Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Asthma / March 2005
Crazy Cures for Asthma. How might they work?
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Richard Friedel - 25 Feb 2005 08:29 GMT Paul Lehrer's study on "Biofeedback treatment for asthma" with 94 experimental subjects seems to have been reasonably well accepted by medical journalists, see "Promising Study About Effects of Biofeedback on Asthma" in Doctor's Guide (http://www.docguide.com/dg.nsf/PrintPrint/D7BAAFC0476529C985256EEF005370E7)
Lehrer's point is that the so-called HRV (heart rate variability, the capacity of the heart rate to vary in health) as measured with suitable sophisticated instruments (HeartMath, Heart Tuner etc) is also a criterion for asthma severity. Training to improve it would be a treatment for asthma.
HRV data have chiefly been used so far as a reliable, scientific method of assessing the risk of sudden cardiac death.
1999 Lehrer did a paper on the salutary effects of Zazen (breathing as practised by Zen monks) via changes in HRV.
If this principle for assessing the effectiveness for asthma treatments scientifically becomes accepted, then asthmatics may soon be doing yogi headstands (sirsasana, see PubMed) to quote one possible example, which change the HRV. Regards, Richard Friedel.
Bob - 25 Feb 2005 15:16 GMT >Paul Lehrer's study on "Biofeedback treatment for asthma" with 94 >experimental subjects seems to have been reasonably well accepted by [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >headstands (sirsasana, see PubMed) to quote one possible example, which >change the HRV. Regards, Richard Friedel. In this day of increasing concerns about atheroschlerosis (contributing to heart disease and stroke), osteoporosis, vertebral disc degeneration and a litigious legal environment, I would recommend NOT doing headstands.
If you look at the size of the vertebrae in the spinal column, you will notice that they are small at the top, and get progressively larger toward the bottom. The reason for this is because more body weight is borne by each successive vertebra and disc.
This is best seen in the lateral, or side view: http://www.netterimages.com/grossanatomy/images/image1.jpg
Now, what bright individual came up with the idea of standing on one's head, loading these small vertebrae and discs with the entire body weight? I do not know, but it was not a gerontologist, a cardiologist, or a chiropractor. It was no doubt someone who had no clue about the risks associated with this particular posture.
Some think headstands will help breathing. Well...good luck. Hopefully one will not have a stroke or herniate one or more cervical discs in the process.
00doc - 26 Feb 2005 02:18 GMT > Some think headstands will help breathing. Well...good > luck. > Hopefully one will not have a stroke or herniate one or > more cervical > discs in the process. I'm not sure how having the weight of the abdominal organs pressing up (OK down if you are on your head) on the diaphragm is supposed to help breathing. You could just tighten a corset around your waist until you turn blue for a similar effect that will not risk cervical injury.
 Signature 00doc
Bob - 27 Feb 2005 20:06 GMT >> Some think headstands will help breathing. Well...good >> luck. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >tighten a corset around your waist until you turn blue for a >similar effect that will not risk cervical injury. Yes, either way it's a waist of time singin' the blues...
aroberts - 01 Mar 2005 00:35 GMT Of corset is--it's a cinch that you've taken that theory down a notch. The guy probably had had a few belts when he thought that one up, since that practice will undoubtely give one gird.
Bob - 01 Mar 2005 01:33 GMT >Of corset is--it's a cinch that you've taken that theory down a notch. >The guy probably had had a few belts when he thought that one up, since >that practice will undoubtely give one gird. Sew, with his button the air, our hero straps himself up, if the wallet him...
ARoberts - 01 Mar 2005 03:11 GMT >>Of corset is--it's a cinch that you've taken that theory down a notch. >>The guy probably had had a few belts when he thought that one up, since >>that practice will undoubtely give one gird. > > Sew, with his button the air, > our hero straps himself up, if the wallet him... Needles to say, there's a thread of truth to that. It seams that he was doing some bobbin and weaving by darting in here with that loopy theory, but the yoke is on him. I don't mean to ruffle him, but this is becoming a pattern, and it's just tailored to confuse the issue. He has braid too many theories here for us to not draw a curtain on him.
If he were pressed (and weren't biased), he could probably iron out some of the wrinkles, and the theory wouldn't appear to be such an off-the-cuff yarn nor im-material. I gusset is all in one's perspective, but it just doesn't suit reality, and has too many frills. Even though I felt that we were being taken to the cleaners, at this point, I'm dyeing to find closure, so that it doesn't warp my outlook. I think that it is important to achieve some valance between science and fancy.
As it is, we should pleat with hem to take a sleeve of absence, because he looks like a knit-wit.
Joy - 01 Mar 2005 06:27 GMT > As it is, we should pleat with hem to take a sleeve of absence, because he > looks like a knit-wit. LMAO
Joy
Joy - 01 Mar 2005 06:33 GMT Why don't you guys just go out there and replace Chris Rock? You clearly have the edge!!!!
Joy
Bob - 01 Mar 2005 16:15 GMT >Why don't you guys just go out there and replace Chris Rock? You clearly >have the edge!!!! > >Joy It seems that when the dirt is removed from the Rock, what is left is just a clod.
ARoberts - 02 Mar 2005 14:06 GMT >>Why don't you guys just go out there and replace Chris Rock? You clearly >>have the edge!!!! [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It seems that when the dirt is removed from the Rock, > what is left is just a clod. :-)
Bob - 02 Mar 2005 02:13 GMT >>>Of corset is--it's a cinch that you've taken that theory down a notch. >>>The guy probably had had a few belts when he thought that one up, since [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Needles to say, there's a thread of truth to that. Perhaps he just wanted another "out-of-pocket" experience.
> It seams that he was >doing some bobbin and weaving by darting in here with that loopy theory, but >the yoke is on him. <reams of lovely material snipped>
> As it is, we should pleat with hem to take a sleeve of absence, because he >looks like a knit-wit. If he weaves, Wichud will wanduh, and wanduh, until he finds his twue goowoo.
Richard Friedel - 26 Feb 2005 10:46 GMT Well, there seems to be an astounding variety of ways of improving the HRV. Do Google searches with "hrv heart training" "hrv heart training qi-training" for Chinese shadow boxing "hrv heart training yoga" "hrv heart training hearttuner" etc. etc.
Some of the methods would be too likely to provoke attacks of asthma (hyperventilation in yoga exercises), to demand too much physical condition or lead into extravagant New Age fantasies and years of morbid soul searching. Qi-training (tai chi, qigong etc.) might be the most acceptable.
However there is this clear message by Paul Lehrer, and its reception in expert circles, to the effect that there is a different scientific way of interpreting asthma. This would mean a new rationale, a paradigm shift and the view that present asthma thinking should be replaced by a better alternative.
Putting it differently Lehrer promises a way of getting hard data on yoga etc. so far known to have powerful but poorly reproducible effects, for asthmatics. Regards, Richard Friedel
jackmallory@webtv.net - 27 Feb 2005 16:59 GMT Well thank you Dr. Bob!
He writes: "...In this day of increasing concerns about atheroschlerosis (contributing to heart disease and stroke), osteoporosis, vertebral disc degeneration and a litigious legal environment, I would recommend NOT doing headstands.
If you look at the size of the vertebrae in the spinal column, you will notice that they are small at the top, and get progressively larger toward the bottom. The reason for this is because more body weight is borne by each successive vertebra and disc. This is best seen in the lateral, or side view:
http://www.netterimages.com/grossanatomy/images/image1.jpg
"Now, what bright individual came up with the idea of standing on one's head, loading these small vertebrae and discs with the entire body weight? I do not know, but it was not a gerontologist, a cardiologist, or a chiropractor. It was no doubt someone who had no clue about the risks associated with this particular posture...."
I had never before thought of the size of the vertibrae viz a viz upper to lower and why the upper are smaller and the lower larger. Makes anatomical sense.
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As for Richard, is this a new Richard? Really appreciate seeing a handful of theories new to me. However zany they might seem, there might be something in any one or all of them. Thanks Richard.---Jack
Richard Friedel - 28 Feb 2005 06:37 GMT The theory that Paul Lehrer is backing is that there is as simple method of getting scientific data, of a sort, on any altmed (or mainstream) stuff.. It would be pouring oil on troubled waters and uprating altmed approaches such as yoga. Regards, Richard Friedel
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