Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Arthritis / August 2005
Advice about power scooters needed!
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Robert Green - 04 Apr 2005 16:05 GMT Hello,
I'm not sure where I should post this so if this is not the proper venue please forgive me (and direct me to it!). If not, then allow me to introduce myself! My name's Bobby Green and I've been trying to research scooters for the disabled because I am thinking of buying a scooter for my Dad, who cannot walk more than a few feet without serious pain. It's been mighty tough going for him and now that he can no longer take Vioxx, he's really miserable.
I've not had a lot of luck searching for information about scooters because I get so many hits for recreational scooters. He's interested in buying a scooter he saw on TV that power folds. It took a while to refine my search terms to find:
http://www.electricmobility.com/ultralite_vehicles.html
with the details here:
http://www.ultralite.biz/products/550.shtml
Quite frankly, though, I'm very wary of them because they curiously omit the prices. The spells "RIP OFF" to me because it usually implies they'll try to get as much as they can per scooter.
I found another vendor,
http://www.spinlife.com/critpath/match.cfm?categoryID=12&brandID=any&x=70&y= 13
and although they list prices and have a fairly wide selection, they don't have any foldable scooters. They claim that their scooters break down into pieces weighing as little as 22 pounds each, but the thought of my Dad breaking down a scooter into 5 pieces and schlepping them around isn't a pretty one.
The folding Autgo 550 scooter appears to fold up via an internal motor (which is great because he has hand problems as well as foot and hip problems), but they say the heaviest single component is 45 pounds, and that's WAY more than he can lift into a trunk. So, here are my questions:
1) Has anyone used these folding scooters? What are the pros and cons?
2) Is there a discussion group for scooters? I did some searching:
http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=lang_en&safe=off&q=rascal+scoo ters&qt_s=Search+Groups&safe=off
. . . and that led to a hit in a non-existent newsgroup for Rascal Mobility Scooters <sigh>
I've found some good overview sites like:
http://www.amputee-coalition.org/inmotion/mar_apr_04/mobility.html
which leads to question three . . .
3) Does anyone know how much an IBot costs? Does anyone here own one? Are they really practical for climbing stairs?
4) What's the best way to get these things in and out of cars? Dad still drives, but he's probably got to stop soon. It seems like the best option is to get a van with a swing-arm hoist but he's kind of married to his old Honda Accord.
Lordy, me this is all SO confusing. I think he would be better served by a much sturdier scooter or even an electric wheelchair but he's got his heart set on this folding doohickey and finding some way of getting it in and out of the car. I thought it might even be possible to remove the passenger seat and install a flip out ramp, but that would only work if the scooter "power walks" itself up the ramp. He isn't going to be pushing or pulling anything up a ramp that weighs over 100 pounds.
Any help or pointers folks can give me about where to find more information will be deeply appreciated.
-- Bobby G.
Paul T. Holland - 05 Apr 2005 01:16 GMT Hey Bobby
perhaps i can help out - we have dealt with most of the scooters on the market so will try to give some object info
for either scooter or elec. w/c, you need to take the patient height, weight, leg length, arm length, and torso muscle strength into account - also, believe it or not, 'foot size'!!! some of the models have 'tiny' floor boards!
first off - don't be put off by the lack of pricing on the ultra lite
the electric mobility is a franchise operation and/or direct from factory [n.j.] - they don't generally go through the 'local' medical equipment supply companies, so...prices will vary based upon either shipping direct from factory, or getting it from your local franchise holder -
thus the final cost can and does vary a bit. indeed a local franchisor can and does offer prices based upon marketing etc...though the factory might not approve if one cut it by toooo much...
factory price would have to include shipping, whereas the local franchise holder would have a handling cost. be aware that you probably WANT to have a local franchise contact for the later repair/maintenance - your local medical supplier may not have any experience with these units.
in general this is a perfectly straight up dealing company - you either like their products or you don't, but their ethics are decent.
the ultra is too new on the market to have a maintenance track record - understand that given the nature of it, there might be durability issues - time'l tell.
their rascal line is a much more robust scooter and in general has a good rep - just not for everyone as to 'style'.
now as to the issue of the car -
you know this already but for the other folks reading: even though it folds IT IS NOT INTENDED FOR THIS UNIT TO BE PICKED UP BY THE USER...
it is built to use a hoist or a ramp. and yes, the accord just might be ok for this. if you talk to the toll free number at the company they might be able to confirm if it has been tested for an accord trunk.
question? does the rear seat fold to make more trunk room? if so, it's a snap.
the folding part is so that you don't have to disassemble the durn thing to fit in a standard car trunk ( most scooters need to take off the seat and sometimes the steering tiller to fit in the trunk) and also for in-home storage where floor space is at a premium.
now you should also know that there are other folding electric wheelchairs, and other small 3 or 4 wheel units out there.the 'pride' company makes both a small scooter [sonic], and a take apart electric wheelchair [gochair - take apart], as does 'invacare' [at'm take along chair] and there are more...
if i'm reading your headers correctly '66.44.103.240 lnhdc.md.dialup.rcn.com' you may be close enough to call 301-495-0277, if so, feel free, i'm here 2-8 pm, sun-fri. and i go over diff. vendors, models etc.
be well
paul
> Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > -- > Bobby G. Diane - 05 Apr 2005 04:29 GMT i have a rascal and i love it. however, i don't see how it could fit into an accord trunk, tho maybe paul has more experience with this. someone would have to take off the seat and maybe more. don't even consider transporting it on a regular basis by taking it apart. the batteries are very heavy and cumbersome. there is no way i could do this with my crummy hands. i use a minivan (the rascal wouldn't even fit in my jeep without removing some part of it--can't remember what). i have a crane type lift in my minivan. takes a little getting used to and still takes a bit of strength to maneuver the scooter into the van, but not too difficult. last summer i went to a conference on a college campus. i took my rascal since there would be tons of walking. i saw a few people on the little fold-up scooters and i envied them . . .until i saw them try to go up hills the rascal handled with ease. i could go much faster and up much steeper inclines. so it depends on your father's needs whether the little ones would work for him.
good luck,
diane
Paul T. Holland - 05 Apr 2005 19:09 GMT the model he's looked at is an ultra lite '550', that electric mobility [maker of rascal] came out with a while back - think folding lawn chair on a bare bones 3 wheel scooter base - one of a couple on the market now - pretty decent for those who use it for 'light' duty, malls and such, but not much 'oomph' for any decent sized hill or incline .
> i have a rascal and i love it. however, i don't see how it could fit > into an accord trunk, tho maybe paul has more experience with this. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > diane Robert Green - 08 Apr 2005 12:47 GMT > i have a rascal and i love it. however, i don't see how it could fit > into an accord trunk, This is a pretty tiny folding scooter that automatically folds up to look like an upright vacuum that's taken more steroids than Mark Maguire and Jose Conseco put together!! I believe it even "power walks" in the folded position. Hopefully someone who's actually used one will provide some feedback on how these folding scooters work in the field.
> tho maybe paul has more experience with this. > someone would have to take off the seat and maybe > more. don't even consider transporting it on a regular > basis by taking it apart. the batteries are very heavy and > cumbersome. there is no way i could do this with my > crummy hands. Dad's got serious strength issues in his hands. The original idea was that he would have the scooter primarily to use in concert with the paratransit service and that the cabbie could lift it into the trunk but at 109 pounds, that's probably unrealistic. If it breaks easily into two pieces and it's so obvious that a non-English speaking person can be shown how to do it via sign language, that's a different story. Cabbies should be able to lift 50 pounds for a few seconds.
I'm moving farther away from outfitting the Accord because with the withdrawal of the COX-based drugs from the market means he'll probably have to take opioid-based pain meds and that means the end of his driving days.
> I use a minivan (the rascal wouldn't even > fit in my jeep without removing some part of > it--can't remember what). i have a crane type lift > in my minivan. takes a little getting used to > and still takes a bit of strength to maneuver > the scooter into the van, but not too difficult. I've thought about getting a new van for Dad, but he really loves that old Accord and he's used to it. Watching him drive my Murano SUV tells me that it would be better to try to outfit the Honda rather than saddle him with a whole new automobile control interface to learn. He didn't like the switch from Windows 95 when it was time to upgrade his computer and talking assistants and touch screens turn him into Dana Carvey's "Crotchety Old Man" character. "In my day, we cranked the starter motor by hand and we LIKED IT that way!!!" But as I've already said, this may all be academic because Dad may not be driving much longer. I'll probably end up putting a lift in my SUV so that I can drive him around to places when required.
> last summer i went to a conference on a college campus. > i took my rascal since there would be tons of walking. If I may ask, which model Rascal do you have? Have you had it long enough to need new batteries or major servicing?
> i saw a few people on the little fold-up scooters and i > envied them . . .until i saw them try to go up hills the > rascal handled with ease. i could go much faster and > up much steeper inclines. so it depends on your father's > needs whether the little ones would work for him. This is why I think he'll need two scooters. One for outdoors where he will encounter inclines, bad curb cuts and rough terrain and another for indoors where he's going to encounter nothing but level surfaces.
> good luck, Thanks, Diane! The deeper I get into these scooter/powerchair issues the more I realize that it's really a series of compromises. I also want this to be of real assistance. I've become well aware that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. My friends and I have all done things for our parents that turned out to be far less helpful than we thought they would be. <sigh> That experience has led me to do far more research before I put a solution in place. I'm copying all the replies to a file I'll give to Dad so that he can participate in the evaluation process. Thanks again for your input.
-- Bobby G.
Robert Green - 07 Apr 2005 19:11 GMT "Paul T. Holland" <pholland@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
> perhaps i can help out Thanks!!
> - we have dealt with most of the scooters on the market > so will try to give some object info Yes, it seems that arthritis and MS sufferers make up a large part of the scooter/powerchair market.
> for either scooter or elec. w/c, you need to take the > patient height, weight, leg length, arm length, and > torso muscle strength into account That sounds reasonable. I've spent the last few days watching auctions of various EMD's (electric mobility devices - is there a single standard word or phrase that covers scooters and powerchairs?) so that I could get a feel for what people actually pay for them. I've found that technique useful for finding the real value of items like durable medical equipment (I've learned that teensy bit of jargon, at least!). It seems to be fairly common knowledge that labeling something "Medical Grade" raises its price from 2X to 10X the "street" price for similar items.
So far, it seems people list the chairs with such a high reserve that no one bids. The devices that do sell usually have no reserve and sell for less than half of the "buy it now" price. There also seems to be some serious limitations invoked by the weight of these things. Few people are willing to ship the chairs and those that do quote prices in the hundreds of dollars, which probably represent the real cost of shipping such heavy items via UPS.
> - also, believe it or not, 'foot size'!!! some of the models > have 'tiny' floor boards! Yes, that is something I've noticed. The folding scooters have very little foot support. It's something that made me lean more towards a power chair. And in looking at those there are some that have round toe boards and some that have discrete leg supports. I am not sure which he would like best or which is safer. The rounded-nose types (Jazzy, I think, but it could have been a Hoveround) seem to offer the best protection against banging into things with your foot.
> first off - don't be put off by the lack of pricing on the ultra lite > the electric mobility is a franchise operation and/or direct from > factory [n.j.] - they don't generally go through the 'local' medical > equipment supply companies, so...prices will vary based upon > either shipping direct from factory, or getting it from your local > franchise holder - OK - that explains their reluctance to list prices. Still, it makes me uncomfortable in being unable to comparison shop.
> factory price would have to include shipping, whereas the local > franchise holder would have a handling cost. be aware that you > probably WANT to have a local franchise contact for the later > repair/maintenance - your local medical supplier may not have > any experience with these units. That's a good point. A local dealer pays truck rates for a large number of units shipped all at once. That breaks down into a lower price per unit for heavy items like these.
> in general this is a perfectly straight up dealing company > - you either like their products or you don't, but their > ethics are decent. That's good to know. What would be better to know is how much the darn things cost!!!! While they are the ones that make the scooter that has apparently impressed Dad, I still find it hard to get over the wall that a lack of pricing data has built in my head.
There's a reason the feds forced car makers to put those pricing stickers in the windows of cars. The reason was that without pricing data, consumers can't make appropriate comparisons. As a result, the AutoGo folks will probably be my last choice even though they make the very product my Dad wants. Maybe after I talk to them on the phone I'll change my mind, but right now, I'm put off.
> the ultra is too new on the market to have a maintenance > track record - understand that given the nature of it, there > might be durability issues - time'l tell. I agree - and it may be one more reason to avoid buying it. Cost of ownership could be very high. There's no way to tell this early in the product's life-cycle.
> their rascal line is a much more robust scooter > and in general has a good rep - > just not for everyone as to 'style'. Lots of them for sale on Ebay and elsewhere - so they seem to be a very popular model.
> now as to the issue of the car -
> you know this already but for the other folks reading: even > though it folds IT IS NOT INTENDED FOR THIS UNIT > TO BE PICKED UP BY THE USER... A good point - it weighs over 100 lbs. I'm worried that my Dad might attempt to lift it at some point and herniate himself. Most of the time he uses public paratransit, so he can get a van with a lift to bring him to medical appointments when I can't. The problem there is that they like to strap you into them middle of the van in the wheelchair. He can't stand the folding manual chair he has because it's so uncomfortable for his back. He said that riding in the paratransit van, strapped into his uncomfortable manual chair, was a horrendous experience. Ideally, he can still use regular cabs, if the unit can be hoisted into the trunk by the cabbie. That remains to be seen.
> it is built to use a hoist or a ramp. and yes, the accord > just might be ok for this. if you talk to the toll free number > at the company they might be able to confirm if it has been > tested for an accord trunk. This could be rendered moot depending on a number of things. I think Dad's ill enough now to consider giving up driving. I am dreading having that discussion with him but we both know it's coming.
> question? does the rear seat fold to make more trunk room? > if so, it's a snap. Yes, but the trunk has a pretty high lip. Your suggestion that I call the manufacturer seems to be the best way to proceed. I will let you know what they tell me when I do.
> the folding part is so that you don't have to disassemble the > durn thing to fit in a standard car trunk You just need to be Arnold Schwarzenegger to get it there! <smile> This could be a serious issue, though. I think he'll encounter cabbies that might not be willing to lift 100 lbs.
> ( most scooters need to take off the seat and sometimes the > steering tiller to fit in the trunk) While I was strongly attracted to the folding scooter at first, I now wonder whether folding is a curse and not a blessing. Unless the folded machine breaks down into manageable chunks, it's going to be as much of a problem as a non-folding scooter. <sigh> Who knew this stuff could be so complicated?
> and also for in-home storage where floor space is at a premium. At first I thought we might need two scooters. One for inside and one for outside. The needs are quite different. Now I am not sure anymore.
> now you should also know that there are other folding electric > wheelchairs, and other small 3 or 4 wheel units out there. the > 'pride' company makes both a small scooter [sonic], and a take > apart electric wheelchair [gochair - take apart], as does > 'invacare' [at'm take along chair] and there are more... I couldn't find them doing a cold search but now that you've given me more specific search terms I will put them on the research list. Thanks again!
> you may be close enough to call 301-495-0277, if so, > feel free, i'm here 2-8 pm, sun-fri. and i go over diff. vendors, > models etc. Great! Thanks so much, Paul, for taking the time to respond.
-- Bobby G.
Norman Lampert - 05 Apr 2005 03:27 GMT My father has Parkinson's, and cannot walk more than a few steps, and then only with a cane in one hand and someone holding his other. We asked his neurologist (who is associated with a hospital) for advice and were told that if he were evaluated by the physical therapist from the hospital and found to require a scooter/power-wheeled chair, medicare might pay for it. The doctor contacted the therapy department at the hospital and had them send a PT out to the house. After the eval, they helped us start the paper work and contacted a local supply house with which they deal.
Medicare did purchase an electric wheeled chair for dad, though I had to buy accessories (such as a swing-away control unit and a ramp for getting it in and out of our minivan).
Dad has a Jazzy 1113 and is very happy with it. We decided that a chair would be more functional than a scooter since it can be driven up to a table without a tiller getting in the way.
Paul T. Holland - 05 Apr 2005 19:15 GMT just to clarify for first timers:
medicare part b covers 80% of the 'predetermined' allowable amount. 'you' don't pick the model - your doctor writes the order and the vendor matches your medical condition with the available - allowable - models that they 'know' will be paid for.
the patient - or co-insurance - pays the 20% copay
for those just starting - be aware - for both manual or electric equipment:
you must have valid medical need 'within the home' - any 'outside' activities will not be covered if you try ot use them as a reason or need. you will get turned down for instance when you say that it's to enable independent activities like shopping.
that's why the system doesn't cover items like lifts or ramps for the car...they're outside the home...
> My father has Parkinson's, and cannot walk more than a few steps, and > then only with a cane in one hand and someone holding his other. We asked [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > would be more functional than a scooter since it can be driven up to a > table without a tiller getting in the way. Norman Lampert - 07 Apr 2005 04:00 GMT > just to clarify for first timers: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > that's why the system doesn't cover items like lifts or ramps for the > car...they're outside the home... Dad has supplemental Blue Shield coverage, so we didn't pay anything for the chair. The chair was prescribed for in home use, but there is no restriction on taking it out side also.
Robert Green - 08 Apr 2005 15:15 GMT > just to clarify for first timers: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > your medical condition with the available - allowable > - models that they 'know' will be paid for. Does this mean patients have no say in the selection of a scooter or manufacturer or will the reimburse for the cost of a scooter up to a certain amount and no higher? What I am trying to say is, if I choose a chair with lift features or other options, will they cover any part of that expense?
> the patient - or co-insurance - pays the 20% copay For example, if I buy a $3000 scooter, and the allowance is $1500, does Medicare kick in the $1500 it would have spent for a cheaper scooter and leave me to cover the rest? I'd hate to tell Dad that there's only one choice in the matter. What IS the allowance? Is there a list of approved powerchairs and scooters I should be looking for?
> you must have valid medical need 'within the home' - > any 'outside' activities will not be covered if you try ] > ot use them as a reason or need. you will get > turned down for instance when you say that it's to enable > independent activities like shopping. That's good to know. Dad falls in what I see as a grey area. He can no longer reach his doctors of 25+ years because arthritis has impeded his ability to get there. He has a manual wheelchair but can't propel himself and there are days where I just can't take him so he gets sicker and sicker waiting at home, not wanting to bother anyone. On bad days he can't even get in the car, let alone walk the several hundred feet from the car to the doctor's office. I know that he needs to visit several of his doctors and has been putting it off because of transportation issues.
I'd feel righteous pursuing an appeal if his request was denied for needing the scooter for outside activities vis-a-vis visiting doctors. While he can get a lot of services like shopping at home, not many doctors make house calls anymore. Jeez, if they let mobsters under house arrest leave home to visit doctors, at least one segment of the Federal government recognizes the seriousness of the need to visit doctors!!! Actually, I'm pretty sure he'll qualify for the chair based on not being able to ambulate at home, so the inside/outside question as it relates to doctor's visits will probably be moot.
> that's why the system doesn't cover items like lifts > or ramps for the car...they're outside the home... Yeah, I've come across that limitation. It's sad, too, because in the long run, it's in the government's best interest to have as many houses as possible made handicapped accessible. It prolongs the length of time people can stay independent and not need expensive (and subsidized) nursing home care. OK - I've revved myself up again. I'll get down from my soapbox!
-- Bobby G.
Norman Lampert - 09 Apr 2005 05:49 GMT It requires an evaluation from a physical therapist (sent by your doctor) to determine need. He or she will probably try to work with you to find what type/style meets your needs.
I think the Dad's chair was marked at $2300. Between Midicare and supplemental Blue Sheild, we didn't have to pay anything for the chair.
Robert Green - 04 Aug 2005 12:01 GMT (I thought I'd follow up on a thread from the past . . .)
"Paul T. Holland" <pholland@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
> just to clarify for first timers: > > Medicare part b covers 80% of the 'predetermined' allowable amount. 'you' > don't pick the model - your doctor writes the order and the vendor matches > your medical condition with the available - allowable - models that they > 'know' will be paid for. I've been busy E-baying away, and for about $600 total bought a used Merits rearwheel powerchair ($350), an Everest & Jennings folding powerchair ($100) and a Shoprider 3-wheeled power scooter ($150). My doctor knows absolutely nothing about scooters so I thought I would take an approach that would be both practical and educational. It took tracking a lot of auctions, learning the various E-bay categories and search techniques like "search within 100 miles of my zipcode" and patience, patience, patience. Did I mention patience? :-)
It also meant learning the secret code of E-bay auctions:
"Well used" means "ground down to a stump" and "Like new" means "the severe wear and tear is not obvious" "Runs grate" isn't mispelt, there's a grating sound when running "Small stain" means previous owner was incontinent "Was working when put into storage" means "not working now."
All three came without some necessary parts but they all came with parts that didn't even belong to them! For an average cost of $200 per chair, I'm not really complaining. I was afraid if we got him a new scooter or chair, it would sit unused like the computer or the car we bought him for fear of "breaking something."
The biggest problem I ran into was people who had invoices for scooters and chairs in the $6,000 range who tried to sell their chairs for starting bids of $2,000 or more. While I tried to educate some as to the insanity of medical equipment costs and how the list prices are wildly inflated to cover the discounts demanded by insurers, it was mostly a futile practice. The seller who got more than $500 for a used chair or scooter was very rare, indeed. Most auctions ended with "reserve not met." Items were often relisted three or four times with the reserve price inched lower and lower each auction.
It's just like used PC's. People think something they bought 7 years ago for $5,000 should be worth at least $2,500. They are stunned to learn that in many cases, they'll be charged money to haul it to a recycling center because it has virtually no resale value. I don't think some people believed me when I said a dead battery was worse than useless because in many areas you have to pay a recycling fee to dispose of them. <sigh>
Anyway, once we got the equipment, I set up some benches in the basement so we could recondition them. Since dad's an engineer who's always been a tinkerer, I thought that having all three used chairs to "tune up" would be useful in a number of ways. First I told him we were going to repair them and resell them, but my real goal was to give him a reason to ride around in one and to overcome his aversion to them. I sensed a great reluctance for him to admit that he needs a wheelchair. He was the same way with his hearing aid, too.
With a little help from Paul, I called around discovered that the local Wal-Mart carries scooter batteries for less than the cheapest place I could find on the net. (They weigh a lot and UPS charges are about 2/3 the cost of the batteries themselves!) I got a couple of deep cycle batteries, we scraped and repainted the rust, cleaned and oiled all the working parts and finally dropped in the new cells. We were ready to take the first "test drive."
With the chair and cover off to the side, I stepped on board like a chariot driver, expecting to barely move. Instead, I rocketed down the street like a shot; it must have been at least 12 mph. Dad's eyes lit up and was as eager as a little kid to climb on board and take his turn. We remounted the seat and he took it up and down the street, over to the neighbors house, all around the house and back. I haven't seen him smile like that in a long, long time. When he dismounted he said he hadn't been out and around in his own neighborhood like that for at least 5 years. I could tell he felt he had just gotten back something that had been lost to him.
With its little horn, headlight and sideview mirror it was like a boy getting his first bike. I think a lot of the satisfaction came from bringing an old, dusty scooter that hardly moved back to life. Since my Dad's gotten older, restoring things has become psychologically important to him in a way I didn't realize until recently. I don't think he ever got over being forced to retire early. :-(
So, thanks to all, especially Paul, for their input. We're going to put the Merits chair in the basement for his workshop and keep the folding chair in case he needs to travel.
The next big issue to resolve is transporting the scooter. I've been researching all the lifts and ramps available and the options are overwhelming. I think of all the choices, I'd like to get him something like a van with a power sliding door and a powered ramp that automatically extends.
I've seen all the smiling pictures of seniors merrily attaching their chairs to swing arm lifts like the Bruno models, but I don't see my Dad doing all that. I'm afraid if it's too difficult, he'll use it once or twice to prove he can, and then just stop. A power sliding door and ramp seem to be about the easiest option, and it looks like only vans with lowered floors and maybe even high tops are the only option that would allow him to drive the chair into the vehicle. I'm a little worried about side-entry doors because of being "parked in."
I'd appreciate people telling me what works for them. One option I considered is a back-mounted lift. But that's got a number of disadvantages like fussing with locks, covers, driving a longer vehicle and driving one with seriously altered driving characteristics as a result of all that weight on the bumper. The lifting part is turning out to be far worse than the chair selection part. <sigh>
Well, thanks for listening. Any ideas on the least troublesome way to transport a 3-wheel scooter will be greatly appreciated!
-- Bobby G.
Harvey R. Stone - 04 Aug 2005 15:31 GMT Hi Bobby,,, Thanks for posting this,,,, I enjoyed reading the story of it and your part in taking care of your father. If you have had Paul to help you, you have had the best. I do not have any suggestions other than to say that I am sure you will solve all the problems with your dads input and your gooo get em attitude,,,,things happen. Harv
> (I thought I'd follow up on a thread from the past . . .) > [quoted text clipped - 141 lines] > -- > Bobby G. Robert Green - 04 Aug 2005 20:41 GMT "Harvey R. Stone" <none@nobody.net> wrote in message
> Hi Bobby,,, Thanks for posting this,,,, I enjoyed reading the story of it > and your part in taking care of your father. You're welcome, of course, Harv. I wanted to share what I learned as well as find out what other people are using for lifts. When I found myself worrying that Dad was going to skin his knees on his new (well, "nearly" new) scooter I realized the Gerard Manley Hopkins quote was quite true: 'The child is father to the man'.
In a way, it was like a father and son building a soapbox derby car. We really got to know each other again and I realized how much he needed a project to work on after he was forced to retire. I think the country suffers as a whole when people with long years of experience are put to pasture prematurely. But that's a whole 'nother rant!
> If you have had Paul to help you, you have had the best. Yes, he was *very* helpful. I probably would still be waiting for new and very expensive batteries to arrive had he not suggested some good local alternatives. It was also nice to know that the E&J chair I bought was missing the same part that most of them are (the hinge pin that allows the chair to fold like a manual wheelchair) and gave me an idea of what to replace it with in an emergency (some 10 penny nails!) He also straightened out some misconceptions I had about renting powerchairs.
> I do not have any suggestions other than to say that I am sure > you will solve all the problems with your dads input and > your gooo get em attitude,,,,things happen. Thanks. I had a lot of good teachers throughout my life, and they always encouraged me to "do my homework" and to research something before charging into it blindly. The internet has helped, too, because I soon learned to "Google before asking." When I first looked into powerchairs a few months ago, I actually thought one of those tiny, autofolding Autogo 550's would do. Now I know better.
I didn't understand the differences between powerchairs and scooters, mid-wheel and rear-wheel drives and a whole host of other details about electric mobility aids. A few weeks of reading through wheelchair sites on the WWW and of actually getting my hands on different types of chairs and scooters has really made a difference. I'll never be an expert like Paul, but I'm no longer a powerchair newbie, either! :-)
-- Bobby G.
Carole - 04 Aug 2005 17:18 GMT Hi Bob,
I know nothing about scooters, but I was really smiling when reading about your Dad being able to go around his neighborhood for the first time in years! WAY TO GO!!!
Carole :)
> (I thought I'd follow up on a thread from the past . . .) > [quoted text clipped - 112 lines] > -- > Bobby G. Robert Green - 04 Aug 2005 22:33 GMT "Carole" <SeattleCarole@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> Hi Bob, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Carole :) Thanks! It really was a "Kodak" moment for the both of us. Too bad the camera was inside! The most interesting part for me was that his orthopaedist was completely opposed to the scooter idea. He told me that people he's prescribed scooters for eventually ended up worse because they no longer tried to walk under their own power. That's not been true of Dad at all. It's as if he came back to life like magic.
We can hardly keep him from getting up early to ride down to the local park for a "spin." He gets plenty of excercise getting to and from the scooter. It's exercise he wasn't getting before. He couldn't have gone down to the park before on his own two tortured feet, no way, no how. Now he goes, takes pictures of the birds and squirrels and sunrises and meets and talks to lots of people.
The best part is he's happy, he's smiling. It's as if one of the many things taken away from him recently: his health, his job, his mobility, his brother and even the family cat, :-( was restored.
We're working on making him "mobile" - putting the scooter in a van so he can take it to the mall, etc. I'm kind of glad we're doing it one step at a time because I can be sure he learns to "drive" it around the neighborhood before I turn him loose on his own.
-- Bobby G.
Gwen Love - 04 Aug 2005 18:29 GMT Bob, I've ridden in a van with the power side door and ramp for a handicapped person, and they are really nice. You can get a sign to put on the outside asking people not to park nearby, but the best bet is to park over the line where there isn't room for someone to park beside! Good luck with what you decide. Gwen
> (I thought I'd follow up on a thread from the past . . .) > [quoted text clipped - 112 lines] > -- > Bobby G. Carole - 04 Aug 2005 19:01 GMT Out here in Washington, there are disabled spaces just for vans and they are marked "van accessible". There are wide stripes next to the parking space so that there is room for the ramp.
Carole
> Bob, I've ridden in a van with the power side door and ramp for a > handicapped person, and they are really nice. You can get a sign to put on [quoted text clipped - 209 lines] >>-- >>Bobby G. Gwen Love - 04 Aug 2005 19:36 GMT that is true at some spaces in Alabama also. Gwen
> Out here in Washington, there are disabled spaces just for vans and they > are marked "van accessible". There are wide stripes next to the parking [quoted text clipped - 215 lines] > >>-- > >>Bobby G. Robert Green - 04 Aug 2005 23:06 GMT > Out here in Washington, there are disabled spaces just for vans and they > are marked "van accessible". There are wide stripes next to the parking > space so that there is room for the ramp. We have those here, too. But I've often seen people zip up in teeny cars or motorcycles and fill those "landing zones." Dad tires pretty easily and the last thing I'd want for him to do is to have to wait in a hot shopping mall parking lot until some bonehead came out and moved their car. Every once in a while Dad gets pretty feisty and I would hate for him to get involved in any kind of confrontation with a handicapped space-squatting squid brain.
I think Gwen pointed me in the right direction. I'll get both the rear crane-type hoist and the power sider door and electric ramp. That way there's redundancy as well as insurance against being "parked in" by an inconsiderate idiot.
-- Bobby G.
Duckie - 05 Aug 2005 22:33 GMT That is true in Mass as well and people are constantly parking in the stripped line section. I once countered someone who did that with 'its for the handicap' and their answer was that it was not marked. Well, that is true and I couldn't answer that so said nothing. Wasn't going to explain to an idiot that a wheelchair car needed the space. sigh Duckie
> Out here in Washington, there are disabled spaces just for vans and they > are marked "van accessible". There are wide stripes next to the parking [quoted text clipped - 232 lines] >>> Well, thanks for listening. Any ideas on the least troublesome way to >>> transport a 3-wheel scooter will be greatly appreciated!
 Signature _('> (_<_)
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Robert Green - 06 Aug 2005 00:24 GMT Yep - I'm afraid of the potential for confrontation. I think things are looking bad for the handicapped. A number of stores around here have moved their handicapped spaces from the front of the store to the farthest edge of the front row. I'll bet it was in response to complaints they got from people who were ticketed for parking there. The handicapped spots by the grocery store are almost always filled - there just aren't enough of them.
:-( -- Bobby G.
> That is true in Mass as well and people are constantly > parking in the stripped line section. I once countered [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > > > Carole Carole - 06 Aug 2005 01:32 GMT Duckie, if they were dumb enough to park on the stripes, I'm sure they wouldn't have understood what you were saying anyway :)))
Beam me up, Scotty!
Carole :)
> That is true in Mass as well and people are constantly parking in the > stripped line section. I once countered someone who did that with 'its [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> Carole Robert Green - 04 Aug 2005 22:58 GMT > Bob, I've ridden in a van with the power side door and ramp for a > handicapped person, and they are really nice. I really think it's the way to go for Dad, but I'm just not sure anything short of a step van will be tall enough for him to ride the scooter into the vehicle. I'm reluctant to have him "walk" it up the ramp under power. I might consider putting a boat winch inside the van that he could hook the scooter to and have it pull the scooter inside. It's becoming clear I need to visit a mobility dealership to get a look at how the various options work in the real world.
> You can get a sign to put on the outside asking people > not to park nearby, Bless your heart, you still have faith in your fellow man. :-) Based on the number of time I see people without permits parking in the clearly marked handicapped spaces when I am out with Dad, I'm pretty confident nothing short of a pile of cinderblocks would keep some people out of the "landing area."
> but the best bet is to park over the line where there isn't room > for someone to park beside! Good luck with what you decide. > Gwen Amen! The trouble with that is Dad's an engineer and he doesn't color or park outside the lines. Really! :-) He would be too afraid of getting a ticket for "improper parking."
Maybe a traffic cone that's chained to the van with a sign that says "Warning, mobility equipment may deploy suddenly. Not responsible for damage to cars illegally parked in the handicapped zone" would encourge them not to zip a motorcyle or a little Geo into the hatch-marked space dedicated to wheelchair lifts and ramps.
Ya know, Gwen, you've got me thinking that perhaps a lift in the back AND a ramp on the side is what he needs. That way, if he's parked in, he can use the rear lift and if he's not, he can use the ramp. Dual entry aids will also ensure he's not stuck with no way to get home if either the lift or the ramp fails. I knew I came here for a reason! Thanks!
(I love the net!)
-- Bobby G.
Paul T. Holland - 10 Aug 2005 22:55 GMT bobby
i know it's probably not what you want, but would you be interested in a bruno trunk lift - for free???? 301-495-0277
paul
> > Bob, I've ridden in a van with the power side door and ramp for a > > handicapped person, and they are really nice. [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > -- > Bobby G. Robert Green - 12 Aug 2005 11:13 GMT > bobby > > i know it's probably not what you want, but would you be interested in a bruno > trunk lift - for free???? > 301-495-0277 That's awfully nice of you, Paul! I've looked at the Bruno product line and they're very nicely made but I wonder if it would fit in a small car like Dad's Accord. Which model do you have?
-- Bobby G.
Paul T. Holland - 12 Aug 2005 19:25 GMT ASL-350, with the offset arm - don't know enough about the accord to judge but it's available if you want.
be well
paul
> > bobby > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > -- > Bobby G. Robert Green - 13 Aug 2005 01:51 GMT > ASL-350, with the offset arm - don't know enough about the accord to judge but > it's available if you want. That's great. I think that's the only one that has a chance of fitting in Dad's Accord or Mom's Toy Yoda! I will try to call this weekend. If it does fit, you'll at least have to let me make a donation to your favorite charity in your name. I'd feel guilty, otherwise, and I am already awash in the guilt of waiting so long to make Dad mobile. Say, isn't there a song by the Who called "Goin' Mobile?"
Thanks again for your all your advice and your kind offer of the lift, Paul. It is very deeply appreciated. I've got to confess, I am brought to near tears when I read here and in the other support groups about how so many people suffer in this country from lack of basic medical care and equipment while we spend countless billons bringing "democracy" to Iraq and Afghanistan. We need to take care of our own a hell of a lot better than we do before we go adventuring with money borrowed from the Social Security Trust Fund! <sermon over>
-- Bobby G.
Bonnie Brien - 14 Aug 2005 05:09 GMT I don't want joy stick chairs--the controller is way too sensitive-- and no floor for shopping bags
I am used to 3-wheeel scooters
Bonnie
Bonnie Brien - 06 Aug 2005 02:15 GMT Use a UHAUL trailer to transport a scoot. As we had done on a second trip to Tennessee
Bonnie
Robert Green - 06 Aug 2005 03:34 GMT "Bonnie Brien" <scooter_girl_01@webtv.net> wrote in message
> Use a UHAUL trailer to transport a scoot. As we had done on a second > trip to Tennessee > > Bonnie That's a good idea for a long haul. It's probably a good idea to get a real trailer hitch installed with the lift and ramp, too. My major concern is how to make it easy enough for someone with pretty severe OA in the hands and feet to maneuver a scooter around in a suburban environment.
Thanks for the suggestion!
-- Bobby G.
Pope Pie \(Sy Lehrman\) - 06 Apr 2005 02:53 GMT > Dad has a Jazzy 1113 and is very happy with it. We decided that a chair > would be more functional than a scooter since it can be driven up to a > table without a tiller getting in the way. My sister got a zJazzy and finds it quite good, but she was so used to having the tiller in front on the scooter that she was really scared of ramps with nothing in front to hold on to. She has gotten used to it, but still doesn't like it.
Robert Green - 12 Aug 2005 11:11 GMT "Pope Pie (Sy Lehrman)" <jnstewar@midstatesd.net> wrote in
> My sister got a zJazzy and finds it quite good, but she was so used to > having the tiller in front on the scooter that she was really scared of > ramps with nothing in front to hold on to. She has gotten used to it, but > still doesn't like it. My Dad prefers the scooter to the chair for outside and vice-versa for inside. The chair seems much harder for him to steer and he's already banged up his foot crashing into a wall while using it. He likes the tiller for a lot of reasons, the least of which is the way it acts like a bumper instead of his feet! But the chair is much better inside because it turns on a dime and he can slide under tables without too much effort as long as he swings the outrageously large joystick and controller out of the way!
-- Bobby G.
spodosaurus - 12 Aug 2005 11:28 GMT > "Pope Pie (Sy Lehrman)" <jnstewar@midstatesd.net> wrote in > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > -- > Bobby G. I'm going to have to go back and read this thread via google groups. I passed it over because I never thought it would apply to me. With two broken feet and spinal fractures (plus the osteonecrosis and the other suspected fractures that we're not going to make me sit through multiple MRIs to confirm) we had to go in today to get information about getting a scooter and a deployment system for our car. I had a look at two that would suit, both were small, light, and easy to manouvre. The one I'll probbaly end up going with had a very light seat that would just lift off vertically (know crouching down to release pins) and also uses a key (in case I have to try and move on my crutches I won't have to worry about someone going for a joyride while I'm away). It was called a GoGo. I can't operate a wheelchair with the damage in my arms, the line in my chest, etc, so this seems like pretty much our only option to let me go the places I need to on my own.
Cheers,
Ari
 Signature spammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply
I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor: http://www.abmdr.org.au/ http://www.marrow.org/
Harvey R. Stone - 12 Aug 2005 15:18 GMT > I can't operate a wheelchair with the damage in my arms, the line in my > chest, etc, so this seems like pretty much our only option to let me go [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Ari Good for you Ari,,,, you are worth it. Harv
Paul T. Holland - 12 Aug 2005 19:36 GMT bobby - tell him that doorway and wall crashes are the 'normal' thing for almost every new driver to encounter - we all did something similar!!!!!! on average - about a month of daily use to get to the point of being able to drive by 'reflex'.
also - did you check the joystick settings? some models can be tuned 'down' for indoor use, and back up for outdoor. lower sensitivity makes it easier to handle reaction time while learning...also - check hand position - sometimes the joystick is too close [in bound towards the elbow] and needs to be pulled out further to the front.
be well
paul
> "Pope Pie (Sy Lehrman)" <jnstewar@midstatesd.net> wrote in > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > -- > Bobby G. Robert Green - 13 Aug 2005 01:44 GMT > bobby - tell him that doorway and wall crashes are the 'normal' thing for almost > every new driver to encounter - we all did something similar!!!!!! on average - > about a month of daily use to get to the point of being able to drive by > 'reflex'. He's gotten a heck of a lot better at driving in just a few short weeks! The doorway wood has paid the price, though. The leg support brackets extend like a wicked pair of horns. I covered both with tennis balls (learned that trick somewhere on the web!) but a little too late to save the bedroom door jambs! He's fine using the fold-up footplate which has a much smaller "footprint." I would hacksaw the supports off if I weren't afraid he might need them some day.
BTW, I have him scheduled for an IBOT test drive, but my preliminary research shows that while it can climb stairs and elevate the user to eye level, a normal powerchair is really much better at getting around in the house.
> also - did you check the joystick settings? some models can be tuned 'down' for > indoor use, and back up for outdoor. It's a programmable controller, so my research says, but it requires special gear to do it. I'm thinking there may be dust or dirt in the assembly because the rubber boot is broken at the bottom. Every once in a while the chair will twitch to the left or the right, even when I am driving it, and my hands are pretty steady. I think he'll be fine with the scooter outdoors and the powerchair indoors.
It's clear that buying 3 different units was the right thing to do. One's always charging, one's in use and the other is in pieces on the workbench! Oh, I wanted to add (with pride) that the E&J hinge pin problem is solved. The solution was pretty simple. I was rummaging in the junk HW box and found an old door hinge. One look at the pin and a little light came on in my head: "Wheelchair hinge is very much like a door hinge!" A little hacksawing, a bit of drilling and grinding and it's fixed even better than new. I've wired the pins so that they won't work loose like the cotter pins did. Total cost: $3 and some time. I wonder what E&J would have charged?
> lower sensitivity makes it easier to handle reaction time while learning...also > - check hand position - sometimes the joystick is too close [in bound towards > the elbow] and needs to be pulled out further to the front. I just wish they didn't have that huge controller box hanging off the front arm the way they do. I think the real issue is that Dad has a hard time with the fine motor movements needed to control a joystick. The scooter doesn't give him any trouble at all (but it worries me - it's way too fast dialed up to the max but he likes it that way). I think that's because the steering and power controls operate in such a different way than a joystick. He's already got a buddy that he "jogs" with each day (Mr. O actually jogs, Dad just rides along with him). I had no idea a scooter could be such a conversation starter.
Despite all the kudos I received when I first posted, I am feeling a little bit ashamed that I didn't notice how withdrawn Dad had become in the past few years over his lack of mobility. Now he's searching the web looking for scooter friendly cruise lines, making new friends and *smiling.* I really feel like a dope for buying into the orthopedist's line that putting someone in a scooter is sentencing them to death. Oddly enough, Mom's got issues now. I think she got used to Dad the way he had become and this new, reborn husband is changing that relationship dynamic. Human beings are pretty darn complicated!
Dad also has serious problems with computer mice of any kind and I have bought nearly every model of mouse in the universe to try to find one that's workable for him. We found that the old PS/2 MS Intellimouse trackball is the best of the lot and thanks to Ebay, I've bought a couple in case something happens to his. Of course, now that I have *two* spares, the original will last until the Rapture.
> be well And you. Thanks again for you input and your very generous offer of the lift. I've already warned Dad he might have a thank you note or two to write.
-- Bobby G.
Robert Green - 18 Aug 2005 07:20 GMT Hi Paul,
Thanks so much for the Bruno trunk lift. I brought it over to Dad’s house last night. I’ve been giving him printouts of various screenshots of the many models of lifts and things and immediately wanted to see the "business end" with the lifting motor. I said, "Dad, it’s a little too heavy for you." (The truth be known, the motor head was a little too heavy even for me!) He said "nonsense, let me see!"
I can’t remember him being so insistent about something for a long time. So I placed it in his lap and he sat there, running his hands back and forth over the black enamel arm and the shiny motor case as if it were Excalibur pulled from the stone. He asked me where I got it. I said it was a generous gift from Paul Holland, the Internet guy. "The who?" (I’ll bet he thought I was saying Paul Holland was the ONE guy who ran the *entire* Internet!) So I told him that Paul was the man who had answered all the scooter questions we had in the beginning and told us where to find batteries at a good price.
He went back to studiously examining the lift arm again, clearly matching up all the pictures and diagrams he had seen with the reality of the carefully engineered metal contraption that was now in his hands. He pointed out how well-made it was, how the steel was as thick as battleship armor plating and the welds were thick, strong and precisely laid down. Then he asked how much it cost. I said "It didn’t cost anything. I told you; it was a gift. Paul Holland gave it to uyou for free!" He looked up at me again and said, with one eyebrow raised the way he does when he’s trying to figure something out. "The Internet?"
(Dad’s too old to have really gotten the concept of the Internet. I think for him the net has always been some foggy other-worldly sort of neighborhood just six blocks west and a few more blocks south. Sort of like NYC’s "The Village" or the Atlanta Underground. He vaguely knew of these places, but I think he felt that wherever it was, it was always, in some way, out of HIS reach.) I started to explain who you all were, and how supportive everyone is of each other in this group. I could tell I was losing him when I told him what a tireless spambuster and quack debunker Paul was. So I went back to the lift and told him you said it needed a little work; the fuselink was gone and it might need a little polishing here and there.
By this time he was cradling it like a Stradivarius in need of a little waxing and some serious TLC. He didn’t look up as he said, again, and more questioningly, "the Internet?" again. "Well, Dad," I said, "it didn’t just pop out of thin air, it’s Paul Holland’s generosity that got it here. He runs the Wheelchair Society.
As I watched his stiff fingers move up and down the motor arm I couldn’t help but think about what a tough life he had; much tougher than mine or my friends. His father died when he was 10 and the family was evicted soon after in the middle of the Depression because they couldn’t make the looming balloon mortgage payment on the house. He wanted to play the saxophone but he started work when he was twelve and worked every day, sometimes at two jobs a day, and managed to get two master’s degrees in spite of that by the time my sister and I were born.
Just recently he’s lost his prized pussycat who was his tireless companion, and he’s lost his older brother. But he’s been married to the same woman for 60 years and supported our family through two near fatal heart attacks and so many of our crises I’ve lost count. Mom’s cooked a special diet for him for nearly 40 years now.
Though he never says it, I know what he feels when he sees people eating the kind of foods that he used to love. Foods that are "kryptonite" to him now with both diabetes and a serious heart condition. And I know how much mean old Mr. Arthur Rightis bothers him, though mostly by what he doesn’t, rather than does, say. I don’t know what, but I couldn’t help thinking of my earliest memories of Dad. Running to the front door at precisely 5:30PM with my sister right beside me, jumping up and down and squealing "Daddy’s home!!! Daddy’s HOME!!!"
No matter how hard the workday was, no matter how tired he was, he would always take the time to pull something magical for both of us out of his "beefcase" (I was too young to pronounce "R" in "briefcase" very well!). It always made me feel that wherever he was during the day, he was always thinking of us. Dad also felt he had to be strong for all of us, and outside of his mother’s and brother’s funerals, I don’t think I had ever seen him cry.
He asked me again, just to be sure I guess, "Your friend Paul gave this to me?" with his brow furrowed as if it didn’t compute. I guess he’s been beaten down so long it was hard for him to believe in human kindness anymore. That’s when I saw a big, fat tear roll out of his eye, making a bull's-eye on the letter "B" in the word "Bruno" on the lift arm. I started to choke up, too, because *he* was so moved.
He saw that I saw the tear and he tried to casually wipe it away with his hands as if it were a speck of dust, well, because he was the "The Daddy" and Daddies don’t cry in front of their children. It was then I realized something profound: the father I grew up with, the man who could fix anything, the man who wasn’t afraid of any challenge, was back. And I realized just how very long he had been gone.
They say that there are single, compelling acts of humanity that can change the course of lives, if not the course of history. Well, Paul, this was one such act and in one stroke you reached out and pulled Dad back from whatever dark place the world had driven him into. It’s way past my bedtime and I am getting a little farklempt again, so I will thank you once again for your generosity and the way it touched my Dad’s spirit with two of my favorite quotes:
We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give. -- Winston Churchill:
"Many men have been capable of doing a wise thing, more a cunning thing, but very few a generous thing" -- Alexander Pope
Daddy’s finally come home again. Thanks, Paul, for helping him find his way back with your generous spirit.
Bobby G.
Newsgroup Spambuster - 18 Aug 2005 14:24 GMT Bobbie,
What an incredibly touching story!!! Thanks so very much for sharing it with us and God bless you Paul for all you do for others!!!
Hugs!
Donna G
Robert Green - 20 Aug 2005 11:04 GMT "Newsgroup Spambuster" <ngspambuster@webtv.net>
> Bobbie, > > What an incredibly touching story!!! Thanks so very much for sharing > it with us and God bless you Paul for all you do for others!!! On the humorous side, Mom saw the lift after we had set it up in the workshop and because it had a rounded cap and the word "Bruno" written across it she asked "It that a robot?" When I told her what it was and where it came from she then asked "Find out if Paul can eat pie, and what kind he likes!"
-- Bobby G.
Harvey R. Stone - 18 Aug 2005 14:55 GMT Thank you sooo much for this story in your life. I am going to be very honest with you when I say that Paul has been involved in many stories just like this and does not have a need to be patted on the back for it but we do it anyway. It is a real true to life story of how people can help each other when someone else is having a time of need,,,, is in need of support in more ways than what money can buy. It really gets back to you being there for your dad, Bobby. The good book says for us to honor our mother and father and you are doing just that. Thanks again for your honesty and story but we already knew about Paul. Harv
> Hi Paul, > [quoted text clipped - 139 lines] > > Bobby G. Robert Green - 20 Aug 2005 12:57 GMT > Thank you sooo much for this story in your life. I am going to be very > honest with you when I say that Paul has been involved in many stories just > like this and does not have a need to be patted on the back for it but we do > it anyway. Well, I thought it was important to thank him and add that Dad said "This guy really knows what it's like to have arthritis because he didn't use those darn impossible to untwist wire ties. He used waxed twine that you can remove with a simple pull!" He was *so* impressed by that little detail. It was an acknowledgement that other people know what it's like to have fingers that don't dance as well as they once did.
> It is a real true to life story of how people can help > each other when someone else is having a time of > need,,,, is in need of support in more ways than what > money can buy. It really gets back to you being > there for your dad, Bobby. And Paul being there for him, too. It changed his whole perception of the world. Like I said earlier, I feel bad in a way. I hadn't noticed how withdrawn Dad had become lately. The secret, I think, is that now he's not just a passive patient, he's doing things to help in his own recovery and knows that there are people really interested in helping.
It makes such a difference to feel him to feel that he's in control, and not just another patient popping a handful of pills each day. He wants me to drive him over to Paul's to thank him in person. He's also given me a list of things to buy like spray paint, silicone sealant and a 20A circuit breaker. When I asked him where I was going to get all this stuff, he said, of course, "the Internet!" :-)
> The good book says for us to honor our mother > and father and you are doing just that. Thanks > again for your honesty and story but we already > knew about Paul. I'm just tickled that when I was young my Dad was building carts and wagons for me and now the table is turned. I learned a lot about disability, too. I was surprised to discover a lot of information on disabled artists and disabled people throughout history. The Norse gods look like they came from a re-hab clinic! Odin the father of all gods sacrificed an eye to gain wisdom. Tyr is the god of war and he sacrificed a hand. Odin's son Hodur is blind. For the Norse disabilities were not a stigma, but often a sign of greatness or wisdom.
I never knew Oedipus' name meant swollen foot" and he may not have been able to solve the Sphinx's riddle without the knowledge of limping gained from his wound.
-- Bobby G.
Gwen Love - 18 Aug 2005 17:33 GMT Bobby, thanks for sharing that with us. And Paul, thank you for making it possible. God bless. Gwen
> Hi Paul, > > Thanks so much for the Bruno trunk lift. I brought it over to Dad's house > last night. I've been giving him printouts of various screenshots of the > many models of lifts and things and immediately wanted to see the "business > end" with the lifting motor. I said, "Dad, it's a little too heavy for you."
> (The truth be known, the motor head was a little too heavy even for me!) He > said "nonsense, let me see!" > > I can't remember him being so insistent about something for a long time. So
> I placed it in his lap and he sat there, running his hands back and forth > over the black enamel arm and the shiny motor case as if it were Excalibur > pulled from the stone. He asked me where I got it. I said it was a generous > gift from Paul Holland, the Internet guy. "The who?" (I'll bet he thought I
> was saying Paul Holland was the ONE guy who ran the *entire* Internet!) So I > told him that Paul was the man who had answered all the scooter questions we [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Holland gave it to uyou for free!" He looked up at me again and said, with > one eyebrow raised the way he does when he's trying to figure something out.
> "The Internet?" > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > friends. His father died when he was 10 and the family was evicted soon > after in the middle of the Depression because they couldn't make the looming
> balloon mortgage payment on the house. He wanted to play the saxophone but > he started work when he was twelve and worked every day, sometimes at two > jobs a day, and managed to get two master's degrees in spite of that by the
> time my sister and I were born. > > Just recently he's lost his prized pussycat who was his tireless companion,
> and he's lost his older brother. But he's been married to the same woman for
> 60 years and supported our family through two near fatal heart attacks and > so many of our crises I've lost count. Mom's cooked a special diet for him [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > with both diabetes and a serious heart condition. And I know how much mean > old Mr. Arthur Rightis bothers him, though mostly by what he doesn't, rather
> than does, say. I don't know what, but I couldn't help thinking of my > earliest memories of Dad. Running to the front door at precisely 5:30PM with [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > such act and in one stroke you reached out and pulled Dad back from whatever > dark place the world had driven him into. It's way past my bedtime and I am
> getting a little farklempt again, so I will thank you once again for your > generosity and the way it touched my Dad's spirit with two of my favorite [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Daddy's finally come home again. Thanks, Paul, for helping him find his way
> back with your generous spirit. > > Bobby G. Robert Green - 20 Aug 2005 14:31 GMT > Bobby, thanks for sharing that with us. And Paul, thank you for making it > possible. God bless. > Gwen Amen!
-- Bobby G.
Diane - 21 Aug 2005 16:02 GMT bobby, et al. i just caught up with this long thread. it brought tears to my eyes to read about your love, compassion and understanding of your father and how best to meet his needs. you are a wonderful son. i'm so glad you and paul linked up, because as you've learned, he knows his stuff and is good about sharing it.
i loved reading about your father's first ride on his scooter! i felt the same way when i frist got my scooter and took off for the park, where i'd not been able to go for a couple of years. i was grinning ear to ear. the feeling of freedom is extraordinary.
my sister also uses a scooter (she has MS) and she has a "kneeling van" with a ramp. once inside the van, she transfers to the driver's seat. if someone parks in the handicapped spot, she parks somewhere else in the lot and parks diagnally so she reserves room for the ramp.
diane
Robert Green - 22 Aug 2005 09:18 GMT > bobby, et al. i just caught up with this long thread. it brought tears > to my eyes to read about your love, compassion and understanding of > your father and how best to meet his needs. you are a wonderful son. > i'm so glad you and paul linked up, because as you've learned, he knows > his stuff and is good about sharing it. Hi, Diane - you're the Rascal (driver) aren't you? ;-)
I told a friend about Paul's generosity today and I got the same "tripletake" response from HIM! "The Internet?" And I corrected him again, no, *Paul* whom I *met* on the Internet! This friend knew the trials and tribulations we've been going through getting Dad mobile. In fact, he was shanghaied into fetching a rather ratty looking folding powerchair from somewhere in South Jersey a month or so ago. Now I owe Paul something, but I am not quite sure how to repay him. Mom says "Pies" but I feel I should make some contribution somewhere in kind.
(Just had one of those late night magic moments where I heard a noise in the basement, thought it was the dog, then looked over to the top of the stairs to see Slappy --the dog with the ears so big you can hear them clap against her body as she walks -- was in full radar ear mode, looking down the stairs and looking very, very worried. "What's down there Slappy? Go get it!" She's looking back and me with eyes that say "You don't really want me to go down there? Not *really?*" She would if I insisted, she's such a good dog. She even wears hats for the little girl next door (but not for us!) I think it was one of the many boxes I've been rattling through to find some of the parts Dad needs to "soup up" his powerchair. - back to the message!)
> i loved reading about your father's first ride on his scooter! i felt > the same way when i frist got my scooter and took off for the park, > where i'd not been able to go for a couple of years. i was grinning ear > to ear. the feeling of freedom is extraordinary. Everyone who saw it said we all looked like little kids, fighting over who got the next turn. But it meant the most to Dad, because he hadn't even been across the street for 3 years or more, let alone up and down the whole block and around the cul-de-sac.
I'm usually not given to the mystical, but when he disappeared out of sight down the road I felt as if giant rubber band pulled me back to the moment that Dad's hand left the back of my first two-wheeled bike and he watched *me* fade off into the distance (worrying like crazy, I'll bet, the way I worried as Dad rode off). The circle of life has completed another cycle.
> my sister also uses a scooter (she has MS) and she has a "kneeling van" > with a ramp. Yep. I've decided that's the best. Has she had any problems with the kneeling function? I'm worried that it will kneel the wrong way at a high kerb and cut half the car off. I also understand a lowered floor is very helpful to keep the chair rider from beaning themselves on the roof. Dad plans to drive himself, but I think we'll be doing most of the driving.
> once inside the van, she transfers to the driver's seat. I've seen some beautiful vans with automatic sliding seats that turn to face rearward for seat transfer. I haven't had to cojones to spend that kind of money on Ebay yet, but I did buy a month long subscription to CarFax so I could get the history of each car I bid on. Highly recommended.
> if someone parks in the handicapped spot, she parks somewhere else in > the lot and parks diagnally so she reserves room for the ramp. This is the only problem I can't really solve as well as I would like. I've seen too many people park in the lined-out zone next to the handicapped spaces. I truly fear my Dad getting very rattled by that and backing over the scooter or something worse trying to cope. I'd love to get him to think about the diagonal parking move, but Dad's just too old school to do anything except park between the lines. It might take me doing it ten times in a row without getting ticketed or towed to convince him to try it.
He's like our old, dear departed Irish Setter, Bailey. As she got older, she had a hard time coping with change and got easily rattled. She became terrified of the garbage men and would spend garbage day curled up in the bathtub.
Dad had a minor stroke getting into an argument with his brother about nonsense, and you can imagine how much I want to shield him from some stunada picking a fight over a handicapped spot. I've already seen some pretty outrageous behavior just driving him around and using his car with the HP plates.
I'm seriously thinking of getting a traffic cone and a long bike lock cable so that he can deploy it next to the van when he goes into the store. I think if people have to push a cone aside, they might not be so thoughtless about blocking a rampway. That's just one more thing for him to worry about, though, and he often has to leave stores early because he doesn't feel well and can't continue shopping. Schlepping traffic cones on cables around isn't the best solution. <sigh>
-- Bobby G.
Duckie - 22 Aug 2005 18:36 GMT Hey Bobby - got to this late as was out of town but does your dad have a cell phone. When someone blocked the door to my car [drivers side] parking in the street next to the handicap space, I called the non emergency police number to request they ticket the guy and get whoever it was to move along. Duckie
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> Hi, Diane - you're the Rascal (driver) aren't you? ;-) > [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] > -- > Bobby G.
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Robert Green - 08 Apr 2005 05:41 GMT > My father has Parkinson's, and cannot walk more than a few > steps, and then only with a cane in one hand and someone [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > found to require a scooter/power-wheeled chair, medicare > might pay for it. That's an issue with my Dad as well. It seems that Medicare recently tightened the eligibility rules for scooters. Another problem I may encounter is Dad's orthopedist has already told me more than once that he's reluctant to prescribe scooters to borderline patients because he feels they always invariably decline once they don't have to walk much anymore.
The problem is that Dad has stopped going out of the house almost completely due to the vulnerability he feels out in public. He's fallen down a few times, once in a shopping mall and once at the doctor's office and after that he's been really reluctant to go out.
> The doctor contacted the therapy department at the > hospital and had them send a PT out to the house. > After the eval, they helped us start the paper work and contacted a local > supply house with which they deal. Interesting. There are probably several ways to go about this I'd like to choose the one that is the least painful for him. I know he's complained on more than one occasion about painful "range of motion" exams and other procedures. If getting a chair through Medicare means going out for another trip without a scooter then I'm willing to just buy what he wants and sort out the Medicare stuff later. I think he'll need two scooters anyway.
> Medicare did purchase an electric wheeled chair for dad, though I had to > buy accessories (such as a swing-away control unit and a ramp for getting > it in and out of our minivan). > > Dad has a Jazzy 1113 and is very happy with it. That's good to know. A few years back when we first considered buy a chair for Dad one of the local DME salesmen I talked to said Medicare would only pay for a nearly useless cheap chair. From what I can tell, that's not true. Why am I getting the feeling that all of the tricks used by car salesmen are also in the arsenal of the powerchair salesmen?
> We decided that a chair would be more functional than a scooter > since it can be driven up to a table without a tiller getting in the way. That's become a serious consideration. I think he prefers a scooter because there's some sort of security from a tiller up front but I'm not so sure his arthritis will agree that a scooter is more comfortable.
Thanks for your input
-- Bobby G.
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