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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Asthma / March 2005

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Crazy Cures for Asthma.  How might they work?

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Richard Friedel - 25 Feb 2005 08:29 GMT
Paul Lehrer's study on "Biofeedback treatment for asthma" with 94
experimental subjects seems to have been reasonably well accepted by
medical journalists, see "Promising Study About Effects of
Biofeedback on Asthma" in Doctor's Guide
(http://www.docguide.com/dg.nsf/PrintPrint/D7BAAFC0476529C985256EEF005370E7)

Lehrer's point is that the so-called HRV (heart rate variability, the
capacity of the heart rate to vary in health) as measured with suitable
sophisticated instruments (HeartMath, Heart Tuner etc) is also a
criterion for asthma severity. Training to improve it would be a
treatment for asthma.

HRV data have chiefly been used so far as a reliable, scientific method
of assessing the risk of sudden cardiac death.

1999 Lehrer did a paper on the salutary effects of Zazen (breathing as
practised by Zen monks) via changes in HRV.

If this principle for assessing the effectiveness for asthma treatments
scientifically becomes accepted, then asthmatics may soon be doing yogi
headstands (sirsasana, see PubMed) to quote one possible example, which
change the HRV.  Regards, Richard Friedel.
Bob - 25 Feb 2005 15:16 GMT
>Paul Lehrer's study on "Biofeedback treatment for asthma" with 94
>experimental subjects seems to have been reasonably well accepted by
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>headstands (sirsasana, see PubMed) to quote one possible example, which
>change the HRV.  Regards, Richard Friedel.

In this day of increasing concerns about atheroschlerosis
(contributing to heart disease and stroke), osteoporosis, vertebral
disc degeneration and a litigious legal environment, I would
recommend NOT doing headstands.

If you look at the size of the vertebrae in the spinal column, you
will notice that they are small at the top, and get progressively
larger toward the bottom.  The reason for this is because more body
weight is borne by each successive vertebra and disc.

This is best seen in the lateral, or side view:
http://www.netterimages.com/grossanatomy/images/image1.jpg

Now, what bright individual came up with the idea of standing on one's
head, loading these small vertebrae and discs with the entire body
weight?  I do not know, but it was not a gerontologist, a
cardiologist, or a chiropractor.  It was no doubt someone who had no
clue about the risks associated with this particular posture.

Some think headstands will help breathing.   Well...good luck.
Hopefully one will not have a stroke or herniate one or more cervical
discs in the process.
00doc - 26 Feb 2005 02:18 GMT
> Some think headstands will help breathing.   Well...good
> luck.
> Hopefully one will not have a stroke or herniate one or
> more cervical
> discs in the process.

I'm not sure how having the weight of the abdominal organs
pressing up (OK down if you are on your head) on the
diaphragm is supposed to help breathing. You could just
tighten a corset around your waist until you turn blue for a
similar effect that will not risk cervical injury.

Signature

00doc

Bob - 27 Feb 2005 20:06 GMT
>> Some think headstands will help breathing.   Well...good
>> luck.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>tighten a corset around your waist until you turn blue for a
>similar effect that will not risk cervical injury.

Yes, either way it's a waist of time singin' the blues...
aroberts - 01 Mar 2005 00:35 GMT
Of corset is--it's a cinch that you've taken that theory down a notch.
The guy probably had had a few belts when he thought that one up, since
that practice will undoubtely give one gird.
Bob - 01 Mar 2005 01:33 GMT
>Of corset is--it's a cinch that you've taken that theory down a notch.
>The guy probably had had a few belts when he thought that one up, since
>that practice will undoubtely give one gird.

Sew, with his button the air,
our hero straps himself up, if the wallet him...
ARoberts - 01 Mar 2005 03:11 GMT
>>Of corset is--it's a cinch that you've taken that theory down a notch.
>>The guy probably had had a few belts when he thought that one up, since
>>that practice will undoubtely give one gird.
>
> Sew, with his button the air,
> our hero straps himself up, if the wallet him...

Needles to say, there's a thread of truth to that.  It seams that he was
doing some bobbin and weaving by darting in here with that loopy theory, but
the yoke is on him.  I don't mean to ruffle him, but this is becoming a
pattern, and it's just tailored to confuse the issue. He has braid too many
theories here for us to not draw a curtain on him.

If he were pressed (and weren't biased), he could probably iron out some of
the wrinkles, and the theory wouldn't appear to be such an off-the-cuff yarn
nor im-material.  I gusset is all in one's perspective, but it just doesn't
suit reality, and has too many frills.  Even though I felt that we were
being taken to the cleaners, at this point, I'm dyeing to find closure, so
that it doesn't warp my outlook.  I think that it is important to achieve
some valance between science and fancy.

As it is, we should pleat with hem to take a sleeve of absence, because he
looks like a knit-wit.
Joy - 01 Mar 2005 06:27 GMT
>  As it is, we should pleat with hem to take a sleeve of absence, because he
> looks like a knit-wit.
LMAO

Joy
Joy - 01 Mar 2005 06:33 GMT
Why don't you guys just go out there and replace Chris Rock? You clearly
have the edge!!!!

Joy
Bob - 01 Mar 2005 16:15 GMT
>Why don't you guys just go out there and replace Chris Rock? You clearly
>have the edge!!!!
>
>Joy

It seems that when the dirt is removed from the Rock,
what is left is just a clod.  
ARoberts - 02 Mar 2005 14:06 GMT
>>Why don't you guys just go out there and replace Chris Rock? You clearly
>>have the edge!!!!
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> It seems that when the dirt is removed from the Rock,
> what is left is just a clod.

:-)
Bob - 02 Mar 2005 02:13 GMT
>>>Of corset is--it's a cinch that you've taken that theory down a notch.
>>>The guy probably had had a few belts when he thought that one up, since
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Needles to say, there's a thread of truth to that.

Perhaps he just wanted another "out-of-pocket" experience.

> It seams that he was
>doing some bobbin and weaving by darting in here with that loopy theory, but
>the yoke is on him.

<reams of lovely material snipped>

> As it is, we should pleat with hem to take a sleeve of absence, because he
>looks like a knit-wit.

If he weaves, Wichud will wanduh, and wanduh, until he finds his twue
goowoo.
Richard Friedel - 26 Feb 2005 10:46 GMT
Well, there seems to be an astounding variety of ways of improving the
HRV.  Do  Google searches with
"hrv heart training"
"hrv heart training qi-training" for Chinese shadow boxing
"hrv heart training yoga"
"hrv heart training hearttuner" etc. etc.

Some of the methods would be too likely to provoke attacks of asthma
(hyperventilation in yoga exercises), to demand too much physical
condition or lead into extravagant New Age fantasies and years of
morbid soul searching. Qi-training (tai chi, qigong etc.) might be the
most acceptable.

However there is this clear message by Paul Lehrer, and its reception
in expert circles, to the effect that there is a different scientific
way of interpreting asthma. This would mean a new rationale, a paradigm
shift and the view that present asthma thinking should be replaced by a
better alternative.

Putting it differently Lehrer promises a way of  getting hard data on
yoga etc. so far known to have powerful but poorly reproducible
effects,  for asthmatics. Regards,  Richard Friedel
jackmallory@webtv.net - 27 Feb 2005 16:59 GMT
Well thank you Dr. Bob!

He writes:
"...In this day of increasing concerns about atheroschlerosis
(contributing to heart disease and stroke), osteoporosis, vertebral disc
degeneration and a litigious legal environment, I would recommend NOT
doing headstands.

If you look at the size of the vertebrae in the spinal column, you will
notice that they are small at the top, and get progressively larger
toward the bottom. The reason for this is because more body weight is
borne by each successive vertebra and disc. This is best seen in the
lateral, or side view:

http://www.netterimages.com/grossanatomy/images/image1.jpg

"Now, what bright individual came up with the idea of standing on one's
head, loading these small vertebrae and discs with the entire body
weight? I do not know, but it was not a gerontologist, a cardiologist,
or a chiropractor. It was no doubt someone who had no clue about the
risks associated with this particular posture...."

I had never before thought of the size of the vertibrae viz a viz upper
to lower and why the upper are smaller and the lower larger.  Makes
anatomical sense.

                     **********

As for Richard, is this a new Richard?  Really appreciate seeing a
handful of theories new to me.  However zany they might seem, there
might be something in any one or all of them.  Thanks Richard.---Jack
Richard Friedel - 28 Feb 2005 06:37 GMT
The theory that Paul Lehrer is backing is that there is as simple
method of getting scientific data, of a sort, on any altmed (or
mainstream) stuff.. It would be pouring oil on troubled waters and
uprating altmed approaches such as yoga.  Regards, Richard Friedel
 
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