Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Arthritis / September 2005
Katrina
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shenmei9@aol.com - 01 Sep 2005 22:12 GMT I am on a quick lunch break where I am doing a training for the Red Cross (a little odd since I have never worked for the red cross and don't really know their program but I am a trainer and taining is a process) The Red Cross is doing accelerated trainings right now if any of you have ever thought of doing what is usually a 6 week program, this might be a good time to take this volunteer training.
I signed up on craigslist last night to adopt a family from new orleans and got a call at 7:00 this morning from a lesbiam couple with a baby who evacuated to texas. One of them used to live in SF. I talked to them for a while and I think they are my family so while I am saddened beyond belief by their plight, I am also a little excited that I found a family so quickly.
I think I am going to Houston as I have a strong background in working with people in that kind of emergency housing setup. I know the protocol psychological support for disaster victims like the back of my arthritic hand so I think I am going to be heading out on Sunday. I'll get to meet my guests on Saturday, introduce them to people, show them the house, and get to the airport. I don't know if I will be doing direct client services or whether I will be training but hopefully I will be working with kids.
I am so amazed at the grassroots responses from individuals and the innovative way communications are happening through things like craigslist but I have to tell you that I am royally unhappy with my government. This is going to show the strenght of Americans but certainly is not yet the shining hour for politicians.
I am going to take my laptop so I may be able to give you updates from Houston
Rosemarie Shiver - 01 Sep 2005 22:56 GMT Congrats, M,
On both the new family and the training. My heart will be with ya the whole time; wish I could be there, too. Ya know we're incredibly proud of ya, doncha?
Q-Y Hugs from Rosie
 Signature "If you wanna get it done, you gotta fight for yourself." -- Meat Loaf, Bat Outta Hell II
> I am on a quick lunch break where I am doing a training for the Red > Cross (a little odd since I have never worked for the red cross and [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > I am going to take my laptop so I may be able to give you updates from > Houston Diane - 01 Sep 2005 23:32 GMT thanks for doing all you're doing, M. i'm so glad you'll be safe in houston, with refrigerated enbrel, doing what you do best. keep us posted if you can.
diane
Kelly Cobb - 01 Sep 2005 23:54 GMT Just be safe and know we are sending supportive, healthy vibes for you and your new family.
Hugs, Kelly C.
> I am on a quick lunch break where I am doing a training for the Red > Cross (a little odd since I have never worked for the red cross and [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > I am going to take my laptop so I may be able to give you updates from > Houston Harvey R. Stone - 02 Sep 2005 00:35 GMT This is going to show the strenght of Americans but
> certainly is not yet the shining hour for politicians. > > I am going to take my laptop so I may be able to give you updates from > Houston Please do..... There are people in this newsgroup that wonder about you when you are gone for so long. I would like to read what you think is taking place and I hope you can do that in a factual way and not a political way. Please do not forget that it was politicians that got together to fill the Astrodome from the Superdome. The Astrodome is owned and run by Harris county and it is paid for with taxes like mine. San Antonio is going to fill theirs too just like Houston has done. The people that have come from the area hit are desperate and beaten down, frustrated and tired. It is really heart breaking. Just to show you that this is not about politics,,,,, the country is headed by a republican , the city is very much run by democrats and the gov. is a republican but state politics are run by democrats.... What is being done IS NOT ABOUT politics. It is about people helping people in a time of need and if you come to help,,,,,, it is needed. Harv
jb - 02 Sep 2005 05:38 GMT well said Harv. you are right, this is about helping others. we must all do this.
janice
| This is going to show the strenght of Americans but | > certainly is not yet the shining hour for politicians. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] | time of need and if you come to help,,,,,, it is needed. | Harv Nann Bell - 02 Sep 2005 12:30 GMT Ah, Melinda, I am so glad you have found ways to help that do not endanger your health too much. I knew you wouldn't be able to just sit and watch!
As for blaming the government, well, I am no fan of the current administraion, but much of this I cannot lay at their feet. My family roots go back several generations in Louisiana and I know too much about its politics to lay much of this at the feet of the feds. Neither the NO city government nor the state government has been willing to see the depth of potential disaster for NO. Their disaster plans included no provisions for this degree of flooding, power loss and communication loss at once. That is truly shameful as everyone has known NO was living on borrowed time for more than a century.
(For more on that, a good source is a Scientific American article from 2001: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&articleID=00060286-CB58-1315- 8B5883414B7F0000)
Louisiana's state politics have allowed development in the delta that should never have been permitted and have allowed the oil industry to do pretty much whatever it wanted in the area. Heck, a cousin in the state governemnt has been fighting these battles for years and has been quite discouraged. NO has been a disaster waiting to happen and no one has been willing to see the true depths of such a disaster. In reality, NO should not be rebuilt at the delta and certainly should not be rebuilt in the same way. I don't know if any politicians at any level will have the stomach to say that though. They truly need to begin to see the Misisissippi River/Atchafalaya River delta as one unit and to protect the surrounding wetlands.
Meanwhile, I do consider it a true shame that in the richest country in the world, there were no provisions to assist in evacuation for the people who couldn't afford gas or who don't even own cars. How were tehy supposed to leave? In a city with a 30-40% poverty rate, that was a major contributor to the loss of life in this flood. I have no idea of how to address that issue in future storms though.......
 Signature Nann remove the Gator cheer to email me Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare
Walt Hanks - 02 Sep 2005 13:48 GMT > Ah, Melinda, I am so glad you have found ways to help that do not endanger > your health too much. I knew you wouldn't be able to just sit and watch! > > As for blaming the government, well, I am no fan of the current > administraion, but much of this I cannot lay at their feet. (snipped great commentary)>
> Meanwhile, I do consider it a true shame that in the richest country in > the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > issue > in future storms though....... There is only one answer to that question, and it does not involve the government.
The responsibility for disaster planning begins with the individual. We have been told for decades that everyone needs a 72-hour kit, but how many have one? We have been told for decades that everyone should have an evacuation plan, but how many have one? I can put a kit together for less than $50, and a plan together in an hour or two.
For those who do not have the capacity to evacuate on their own, the next level of responsibility is the families. I know several people who, upon hearing of the impending storm, drove to NO or Biloxi to pick up their elderly or poor family members. Have those of us who can not drive ourselves away from impending disaster developed a plan with a friend or family member for evacuation?
The third level of responsibility is the local community organization to which a person belongs, which means primarily churches. In our church everyone is assigned a "home teacher," a man who is responsible for looking after the spiritual and temporal welfare of the family or individual. I have 11 families I am assigned to. I know that 3 of them have no capacity to evacuate on their own, so should such an evacuation become necessary, it is my responsibility to see that they are taken to safety. We have evacuation plans developed, resources identified, and a communication system in place to handle this type of emergency. Because of this, no member of our church in LA or MS was killed or seriously injured.
All of this requires forethought and a willingness to act BEFORE the disaster strikes, when possible. Everyone in NO and Biloxi had at least 24 hours notice (72 really) and could have put an evacuation plan into action, had they had such a plan.
The only effective and feasible roles for local and state governments is to train the people ahead of time, to maintain order during the evacuation, and to provide emergency medical care as needed. Anything else is simply beyond the capacity of any government organization. The federal role is simply to provide monetary, material, and technical assistance.
Let us all learn a lesson from Katrina. We are all vulnerable to something, and we all need to have a plan in place. Will we do so?
Walt
Harvey R. Stone - 02 Sep 2005 14:18 GMT Thank you Walt for the thoughts from a clear mind. For myself,,, your words have brought thoughts of more I can do in the world around me to take better care of the people in my life that I love. The truth of it is that we should expect more from our local people in places of power while we do what we can. As we watch and learn from what takes place over the next few months,,,, we can ask ourselves was this action constructive done by those in power. How do they use this power and did it help people or the problems?? So much to think about,,, so much to do. Harv
>> Ah, Melinda, I am so glad you have found ways to help that do not >> endanger [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > > Walt diclidophora@yahoo.co.uk - 02 Sep 2005 16:01 GMT Fortunately I cannot remember a disaster of this magnitude in the UK, since WW2.
We can only look on aghast at this hurricane wreaked catastrophe and thank God it didn't hit us. We wish your people well and hope that relief is provided very soon for those who are suffering.
Walt's note above deserves to be read and digested by all of us, whether or not we are handicapped. I am sure he is right when he says that forward planning has the potential to save many lives. This really is something we should take note of and learn from this terrible disaster.
Who would help us ? I simply don't know, but I should!
Peter
Rosemarie Shiver - 02 Sep 2005 18:14 GMT Heya, Walt,
I can tell you haven't had to implement your plan, much. Even with 72 hours notice there will be many many that won't get out in time. In places like NO and the Florida Keys and here in the middle of Florida, even, the population is just too large to get everyone out in time. Gridlock and accidents block evacuation routes. In the day b4 the storm the highways were made contra-flow and few if any were allowed in. 300 to 400 miles from landfall of Katrina, to the northeast, was damaged as well...so thousands of evacuees got caught in the same storm to a lesser extent even after evacuating according to plan.
Your $50 kit would last a coupla days...and then what? Then it's blame the victim time. Sorry, been there, been put thru being blamed. More than once.
A plan is nice, a kit is fine....but both wouldn't have done much in this case, wouldn't have helped Charley's victims at all and wouldn't have made a hint of difference to those in Andrew's path. Sooner or later the people do have to come back to less than nothing and rebuild lives and communties. Unless you'd personally like to take a dozen or so survivors in for the next 2 years instead of blaming them for not having a homemade kit?
Why don't you say the same for those displaced by the earthquakes in Calif. or the western wildfires? I guess those who live in the west are due compassion but forget ppl. in the south, huh? You might wanna examine what that says about YOU. ;-(
Sad Hugs from Rosie
 Signature "If you wanna get it done, you gotta fight for yourself." -- Meat Loaf, Bat Outta Hell II
> > > Ah, Melinda, I am so glad you have found ways to help that do not endanger [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > > Walt Walt Hanks - 02 Sep 2005 19:17 GMT > Heya, Walt, > > I can tell you haven't had to implement your plan, much. Even with 72 > hours notice there will be many many that won't get out in time. I live in one of the most densely populated areas of this country, the Baltimore/DC metroplex. There are 9 million people who all use the same two highways, I-95 and I-70. This has all been taken into consideration in our family plan.
> Your $50 kit would last a coupla days...and then what? Then it's > blame > the victim time. Sorry, been there, been put thru being blamed. More than > once. FEMA, the Red Cross, and every other emergency preparedness or disaster relief agency I know promotes the 72-hour kit. Why? Because it normally takes 72 hours for emergency personel to get to the victims. The kit sustains life until rescue workers and supplies can reach you.
> A plan is nice, a kit is fine....but both wouldn't have done much in > this case, wouldn't have helped Charley's victims at all and wouldn't have [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > for the next 2 years instead of blaming them for not having a homemade > kit? Nobody blamed anyone. What I said is that the government isn't going to, and can't even possibly try, to do everything for us that needs to be done. We have to take responsibility for ourselves.
> Why don't you say the same for those displaced by the earthquakes in > Calif. or the western wildfires? I guess those who live in the west are > due > compassion but forget ppl. in the south, huh? You might wanna examine what > that says about YOU. ;-( I'm sorry that you are so bitter Rosie. I have been through wildfires, earthquakes, blizzards, and tornadoes, and have used my kit and my plans. I've also been caught unprepared, and I know what that feels like too.
None of us knows when a natural disaster will strike. But we all know that one can, and we have to be prepared. You say that my recommendations (actually, their FEMAs) would not have made a difference. But, they did. For those in our church who followed the recommendations, and for many others who were prepared and acted early, it made a difference.
From every bad thing, lessons can be learned. All I am saying is that we all must learn from what has happened and prepare ourselves accordingly. It is the notion that "nothing would have made a difference" that perpetuates the tragedy.
Walt
Rosemarie Shiver - 02 Sep 2005 20:25 GMT Walt, dear,
First, I'm not bitter. Second, up until now Andrew was the worst natural disaster this country has ever known. Your 72 hour kit would have not made a difference and you just don't know....short of severe war destruction, what that was like and for how long.
THIS with Katrina is worse than whut we went thru with Andrew and the long term effects will be longer term. Yes, Harvey has had somewhat of a taste what this is like..but for a shorter term.
IOW...you've never ever seen anything even approaching this mass devestation and you don't know what you're talking about.
I hope many months from now some of the Katrina survivors read this and know a previous survior stood up for 'em against these simple-minded solutions that people actually think will solve anything. Yes, it is the government's responsibility to use tax dollars to save life and limb. Yours, mine, everyone's tax dollars in a disaster....for as long as it takes. In Andrew it took about a year to get families on their feet. Your simple-minded statements mean nothing in the scope of this disaster. Four states and milions upon millions of refugees, not to meantion thousands dead and dying. Disaster means more than a 3 day kit could ever possibly begin to assuage.
Hugs from Rosie
 Signature "If you wanna get it done, you gotta fight for yourself." -- Meat Loaf, Bat Outta Hell II
> > > Heya, Walt, [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > Walt Harvey R. Stone - 02 Sep 2005 19:28 GMT > Heya, Walt, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > the victim time. Sorry, been there, been put thru being blamed. More than > once. awwwhhh Rosie, God bless you and those that think like you. THOSE ARE TWO DAYS MORE THAT YOU HAVE TO HELP YOURSELF AND THOSE AROUND YOU..... It takes that long for plans, people, whatever to take action and start to answer problems. SOOOOOO, you are saying don't even be ready that much????? BLAME,,,,, its too late to blame for the people in the sh.t,,,, pardon my english,,,,,, What are you saying that helps people to help themselves????
> A plan is nice, a kit is fine....but both wouldn't have done much in > this case, wouldn't have helped Charley's victims at all and wouldn't have > made a hint of difference to those in Andrew's path. Sooner or later the > people do have to come back to less than nothing and rebuild lives and > communties. Yes,,,, they do if they want to live there in the future. Are you just realizing that nature is more powerful than mans futile efforts??? Are you just realizing that what man does or does not do could mean nothing when nature is moving in another directiond?
Unless you'd personally like to take a dozen or so survivors in
> for the next 2 years instead of blaming them for not having a homemade > kit? I am sorry but the words above has logic that is insane.
> Why don't you say the same for those displaced by the earthquakes in > Calif. or the western wildfires? Another look at nature and how powerful it is. Burning and/or removing tree and brush from around your home for 40 yards is much the same as Walts 3 day plans. IT IS NOT THE GOVERNMENTS FAULT IF PEOPLE DO NOT DO THAT.
I guess those who live in the west are due
> compassion but forget ppl. in the south, huh? You might wanna examine what > that says about YOU. ;-( I really do not want to comment on the assumptions in your words because it might bring actions on your part that are uncontrolled which would only make things worse for you........ Not for Walt who is well grounded in the meaning of his words.
> Sad Hugs from Rosie No hugs please without showing your hands first and Walt does not need this kind of hug.
Harv who is very angry now and is choosing not to say any more. But if you need to,,,, bring it.......
Rosemarie Shiver - 02 Sep 2005 20:29 GMT Harv, dear,
I know you know a little, but you don't know enuff. You've never experienced anything remotely close...your floods were a drop in the bucket compared to this.
Walt can be so very easy going 'cuz he's very ignorant of what's involved and doesn't WANT to know...he wants to be superior to those who couldn't get out.
You know better but don't sound like it. How 'bout a higher level of compassion and dedication to those who are suffering now, and will be for a long time to come? Years to come? You don't have the excuse of distance from it and wanting to be ignorant of the severity like Walt does.
Brought On With Hugs from Rosie
 Signature "If you wanna get it done, you gotta fight for yourself." -- Meat Loaf, Bat Outta Hell II
> > > Heya, Walt, [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > Harv who is very angry now and is choosing not to say any more. But > if you need to,,,, bring it....... Walt Hanks - 02 Sep 2005 21:24 GMT > Harv, dear, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > involved and doesn't WANT to know...he wants to be superior to those who > couldn't get out. OK, Rosie, you are taking this way too far and way too personal.
The question was asked about what we can do to prepare in the future. I responded with what every emergency management organization in the country agrees is needed, to plan on handling your own evacuation and taking care of yourself for 72 hours. I never said anything about clean-up, rebuilding, etc., and I never blamed anyone.
The reality is that these methods do work. They have been tested time and again.
Walt
Rosemarie Shiver - 02 Sep 2005 23:42 GMT Hello, Walt?
And the emergency management system is expected to take over after 72 hours and they didn't for Katrina, they didn't for Charley, They didn't for Andrew, they didn't for Frances and they finally did in 72 hours for one: Jeanne. Only one, Walt. How many of those did your emergency management experts go thru, themselves? How many did you...so how would you know what worked and didn't. The fact is: YOU DON'T. Admit you have no experience and I'll listen.
You have GOT to be kidding or you're ridiculous without knowing it. Let any of the agencies e-mail me...my addy is not munged....and I can tell you and them exactly what is need in 72 hours, 144 hours and beyond. The way it is and has been doesn't cut it.
Doncha GET that, Walt? You will if ya listen in the months to come. It ain't personal...it's horrible, OK? Ask anyone who has had to come out of the darkest of nights.
It ain't about you, nothing personal, it's business...it's about knowing right from wrong about these disasters. And people are DYING tonite from business as usual. M gets the unenviable job of picking up the pieces of destroyed lives; blessings upon her head.
Aftermath Hugs from Rosie
 Signature "If you wanna get it done, you gotta fight for yourself." -- Meat Loaf, Bat Outta Hell II
> > > Harv, dear, [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Walt Nann Bell - 03 Sep 2005 14:53 GMT Rosie and Walt,
Ok, now folks, I love both of you and to be quite honest, I think BOTH of you are right. It seems to me that you are speaking in different terms and to different aspects of the issue. Walt is talking about doing all that is reasonable to deal with the *immediate* aftermath of a disaster such as this. And he was originally responding to my comments about the LARGE impoverished population of NO that was unable to evacuate and the shamefulness of that. Rosie, you are talking about the longer term aftereffects of disasters, about what happens as you live through the days and weeks and months of the wreckage.
Both of you are right. It DOES pay to make the reasonable 72 hour preparations as it increases your chance of living through the immediate disaster and improves your immediately-post-disaster health until some help reaches you. But the ways in which you can prepare for the days and weeks and months that follow the disaster are limited, even more so if your financial circumstances are limited themselves. It sucks, no doubt about that Rosie. Then again, Walt is also right though in saying that comunity is of the utmost importance in surviving those times. Friends, neighbors, relatives and strangers ho are willing to sacrifice in order to help another can ease the very great burden of those working to recover. But it is still a long and painful process, community eases but cannot fully replace all that was lost.
Can we all agree that both of you are right? - that it DOES pay to make the 72 hour preparations AND that those preparations are inadequate if you do suffer massive disaster? That the community DOES need to help in every way possible, and this community extends throughout the world, but that still the community can only ease the pain so far and those who came through the disaster will suffer regardless?
 Signature Nann remove the Gator cheer to email me Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare
Walt Hanks - 03 Sep 2005 15:11 GMT Thank you Nann. I completely agree.
Walt
> Rosie and Walt, > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > community can only ease the pain so far and those who came through the > disaster will suffer regardless? Rosemarie Shiver - 03 Sep 2005 15:58 GMT Yup....thanks for putting it so eloquently, Nann. Now if only they'd work on getting the input of those who know best: the Americans who've survived one or a few. That's the largest gap in providing aid to the people caught in these hurricanes. The professionals are working from theory rather than facts. That's painfully obvious; when Pres. Bush himself sez the level of response by the Feds. to Katrina, as of yesterday, is quote: unacceptable
: unquote. They really wanna fix that, now they know it's broke and doesn't work? I'll await hearing from 'em. :-(
Nann Hugs from Rosie
 Signature "If you wanna get it done, you gotta fight for yourself." -- Meat Loaf, Bat Outta Hell II
> Rosie and Walt, > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > community can only ease the pain so far and those who came through the > disaster will suffer regardless? Gwen Love - 03 Sep 2005 19:42 GMT Thanks Nann. Gwen
> Rosie and Walt, > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > community can only ease the pain so far and those who came through the > disaster will suffer regardless? spodosaurus - 03 Sep 2005 11:13 GMT >>Ah, Melinda, I am so glad you have found ways to help that do not endanger >>your health too much. I knew you wouldn't be able to just sit and watch! [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > There is only one answer to that question, and it does not involve the > government. In times of natural disaster and national emergency then the government does have a responsibility to the people. That's what we have it for. They didn't even evacuate the hospitals. I just can't believe that. And people with severe illness and disability who couldn't afford to arrange for private medical transport and accomodation out of the area weren't helped, and are dead or dying now. Not to mention the demand would have vastly overwhelmed the supply of such services. Government really screwed up this time, and people died, especially people like us with serious and chronic health problems. Even people without these issues had serious trouble evacuating due to problems with blocked and clogged roads and insufficient mass transit systems that should have been bolstered by our standing military. Part of the excellence of our military as that we can move vast amounts of people and supplies very rapidly. This wasn't even prepared for beforehand, and now people are paying the price for such stupidity from our federal leaders. I can't help but think that McCain would have at least had the military on alert and prepared for this contingency. I do hope he runs again.
Ari
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I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor: http://www.abmdr.org.au/ http://www.marrow.org/
Don Kirkman - 02 Sep 2005 21:51 GMT It seems to me I heard somewhere that Nann Bell wrote in article <0001HW.BF3DB00B001E32A212857E00@news.east.earthlink.net>:
>Ah, Melinda, I am so glad you have found ways to help that do not endanger >your health too much. I knew you wouldn't be able to just sit and watch! [. . .]
>Meanwhile, I do consider it a true shame that in the richest country in the >world, there were no provisions to assist in evacuation for the people who >couldn't afford gas or who don't even own cars. How were tehy supposed to >leave? In a city with a 30-40% poverty rate, that was a major contributor to >the loss of life in this flood. I have no idea of how to address that issue >in future storms though....... I wonder why troops, transportation equipment, and supplies weren't moved into staging areas and evacuation/shelter plans firmed up during the several days everybody was tracking Katrina from the Atlantic across Florida and through the Gulf?
 Signature Don Kirkman
Nann Bell - 03 Sep 2005 14:53 GMT > I wonder why troops, transportation equipment, and supplies weren't > moved into staging areas and evacuation/shelter plans firmed up during > the several days everybody was tracking Katrina from the Atlantic across > Florida and through the Gulf? one big problem is knowing for certain where the storms will hit. One conceivably could set up staging areas far inland and assume there won't be too much damage there, but storms such as Hugo have proven that damage can extend far inland. Meanwhile, all the best predictions had Katrina heading for the area that was hit, but she could have turned and hit southern Texas instead. The the staging ares would have been quite far from the areas hit and transportation logistics would have complicated matters. It DOES seem to me that NG troops could have been put on the alert much more throughout the country, prepared to move in as soon as the storm had passed.
Also, in the case of New Orleans, the greatest damage was NOT directly from Katrina, but rather from the levee breaks following the force of the storm surge up Lake Pontchartrain. This is where so many folks had their head in the sand regarding the potential damage from the storm. NO has narrowly avoided this sort of a hit from a hurricane for decades and too many people wanted to believe that they still would not take a direct hit from a cat 4 or 5 storm. And their disaster plans addressed the levees being topped, but not 3 actual levee breaks. That is part of what I lay at the feet of the state and local officials. (and I know too mcuh about Louisiana politics! Heck, my grandfather was on Huey Long's ticket as Attorney General the first time he won, but Huey didn't buy Columbus's way in to office along with him as Pawpaw was too honest for his gang.)
And meanwhile, you had great loss of life in Mississippi because people figured that if they or the building they were in had survived Camille, it would survive Katrina. Anyone experienced in hurricanes knows how foolish that thinking is. Anyway, my point is that while predictions are much more accurate these days, they are fallible (sp?) and no one predicted the great flooding from the levee breaks. But more troops could have been on alert and I personally believe that much more should have been done to evacuate everyone from NO itself *before* Katrina hit.
 Signature Nann remove the Gator cheer to email me Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare
Harvey R. Stone - 03 Sep 2005 15:21 GMT Very well said and it just about covers it. thanks Harv
>> I wonder why troops, transportation equipment, and supplies weren't >> moved into staging areas and evacuation/shelter plans firmed up during [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > I personally believe that much more should have been done to evacuate > everyone from NO itself *before* Katrina hit. Diane - 03 Sep 2005 16:22 GMT nann, as always, you are a wonderful voice of reason.
diane
Rosemarie Shiver - 03 Sep 2005 16:07 GMT Heya, Nann,
The NG ground troops can move in in trucks as soon as wind speeds are below 35. They did while Jeanne died down. The heli's and larger aircraft can airlift when the wind and rain is gone. One thing about hurricanes is they always leave and the weather is hot and sunny right afterwards: perfect for airlifting food and water and tents and cots. Nice beach weather but no one can get to the beach. :-(
We have Reservists working every weekend all across this nation from each of the Services. The dry goods do need to be stockpiled, starting NOW, at depots across the country, and ways to gather the wet goods need to be devised. Right away. I have an Air Force guy from the first Gulf War right here sez he's seen huge airlifts complete, stem to stern, in 48 hours. It's do-able, and ain't being done.
After all, it's been 13 years since Andrew utterly destroyed South Dade and the lessons that should have been learned still haven't. That's clear as glass. The people who really know have not, and are not, being listened to.
Hugs from Rosie
 Signature "If you wanna get it done, you gotta fight for yourself." -- Meat Loaf, Bat Outta Hell II
> > I wonder why troops, transportation equipment, and supplies weren't > > moved into staging areas and evacuation/shelter plans firmed up during [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > I personally believe that much more should have been done to evacuate > everyone from NO itself *before* Katrina hit. Carole - 03 Sep 2005 20:21 GMT One of the things that is really ticking me off about all of this is that it was on the news here last night that companies were offering to send bottled water to the region and were told by the Red Cross "No, send money instead". The presidents of these companies contacted other agencies and were told "yes, please send it!" so there are now convoys of bottled water heading down there. One company said it would take 36 hours of straight driving, and his drivers volunteered to do it. These people need food and water now along with medical supplies.
Carole
> Heya, Nann, > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Hugs from Rosie Jo Firey - 03 Sep 2005 20:38 GMT > One of the things that is really ticking me off about all of this is that > it was on the news here last night that companies were offering to send [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Carole Maybe the Red Cross in in the position to buy water that doesn't require thirty six hours of driving with the associated expenses for gas etc?
Jo
Carole - 03 Sep 2005 21:36 GMT > Maybe the Red Cross in in the position to buy water that doesn't require > thirty six hours of driving with the associated expenses for gas etc? > > Jo Then why aren't they doing it? All I've seen on the TV are Salvation Army stations giving food and water to people. I haven't seen any Red Cross stations at all.
Jo Firey - 03 Sep 2005 22:02 GMT >> Maybe the Red Cross in in the position to buy water that doesn't require >> thirty six hours of driving with the associated expenses for gas etc? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > stations giving food and water to people. I haven't seen any Red Cross > stations at all. Doesn't mean they aren't there. And I really was only meaning to defend the requests for cash over supplies.
The International Red Cross isn't perfect. And people do have legitimate issues with them. Above and beyond the normal issues of getting what is needed where it is needed faster than is humanly possible. I do think sixty years is long enough to worry about the price of a cup of coffee during WWII.
There are many other organizations that also do a great deal of immediate and long term disaster work. After our floods, Mennonite teams were here nearly a year, living out of their RV's in our church parking lot, using the church power and kitchen. They helps with everything from showing others how to help, to cleaning bathtubs and showers and toilets to rebuilding houses.
This is an excerpt from one church's online newsletter that also helps explain the priority of a need for cash.
======================== State officials are working to determine the full scale of the damages and thus have not yet identified specific items to donate. However, "monetary contributions allow responding organizations to purchase exactly what is most urgently needed by hurricane survivors - and to pay for the transportation necessary to distribute the supplies," reports Disaster News Network.
"By purchasing items nearer to the disaster site, it helps to build the economies of the local areas," said Joe Watts, National Coordinator of ACS Disaster Response. "The greatest help that anyone can provide is financial contributions," explained Watts.
=======================
Jo
Rosemarie Shiver - 03 Sep 2005 22:31 GMT And I posted a list recommending some...and suggested helping thru some of the others.
It was humanly possible to get thru because some of the private agencies got thru....and we all have been seeing news reports live from the whole area...so it has been possible but the Red Cross hasn't, yet. Same as it's always been, Jo. This is last year....as well as 13 years ago. The American Red Cross has always been good at saying why they can't. They told me that last year ( not 60 years ago) to my face. No meds. No food vouchers. Sorry, can't help. Hey...how about they take back the million dollars they gave to the Miami agency last year ( that wasn't hit at all) and use it for emergency housing now?
As for me and mine...a fellow Fibromite found a small church in the small town of Monroe, Louisiana and our checks are going there for direct aid to evacuees.
Frustrated Hugs from Rosie
 Signature "If you wanna get it done, you gotta fight for yourself." -- Meat Loaf, Bat Outta Hell II
> > >> Maybe the Red Cross in in the position to buy water that doesn't require [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > Jo hanbell@earthlink.net - 04 Sep 2005 13:45 GMT > As for me and mine...a fellow Fibromite found a small church in the > small town of Monroe, Louisiana and our checks are going there for direct > aid to evacuees. if anyone is interested in yet another group to possibly donate to, check out http://desirestreet.org/ or their hurricane update page at http://desirestreet.org/hurricane.php
This is a legitimate agency which has long worked in the poorest of the poor sections in New Orleans. It is well known to UF fans as our former, Heisman-winning quarterback Danny Wuerffel began working with them when he was playing with the Saints. Eventually he turned down his last opportunity to return to pro football in favor of continuing to work full-time with DSM. The ministry is now focussing on continuing to help their families from the Desire neighborhood as the area's poorest folk try to recover from this disaster. Oh, and they are highly rated by Charity Navigator (there is a link to that rating on their hurricane update page)
Nann
Harvey R. Stone - 04 Sep 2005 14:26 GMT > And I posted a list recommending some...and suggested helping thru some > of the others. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Frustrated Hugs from Rosie Well done Rosie..... That is help that gets down to the people that need it. Harv
Harvey R. Stone - 04 Sep 2005 14:24 GMT >>> Maybe the Red Cross in in the position to buy water that doesn't require >>> thirty six hours of driving with the associated expenses for gas etc? [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Jo Well said Jo and good work too. Harv
Harvey R. Stone - 04 Sep 2005 14:22 GMT > Then why aren't they doing it? All I've seen on the TV are Salvation Army > stations giving food and water to people. I haven't seen any Red Cross > stations at all. It could be the tv coverage's problem but that is why I give to the Salvation Army. The Red Cross does do a job that is hard to replace but they are much like the Fed. gov. in that they are kind of lumber along like a giant. The Salvation Army lives with the people that need the most help all the time,,,, day in and day out. In our church the pantry for people in need was completely cleaned out twice already with the call for goods taking place everytime the door opens. I am afraid that our mission near the border with Mexico is going to get kind of thin and the people need to know this. All the clothes, food, ect went downtown. There is such a need now it is hard to take care of what might me. Maybe,,,, just maybe the people pouring across the border will slow down some. A hungry person is a hungry person. Harv
Rosemarie Shiver - 03 Sep 2005 22:05 GMT The Red Cross isn't positioned yet. The national director said so on Larry King last nite. :-( Typical, actually. Same as it has been every one I've been thru.
Hugs from Hurricane Rosie
 Signature "If you wanna get it done, you gotta fight for yourself." -- Meat Loaf, Bat Outta Hell II
> > > One of the things that is really ticking me off about all of this is that [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Jo Lyn - 04 Sep 2005 02:55 GMT Good point. However, why not take the water for free and spend the money on food, clothing, meds etc. Ly
>Maybe the Red Cross in in the position to buy water that doesn't require >thirty six hours of driving with the associated expenses for gas etc? > >Jo > > Carole - 04 Sep 2005 16:50 GMT Exactly. They need all the help they can get down there. And to say no to people is inexcusable. And the company that sent the truck is paying all expenses. The drivers volunteered and the water company is donating all the water and the money to get it down there. There are people here in the Pacific Northwest who are retired National Guardsman who wanted to go down and help in any way they could and they were told no. When 9/11 hit NYC, we took all the help we could get.
Carole
> Good point. However, why not take the water for free and spend the > money on food, clothing, meds etc. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> >> Carole - 04 Sep 2005 22:19 GMT If you didn't get the opportunity to see Meet the Press today, you missed a VERY informative show. There is a full transcript of the show at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9179790 and it's well worth reading.
Carole
Joan Carter - 04 Sep 2005 23:31 GMT >If you didn't get the opportunity to see Meet the Press today, you >missed a VERY informative show. There is a full transcript of the show >at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9179790 and it's well worth reading. It's excellent, Carole, and tells it like it is. Wish I had seen it.
--- Joan
Harvey R. Stone - 04 Sep 2005 23:53 GMT Thank you very much. Harv
> If you didn't get the opportunity to see Meet the Press today, you missed > a VERY informative show. There is a full transcript of the show at > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9179790 and it's well worth reading. > > Carole Gwen Love - 04 Sep 2005 23:41 GMT It was announced at our church this morning that five pilots will leave Montgomery tomorrow, at their own expense and own planes, to take all kinds of paper goods and baby supplies to a small town in south Alabama. Our church was to stay open all afternoon and until 10 AM tomorrow for folks to bring in what they could. When my DIL and I went to Sam's and came back by to unload, there was already bunches of stuff piled up and one of our men was there to keep everything separated and in order. By the time our second worship service was over, many people were already coming back with loads of stuff. Our Sunday School class had $900 in savings that a former member had given us when she died. She said she wanted the class to use it for something for the class. Just last month, we had voted to use most of it to give to several causes, some at our church and some others, and we would use what was left to go out for lunch together. Today we voted to forget everything we had said before, and send the $900 for Hurricane victims. It will be taken to Lowe's on Wednesday so matching funds will be available. Also our Women's Ministry is meeting tomorrow afternoon to bag up personal items and products with lift off lids to send down. Everybody is responding well and all are really concerned and want to help. Gwen
> Exactly. They need all the help they can get down there. And to say no > to people is inexcusable. And the company that sent the truck is paying [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >> > >> Jo Lyn - 05 Sep 2005 02:45 GMT That is super.
Lyn
>It was announced at our church this morning that five pilots will leave >Montgomery tomorrow, at their own expense and own planes, to take all kinds [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Carole - 05 Sep 2005 10:27 GMT From the Scotsman (newspaper in Scotland) (http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1891072005)
Beleagued Bush forced to admit US is unable to cope TIM CORNWELL
Key points • US government requests aid from Europe and NATO • Countries worldwide offer assistance; Vatican to co-ordinate Catholic aid • Bush faces mounting criticism over his lacklustre response to disaster
Key quote "We have been abandoned by our own country" - Aaron Broussard, president of Jefferson Parish, just south of New Orleans
Story in full:
THE United States has asked the European Union and NATO for emergency assistance for the victims of Hurricane Katrina as salvage efforts in New Orleans and other cities begin to move from rescuing the living to recovering the dead.
Britain will send 500,000 military ration packs, the Ministry of Defence said yesterday, as Germany and Italy announced military shipments of their own. The 4,000-calorie British armed forces meal packs are designed to last one person one day, with foods ranging from Lancashire hotpot and chicken curry to fruit dumplings with custard and Yorkie bars.
The US requests for blankets, first-aid kits, water trucks and food underlined the continuing struggle by the world's richest nation to cope with the biggest natural disaster in its history.
A week after Hurricane Katrina crashed into the Gulf Coast, driving winds of more than 100mph and a massive storm-surge into some of the poorest American states, the city of New Orleans was still showing signs of lawlessness. Police said they shot eight people carrying guns on a bridge, killing five or six of them.
The US Army Corps of Engineers said a group of its contractors, who were walking across a bridge on their way to launch barges to fix a canal, had come under attack and the police had shot the assailants.
Deputy Police Chief WJ Riley said the shootings took place on the Danziger Bridge, which connects Lake Pontchartrain and the Mississippi River.
Scattered groups of people still remained in the heart of a city of 500,000 yesterday, but attention was turning to the growing demands of hundreds of thousands of people left homeless and destitute.
The European response geared up rapidly yesterday. Both the European Commission and NATO, the 26-member military alliance, said they were co-ordinating European aid efforts after US requests to help the "humanitarian crisis" in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama.
The Defence Secretary, John Reid, promised as many daily flights as necessary to deliver the British rations. "No-one could help but be moved by the pictures of devastation to New Orleans and the surrounding areas and the plight of those affected," he said.
The German defence ministry was already sending its second Airbus loaded with 15 tons of rations, while Italy was sending a C-130 military cargo plane packed with blankets, bed supplies, dinghies, water purifiers and first-aid kits - enough for about 15,000 people. Belgium and Spain sent teams of experts to assess needs on the ground.
A string of other countries offered help. Pope Benedict asked the Vatican's central charity organisation, Cor Unum, to co-ordinate Roman Catholic aid. Kuwait offered $500 million in oil products, impoverished Afghanistan pledged $100,000 and Iran offered to send supplies through the Red Crescent organisation.
The administration of George Bush, meanwhile, was still struggling to respond to intense national and international criticism over its lacklustre response to the disaster.
Battered and sickened survivors made no attempt to disguise their anger. "We have been abandoned by our own country," Aaron Broussard, president of Jefferson Parish, just south of New Orleans, told NBC's Meet the Press.
"It's not just Katrina that caused all these deaths in New Orleans," Mr Broussard said. "Bureaucracy has committed murder here in the greater New Orleans area, and bureaucracy has to stand trial before Congress now."
In Iraq, an al-Qaeda group led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi seized on the US calamity, in a message it allegedly posted on an Islamic website. "God attacked America and the prayers of the oppressed were answered," it said.
In a White House appearance, Mr Bush paid a sombre tribute to the US Supreme Court chief justice, William Rehnquist, whose death was announced yesterday, but did not take questions on the hurricane relief operation.
It was left to the US Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, and others to defend Mr Bush against charges that the government's sluggish response showed racial insensitivity, given the numbers of black victims.
"Nobody, especially the president, would have left people unattended on the basis of race," said the highest-ranking black member of his administration, visiting her native Alabama.
In Washington, the transportation secretary, Norman Mineta, said more than 10,000 people had been flown out of New Orleans in what he called the largest ever airlift on US soil. He said flights would continue as long as needed.
About 20,000 people, including dozens of Britons, were finally evacuated from the New Orleans Superdome stadium and the surrounding area on Saturday night. The survivors reported stepping over bodies as they made their way to waiting buses. Others described rapes, killings and a suicide inside the arena.
Convoys of buses headed for the region at the weekend to help ferry survivors from the disaster zone, including 100 New York City buses, dispatched with an escort from the New York City Police Department.
The administration said more than 50,000 troops were now in the disaster zone. Three cruise ships were pressed into service by the US government to provide shelter for up to 7,000 hurricane victims. All pleasure cruises have been cancelled to make the vessels available for six months, a spokesman said.
There were also reports yesterday that the city of New Orleans could remain off-limits for as long as nine months. The Army Corps of Engineers said crews had closed a 300ft gap in one levee, where floodwaters poured into the city after the storm-surge from Katrina. But it could take from 30 days to nearly three months to end the flooding, it was estimated.
From neighbouring Texas came warnings that the state, which is already providing temporary shelter for 200,000 hurricane refugees, was running out of room. Emergency workers at the Astrodome Houston stadium were told to expect 10,000 new arrivals daily.
Rosemarie Shiver - 03 Sep 2005 16:39 GMT Also, Nann,
The private relief agencies are there and have been there since Wed. morning. If our 'first responders' haven't taken a cue from the Salvation Army and the Southern Baptist and the Ham radio and the other REAL first responders...when are they gonna? I saw Pres. Bush on the news walking in front of a Salvation Army mini-canteen....which was not a surprise. Within 72 hours there were 100 feeding stations set up by the Salvation Army. The U.S. Army could have done at least as well...if not much better...had there been proper planning. Saying the citizenry is personally responsible and the private sector is responsible for the citzenry but the government is to be excused is....well...irresponsible.
Honest to gosh...the so-called experts are so very far from knowledgeable. And many many lives were lost thru not applying lessons from previous hurricanes. To me that's as negligent as it gets. The gov. better not take credit for the lives the private relief agencies have saved. :-(
Hugs from Rosie
 Signature "If you wanna get it done, you gotta fight for yourself." -- Meat Loaf, Bat Outta Hell II
> > I wonder why troops, transportation equipment, and supplies weren't > > moved into staging areas and evacuation/shelter plans firmed up during [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > I personally believe that much more should have been done to evacuate > everyone from NO itself *before* Katrina hit. Carole - 03 Sep 2005 20:23 GMT I saw that also, Rosie, and logged on and sent money to the Salvation Army. It also made me think of what my dad told us about his experience in WWII. He had been shot in Sicily and was in the hospital. He said the Red Cross came through selling socks to the soldiers. The Salvation Army came through and gave socks to the soldiers. So my money has always gone to the Salvation Army.
Carole
> Also, Nann, > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Hugs from Rosie d'huit - 03 Sep 2005 20:48 GMT >I saw that also, Rosie, and logged on and sent money to the Salvation Army. >It also made me think of what my dad told us about his experience in WWII. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Carole me too and for pretty much the same kind of reason. my father was rolled (his word for mugged and knocked unconscious) when he was a sailor on leave in marseilles during ww2. stark naked, when he came to, he used old newspapers to cover himself and make his way to the red cross for help. they wouldn't help him free, all he wanted was somebody to loan him a pair of pants, because he couldn't prove he was american (but they would "sell" him a pair of pants---like he had a wallet embedded in his skin or something)---brooklyn accent and tattoos of the american flag, american eagle and such, didn't count. he made his way, modestly covering himself as well as he could with the old newspapers, to the salvation army and they didn't care who he was---gave him clothing immediately, free, and without questions and then, they helped him get back to his ship. he, too, said the red cross always sold coffee to enlisted men overseas, while the salvation army gave coffee to them free.
kate
>> Also, Nann, >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> >> Hugs from Rosie Walt Hanks - 03 Sep 2005 22:23 GMT > Also, Nann, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > private sector is responsible for the citzenry but the government is to be > excused is....well...irresponsible. I hope you understand that I never said that. I was talking only about the first 72 hours, when, as we have clearly seen, government agencies are unable to respond with needed aid or assistance.
I completely agree that there have been major breakdowns in the relief efforts. But I am also heartened to see so many communities, companies, organizations, and individuals stepping up to the plate.
For example, we (my Church) have 7 chapels in the affected areas. Since the day before the hurricane hit, those chapels have been operating as shelters utilizing food and other resources already stored locally for just such an emergency. Seven semi's loaded with food, blankets, cooking stations, and personal kits arrived from the regional warehouse we maintain within 24 hours of the storm hitting. In addition, local members are sheltering hundreds more families in their homes.
This scene has been repeated in hundreds of churches, communities and groups throughout the country. Even an internet classified site, craigslist, organized the placing of thousands of families nationwide. These are acts that make my heart glad.
Walt
Rosemarie Shiver - 03 Sep 2005 23:27 GMT I agree wholeheartedly. Walt, I would never dream of taking away credit where it's been earned b4 and is being now. Again. Same folks working and helping! Same faces volunteering every time.
But there has got to be a different way. The corporations, and they are corporations, businesses, that are tasked to provide the majority of relief; the Red Cross and the United Way, aren't. They aren't there. The there isn't there and believe me...hasn't been b4, either.
Americans have always been able to rely on their neighbors to help. The churches and private companies are doing the yeoman's share and are carrying almost the full load. So whut do these disaster survivors need the Red Cross for or the United Way? Same as these people now my family got water and food from the hands of a Guardsman and the Southern Baptist ladies and clothes and vouchers from the Salvation Army. Private groups help, the National Guard is there, but just try to find help from the Red Cross ppl. or the United Way agencies. It oughta be shouted from the rooftops and then fixed. Pleeze??
More Hugs from Rosie
 Signature "If you wanna get it done, you gotta fight for yourself." -- Meat Loaf, Bat Outta Hell II
> > Also, Nann, > > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Walt Lyn - 04 Sep 2005 03:00 GMT Sounds like we are all bickering amongst ourselves and we aren't even there. Maybe we had better do what we can on the levels we can and pray for relief for the refugees.
Lyn
PattyDFX1 - 04 Sep 2005 05:24 GMT Maybe a way for some to help? I wish NJ was close enough to be of assistance. I wrote and asked anyway. They appreciated the offer, but, it's not feasible. They asked just to spread the word about this project. So, here goes:
http://www.hurricanehousing.org/?TM (HurricaneHousing.org, A Project of MoveOn.org) Hurricane Katrina has left hundreds of thousands of people homeless. But thousands of people throughout the region are stepping up to offer free shelter to those in need. 109,894 beds have been volunteered so far!
Rosemarie Shiver - 04 Sep 2005 05:54 GMT Indeed...as long as yer not blithely throwing dollars at the Red Cross. If you do, you might be helping those harmed by Katrina...or you might be keeping the lights on in the office in Kalamazoo. Ohter relief agencies can't and won't do that...because they are charities and real charities are held to a much higher standard of use of donations than the businesses of relief: The Red Cross and the United Way.
You really must ask yerself b4 giving: who profits?
Help now, yes...but help smart. TIA!
Hugs from Rosie
 Signature "If you wanna get it done, you gotta fight for yourself." -- Meat Loaf, Bat Outta Hell II
> Sounds like we are all bickering amongst ourselves and we aren't even > there. Maybe we had better do what we can on the levels we can and pray > for relief for the refugees. > > Lyn Don Kirkman - 03 Sep 2005 22:47 GMT It seems to me I heard somewhere that Nann Bell wrote in article <0001HW.BF3F232D0041BA7A12798BA0@news.east.earthlink.net>:
>> I wonder why troops, transportation equipment, and supplies weren't >> moved into staging areas and evacuation/shelter plans firmed up during >> the several days everybody was tracking Katrina from the Atlantic across >> Florida and through the Gulf?
>one big problem is knowing for certain where the storms will hit. One >conceivably could set up staging areas far inland and assume there won't be [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >me that NG troops could have been put on the alert much more throughout the >country, prepared to move in as soon as the storm had passed. My thought was that it would have been far better to have resources in Houston or Fort Worth or Little Rock or even St. Louis than to have them scattered around the whole country and, seemingly, not even on alert until after the disaster had struck. We had a week's notice that something was going to happen in the middle of the southern states.
I guess that goes along with the years of warning that the levees and other systems badly needed upgrading but the money never came for it.
>Also, in the case of New Orleans, the greatest damage was NOT directly from >Katrina, but rather from the levee breaks following the force of the storm [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >he won, but Huey didn't buy Columbus's way in to office along with him as >Pawpaw was too honest for his gang.)
>And meanwhile, you had great loss of life in Mississippi because people >figured that if they or the building they were in had survived Camille, it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I personally believe that much more should have been done to evacuate >everyone from NO itself *before* Katrina hit. Indeed--those who couldn't help themselves seem to have been ignored.
 Signature Don Kirkman
Alex - 02 Sep 2005 16:39 GMT Dear M, I'll be with you in Spirit.
Sending Good Thoughts & Spiritual Strength, {{{{M}}}}
GramPaHugs, Alex,
> I am on a quick lunch break where I am doing a training for the Red > Cross (a little odd since I have never worked for the red cross and [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > I am going to take my laptop so I may be able to give you updates from > Houston
 Signature **************************************************** * Love radiating from 45.10n x 93.30w M/SP Mn * http://home.mn.rr.com/apbiii * http://grampahugs.is-a-geek.org/ * http://grampahugs.ath.cx/grampahugs/ ****************************************************
Duckie - 02 Sep 2005 23:29 GMT May God be with you. Take your Enbrel and don't forget to take some pain pills to tide you over just in case. I am hoping you get some children as well -- you seem to work wonders with all you touch. Duckie
> I am on a quick lunch break where I am doing a training for the Red > Cross (a little odd since I have never worked for the red cross and [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > I am going to take my laptop so I may be able to give you updates from > Houston
 Signature _('> (_<_)
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Squirrely - 04 Sep 2005 06:14 GMT I sure am proud of you. You take care ok. I sure do hope we hear from you from time to time.
I hope you get some children to work with there too. You are such a good person and kind and caring. I know you do well with children, well with anyone for that matter.
That is so kind of you to adopt a family.
 Signature Love and hugs to all Good thoughts coming your way too.
Squirrely Jo
>I am on a quick lunch break where I am doing a training for the Red > Cross (a little odd since I have never worked for the red cross and [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > I am going to take my laptop so I may be able to give you updates from > Houston
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