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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Arthritis / September 2005Computer Mouse
I am very fortunate compared to many people here. I have RA, but it is currently under control. I am on Remicade, with Methotrexate, Diclophenac, and folic acid. I have been having almost no problems for the past few years. Now I am having some problems with my left elbow, and was wondering if it might be aggravated by my use of the computer mouse with my left hand. I will ask my Rheumatologist when I go in next week for my Remicade. In the meantime I am thinking about a better pointing device for my computer. I am right handed, but about 15 years ago I started having problems with my right wrist and switched to using my computer mouse with my left hand. I have a trackball that I can use with my right hand, but I really don't like it very well, and when I use it my fingers seem to get a little stiff. I really haven't found anything that works as well as a mouse. Is there something else I can use. I have been thinking of something like one of the graphics pads artists use. They have a pen shaped wand that you slide over the pad like a pencil. What I think I would really like is a pen that acts like a mouse, rather than the whole graphics pad thing. But I wonder if that really works as well as it seems that it would. Thanks for any help. Bill Gill > I am very fortunate compared to many people here. I have RA, but it is > currently under control. I am on Remicade, with Methotrexate, [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Bill Gill Hi Bill, Wouldn't a graphics pad sort of deal involve lots of repetitive small elbow movements as well? That said, there may touchpads available for use on regular PCs like those that are included in most laptops. You might even be able to find one built into a keyboard, so that all you have to do is replace the keyboard and you won't have any additional objects cluttering your desk. Regarding your elbow pain, could you describe it? Also, how tight are you gripping the mouse? Do you tap the mouse lightly or do you really click those buttons hard? Cheers, Ari  Signaturespammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor: http://www.abmdr.org.au/ http://www.marrow.org/ >> I am very fortunate compared to many people here. I have RA, but it >> is currently under control. I am on Remicade, with Methotrexate, [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > Ari I have tried the touch pads and never been able to get used to them. I expect they are like anything else, if you use them enough you get used to them, but what I am really looking for is something better. The graphics pad solution, preferably without the pad, would at least be a somewhat more natural position. Also, on many of them a left click is just a depression of the tip. The elbow pain is basically a tightness across the outside of the elbow. I have a problem bending the elbow up far enough to wash my face or hair, for example. Mostly it doesn't bother me too much if my arm is relaxed. Thanks for your support. Bill Gill I have been thro mice, trackerballs etc and also have a pad and pen setup, as well as a laptop with touch pad. I think you have to try each method to see what is best for you. I can use a mouse, but find it produces wrist ache. I have eventually settled for a thumb type trackerball ( Logitech Trackman Wheel) which you can buy as wired or wireless. It isn't perfect, but causes me the least trouble. I think the best type I used was a small hand held trackerball which had been designed for a laptop, but that wore out and I couldn't get another. The pen and pad set up can be used, but I think it is fiddly. Like I said, suck it and see. Maybe, sometimes, you just have to rest. But one other thought, is there any vocal control software around ? Maybe you could say 'up' 'across' 'press' etc ? Peter > Like I said, suck it and see. Maybe, sometimes, you just have to rest. > But one other thought, is there any vocal control software around ? > Maybe you could say 'up' 'across' 'press' etc ? Apparently the new version of Dragon Naturally Speaking is quite good and might offer this functionality, too! Worth looking into. Ari Signaturespammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor: http://www.abmdr.org.au/ http://www.marrow.org/ >> I am very fortunate compared to many people here. I have RA, but it >> is currently under control. I am on Remicade, with Methotrexate, [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > elbow movements as well? That said, there may touchpads available for > use on regular PCs like those that are included in most laptops. This is what I mean by a touchpad: http://www.abilityhub.com/mouse/touchpad.htm Here are a couple of touchpads linked to from the above site: http://www.cirque.com/products/products_desktop.htm Even Amazon.com sells these (some, the more expensive ones, are from the manufacturer linked to above): http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0007T27BE/ref=pd_ts_pc_9/002-8446 782-7291222?v=glance&s=pc&n=172493 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0006UKQUS/ref=pd_ts_pc_13/002-844 6782-7291222?v=glance&s=pc&n=172493 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00008XOL2/ref=pd_ts_pc_19/002-844 6782-7291222?v=glance&s=pc&n=172493 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00008XOL2/ref=pd_ts_pc_19/002-844 6782-7291222?v=glance&s=pc&n=172493 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00008XPAR/ref=pd_ts_pc_27/002-844 6782-7291222?v=glance&s=pc&n=284719 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00008XPAR/ref=pd_ts_pc_27/002-844 6782-7291222?v=glance&s=pc&n=284719 > You > might even be able to find one built into a keyboard, so that all you > have to do is replace the keyboard and you won't have any additional > objects cluttering your desk. Here're a few such keyboards: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16823166005 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16823166007 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16823166004 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16823166003 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16823166019 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16823166020 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16823166009 Newegg.com is a pretty reputable dealer, too, and are known for good prices. HTH, Ari Signaturespammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor: http://www.abmdr.org.au/ http://www.marrow.org/ I have a Logitech cordless optical mouse [which apparently my mother with her new pacemaker will not be allowed to use]. But it is little and I assume it is meant to be used for only travel. I like it cause it fits in the palm of my hand and allows my wrist to remain straight. Got it at comp usa where I tried it first. Duckie > I am very fortunate compared to many people here. I have RA, but it is > currently under control. I am on Remicade, with Methotrexate, [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Bill Gill Signature_('> (_<_) _ _('< -quack (_<_) _ __('< *QUACK!* <_{__) _('< "|,,|_" (_<_) _('< "AFLAC!" (_<_) > I have a Logitech cordless optical mouse [which apparently my mother > with her new pacemaker will not be allowed to use]. Why not? The RF radiation from that is FAR less than a mobile phone. Does her doctor wear a mobile phone? > But it is little and > I assume it is meant to be used for only travel. I like it cause it fits [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >> >> Bill Gill Signaturespammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor: http://www.abmdr.org.au/ http://www.marrow.org/ Not sure Ari but it is on her list of things not to do. The list wasn't long. She is allowed to use her cell phone as long as it is with her right hand. And the microwave oven. Only thing that was forbidden were MRI's which makes sense and an optical mouse which doesn't. Oh and two weeks of no raising her arm or putting it behind her and no water near the skin glue. She is suppose to see the doctors this week but not sure she will make it now as the appointment is right when Katrina will be at its worse in Tennessee. It was on the list of questions she was going to ask. :) Probably won't make a difference to her as her mouse is the corded type but I wanted to know cause I like my mouse. Duckie >> I have a Logitech cordless optical mouse [which apparently my mother >> with her new pacemaker will not be allowed to use]. > > Why not? The RF radiation from that is FAR less than a mobile phone. > Does her doctor wear a mobile phone? Signature_('> (_<_) _ _('< -quack (_<_) _ __('< *QUACK!* <_{__) _('< "|,,|_" (_<_) _('< "AFLAC!" (_<_) > Not sure Ari but it is on her list of things not to do. The list wasn't > long. She is allowed to use her cell phone as long as it is with her [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > know cause I like my mouse. > Duckie It just sounds like an old myth that didn't get taken off the list. Like here in Australia all gas pumps had to have a no mobile phone sign on them to warn people that using a mobile phone near an active pump could ignite the vapours. It was a myth (started years ago on the Internet, surprise surprise) that made it's way onto every bowser in the nation! This 'no wireless or optical mice' deal sounds suspiciously similar. I'd get a specific answer and make sure that that answer is actually supported by evidence, as she's likely to encounter optical mice everywhere. She won't even be able to use the computers at the public library! Cheers, Ari >>> I have a Logitech cordless optical mouse [which apparently my mother >>> with her new pacemaker will not be allowed to use]. >> >> Why not? The RF radiation from that is FAR less than a mobile phone. >> Does her doctor wear a mobile phone? Signaturespammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor: http://www.abmdr.org.au/ http://www.marrow.org/ I use a cordless mouse and a mousepad with a silicone wristrest. I also have a chair with armrests. So I barely move my elbow or my wrist to use the mouse. At least not for cruising my email and the internet. Jo >I am very fortunate compared to many people here. I have RA, but it is >currently under control. I am on Remicade, with Methotrexate, Diclophenac, [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Bill Gill Me, too, Jo. I'm on the computer all day, but do have to stop and rest the hand for a while, anyway. I heard you should get up and move around once an hour. Kind of hard to do in the middle of a design, and I usually forget once the design is at a stoppable point. Loujean >I use a cordless mouse and a mousepad with a silicone wristrest. I also >have a chair with armrests. So I barely move my elbow or my wrist to use [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >> >> Bill Gill One of my most valuable tools for RA is a timer. Set it for the time that causes you no pain. When it goes off stop what you are doing and rest, relax (not just do something else). that will usually allow you to do a bit more later. This is a mandatory thing I do for things such as quilting, typing on the computer, gardening and sometimes even walking around the house. If I overdo things and get sore I can suffer for 2 or 3 days or more. For example 1 hour is the maximum sewing time right now. In the past it has been much less time than that. If I go an hour and a half I suffer and that is it for the day up to a week. If I go an hour, go lie down, do relaxation exercises and ice or heat if necessary I can usually do another hour later in the day or another 1/2 hour. It is hard to stop but the time reminds you. The important thing to do is find what the proper limit is. Also don't just focus on the wrists and mousepads. Some problems occur because the elbow and the forearm is not supported. There are stirrup like things (don't know the name but they look exactly like the doctor stirrup things (not that the guys would know about that!) that attach to the desk. Well worth trying - I know at one point I tried them at the Arthritis Society and had them on my wish list. Doesn't help everyone but worth looking at. Kelly > Me, too, Jo. I'm on the computer all day, but do have to stop and > rest the hand for a while, anyway. I heard you should get up and move [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] >>> >>> Bill Gill >I am very fortunate compared to many people here. I have RA, but it is >currently under control. I am on Remicade, with Methotrexate, Diclophenac, [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Bill Gill Hi Bill, Welcome to ASA. Please keep your RD informed about your elbow, wrist, ect. It could be that you need to do a little bit more to control your inflam.arth. or you have been more active with some joint that you have forgot about doing. It could just need a steroid shot to cool it down or an increase in Methx or Remicade. We all have our ups and downs over the years even though the medicine we take seems to have things in control. Please get your RD involved. Harv 2005-08-29, Responding to Bill Gill... [...] > Now I am having some problems with my left elbow, and > was wondering if it might be aggravated by my use of the > computer mouse with my left hand. I will ask my > Rheumatologist when I go in next week for my Remicade. > In the meantime I am thinking about a better pointing > device for my computer. Curious you should mention mouse related elbow problems. I've been suffering from a strained elbow and couldn't figure out what had caused it for a while. The culprit turned out to be my mouse, and, like you, I've switched to using the thing with my left hand (which actually makes more sense anyway given the huge lump of useless plastic called a keypad that gets in the way of a RH mouse). So I got to thinking about why only now? The solution to this problem is something I've not seen discussed yet, its down to the mouse button design itself. My old mouse, the one I had no trouble with, had slightly recessed buttons, allowing me to rest my fingers on the front edge of the mouse without actually pressing anything. The keywords here are "rest" and "fingers"! The replacement (old one just died one day) has buttons that hang right over the front of the mouse, forcing me to hold my fingers away from them until I need to press one. This is the reason my elbow got injured. RSI caused by this crappy mouse design! Anyhoo... As most of my proggies are well equiped with fastkeys, I find that I've almost stopped using the damn rodent altogether these days. (Love those Linux console apps! :) Interestingly enough, during the first week or so using the mouse with my left hand, I noticed a couple of "tweaks" in my left elbow. Hmmm... Curious that... I'd be thinking about paying extra attention to the ergonomics of whatever you use, and considering spending whatever you need to to get one that is as right as it can be for your hand. Comfort is NOT a luxury with arthritis! Daft as it may sound, try using cushions to vary your seat height related to your desk height. A couple of inches up or down can alter so much ergonomically too. All the best. Signature---- * Another squeaking wheel @ http://tinyurl.com/6bf56 * Mike's (curious) Brain @ http://tinyurl.com/4872c - Have a nice day, it really does do you good! :) I'm having a similar problem and I recently found a very interesting solution. The state of Pennsylvania has an assistive technology lending library program. Any resident of Pennsylvania who has a disability and is considering a purchase of an assistive device is eligible to borrow the device for six weeks so they can decide whether or not the expense is appropriate. Even if you don't live in Pennsylvania, this information may provide you with hints for solving your own problem. The web address is http://disabilities.temple.edu/programs/assistive/atlend/ Possibly if you do a search using the keywords from this page plus the name of your home state, you can discover if something similar exists in your state. Also, if you go to this page, scroll down and click on "Equipment Catalog", then scroll down again and click on "computer access: hardware: alternate mouse/pointing system", you'll find links to a number of devices that might suit your needs. I just contacted these people and they're going to lend me two mouse joysticks. I think this is what I need. I found one that costs about $160 and another one that costs $400. I hope the cheaper one will work, but it least I'll have all the information I need to make an informed decision. They're also going to send someone to my home to help me set it up. And all of this is free of charge. I think this is really cool. Ellen > I'm having a similar problem and I recently found a very interesting > solution. The state of Pennsylvania has an assistive technology [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Ellen Thanks for the info. Even if Oklahoma doesn't have such a program the equipment catalog should give me some things to look at. Bill Gill Another thing that works quite well is a mouse pad with a cushion for the wrist. I always use one. When I was instructing the guy who was supposed to take over for me (he did and then moved to Florida - that's why I'm back part time) he didn't have one and I had to demonstrate on my computer as I just wasn't comfortable without the special pad. Loujean >2005-08-29, Responding to Bill Gill... > [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > >All the best. 2005-08-30, Responding to Navy1... >>[...] >>> Now I am having some problems with my left elbow, and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >>Curious you should mention mouse related elbow problems. [...] > Another thing that works quite well is a mouse pad with a > cushion for the wrist. I always use one. When I was [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > my computer as I just wasn't comfortable without the > special pad. Another "horses for courses" situation methinks. I tried one of those and found it painful and it causes unpleasant pressure problems in my wrist. Worth trying a few ideas though, as everyone will have unique usage patterns and physical requirements. I HAVE noticed that when I don't have a sleeve allowing my arm to move easily for across-screen stretches (wool is good), my hand has to duplicate the lost movement, and my fingers suffer as a result. Yes, I know you're not supposed to have to move your arm, but I find it helps some. Thats the problem with these problems, they're so individual! :( Signature---- * Another squeaking wheel @ http://tinyurl.com/6bf56 * Mike's (curious) Brain @ http://tinyurl.com/4872c - Have a nice day, it really does do you good! :) Bill Gill <billnews@cox.net> u alt.support.arthritis: >Is there something else I can use. I have been thinking >of something like one of the graphics pads artists use. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >graphics pad thing. But I wonder if that really works >as well as it seems that it would. Hi! Haven't been reding this group for some time, but saw today this subject and tought my experience could help. I have RA that has progressed a lot on my arms and hands and elbows... My fingers cannot be straightened so I cannot hold a muse for years now, move it even harder. I use what I call electric pen (or graphic tablet) for 5 years now, as a replacement for mouse as well for drawing on PC. It requires much less muscle strength than mouse as well as much less moving range of hand/arm to move pointer from one corner of screen to other. I customized the area of movement on tablet so my whole 17'' screen is on tablet area of 2''. So, no arm movement is required at all, only smallest ovement of wrist (hope it is correct word, english is my second langauge ;)). I had Wacom artpad for years, last year the tablet face wore down so i bought new AIPTEK (chepaest model and smallest there was). I also customized my PC so it doesnt require double click but single click to open items so even more muscle strength is saved for me ;) For clicking with this pen there is a small button on the place where your thumb is when you hold it like a pen so double and right clicking is via this button, and single clicking is a soft tap with pen on the tablet face. Moving the pointer doesnt require you to press on tablet with pen (that is click) but moving it in the air, approx. 0.3'' above the tablet, no touching at all actually. Great thing for me, might not suit everyone, just my exprience of 5 years. Hope it helps. p.s. Best regards to everyone who remember me from 2003 ;) SignatureVesna www.foto.moljac.hr www.designs.moljac.hr _________________________________________________________________ State-of-the-art: What we could do with enough money. > Bill Gill <billnews@cox.net> u alt.support.arthritis: > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > p.s. Best regards to everyone who remember me from 2003 ;) Thanks, that's the kind of information I have been looking for. Bill Gill Hi Vesna - so nice to see you posting. Hope you are doing okay!. Kelly in Canada Hey there - How have you been? Duckie Hi! > Haven't been reding this group for some time, but saw today this > subject and tought my experience could help. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > p.s. Best regards to everyone who remember me from 2003 ;) Signature_('> (_<_) _ _('< -quack (_<_) _ __('< *QUACK!* <_{__) _('< "|,,|_" (_<_) _('< "AFLAC!" (_<_) Vesna, I remembr you well. Good to see you post again. Visit us more often to let us know how you are. Gwen > Bill Gill <billnews@cox.net> u alt.support.arthritis: > >Is there something else I can use. I have been thinking [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > p.s. Best regards to everyone who remember me from 2003 ;) "Gwen Love" <cglghl@knology.net> u alt.support.arthritis: >Vesna, I remembr you well. Good to see you post again. Visit us more often >to let us know how you are. Sice I am waling again hve been busy visiting different parts of my country and Adriatic sea which i couldn't while <i was in wheel chairs and pain. Also, now there are more opportunities for work so i am actualy busy working, sleeping less for it, but enjoying the fact that now I can work for my own living not asking parents for verythin anymore ;) All TRs are doing very well, I sometimes forget that i was in such hell of pain. The only limits these days are hands (cannot wash my hair by myself) and ankles (cannot walk in one breath over 1.5 km ;)) Because of my THR I cannot use city bus so i have limited mobility if I dont have someone with car :( Tought about getting car for me that has everything fixed for my limited hands, but am scared to ask around about it and find out I cannot drive by myself :( and other thing is my parents dont wanna hear about it, so until I earn for my own car... friends and boyfriends with cars are only option for going somewhere. Hope all your TRs are working well, and those that dont have them and suffer the pain, suffer no more, do it and sleep peacefully finally ;) SignatureVesna www.foto.moljac.hr www.designs.moljac.hr _________________________________________________________________ Imaj povjerenja u Boga, ali zaključavaj auto. It is great to hear that you are doing so well, Vesna!! Aina the lurker in Norway > "Gwen Love" <cglghl@knology.net> u alt.support.arthritis: > >Vesna, I remembr you well. Good to see you post again. Visit us more often [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > them and suffer the pain, suffer no more, do it and sleep > peacefully finally ;) Bill, I don't have any experience with one, but I have seen a "foot" mouse. I don't have a link to give you but I remember it was on a site that had other assistive devices. Hope this helps. Mary Margaret >I am very fortunate compared to many people here. I have RA, but it is >currently under control. I am on Remicade, with Methotrexate, Diclophenac, [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Bill Gill I had elbow surgery a year ago to mend a torn tendon (and am still having pain in the scar area...so you don't want to get to the point of surgery). I am right handed and was spending hours manipulating graphics tightly clutching my mouse. After the surgery I now have trained myself to use either hand to use the mouse and use a little program called "Minute Timer" to remind me to switch hands every 15 minutes. It's a free program and I got it at http://www.pc-tools.net/win32/mintimer/ . Also, I use Dragon 8.0 and it works very well for me, even in a specialized database that I have to use for work. MaryB > I am very fortunate compared to many people here. I > have RA, but it is currently under control. I am on [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Bill Gill Hi, I'm om the computer most of the time (work) adn I use a Kensington 4 button trackball, plus I use two armrests attached to my destop. Never any handproblems or problems with elbows anymore. Nikki > I am very fortunate compared to many people here. I have RA, but it is > currently under control. I am on Remicade, with Methotrexate, [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Bill Gill We have a physiotherapist looking at our workstations once a year where I work, and she stresses that the right hight of the chair versus the table is very important. She also made sure that I sit with the keyboard so far in on the table that my underarms are supported by the table. For the lady at the reseption, who could not sit like that due to the furniture height of reseption front, she ordered a special support that is mounted in the front of the desk and supports both arms. It looks somewhat like this: http://store.ergocube.com/sofosu.html . (Don't know the company, just an excample) I had problems with my wrists due to RA for some time, and she got me a rollermouse that functions quite well. I'can't find the product I have on the net. The ones I found on the net are placed at the bottom of the keypad, but mine is separate and I use it on the right hand side insted of a mouse. The great think is that all I need to move is my fingers, not the wrist or elbow. Aina the lurker in Norway > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > > > Bill Gill Wow. It sounds like that physiotherapist does wonderful things in helping to make your workstations kinder to your bodies. What a great service. SignatureNann remove the Gator cheer to email me Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare > We have a physiotherapist looking at our workstations once a year where I > work, and she stresses that the right hight of the chair versus the table is [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Aina > the lurker in Norway |
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