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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Asthma / March 2005

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BIG A - 24 Mar 2005 20:24 GMT
I had a sinus surgery in Nov '03.  Since then, I have had severe asthma
- never had it before.  I had severe allergies in the past but never
asthma.  I have been on at least 10 prednisone bursts, numerous
inhalers, etc in the last year and a half.  Nothing helps but
prednisone.

I even had an upper GI to see if GERD was causing my asthma - no signs
- everything looked good.

Now doctors want to maintain me on a low dose of prednisone. I am
currently on 15 mg a day, this just keeps me out of the hospital.  I
would feel good on the high end of bursts but they won't let me do
another one.  Doctors want to give me a xolair shot - ige level 166.

Do I need to be tested for this bacteria that everyone is talking
about.  I used to run 30 miles a week, even when taking high doses of
prednisone, now I can't walk to my car without gasping for air.  I am
miserable.  Please give me some advice.  Thank You!!!
yea - 25 Mar 2005 13:59 GMT
Man, I wish I could help.  I know what you are going through, but
unfortuantely there aren't the answers we are looking for in this board or
with traditional medicine.  I am thinking about trying xolair.  The risk of
cancer associated with that drug bothers me, because my family seems to have
a genetically predisposition for cancer.  Good luck I am not having much of
that.

> I had a sinus surgery in Nov '03.  Since then, I have had severe asthma
> - never had it before.  I had severe allergies in the past but never
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> prednisone, now I can't walk to my car without gasping for air.  I am
> miserable.  Please give me some advice.  Thank You!!!
00doc - 25 Mar 2005 14:24 GMT
Well - first off - people do develop allergies and asthma all through
life so, especially in a person with a history of allergies, this could
just be an adult onset of asthma with no identifiable cause.

However, I do think there are a number of things that should be
considered.

The most obvious consideration is that it is just sinus disease that is
triggering the asthma symptoms. You should be following up with the ENT
and have had some scans to make sure the problem is not there. If it is
prolonged courses of antibiotics, including some that cover anaerobes
(clindamycin, flagyl, Avelox (sort of), and Augmentin would be a few).
Cultures should be taken during any surgeries to make sure there is not
just a resistance problem or a fungal infection. Barring that long
courses of different antibiotics may need to be given to get arround
any resistance which should include drugs that often treat drug
resistance staph and strep like clindamycin, doxycyline, and Bactrim.
4-8 weeks is a commonly needed treatment length for true bacterial
sinusitis.

Another consideration is to make sure you do not have other causes of
nasal and lung symptoms such as sarcoid (ACE level), Wegener's
Granulomatosis (nasal musoca biopsy and ANCA levels), or fingal
infections (Histoplasma and others depending on where you live). I see
they have given some consideration to things like reflux and allergies
which you should agressively persue.

The fact that the problems started after an infectious illness and as
an adult does suggest that mycoplasms or chlaydia infection is possible
and the test couldn't hurt. The problem is that we really haven't
worked out the details on what to test and what to call positive so I
am not sure a negative test should preclude a trial of treatment.

The decision to treat involves weighing the risks vs. the potential
benefits. In your case you have likely been and will likely be again
subjected to long courses of antibiotics so I am not sure you would be
avoiding any risk by not trying a 12 week course of azithromycin. Also
when you compare the antiobiotics to long term or frequent prednisone
then the antibiotics have a clear advantage. Unfortunately, I think
that the highest odds of success you could hope for would be 50% - and
it is probably somewhat less - like around 30%.

The big problem would be which antibiotic to use. The best evidence for
treating chronic chlamydia and mycoplasma infections is for
azithromycin (Zithromax - Z-pack). It seems to work better and faster
than the other ones that might be expected to possibly work. But
azithromycin has a wierd mechanism of action. It tends to concentrate
in the white cells and so the theory goes that it gets transported to
the sites of infection in that way. The serum levels are very low (but
maybe the infection site levels are high) so many docs don't consider
it a good choice for sinusitis. They would probably prefer
erythromycin, doxycycline,  clarithromycin (Biaxin), or one of the
extended spectrum flouroquinolones (Levaquin, Avelox, Tequin) all of
which are listed as killing the two bugs in the books but don't seem to
work as well as the azithromycin in the studies that have neen done on
this situation. So the best drugs for common considerations of sinus
disease would be the others but for these two organisms in particular
would be azithromnycin and you may have a discussion on your hands
about which to use.

Good luck.
BIG A - 25 Mar 2005 15:55 GMT
Now I am depressed - only a 30% chance.  I am having a blood test
today.  I have had nasal spray to treat a possible fungus in my sinuses
but I have never been tested for any.  I also have had allergy tests
done and I am not allergic to anything too major.  In fact I stopped
receiving allergy shots in 2001 because I did not need them.

The reason for sinus surgery in 2003 was polyps and chronic infections.
My sinus troubles have never caused asthma before.  Why should they
now?  If I test positive for the chlamydia pne. bacteria; do you think
it is possible that long term azith. will take care of it?

I have been on antibiotics throughout last year but only for a few
weeks at a time - nothing for a long duration. I am afraid that if I
have a wicked bacteria it is probably a very resistant strain.  I
tested positive for serratia in August and December, these samples were
pulled from my sinuses.  But right now my sinuses seem clear.  Thanks
for any more responses.  Big A
00doc - 25 Mar 2005 19:48 GMT
> Now I am depressed - only a 30% chance.

SOme would say 50% - it hasn;t been firmly worked out but it is
unlikely ot be above that.

> I am having a blood test
> today.  I have had nasal spray to treat a possible fungus in my sinuses
> but I have never been tested for any.

I'm not familiar with that one. WHy do they think you might have a
fungal infection? I assume they cultrued for it during the surgeries.

> The reason for sinus surgery in 2003 was polyps and chronic infections.

You're not taking aspirin or Motrin or anythign like that, are you?

>  My sinus troubles have never caused asthma before.  Why should they
> now?

They can trigger asthma. I'm not sure why it would start now but it
could.

> If I test positive for the chlamydia pne. bacteria; do you think
> it is possible that long term azith. will take care of it?

It might. Then again, like I said before, it is not clear what the
false negative rate is so it is hard to intepret the results.

> I have been on antibiotics throughout last year but only for a few
> weeks at a time - nothing for a long duration.

It depends on the response. Often 2-3 weeks is enough but not always.
It would be worth a sinus CT to find out (they are cheaper than a 3
week course of many antibiotics or surgery.

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00doc

Joy - 27 Mar 2005 13:54 GMT
> > Now I am depressed - only a 30% chance.
>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> It would be worth a sinus CT to find out (they are cheaper than a 3
> week course of many antibiotics or surgery.

Look, the test is not reliable and the rate of STUDY is slow, so you have to
decide if you are going to take matters into your own hands or wait 20
years. You might end up being like Nancy and get no result, you might be
like Maureen and be fixed, or you might be like me and get better, but not
cured. I can only say that if you have no life on regular asthma meds, you
should consider it.

Joy
00doc - 27 Mar 2005 15:22 GMT
> Look, the test is not reliable and the rate of STUDY is
> slow, so you
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> you have no
> life on regular asthma meds, you should consider it.

I'm assuming that this response was to "Big A".

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00doc

Joy - 27 Mar 2005 17:04 GMT
> I'm assuming that this response was to "Big A".

And you, CBI. Thanks for stepping in here while I was out of town. For the
most part, it was a "fair" assessment of the asthma/bacteria debate. I would
like to think that the medical community was working hard on it and that
something would be forthcoming soon.

Joy
BIG A - 29 Mar 2005 17:56 GMT
I just recd results from my blood test for chlamydia pne. bacterium:

IgG  1:256
IgM  1:10
IgA   1:64

my doctor put me on a Z pack.  I have not convinced him I will need to
do another one next week.  I need to stay on it right?
Joy - 29 Mar 2005 18:22 GMT
> I just recd results from my blood test for chlamydia pne. bacterium:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> my doctor put me on a Z pack.  I have not convinced him I will need to
> do another one next week.  I need to stay on it right?

That is right. You need at least 3 months worth or you are wasting your
time. Go to Asthmastory and print out some of the articles by Dr Hahn, take
them in and try and see if he can find his way clear to extend the
antibiotic course. Dr Hahn will also take phone calls from Doctors, so if he
isn't comfortable, encourage him to speak directly to Dr Hahn. Good luck!

Joy
00doc - 29 Mar 2005 18:27 GMT
Different labs have different reference ranges so I could be wrong but
I think that means the IgM (the one that goes up during acute
infections) was negative. The IgG might be positive which would
indicate that you have been infected in the past and leave things a bit
muddy about chronic infections. For future reference he if he does this
again in the future he probably should also test for mycoplasma
pneumoniae.

I personally think that it is pwrth it to send the tests since of they
are positive they really do support the diagnosis and then you can
follow them to monitor therapy and relapses. However, not enough is
known about the sensitivity of the tests in this context to let a
negative result rule out the infection.

If you want to do the treatment that Joy et. al. are talking about you
need to stay on it for more like 12 weeks. What Dr. Hahn does is to
write an rx for #39 250mg tabs and have you take 2 per day for the
first three days then 3 tabs in one dose every week for 12 weeks total.


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