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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Asthma / May 2005

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Infectious Chlamydia Often Present in Lungs of Asthmatic Children

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NorthShoreCEO - 30 May 2005 13:11 GMT
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/505229

Infectious Chlamydia Often Present in Lungs of Asthmatic Children

By Megan Rauscher

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) May 20 - Viable Chlamydia pneumoniae
organisms are frequently present in bronchial lavage fluid from
children with asthma and other respiratory disorders, a new study
shows.

"We were surprised by the finding that 54% of children with
various chronic respiratory diseases harbored Chlamydia in their
lungs as determined by polymerase chain reaction (PCR)," Dr.
Wilmore C. Webley from the University of Massachusetts in
Amherst, told Reuters Heath.

"More importantly, this study shows for the first time that these
organisms are infectious," he said, noting that 31% of all
Chlamydia positive samples by PCR grew in culture on a macrophage
cell substrate.

"This is significant, since the youngest patient with viable
Chlamydia was 6 months old, suggesting that these organisms can
infect early in life at a time when the infant's immune response
is not well developed and can then persist for long periods in
the lungs."

Of the 70 children who participated in the study, 42 had asthma
whereas 28 had various respiratory disorders including aspiration
bronchitis, airway anomalies, gastroesophageal reflux disease,
cystic fibrosis, and recurrent pneumonia of unknown etiology.

Forty percent of PCR-positive samples and 20% of culture-positive
samples were from children with asthma. According to the
investigators, there was a strong correlation between lavage
culture positivity for Chlamydia and elevated total IgE levels.
"[This] implies that potentially a combination of elevated serum
IgE titers and the presence of C. pneumoniae organisms could be
used to assess disease severity," Dr. Webley said.

It also points to the "need to evaluate the usefulness of
antibiotics as part of the overall treatment regimen for certain
types of chronic respiratory diseases in children, especially
when they exist in combination with respiratory chlamydial
infection," he added.

Dr. Webley's team also detected Chlamydia in 24 of 70 (34%)
cultured peripheral blood specimens obtained compared with just 8
of 70 (11%) matched nonrespiratory control blood samples.
Seventeen (24%) of the positive blood cultures from the
respiratory group came from children with asthma.

Summing up, Dr. Webley noted that while C. pneumoniae has been
linked with a number of chronic infectious diseases, including
the exacerbation of asthma symptoms, the majority of the
published work to date has focused on adult onset asthma.

"[Our] studies extend detailed findings to children and provide
support to the suspicions of researchers that chlamydial
infections might play an important role in the exacerbation of
chronic respiratory disease symptoms including asthma."

The study appears in the May 15th issue of the American Journal
of Respiratory and Critical Care Medicine.

Am J Respir Crit Care Med 2005;171:1083-1088.
00doc - 30 May 2005 15:17 GMT
Don't get me wrong - I think this article strengthens the evidence for
an association between asthma and chronic chlamydia infection. But
there are a couple of places where the article is just a bit off. I'm
thinking most of it probably comes from the author rather than the
researcher.

Just please read the whole response before lighting the flames.

> http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/505229
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Wilmore C. Webley from the University of Massachusetts in
> Amherst, told Reuters Heath.

54% of children with "various chronic lung diseases". Just take note
of that and see below.

> "More importantly, this study shows for the first time that these
> organisms are infectious," he said, noting that 31% of all
> Chlamydia positive samples by PCR grew in culture on a macrophage
> cell substrate.

I'll admit it is concerning that there is an active infection. It
certainly does prove that it is not just evidence of a past infection
like antibodoes and even PCR. It does not distinguish between
colonization (which presumably would be doing no harm) and an active,
disease producing, infection.

It also does not establish cause and effect. Maybe something about the
lung diseases causes a predisposition to carry C. pn. More on this
below.

> "This is significant, since the youngest patient with viable
> Chlamydia was 6 months old, suggesting that these organisms can
> infect early in life at a time when the infant's immune response
> is not well developed and can then persist for long periods in
> the lungs."

It really does not show that the organisms can persist. The only way
to do this would be to repeat the study and see if they are still
there at some point int he future.

Mind you, I'm not saying it doesn't persist. My bet is that it does.
It is just that you can't prove that with a single point study.

> Of the 70 children who participated in the study, 42 had asthma
> whereas 28 had various respiratory disorders including aspiration
> bronchitis, airway anomalies, gastroesophageal reflux disease,
> cystic fibrosis, and recurrent pneumonia of unknown etiology.

Here is most of what I am talking about. Infection is not likely to be
the cause of CF or airway anomalies. It could predispose to reflux and
aspiration but that would be a stretch. So at least in these cases the
infection is associated but clearly not the cause. This supports the
argument that chronic lung diseases predisposes to infection or
colonization rather than infection causing the disease.

So we know that of 70 kids 54% were + = 38+ kids.

> Forty percent of PCR-positive samples and 20% of culture-positive
> samples were from children with asthma.

Of 38+ kids 40% (15) were asthmatic. This means that of asthmatics
15/42= 35% were PCR+.

So that is the second part of my point. It was not 54% of asthmatics.
The percentage for them was still significant and surprisingly high
but not 54%.

Since being PCR+ could represent the remnant of a past infection or
low grade colonization the culture results are really much more
convincing as evidence of current infection (but still not proof) and
they, apparently (we don't really have the numbers here), occured in
an even  smaller percentage than 35% (sounds like it was probably in
the neighborhood of 18%).

> According to the
> investigators, there was a strong correlation between lavage
> culture positivity for Chlamydia and elevated total IgE levels.
> "[This] implies that potentially a combination of elevated serum
> IgE titers and the presence of C. pneumoniae organisms could be
> used to assess disease severity," Dr. Webley said.

Or it could mean that high IgE levels is another marker for infection
(which appears to be more the researcher's point when you read the
actual abstract). This would be usefull since it could provide an
objective measure that does not require invasive procedures to obtain.
It also strengthens the argument that the infection is active.

> It also points to the "need to evaluate the usefulness of
> antibiotics as part of the overall treatment regimen for certain
> types of chronic respiratory diseases in children, especially
> when they exist in combination with respiratory chlamydial
> infection," he added.

Here I agree (and this is the part that I am hoping will save me from
joyful wrath).

Even if we take the 18% number (assuming it is about that) instead of
the 54% (which clearly does not apply to asthmatics) then this is
certainly high enough to consider a trial of therapy.

> Dr. Webley's team also detected Chlamydia in 24 of 70 (34%)
> cultured peripheral blood specimens obtained compared with just 8
> of 70 (11%) matched nonrespiratory control blood samples.
> Seventeen (24%) of the positive blood cultures from the
> respiratory group came from children with asthma.

This strengthens the argument that it is an active infection and not
just colonization. Of course, 11% of normal controls were also + so it
has to be interpreted with some caution.

> Summing up, Dr. Webley noted that while C. pneumoniae has been
> linked with a number of chronic infectious diseases, including
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Am J Respir Crit Care Med 2005;171:1083-1088.

Now, it would be nice if he could complete the study by treating the +
kids and then tracking their symptoms and clearance rates and coming
up with predictors of treatment success. That would really close the
loop.

BTW - to read the abstract go to pubmed (
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi ) and just cut and paste
the above citation into the search window. Unfortunately, the full
text of the article requires a subscription.

Signature

00doc

Joy - 30 May 2005 16:53 GMT
> BTW - to read the abstract go to pubmed (
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi ) and just cut and paste
> the above citation into the search window. Unfortunately, the full
> text of the article requires a subscription.

OK, lets go to PUBMED. Mind you, there are many more hits at Medline. But
this is the result of a Pubmed search for the years 2004 and 2005 for
"asthma and Pneumoniae."   Some think that caution is in order, particularly
in light of the lack of a reliable test and one article concludes in
childrenm C. Pmeunomiae has a protective effect (I believe the researchers
at National Jewish suggested that also several years 3 or 4 years ago
because I recall telling my doctor that). But it seems everyone now sees
there is a "relationship"  - some of us have been saying that for years. It
is getting hard to ignore the whole body of evidence.

Somewhere in here are a couple of articles I found a month ago that talk
about the fact that these bugs require a strong Th1 response which some
people seem to lack They speculate that explains the Th1/Th2 shift you see
and familial relationships. Again, that makes sense to me personally.

1:  Dal Molin G, Longo B, Not T, Poli A, Campello C. Related Articles, Links
A population based seroepidemiological survey of Chlamydia pneumoniae
infections in schoolchildren.
J Clin Pathol. 2005 Jun;58(6):617-20.
PMID: 15917413 [PubMed - in process]
2:  Talbot TR, Hartert TV, Mitchel E, Halasa NB, Arbogast PG, Poehling KA,
Schaffner W, Craig AS, Griffin MR. Related Articles, Links
Asthma as a risk factor for invasive pneumococcal disease.
N Engl J Med. 2005 May 19;352(20):2082-90.
PMID: 15901861 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
3:  Webley WC, Salva PS, Andrzejewski C, Cirino F, West CA, Tilahun Y,
Stuart ES. Related Articles, Links
The bronchial lavage of pediatric patients with asthma contains infectious
Chlamydia.
Am J Respir Crit Care Med. 2005 May 15;171(10):1083-8. Epub 2005 Feb 25.
PMID: 15735056 [PubMed - in process]
4:  Chu HW, Jeyaseelan S, Rino JG, Voelker DR, Wexler RB, Campbell K,
Harbeck RJ, Martin RJ. Related Articles, Links
TLR2 signaling is critical for Mycoplasma pneumoniae-induced airway mucin
expression.
J Immunol. 2005 May 1;174(9):5713-9.
PMID: 15843573 [PubMed - in process]
5:  Gendrel D, Biscardi S, Marc E, Moulin F, Iniguez JL, Raymond J. Related
Articles, Links
[Mycoplasma pneumoniae, community-acquired pneumonia and asthma]
Arch Pediatr. 2005 Apr;12 Suppl 1:S7-11. French.
PMID: 15893245 [PubMed - in process]
6:  Haas H. Related Articles, Links
[Antibiotherapy in children with atypical bacterial infections]
Arch Pediatr. 2005 Apr;12 Suppl 1:S45-8. French.
PMID: 15893238 [PubMed - in process]
7:  Park SJ, Lee YC, Rhee YK, Lee HB. Related Articles, Links
Seroprevalence of Mycoplasma pneumoniae and Chlamydia pneumoniae in stable
asthma and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease.
J Korean Med Sci. 2005 Apr;20(2):225-8.
PMID: 15831991 [PubMed - in process]
8:  Chu HW, Rino JG, Wexler RB, Campbell K, Harbeck RJ, Martin RJ. Related
Articles, Links
Mycoplasma pneumoniae Infection Increases Airway Collagen Deposition in a
Murine Model of Allergic Airway Inflammation.
Am J Physiol Lung Cell Mol Physiol. 2005 Mar 18; [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 15778249 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
9:  Azzouzi N, Elhataoui M, Bakhatar A, Takourt B, Benslimane A. Related
Articles, Links
[Part of Chlamydia pneumoniae in atherosclerosis and exacerbation of
chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and asthma]
Ann Biol Clin (Paris). 2005 Mar-Apr;63(2):179-84. French.
PMID: 15771975 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
10:  Ronchetti R, Biscione GL, Ronchetti F, Ronchetti MP, Martella S,
Falasca C, Casini C, Barreto M, Villa MP. Related Articles, Links
Why Chlamydia pneumoniae is associated with asthma and other chronic
conditions? Suggestions from a survey in unselected 9 yr old schoolchildren.
Pediatr Allergy Immunol. 2005 Mar;16(2):145-50.
PMID: 15787872 [PubMed - in process]
11:  Schmidt SM, Muller CE, Wiersbitzky SK. Related Articles, Links
Inverse association between Chlamydia pneumoniae respiratory tract
infection and initiation of asthma or allergic rhinitis in children.
Pediatr Allergy Immunol. 2005 Mar;16(2):137-44.
PMID: 15787871 [PubMed - in process]
12:  Hahn DL. Related Articles, Links
Chlamydophila pneumoniae in asthma.
Eur Respir J. 2005 Feb;25(2):392; author reply 392-4. No abstract available.
PMID: 15684309 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
13:  MacDowell AL, Bacharier LB. Related Articles, Links
Infectious triggers of asthma.
Immunol Allergy Clin North Am. 2005 Feb;25(1):45-66. Review.
PMID: 15579364 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
14:  Hahn DL. Related Articles, Links
Origins of atopy in pediatric asthma.
J Allergy Clin Immunol. 2005 Feb;115(2):425-6; author reply 426. No abstract
available.
PMID: 15696110 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
15:  Glanville AR, Gencay M, Tamm M, Chhajed P, Plit M, Hopkins P, Aboyoun
C, Roth M, Malouf M. Related Articles, Links
Chlamydia pneumoniae infection after lung transplantation.
J Heart Lung Transplant. 2005 Feb;24(2):131-6.
PMID: 15701426 [PubMed - in process]
16:  Branden E, Koyi H, Gnarpe J, Gnarpe H, Tornling G. Related Articles,
Links
Chronic Chlamydia pneumoniae infection is a risk factor for the development
of COPD.
Respir Med. 2005 Jan;99(1):20-6.
PMID: 15672844 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
17:  Biscione GL, Corne J, Chauhan AJ, Johnston SL. Related Articles, Links
Increased frequency of detection of Chlamydophila pneumoniae in asthma.
Eur Respir J. 2004 Nov;24(5):745-9.
PMID: 15516667 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
18:  Antonova LP, Markova TP, Kurbatova EA. Related Articles, Links
[Naso-subcutaneous application of the polycomponent vaccine VP-4 for the
treatment of patients with bronchial asthma and chronic obstructive
bronchitis]
Zh Mikrobiol Epidemiol Immunobiol. 2004 Nov-Dec;(6):36-40. Russian.
PMID: 15636137 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
19:  Hammerschlag MR. Related Articles, Links
Chlamydia pneumoniae and asthma in children: diagnostic issues.
Clin Infect Dis. 2004 Oct 15;39(8):1251-2; author reply 1252-3. No abstract
available.
PMID: 15486854 [PubMed - in process]
20:  Waites KB, Talkington DF. Related Articles, Links
Mycoplasma pneumoniae and its role as a human pathogen.
Clin Microbiol Rev. 2004 Oct;17(4):697-728, table of contents. Review.
PMID: 15489344 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
21:  Weinberger M. Related Articles, Links
Respiratory infections and asthma: current treatment strategies.
Drug Discov Today. 2004 Oct 1;9(19):831-7. Review.
PMID: 15381135 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
22:  Guo Q, Zhang LX, Cai Z. Related Articles, Links
[The Relationship between Chlamydia Pneumoniae Infection and Asthma.]
Zhongguo Wei Zhong Bing Ji Jiu Yi Xue. 2004 Oct;16(10):634-5. Chinese. No
abstract available.
PMID: 15461851 [PubMed - in process]
23:  Blasi F, Cosentini R, Tarsia P, Allegra L. Related Articles, Links
Potential role of antibiotics in the treatment of asthma.
Curr Drug Targets Inflamm Allergy. 2004 Sep;3(3):237-42. Review.
PMID: 15379591 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
24:  Blasi F. Related Articles, Links
Atypical pathogens and respiratory tract infections.
Eur Respir J. 2004 Jul;24(1):171-81. Review.
PMID: 15293621 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
25:  Nariai A. Related Articles, Links
[Mycoplasma pneumoniae infection in hospitalized children with acute
pneumonia under the Mycoplasma epidemic]
Kansenshogaku Zasshi. 2004 Jun;78(6):496-502. Japanese.
PMID: 15287477 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
26:  Korppi M, Paldanius M, Hyvarinen A, Nevalainen A, Husman T. Related
Articles, Links
Chlamydia pneumoniae and newly diagnosed asthma: a case-control study in 1
to 6-year-old children.
Respirology. 2004 Jun;9(2):255-9.
PMID: 15182278 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
27:  Biscardi S, Lorrot M, Marc E, Moulin F, Boutonnat-Faucher B,
Heilbronner C, Iniguez JL, Chaussain M, Nicand E, Raymond J, Gendrel D.
Related Articles, Links
Mycoplasma pneumoniae and asthma in children.
Clin Infect Dis. 2004 May 15;38(10):1341-6. Epub 2004 Apr 29.
PMID: 15156467 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
28:  Schultze-Werninghaus G, Duchna HW, Rasche K, Orth M. Related Articles,
Links
[Acute severe asthma in older adults]
Internist (Berl). 2004 May;45(5):518-26. Review. German.
PMID: 15054578 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
29:  Tuuminen T, Edelstein I, Punin A, Kislova N, Stratchounski L. Related
Articles, Links
Use of quantitative and objective enzyme immunoassays to investigate the
possible association between Chlamydia pneumoniae and Mycoplasma pneumoniae
antibodies and asthma.
Clin Microbiol Infect. 2004 Apr;10(4):345-8.
PMID: 15059128 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
30:  Yang J, Hooper WC, Phillips DJ, Talkington DF. Related Articles, Links
Cytokines in Mycoplasma pneumoniae infections.
Cytokine Growth Factor Rev. 2004 Apr-Jun;15(2-3):157-68. Review.
PMID: 15110799 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
31:  Chu HW, Campbell JA, Rino JG, Harbeck RJ, Martin RJ. Related Articles,
Links
Inhaled fluticasone propionate reduces concentration of Mycoplasma
pneumoniae, inflammation, and bronchial hyperresponsiveness in lungs of
mice.
J Infect Dis. 2004 Mar 15;189(6):1119-27. Epub 2004 Mar 2.
PMID: 14999617 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
32:  Beuther DA, Martin RJ. Related Articles, Links
Antibiotics in asthma.
Curr Allergy Asthma Rep. 2004 Mar;4(2):132-8. Review.
PMID: 14769262 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
33:  Hahn DL. Related Articles, Links
Chlamydia pneumoniae and asthma: more than just exacerbations.
J Allergy Clin Immunol. 2004 Mar;113(3):568. No abstract available.
PMID: 15007366 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
34:  Hansbro PM, Beagley KW, Horvat JC, Gibson PG. Related Articles, Links
Role of atypical bacterial infection of the lung in
predisposition/protection of asthma.
Pharmacol Ther. 2004 Mar;101(3):193-210. Review.
PMID: 15030999 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
35:  Savykoski T, Harju T, Paldanius M, Kuitunen H, Bloigu A, Wahlstrom E,
Rytila P, Kinnula V, Saikku P, Leinonen M. Related Articles, Links
Chlamydia pneumoniae infection and inflammation in adults with asthma.
Respiration. 2004 Mar-Apr;71(2):120-5.
PMID: 15031565 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
36:  Lai SH, Wong KS, Liao SL. Related Articles, Links
Clinical analysis of bronchiectasis in Taiwanese children.
Chang Gung Med J. 2004 Feb;27(2):122-8.
PMID: 15095957 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
37:  Klig JE. Related Articles, Links
Current challenges in lower respiratory infections in children.
Curr Opin Pediatr. 2004 Feb;16(1):107-12. Review.
PMID: 14758123 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
38:  Meloni F, Paschetto E, Mangiarotti P, Crepaldi M, Morosini M,
Bulgheroni A, Fietta A. Related Articles, Links
Acute Chlamydia pneumoniae and Mycoplasma pneumoniae infections in
community-acquired pneumonia and exacerbations of COPD or asthma:
therapeutic considerations.
J Chemother. 2004 Feb;16(1):70-6.
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39:  Kuroki H, Morozumi M, Chiba N, Ubukata K. Related Articles, Links
Characterization of children with Mycoplasma pneumoniae infection detected
by rapid polymerase chain reaction technique.
J Infect Chemother. 2004 Feb;10(1):65-7.
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[Moraxella catarrhalis in chronic and relapsing respiratory tract
infections in children]
Antibiot Khimioter. 2004;49(8-9):43-7. Russian.
PMID: 15727145 [PubMed - in process]
41:  Cazzola M, Matera MG, Blasi F. Related Articles, Links
Macrolide and occult infection in asthma.
Curr Opin Pulm Med. 2004 Jan;10(1):7-14. Review.
PMID: 14749600 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Atypical bacterial pneumonia and asthma risk.
J Asthma. 2004;41(8):863-8.
PMID: 15641636 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
43:  Tyl J. Related Articles, Links
[Is there a link between chronic chlamydial infection and childhood
asthma?]
Med Wieku Rozwoj. 2004;VIII(2 Pt 2):411-417. Polish.
PMID: 15849399 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
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[Significance of antibacterial therapy of Chlamydophila pneumoniae
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Ter Arkh. 2004;76(10):91-4. Russian.
PMID: 15575487 [PubMed - in process]

Joy
NorthShoreCEO - 30 May 2005 16:56 GMT
> Don't get me wrong - I think this article strengthens the
> evidence for an association between asthma and chronic
> chlamydia infection. But there are a couple of places where the
> article is just a bit off. I'm thinking most of it probably
> comes from the author rather than the researcher.

It may well be off in some points, but the bottom line message is
that those with children who suffer from asthma shouldn't
discount the cause being bacteria.
Alison Chaiken - 30 May 2005 18:33 GMT
Maureen conveys:
>According to the investigators, there was a strong correlation
>between lavage culture positivity for Chlamydia and elevated total
>IgE levels.

It has been my understanding that IgE is the type of antibody that
responds to parasites and that in a malfunctioning immune system, it
is also the cause of allergies.  Meanwhile IgG, the most common kind
of antibody, responds to microbial infections.

Thus isn't it surprising that the presence of Chlamydia is linked to
elevated IgE levels?  Wouldn't we expect Chlamydia to evoke an IgG
response?  Does this study suggest that a Chlamydia infection is
causing allergies?

Signature

Alison Chaiken            "From:" address above is valid.
(650) 236-2231 [daytime]    http://www.wsrcc.com/alison/
Notions and scruples were like spilt needles, making one afraid of
treading, or sitting down, or even eating.  -- George Eliot

NorthShoreCEO - 30 May 2005 21:36 GMT
> Maureen conveys:
>>According to the investigators, there was a strong correlation
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> is
> causing allergies?

I don't know, but I can tell you that in my own case, once the
chlamydia pneumoniae was cleared up, my allergies went from
severe to very mild.
Joy - 31 May 2005 00:13 GMT
See my post above about how people who fail to respond with the appropriate
Th1 response default to the Th2 response - a malfunctioning immune response,
in other words.

Joy

> Maureen conveys:
> >According to the investigators, there was a strong correlation
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> response?  Does this study suggest that a Chlamydia infection is
> causing allergies?
00doc - 31 May 2005 01:28 GMT
NorthShoreCEO wrote (in response to Alison - not Joy):
> I don't know, but I can tell you that in my own case, once the
> chlamydia pneumoniae was cleared up, my allergies went from
> severe to very mild.

And Joy wrote (in response to the same post NSCEO was responding to):
> See my post above about how people who fail to respond with the
> appropriate Th1 response default to the Th2 response - a
> malfunctioning immune response, in other words.

If it was the malfunctioning immune response that was predisposing to
the infections then the allergies should not be affected after
eradication of the infection. However, if the infections were causing
an imbalance of the Th1 and Th2 systems by either suppressing Th1
responses or enhancing Th2 then one would expect the allergies to
improve with treatment.

Signature

00doc

Joy - 31 May 2005 02:07 GMT
> NorthShoreCEO wrote (in response to Alison - not Joy):
> > I don't know, but I can tell you that in my own case, once the
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> responses or enhancing Th2 then one would expect the allergies to
> improve with treatment.

That is not my understanding of what they where saying. There is a lack of
Th1 response which would be required to fight off the infection. Therefore,
they continue with the infection and in fact respond with an elevated Th2
response. That is typical of allergy. I will not go as far as to say that is
what has happened to me personally. I will speculate that is what you see in
my family, however.

Joy
00doc - 31 May 2005 03:40 GMT
>> NorthShoreCEO wrote (in response to Alison - not Joy):
>>> I don't know, but I can tell you that in my own case, once the
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> personally. I will speculate that is what you see in my family,
> however.

No, I think you are right. My understanding is that they are saying
the Th1 defect is present first and predisposes to the infection. That
might be true but it would not explain the allergies getting better
after treatment.

Other possibilities are that the allergy improvement was an unrelated
fluke, that the treatment helped the allergies by some other
mechanism, or that the infection was triggering the allergies by some
other mechanism.

Signature

00doc

Joy - 31 May 2005 06:56 GMT
> >> NorthShoreCEO wrote (in response to Alison - not Joy):
> >>> I don't know, but I can tell you that in my own case, once the
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> mechanism, or that the infection was triggering the allergies by some
> other mechanism.

Yes, I think the Th1 defect is the problem and explains the family nature of
asthma (speculation on my part). But it would also explain the positive
change in allergy if the infection were removed and therefore no response
were necessary - that is neither Th1 or Th2 because according to this
researcher (the response changes to Th2 when Th1 is not available). Not that
it is effective entirely for some reason in all of us.

Joy
Joy - 31 May 2005 02:09 GMT
. However, if the infections were causing
> an imbalance of the Th1 and Th2 systems by either suppressing Th1
> responses or enhancing Th2 then one would expect the allergies to
> improve with treatment.
Is that not what Maureen has been saying?
00doc - 31 May 2005 01:22 GMT
> Maureen conveys:
>> According to the investigators, there was a strong correlation
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> response?  Does this study suggest that a Chlamydia infection is
> causing allergies?

Fungal infections also can cause an IgE response. Since mycoplasma and
chlamydia live intracellularly and are "atypical" in many respects it
is not shocking that they would produce a different immune response.
This doesn't mean that the infections are necessarily causing
allergies but it does raise the intriguing question of whether
measuring chlamydia and mycoplasma specific IgE antibodies might not
turn out to be a good test.

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00doc

ARoberts - 31 May 2005 02:21 GMT
>> Maureen conveys:
>>> According to the investigators, there was a strong correlation
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> does raise the intriguing question of whether measuring chlamydia and
> mycoplasma specific IgE antibodies might not turn out to be a good test.

That is interesting.  Are there currently such chlamydia / mycoplasma
specific IgE antibody tests available now?
Joy - 31 May 2005 02:25 GMT
> That is interesting.  Are there currently such chlamydia / mycoplasma
> specific IgE antibody tests available now?

Not the ones you can "go to the Bank" on. Unless they do a lung biopsy.

Joy
ARoberts - 31 May 2005 03:36 GMT
>> That is interesting.  Are there currently such chlamydia / mycoplasma
>> specific IgE antibody tests available now?
>
> Not the ones you can "go to the Bank" on. Unless they do a lung biopsy.
>
> Joy

I like the emperical approach (just take the antibiotics)--ultimately it's
less perilous.
00doc - 31 May 2005 03:44 GMT
>>> That is interesting.  Are there currently such chlamydia /
>>> mycoplasma specific IgE antibody tests available now?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> antibiotics)--ultimately
> it's less perilous.

Right now that may be the best we have. It would be nice to be able to
predict response and avoid treating people with no chance of a
response. More importantly, it would be useful to be able to monitor
for relapses and partial responses instead of trying to guess if the
clinical falure was due to innappropriate candidate selection (meaning
more drugs would do no good) or innadequate treatment (meaning more
drugs are needed).

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00doc

Joy - 31 May 2005 07:00 GMT
> >>> That is interesting.  Are there currently such chlamydia /
> >>> mycoplasma specific IgE antibody tests available now?
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> more drugs would do no good) or innadequate treatment (meaning more
> drugs are needed).

Well, I look on it as a patient. Someone who was sick and has no interest in
being in that boat any longer. So you know, unless research picks up and
moves on quickly, I say GO FOR IT. It is amazing how many hits I get over
this time last year, though.

Joy
00doc - 31 May 2005 03:41 GMT
> That is interesting.  Are there currently such chlamydia /
> mycoplasma
> specific IgE antibody tests available now?

Not that I know of - but I haven't checked.

Signature

00doc

00doc - 31 May 2005 01:19 GMT
>> Don't get me wrong - I think this article strengthens the
>> evidence for an association between asthma and chronic
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> that those with children who suffer from asthma shouldn't
> discount the cause being bacteria.

I agree.

Signature

00doc

 
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