boy, kate, you really know how to stir the pot! and there have been no
debates on asa for so long! too quiet around here, huh?

2.  What other blanket philosophical statement do you disagree with and
why?
(expressing your feelings about it, and not just your logic, is also
allowed

i will tell you the one that gets me, but i bet i'm one of the few here
who is bothered by this: "things happen for a reason."

i'm going to quote one of my characters, twenty-something-year-old
Lacey, who responded to this statement better than i can (hmm. is that
a sign of mental illness? quoting one's characters?)

eleven-year-old mackenzie, whose mother died, asks Lacey if she
believes things happen for a reason. Lacey says: "I guess it gives
people comfort to think there's a reason for everything, but I don't
believe it myself. I think people who have something terrible happen to
them have to try to make the best of things. That's our task. That's
harder to do than just thinking that things happen for a reason and
letting it go at that, don't you think? Much harder. . . "

i agree with lacey. she's a smart cookie.

diane

The thought "that which does not kill you makes you stronger"  sounds good
and sounds reassuring.  And it fits in nicely with the bible notion that God
will not test us beyond our strength.

Personally I don't believe in either.  Somethings are truly unbearable.
Some damage, either physical or mental does not heal.  And time does not
heal all wounds.

Of course none of us get out of this alive so I don't see much importance in
the argument in any case.

Jo

2005-09-25, Responding to d'huit...

[...]

"There's no smoke without fire"

Explain smoke-bombs then. ;)

You've touched an interesting subject here. We do indeed
tend to "soak up" these little gems, as you say, without
really questioning what they actually contain as a
"payload".

I've found myself several times asking myself "Hang on a
minute! Where did I get THAT idea from?" only to find one of
those old "blanket philosophical statements" has been an
unquestioned reference for years.

Another thing I'd ask (just for fun you understand ;) is
this...

How many times have you discovered something you thought you
thought, actually turned out to be an advertising "message"?

Ack, O'Kate,

  I'll answer as a trained thinker. You'd be amazed at how many people have
never been taught thinking as a subject in and of itself. There are far too
few trained thinkers around -- but sumbuddy's gotta do it.

  A lil' bit of arsenic IS good for ya and indeed makes ya stronger. Just a
wee little bit in your diet, now and then. Don't add it: most of us get it
from soils or from fresh veggies. Won't kill ya...but a bunch of arsenic
ingested repeatedly fertrue will. So there. :-)

  Feeling-wise...it is easier going thru hard things more than once...b'cuz
just the familiarity of the hard times takes the edge offa the hardness of
'em. I'm rather unique in that perspective since I dunno anyone else who had
Andrew, and Charley, and Frances and Jeanne. By the time Frances rolled thru
we were all strong 'round here. Friends comment about how strong I
am....wasn't easy at all getting here but I obviously ain't been killed by
none of the very horrid thingies as of yet.

    Lastly...steel that isn't tempered is brittle. It's gotta be red-hot
then plunged into very cold water to temper it and make all the layers
adhere to each other as strongly as possible. It's a rather spectacular show
of steam and popping and noise.  Makes it anneal so it won't come apart.
Hard and able to be honed to a fine edge rather than friable and brittle.

   I'm only brittle about those who think I'm bitter. No way...hard times
make ya optimistic. If I got thru THAT and then THAT....ya know? YOU,
yerself, do know, Katester.

   I do know for a fact if ya truly understand the source of the adages
you'll know why any particular one lasts thru multiple generations. There's
a kernel of truth that doesn't change no matter what mood yer in. It's
really important that kids talk about all kinds of things with their
elders...so the cultural values get passed on. Who can argue against "Loose
lips sink ships" even tho' they literally don't anymore? They did for my own
grandparents and that's good enuff for me....and for all who understand how
important it was back then not to let loved ones ashore know where you were
or were going. :-) If there's one thing that Larry R.shared well at ASA it
was the historical context of adages. One can never think of  brass balls
and monkeys the same since he shared that. <g>

Hugs from Rosie

With the help of tools such as MRI imaging, able to detect actual
changes in brain anatomy, it appears that what doesn't kill you may
still permanently weaken you. There have been several investigations
recently, one of the most extensive with child abuse victims showing
that damage done is irreversible and extensive. Neurons are completely
killed off and in many cases the ability for the affected part of the
brain to produce new neurons is destroyed. Not a good thing.

It looks to me (from limited reading) that a valid argument based on
good science can now be made that...///that which doesn't kill you
'CAN' make you weaker forever///...

johnie

sorry I said that. Oh well you live and learn.

Personally speaking, it does, eventually, make me stronger in some ways,
perhaps mentally while weakening me physically, etc. but I am stronger in
some ways.  For example, my first huge flare up of PA taught me I *could*
survive in enomrous pain - I surely didn't want to do it again, but there was
reassurance and strngth in knowing that I had done it.  But I come from a
generally positive, strong, supportive family of survivors.

People who haven't had the emotional advantages I've had in my family though
can be greatly weakened by trials and may end up more withdrawn or fearful of
the world.  I find the people who make that statement in reference to their
own experiences are generally the ones who are made stronger by "that which
doesn't kill" them.  But I will never say that someone else.  I think it can
be ultimately a harmful thing to say to someone in the midst of suffering by
seeming to discount what they are experiencing at the time.  I stick to hugs,
hang in there's, listening and helping however I can.

my biggies are "It's God's will" and "God doesn't give you more than you can
handle".  My arguments with those statements are fine points, but important
ones to me in my own journey of faith.  I strongly believe that God created a
world set up to operate  on certain physical laws.  For instance, if you get
the right combination of genes and environment, you get an illness.  God,
however you draw close to Him/Her (I personally see God as *beyond* gender,
but our language doesn't allow for that!) will provide the courage, strength,
resources, and grace that you need to get through whatever it is.  I  don't
believe it is EVER God's will that we suffer in any way, but rather it is
God's will that we turn to God and to others around us to help and guide us
through our trials and tribulations with as little suffering as possible.