3 player, but it's not listed there.
I can honestly say I've never 'listened' to a book, and must be way behind the times on this, since everyone else I know finds it to be the best way to go.
>> Sounds like we not only enjoy the same videos (lol), but the >> same [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > suggested it to them). The author used to be the editor of the > NEJM. 00doc - 21 Jun 2005 02:58 GMT > I've never heard of that site before, but just checked it out. > Where do you d/l the books? I have a 512mb mp3 player, but it's > not listed there. Usuaully I download them to the computer and then burn them to CD. They use their own compression format that Windows media player and many MP3 players (including iPods) will play.
> I can honestly say I've never 'listened' to a book, and must be > way behind the times on this, since everyone else I know finds it > to be the best way to go. I only do it in a car. Audio books are more expensive and all things equal I would prefer to read the text. However, I hate morning radio and so it turns the driving time into not so much wasted time. At my old job I spent 6+ hours in the car each week so I was always looking for things to listen to. Now I may need to trethink things.
 Signature 00doc
Rae - 20 Jun 2005 14:24 GMT Life Extension magazine as well as other health publications often publish articles about the drug companies and their practices which is where we get most of our information.
I enjoy 'reading' the old fashioned way. Never tried audio books but think that might be nice in bed at night. Like having someone read you a bedtime story. :)
Rae
> Sounds like we not only enjoy the same videos (lol), but the same reading > material: [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] >> >> - But that is not the direction things are headed. Rae - 19 Jun 2005 17:32 GMT Don't I wish! In a perfect world that would be the case. But if I wanted to keep this place completely dust free, it would be my full time job. I live in a 105 year old Victorian house on an intersection in the heart of dowtown where there is a lot of construction going on. Just keeping the areas I am around most of the time, takes constant attention and cleaning and this was in a room I am not in a lot. I'm sure you weren't being judgmental in that remark but I felt a little like I had to defend my housekeeping! And computer dust... well how often can you take the time to take all of your computers apart for cleaning? I don't care if you have a full time staff of servents, let the computers go for a year or so and open them up and see what's inside!
You're right that I should have worn a mask though. But even then it would get into my system through my eyes wouldn't it? I guess if I wanted to really put the yamoa's affect to the test, I did and it didn't cut it. The dust is out of my system today though thank goodness and the dry constant cough is gone. I woke up feeling a lot better, again with no need for inhaler at waking and so far so good.
Rae
In fact, since you have a dust
> allergy, nothing should ever get that dusty in the first place. > [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > supplements. Remember, people are making BIG money off of those > too, and they're not regulated. NorthShoreCEO - 19 Jun 2005 20:55 GMT I don't do the white glove test, Rae, just making a suggestion. I can understand the dust given all the other elements! The masks do help, though, so try them.
> Don't I wish! In a perfect world that would be the case. But if > I wanted to keep this place completely dust free, it would be [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Rae Rae - 19 Jun 2005 22:41 GMT I continued with my cleaning today and I used the mask more. So far so good... The only time I had a problem with nasal symptons was when I was cooking. Not sure if its the steam from the cooking or what I'm cooking but sometimes that seems to irritate things. But overall, I really felt great today. Am looking forward to my afternoon walk with my little dog. Hope you are feeling well too.
Rae
>I don't do the white glove test, Rae, just making a suggestion. I can >understand the dust given all the other elements! The masks do help, [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> >> Rae Merlin - 20 Jun 2005 04:54 GMT Dear Rae, I just read some of your exploits with the allergen problem. I regularly work with hard case asthmatics, but from a much different aspect. My area of interest is how the things that cause the problem can be isolated and removed or avoided before attempting suggesting any desens measures. It is usually reasonably easy to determine how the problem is being caused, the desens is the trick! But it is pointless trying to achieve assistive effect if the subject keeps "shooting themselves in the foot" by repeated exposure to problem substances. Your location sounds like half your problem, and the dust you mention is likely partly petroleum based. It is not all that hard to address your kind of problem naturally but you may have to consider relocating. Vheers, Merlin.
Rae - 20 Jun 2005 14:18 GMT Dear Merlin:
What is "desens"?
We are planning to relocate in the next few years. But in the meantime, I have to deal with it as best I can. I bet there are a lot of cases that would be helped by relocating. It's not always easy to do for most people though.
Interestingly, I got asthma when I was 7, soon after I got all my vaccinations for school. My two siblings got asthma after the hit their late 30s and 40s. I had moved away by then. Pollution in that area was much worse around the time they developed it and my brother had been living in another state before he got it. Soon after returning to our home town, he developed it as well. The area had a paper mill not far from where we lived when I was a kid, and later an aluminum factory was built soon before they got their asthma and probably there are other factoris there as well. Was it the additional pollution to the environment that brought on their asthma so late? Was it that I was born with allergies or developed them later as a result of my surroundings? Who knows? I've read studies that many people who got the small pox vaccine later developed asthma. And it was shortly after my vaccine that I developed it. My sister used to tease that I was allergic to school. A lot of possibilites perhaps.
But I agree that moving away from here would definately help my condition. Don't think I'll be going back to south Miami but maybe another area I am looking at will be as helpful.
Thanks, Rae
> Dear Rae, I just read some of your exploits with the allergen problem. > I regularly work with hard case asthmatics, but from a much different [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > you may have to consider relocating. > Vheers, Merlin. Merlin - 21 Jun 2005 08:42 GMT Dear Rae, I am sorry I used the term desens, what I was referring to was "desensitisation" and the application inferred was reducing the bodies reactive effect to various substances which cause the asthmatic types of problem, thus having a reducing effect on the overall problem. We are talking allergy related asthma only and that is my only interest.
There are desens practices where various specific reactive substances for a sufferer are isolated and a vaccine prepared which is injected progressively over a period with a view to making the subject less affected by those problem substances. This idea has been used for probably fifty years or so with varying degrees of success, as far as I was concerned it is barely above being a waste of time and my observations over many years indicate any improvement with this technique is generally marginal.
Anyone being exposed constantly to problem substances dependent on the concentration usually has their problem progressively worsen and increasingly more substances most often become increasingly involved.
When you analyse hundreds of cases you find the incredible multiple application of antibiotics is normally usually involved. If this is considered as having adverse effect on that persons general immune system or resistance ability to basic odd viral types of things generally, you normally find that the person has a terrible history of repeated ongoing problems with no reserve ability to fight even the slightest cough or cold kind of thing. The other aspect is that these kinds of people usually suffer moreso than those without the problem. Polyps are common, plus all the other odd symptoms especially ENT kinds of things.
I was warned about this as a chronic long-term sufferer, and that warning was part of a set of routines and was the greatest gift I have ever received. You "need to know" something about this which you might learn by googling "Gary Huffnagle" he is one of the latest investigators involved with this antibiotic aspect and his findings fit the bigger picture quite well, although my instruction was slightly different covering antibody aspects.. So this understanding is another facet of trying to address the problem, and it usually assists in producing the "goods". When a sufferer learns to live without antibiotics a substantial health improvement generally occurs after a couple of years, and a completely different ongoing phase of improved health ensues. I have folowed subjects for more than twentfive years and the general trend is evermore to avoid antibiotics unless absolutely neccessary. This has to be experienced to be appreciated.
Normally if you retrace your circumstances carefully, you will appreciate how this might happen and apply to your own situation. It can be a bit like investigating an aircrash. In your case you mention the onset of the problem began after some innoculations, if you were to consider that the problem might have been generating prior to that and that given the illness effect of these extra substances may have pushed you over the edge, it would be credible. Often the problem begins with children that have histories of poor general health usually ENT related, then they might have a bout of flu or some minor illness and "bingo" they become asthmatic. These are usually good cases to examine for antibiotic useage and the "circumstantial web" is usually dreadfully apparent. Pitifully apparent would be a better term. If you might apply this concept carefully to common cases around you it will be seen.
Paper factories do present problems often by the bleaching agents used, aluminium smelting is another potent problem source, even the use of aluminium pots and pans are suspect, but probably the worst is for people working in production of antibiotics, they need to wear spacesuits these days..
Your mention of the problem onset at age 7, would likely infer that your problem includes some food kinds of items apart from the dust and airborne kinds of things, most likely also involving things like washing compounds and strong aromatic substances etc. These kinds of things usually typically include folllowing smoky vehicles on a highway and diesel exhaust kinds of things.
Some of our people here have recently made remarkable advances (I feel) with the overall problem, one of the latest is isolating various bugs associated with childrens ear and throat infection problems and developing a vaccine aimed at alleviating that problem, which of course is hoped to remove the neccesity for most applications of antibiotics. If you follow children in those earlier stages where they have repeated ENT problems you normally find repeated use of antibiotics which obviously is heavily involved with their asthmatic condition generation. A further application of probiotics is also showing remarkable benefit in some of these areas.
Our supermarkets now have A2 milk on the shelves which is another positive step, plus the acceptance of probiotic courses which is supposed to assist regeneration of the poor immune problem. So we are seeing "snippets" of progress. Probiotics are also proving substantially effective for treatment of eczema which is very closely allied with the asthmatic problem.
My original involvement in this examination of circumstances was really due to being an incredible skeptic, how could such simple procedural remedial practices have such incredible positive effect, when normal medicine never really helped all that much! The key to overcoming the problem lays with understanding how it began and how it is being maintained. Remove or address the cause/s and the effect can usually be easily addressed, but it must be addressed with a routine of some kind, just removing the problem causes does not effect a proper problem reduction alone, this is where and why all previous attempts were proven unsuccessful. This is where the cold-shock effect has such substantial benefit. My greatest and best result of my endeavours is having children with no respiratory problems, against all the odds with my own severe history and an asthma related death on my wifes side. So there have been incredible rewards.
Onsite asthma investigations are incredibly revealing, I really cannot understand why they are not a commonplace routine procedure, it would save the community millions and improve general health substantially. But it will eventually happen. The only place I have ever conversed with anyone doing this kind of thing was a Russian Doctor who was an asthmatic specialist and he regularly visited subjects homes determining problem sources. It was mutually surprising and very interesting comparing notes and ideas. He was incredibly experienced and indicated good results.
Most severely affected asthmatics are forever on the lookout for some odd method for improving their lot, I suffered terribly for half my life, tried everything, even the Chinese calcium cure, different meditation ideas, but really they were all marginally positive if anything. I was just lucky to come across a chap (specialist doctor) that really knew his stuff, it was a complete re-learning process and change of lifestyle that produced the goods for me. So I pass on the remedial info and teach subjects how to overcome their problems now. I do suggest that this system is beneficial in probably 60% of cases, but that is not a true representative picture because many people do not properly practice the routines and thus do not realise the real benefits, plus I class the problem as addressed only when no regular medication is any longer required..Many subjects have benefits to lesser degrees because of inability to escape allergen situations or other affecting causes.
Buteyko and other systems of breathing are substantially assistive, especially where there is limited ongoing allergen exposure, but the cold-shock system I practice is substantially superior to any of those practices. If you would like to know more please indicate affirmitive, you may have gathered that this netsite is extremely hostile to any procedures not using drugs, virtually to the point of intimidating and ridiculing anyone with different ideas, and usually try to ridicule any material to this effect. I feel that this inherent kind of thinking is part of the problem, not part of the solution, and those practicing these flat-earth concepts are simply prolonging human agony and remain part of the overall problem.
Cheers, Merlin
Rae - 21 Jun 2005 17:08 GMT I don't think I'm allergic to any food. I did notice however that sometime in the 80 or 90s, not sure exactly when it started, I could no longer drink milk without getting a headache. I soon started staying away from milk because it always made me feel sick, even though I had drunk it all my life with no problem.
Then the past couple of years I tried organic milk and had no problem whatsoever with it. I'm very glad to be able to drink all I want now without worrying about getting headache and sick feeling. Being a vegetarian, I would hate to have to cut out dairy.
I suspect many people who have a bad reaction to dairy (ruling out lactose intolerant people) are actually having a bad reaction to all the anti biotics that the cows are given and the poor feed they are eating. Seems to be a fad now to cut out dairy. To each his own I guess.
Rae
> Your mention of the problem onset at age 7, would likely infer that > your problem includes some food kinds of items apart from the dust and [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > > Cheers, Merlin Merlin - 22 Jun 2005 09:43 GMT G'day Rae, I have spent some time looking at different farms and problems there, many farmers have problems obviously from simply handling antibiotic food additives let alone the further downstream effects. As you would be aware milk tends to concentrate problems. Part of learning to properly cope is to learn to interpret body signals, the headaches you mention would be in this category. Sneezing attacks, watery eyes, and all the other effects are part of the necessity of understanding. You would likely have some possible problem with cattle meat products also, this is common with that whole group, from my experience. Being a vegetarian also has a lot of potential pitfalls with regard certain essential components, so often can cause other problems. The A2 cowsmilk is significantly different to A1 which has been the standard dairy product and the cows have been bred for greates milk production. A2 cows are a different basic breed and do not produce anywhere near the volume of A1, so the milk is slightly more expensive. It is interesting to see the supermarket shelves often cleared of this product, so demand is high and many people obviously understand the benefits of it.. One interesting event happened when I purchased 20 litres of "roundup" and divided it in one litre lots amongst a group of friends, I did this in a garage, and each person held their container whilst the process ensued. I had an immediate strong headache in the front part of the head, and as I proceeded with the division I asked if anyone else might have the same problem, to my amazement virtually everyone mentioned they were also affected similarly. It was a classic example of a situation where if I had not asked the question no one would have commented. This kind of thing is really more interesting and I now make a point of asking questions to anyone I see working with chemical substances. You can imagine the kinds of answers I get. So it really pays to ask questions and see how some of these substances do affect people. Cheers, Merlin.
00doc - 19 Jun 2005 16:33 GMT > I think if people don't keep demanding a cure and keeping the drug > companies feet to the fire, they will never put the $$ into a *cure* > instead of management and treatments. This is common alt med illogical propaganda.
The falacy is that they assume that the drug industry is one well coordinated entity. It is not. It is lots of independant companies, some large and some relatively small, who are all in competition with each other. They would all love to be the one to find the more effecitve treatment and ultimately the cure. The one that does would be extraordinarily wealthy. So, you see, you can only concoct this conspiracy to explain why it is better to not find the cure if you assume cooperation that does nto exist.
They make similar errors when they describe "organized medicine" as a single entity and ignore what would happen to the one or few docs that found the cure and prescribed it.
> There seems to be an attitude of complacency among many asthma > sufferers which will not accomplish anything. After all, the squeeky > wheel gets the oil. So squeak away.
But demanding a cure is not the same as looking under every rock and thinking you have found one.
 Signature 00doc
Rae - 19 Jun 2005 17:05 GMT Well, I will keep doing both: Looking in my spare time - and keeping an open mind.
Science has always been slow in accepting new theories and remedies. They didn't believe in penicillen either when it was first talked about.
Rae
> But demanding a cure is not the same as looking under every rock and > thinking you have found one. Evgenij Barsukov - 20 Jun 2005 19:50 GMT > Hi NorthShore: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > So, in the meantime, I just investigate everything that I hear about. Here is an exercise that is very easy to learn and practice at home, and have completely eliminated asthma symptoms in my now 5 years old daughter (more than a year without any medications now): http://sudy_zhenja.tripod.com/strelnikova_exercises.htm
Note that depending on the nature of your asthma (more alergy related or more chronic infection related) the results may vary. I expect this method to be more effective for infection related asthma, altough allergy related is somewhat benefited by development of bullet-proof habit of nasal breathing (reducing exposure to allergens) and improvement of overal lung function.
Regards, Yevgen
Immuno - 19 Jun 2005 08:23 GMT > Below are the results of 4 clinical studies on Buteyko breathing > technique: (Taken from NCBI (National Library of Medicine)) > > Wondering if anyone here has tried this. http://www.pioneernet.net/curtis/images/wile_e/wile-doh.jpg
For a Troll, you don't do much luking.
Personally, I do my best not to feed Trolls, however as this is your third strike...
<PLONK>
Richard Friedel - 19 Jun 2005 17:49 GMT One reason for the dislike of Buteyko here might be an unscientific nature of the basis of mainstream asthma treatment - namely that of treating the bronchi for inflammation using cortisone spray or cortisone pills.
Inflammation can be caused by above-normal air flow rates (J Assoc Physicians India 2000 Mar; 48(3):343-5 The role of cough and hyperventilation in perpetuating airway inflammation in asthma. Singh V).
It is common knowledge that hyperventilation can be controlled.
It is hard to see why airway inflammation should be declared to be an "official" cause of asthma with the result that anything else is declared to be complementary, alternative etc. with enormous effects on how asthma is treated by medical doctors. The official cause is just one of at least two alternatives of vaguely similar status. Decidng to deem one approach offical is just commercial. Regards, Richard Friedel s3e0101@mailin.lrz-muenchen.de
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