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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Asthma / May 2005'Secondary polycythemia/erythrocytosis' / asthma / COPD
Since theophylline is the FIRST LINE treatment for those with asthma .. and since theophylline is used to DECREASE the NUMBER of red blood cells .. in OTHER diseases .. the study below might prove INTERESTING .. to .. some. It found asthma TO BE the 'underlying cause' .. and just .. coincidence of course .. the increased red blood cell mass is FOUND in ALMOST ALL .. of .. the .. patients .. Coincidence of course. 'Secondary' .. TO .. of .. course. For sure .. That would be pretty much the same as 'secondary' polycythemia / increased blood cell mass which is found IN pulmonary hypertension .. which has NOW been shown to be INDUCED .. by .. polycythemia IN the .. mouse. So .. is the polycythemia IN these patients ALSO .. not .. 'secondary' .. BUT .. post/pre/before .. asthma .. ? <<snip>> Secondary polycythemia was noted in 32 of 40 patients (80%) <<snip>> East Afr Med J. 2004 Apr;81(4):202-6. Related Articles, Links Causes and clinical characteristics of chronic cor-pulmonale in Ethiopia. Aderaye G. Chest Unit, Department of Internal Medicine, Addis Ababa University, P.O. Box 2380, Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. OBJECTIVE: To determine the clinical characteristics and underlying causes of chronic cor-pulmonale in Ethiopian patients. DESIGN: A hospital based cross-sectional study. SETTING: Tikur Anbessa Hospital, a large referral hospital in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. SUBJECTS: Fourty two consecutive patients referred to the chest clinic of Tikur Anbessa Hospital, Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. RESULTS: Bronchial asthma (36%), chronic fibrocavitary tuberculosis (31%) and chronic bronchitis/emphysema (33%) were the most frequent underlying causes and occurred either singly or in combination in 36(86%) of patients. Interstitial lung disease occurred in five (11.9%) patients. Right-sided heart failure and cyanosis were the most common clinical presentations. Secondary polycythemia was noted in 32 of 40 patients (80%). The role of pulmonary vascular diseases including pulmonary schistosomiasis as a cause of pulmonary heart disease could not be ascertained but appeared to be insignificant. CONCLUSION: Chronic persistent asthma is a frequent underlying cause of chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and chronic cor-pulmonale compared to smoking related chronic bronchitis/emphysema in Ethiopia. The preventive strategy of chronic cor-pulmonale includes optimal treatment of bronchial asthma, early diagnosis and effective treatment of tuberculosis and health education to avoid cigarette smoking. PMID: 15884287 [PubMed - in process] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking > Since theophylline is the FIRST LINE treatment for those with asthma Get a clue. Theophylline .. IS .. used .. in .. ASTHMA .. Theophylline IS used to treat .. increased .. blood cell production .. Asthma PRECEDES .. COPD .. COPD .. presents .. WITH .. increased blood cell production .. I .. GOT .. 'a clue' .. Seems .. YOU .. are the .. one .. who IS .. 'clueless' .. Heh .. heh .. How's .. that .. feel .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking > Theophylline .. IS .. used .. in .. ASTHMA .. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > COPD .. presents .. WITH .. increased blood cell production .. Imagine someone "presenting" at a garage with a broken car. It might have a knackered gearbox, or it might have a broken carb. Either way it "presents" the same. > I .. GOT .. 'a clue' .. No you haven't. Go back into hiding, Tommy. > Who loves ya. > Tom [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > DEAD PEOPLE WALKING > http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking "Go back into hiding , Tommy" Why .. should I do that .. ? Are you hinting at something you little pussy fk .. ? Are ya .. ? Say it out loud .. Comeon .. at least make an attempt to stand upright .. Ya .. fkg .. pussy .. Who loves ya. Tom > "Go back into hiding , Tommy" > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Say it out loud .. When given the chance to call me a pussy to my face last summer you ran and hid. Beg to differ .. You came nowhere .. near . Calgary .. Did ya .. ? Did ya .. ? Didn't think so .. Talk the big walk .. I ain't hard to find .. and since I didn't actually .. see you .. that means .. see above .. Fkg .. pussy .. That .. is WHAT .. it means .. Evidence based .. Heh .. heh .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking Beg to differ .. You came nowhere .. near . Calgary .. Did ya .. ? Did ya .. ? Didn't think so .. Talk the big walk .. I ain't hard to find .. and since I didn't actually .. see you .. that means .. see above .. You and I both know the truth, Tommy :o) The only TRUTH .. I .. KNOW .. about YOU .. is .. you like to laugh at the broken bones of your .. charges .. So .. don't be TALKING .. big .. to .. ME .. Ya fkg pussy .. Let me .. repeat .. Ya ..fkg .. PUSSSIEEEEE .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com /ironjustice/manisaherbivore DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking >The only TRUTH .. I .. KNOW .. about YOU .. is .. you like to laugh at >the broken bones of your .. charges .. >So .. don't be TALKING .. big .. to .. ME .. >Ya fkg pussy .. >Let me .. repeat .. >Ya ..fkg .. PUSSSIEEEEE .. Move on, Tom. This attempt at discrediting me was blown out of the water years ago. As I would have explained to your face if you weren't so yellow as to hide from me. >>On Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:51:43 +0100, "Manky Badger" <m...@nospam.puritan.freeserve.co.uk> wrote: >I was wondering.............. >Last Friday we took the scouts climbing. Before we even got to the place, >one fell over and broke his arm. In the past I've been on two other >activities where we're had broken bones, each of which took place in public >play parks. << You are a fkg .. loser .. A two-bit fkg .. loser .. Your limitations .. or .. more precisely .. ONE .. of .. your limitations is .. ability to .. take CHARGE .. of children .. Evidence based .. I've seen your .. type .. before .. Heh .. heh .. Read my lips .. You have PROVEN yourself to be a .. pussy .. You will ALWAYS .. be .. a .. pussy .. And no matter how many times you .. repeat .. "I am not a pussy .. " You will always .. BE .. a .. pusssssiiiiieeeeee .... How DOES .. that .. feeeel .. Eh .. Heh .. heh .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking >>On Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:51:43 +0100, "Manky Badger" >I've seen your .. type .. before .. No, you haven't. You had the chance to see "my type" in person, but you hid like the cowardly pussy that you are. >>>On Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:51:43 +0100, "Manky Badger" > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >You had the chance to see "my type" in person, but you hid like the cowardly >pussy that you are. Why continue to berate each other with such feline contempt? At least be a little more original; using perhaps other, more descriptive terminology? > Theophylline .. IS .. used .. in .. ASTHMA .. > Theophylline IS used to treat .. increased .. blood cell production .. > Asthma PRECEDES .. COPD .. > COPD .. presents .. WITH .. increased blood cell production .. Imagine someone "presenting" at a garage with a broken car. It might have a knackered gearbox, or it might have a broken carb. Either way it "presents" the same. << If 'someone' .. has been selling me .. expensive water .. FOR .. my car .. and telling me he "doesn't know WHY I was needing 'so much' .. water .. and WHY the water would BE ' working' .." and then I find out later I have a leak IN my gasket .. then I can pretty much be .. AT THE VERY LEAST .. interested to KNOW .. the REASON .. the .. expensive WATER .. is / was working IN .. my car BEFORE .. i .. KNEW .. i .. HAD .. a torn gasket. So NOW .. i .. KNOW .. next time I begin to see people putting EXPENSIVE .. water .. INTO their .. cars .. I .. will now .. watch .. to see if this proves to be .. so .. Voifkgla .. NOW .. eat me .. It don't take no .. lab tech .. Just takes .. brains .. Heh .. heh .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking > I .. GOT .. 'a clue' .. No you haven't. Go back into hiding, Tommy. >It don't take no .. lab tech .. >Just takes .. brains .. Shame you have none. Heh .. heh .. Who loves ya? Tom Jesus Was A Pussy! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking > I .. GOT .. 'a clue' .. No you haven't. Go back into hiding, Tommy. >> Manky Badger May 16, 2:56 pm show options Newsgroups: sci.med.pathology, sci.med, sci.med.nursing, alt.support.asthma, sci.med.cardiology From: "Manky Badger" <s...@puritanDOTfreeserve.FULLSTOPcoSPOTuk> - Find messages by this author Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 19:56:22 +0100 Local: Mon,May 16 2005 2:56 pm Subject: Re: 'Secondary polycythemia/erythrocytosis' / asthma / COPD Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse <ironjust...@aol.com> wrote in message news:1116160123.081017.33160@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... >It don't take no .. lab tech .. >Just takes .. brains .. Shame you have none. Heh .. heh .. Who loves ya? Tom Jesus Was A Pussy! << Noticed you changed my .. sig .. Seems to be MORE .. to .. your postings .. TO .. my .. particular .. threads than meets the eye .. Eh .. manky .. YOU .. a 'boy scout leader' .. ?? Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking >Noticed you changed my .. sig .. Took you a week to spot that. Oh Tommy - you are so predicatable, so easy. You post articles you don't understand and GET...stressy....WHEN...there's....ANY...attempt....AT....discussion Why on earth do you bother ? Discussion .. ? Read my lips you little .. pussy .. STAY the fk off my threads .. STAY the fk away from me .. Simple .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking > Discussion .. ? Serious question, Tom - what's the point of newsgroups if not to discuss ? > Read my lips you little .. pussy .. > > STAY the fk off my threads .. > > STAY the fk away from me .. Why - what do you have to be scared of ? The 'tact' .. YOU .. have .. taken .. over the years .. is .. NOT .. one of .. 'discussion' .. but one of .. attack .. You ... ARE ... a .. pussy .. Live with it .. Don't attempt to .. waffle .. BE .. yourself .. Heh .. heh .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking > The 'tact' .. YOU .. have .. taken .. over the years .. is .. NOT .. > one of .. 'discussion' .. but one of .. attack .. Perhaps you mean "tack" ? I've just given as good as I've got. But in any event, are you seriously trying to say that you are now prepared to engage in serious reasoned discussion over the articles you post? > You ... ARE ... a .. pussy .. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > BE .. yourself .. What exactly IS a "pussy" - as I've said before it's no insult, is it ? >>I've just given as good as I've got. But in any event, are you seriously trying to say that you are now prepared to engage in serious reasoned discussion over the articles you post?<< With .. the .. likes of .. you .. ? Heh .. heh .. Read my .. lips .. Stay the fk .. away .. from .. me .. I don't .. like .. your .. type .. That is .. fkg .. pussies .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking >> The 'tact' .. YOU .. have .. taken .. over the years .. is .. NOT .. >> one of .. 'discussion' .. but one of .. attack .. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > trying to say that you are now prepared to engage in serious reasoned > discussion over the articles you post? It appears that he isn't. Surprise! >>> The 'tact' .. YOU .. have .. taken .. over the years .. is .. NOT .. >>> one of .. 'discussion' .. but one of .. attack .. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > It appears that he isn't. Surprise! Oh it gets better !! - Have a loook in uk.rec.scouting. He's tried to start a smear campaign against me, and in his own unique style within a couple of posts he's insulting all and sundry. > > "Manky Badger" <spam@puritanDOTfreeserve.FULLSTOPcoSPOTuk> wrote in > > message news:d6qpoe$nsq$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk... > >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > He's tried to start a smear campaign against me, and in his own unique style > within a couple of posts he's insulting all and sundry. Quite illuminating... Scared . ? Read my lips .. These are MEDICAL .. newsgroups .. I post STRICTLY .. medical .. studies .. YOU .. attack .. IE: jesus was a pussy .. Heh .. heh .. Again .. read my .. lips .. STAY .. in .. recfkgkites or recfkgebay .. but .. STAY the fk AWAY .. from .. ME .. Simply because .. I .. stay .. IN .. medical newsgroups .. and YOU .. don't belong .. IN .. medical newsgroups .. Because .. your MO .. is .. OF .. a .. fkg .. pussy .. And like I said .. fkg .. pussies .. ARE ... fkg .. pussies .. Too bad you don't HAVE a newsgroups dedicated TO .. fkg .. pussies .. Maybe you should START a newsgroup .. Let me advise you to name it .. alt.fkgpussies. Or .. soc.fkg.pussies .. Or .. sci.med.fkgpussies .. I am sure .. YOU .. should be able to .. think .. OF .. some more .. SINCE you ARE .. after all .. a .. fkg .. pussy .. Eh .. Go with what you .. know .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking > I .. stay .. IN .. medical newsgroups > Who loves ya. > Tom Hmmmm - you have someone trying to steal your identity then, Tom. As you have clearly said that you stay in *medical* newsgroups, who's the chap with the ID "aolcom" who's using your sig line in uk.rec.cars.modifications ? > Asthma PRECEDES .. COPD .. What on earth gives you this idea? pavane You picked the right thread to be on .. Either .. freaks or / and just plain stupid .. Guess which one YOU fall under .. Should do a search of the archives but I will assume for NOW .. you are just .. plain .. stupid .. Who loves ya? Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking > Since theophylline is the FIRST LINE treatment for those with asthma .. Get a clue. It used to be the first line treatment. Maybe 35 years ago. Now, there are much better drugs. Theophylline is used only in rare cases. Jeff "Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> > Is a crossposting idiot. > Stop crossposters by using this message as [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the sooner they'll learn. > Keep The Internet Free - of Idiots Andrew Well unless you have a problem with math .. then there is no excuse for your .. stupid .. comment .. 1998 <<snip>> Salbutamol and theophylline syrups were the most common types of medication <<snip>> S Afr Med J. 1998 Aug;88(8):986-94. Related Articles, Links Underrecognition and undertreatment of asthma in Cape Town primary school children. Ehrlich RI, Jordaan E, du Toit D, Volmink JA, Weinberg E, Zwarenstein M. Department of Community Health, University of Cape Town. BACKGROUND: In view of the high local prevalence of asthma, the extent of recognition and appropriate management of childhood asthma was studied in a large suburban area of Cape Town. DESIGN: Cross-sectional study based on random community sample of schools. METHOD: 1,955 parents of sub B pupils from 16 schools completed a questionnaire, followed by: (i) an interview of the parents of 348 symptomatic children; and (ii) bronchial responsiveness testing on 254 children. The final case group consisted of 242 children with reported asthma or multiple asthma symptoms on both questionnaires. Children in whom asthma was acknowledged were compared with those in whom it was not. RESULTS: Overall, any past or current ('ever') asthma was acknowledged by respondents in only 53% of the children, and current asthma in only 37.1%. While most children had received treatment in the previous 12 months, 66.1% of the recognised group were on current treatment (23.2% on daily treatment), compared with 37% of the unrecognised group (3% daily). Salbutamol and theophylline syrups were the most common types of medication, while inhalers and anti-inflammatory medications were underused. Only a minority of parents reported the child ever having used a peak flow meter, or volunteered knowledge of preventive measures. Current treatment, and to a lesser degree recognition of asthma by parents, were more common among children on medical aid and of higher socio-economic status. CONCLUSIONS: These findings suggest that ways need to be found: (i) to increase the use of current asthma treatment guidelines by practitioners; (ii) to provide access to comprehensive care by children not on medical aid; and (iii) to improve education of parents in home management measures such as severity assessment and avoidance of smoking, allergen and dietary triggers. PMID: 9754212 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Who loves ya. Tom > Well unless you have a problem with math .. then there is no excuse > for your .. stupid .. comment .. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Underrecognition and undertreatment of asthma in Cape Town primary > school children. This is in South Africa. I was talking about the US. See page 65 of this document: http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/asthma/asthgdln.pdf. Yeah, theophyline is used, but not that often. Jeff Contrary to popular belief .. America is .. NOT .. the beallendall .. Is .. it .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking Contrary to popular belief .. America is .. NOT .. the beallendall .. Is .. it .. Nope, but any place you aren't--is. >Contrary to popular belief .. America is .. NOT .. the beallendall .. > >Is .. it .. > >Nope, but any place you aren't--is. As you know, It ain't the meat, it's the notion That makes his theory such a crock. It ain't the place or the potion That strokes the mission puppet in his sock. Since elevated iron leads to increased blood cells .. erythrocytosis .. and since increased blood cell mass / erythrocytosis is treated BY using theophylline .. which destroys / reduces red blood cell mass .. the FACT .. elevated iron is FOUND .. in .. asthma .. patients .. and since theophylline is USED .. by .. asthma ..patients .. would / should make one .. wonder .. WHETHER .. the theophylline works .. DUE TO .. the increased red blood cells caused BY .. the .. iron .. Biol Trace Elem Res. 2004 Jan;97(1):31-41. Related Articles, Links Alterations in plasma essential trace elements selenium, manganese, zinc, copper, and iron concentrations and the possible role of these elements on oxidative status in patients with childhood asthma. Kocyigit A, Armutcu F, Gurel A, Ermis B. Department of Biochemistry, Medical Faculty, Harran University, Sanliurfa, Turkey. The aim of the present study is to evaluate the status of plasma essential trace element selenium (Se), manganese (Mn), copper (Cu), zinc (Zn), and iron (Fe) concentrations and the effect of these elements on oxidative status in patients with childhood asthma. Plasma Se, Mn, Cu, and Zn concentrations were determined by atomic absorption spectrophotometry (AAS) and Fe concentrations, malondialdehyde (MDA), and total antioxidant capacity (TAC) were determined by the colorimetric method. The plasma MDA/TAC ratio was calculated as an index of oxidative status. Plasma albumin levels were measured to determine nutritional status. Plasma Fe concentrations, MDA levels and the MDA/TAC ratio were significantly higher (p<0.001, p<0.001, and p<0.01, respectively) and Se and Mn concentrations and TAC were lower (p<0.01, p<0.05, and p<0.01, respectively) in patients when compared to the healthy subjects. Plasma Zn, Cu, and albumin levels were not found to be significantly different in patients and controls (p>0.05). There were positive relationships between plasma MDA and Fe (r=0.545, p<0.001) and TAC and Se (r= 0.485, p<0.021), and a negative correlation between TAC and MDA values (r= -0.337, p<0.031) in patients with childhood asthma. However, there was no correlation between these trace elements and albumin content in patient groups. These observations suggest that increased Fe and decreased Se concentrations in patients with childhood asthma may be responsible for the oxidant/antioxidant imbalance. PMID: 14742898 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking >>snip<< All there compounds proved to be iron chelators >>snip<< Rev Port Cardiol. 1992 May;11(5):425-30. Related Articles, Links [Angiotensin-converting enzyme inhibitors as neutralizers of hydroxyl radical] [Article in Portuguese] Mira ML, Silva MM, Queiros MJ, Manso C. Instituto de Quimica Fisiologica. Faculdade de Medicina de Lisboa. Angiotensin converting enzyme inhibitors are utilized in the treatment of essential hypertension and of chronic cardiac failure. They are also employed in the treatment of the myocardial lesion of ischemia-reperfusion, which involves oxygen free radicals. In the present study we investigated the possibility of three angiotensin converting enzyme inhibitors (captopril, enalapril, lisinopril) to act as hydroxyl radical scavengers. The rate constants for reactions of those compounds with .OH were determined using the deoxyribose method. All there compounds proved to be good scavengers of .OH with rate constants of about 10(10)M-1s-1 and are iron chelators specially enalapril. The fact that captopril possesses a thiol group does not confer an higher antioxidative capacity. These results suggest that scavenging of oxygen free radicals may be a possible mechanism contributing to the therapeutic effect of angiotensin converting enzyme inhibitors. PMID: 1325814 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking |
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