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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Arthritis / August 2005

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Advice about power scooters needed!

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Robert Green - 04 Apr 2005 16:05 GMT
Hello,

I'm not sure where I should post this so if this is not the proper venue
please forgive me (and direct me to it!).  If not, then allow me to
introduce myself!  My name's Bobby Green and I've been trying to research
scooters for the disabled because I am thinking of buying a scooter for my
Dad, who cannot walk more than a few feet without serious pain.  It's been
mighty tough going for him and now that he can no longer take Vioxx, he's
really miserable.

I've not had a lot of luck searching for information about scooters because
I get so many hits for recreational scooters.  He's interested in buying a
scooter he saw on TV that power folds.  It took a while to refine my search
terms to find:

http://www.electricmobility.com/ultralite_vehicles.html

with the details here:

http://www.ultralite.biz/products/550.shtml

Quite frankly, though, I'm very wary of them because they curiously omit the
prices.  The spells "RIP OFF" to me because it usually implies they'll try
to get as much as they can per scooter.

I found another vendor,

http://www.spinlife.com/critpath/match.cfm?categoryID=12&brandID=any&x=70&y=
13

and although they list prices and have a fairly wide selection, they don't
have any foldable scooters.  They claim that their scooters break down into
pieces weighing as little as 22 pounds each, but the thought of my Dad
breaking down a scooter into 5 pieces and schlepping them around isn't a
pretty one.

The folding Autgo 550 scooter appears to fold up via an internal motor
(which is great because he has hand problems as well as foot and hip
problems), but they say the heaviest single component is 45 pounds, and
that's WAY more than he can lift into a trunk.  So, here are my questions:

1) Has anyone used these folding scooters?  What are the pros and cons?

2) Is there a discussion group for scooters?  I did some searching:

http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=lang_en&safe=off&q=rascal+scoo
ters&qt_s=Search+Groups&safe=off

. . . and that led to a hit in a non-existent newsgroup for Rascal Mobility
Scooters <sigh>

I've found some good overview sites like:

http://www.amputee-coalition.org/inmotion/mar_apr_04/mobility.html

which leads to question three . . .

3) Does anyone know how much an IBot costs?  Does anyone here own one?  Are
they really practical for climbing stairs?

4) What's the best way to get these things in and out of cars?  Dad still
drives, but he's probably got to stop soon.  It seems like the best option
is to get a van with a swing-arm hoist but he's kind of married to his old
Honda Accord.

Lordy, me this is all SO confusing.  I think he would be better served by a
much sturdier scooter or even an electric wheelchair but he's got his heart
set on this folding doohickey and finding some way of getting it in and out
of the car.  I thought it might even be possible to remove the passenger
seat and install a flip out ramp, but that would only work if the scooter
"power walks" itself up the ramp.  He isn't going to be pushing or pulling
anything up a ramp that weighs over 100 pounds.

Any help or pointers folks can give me about where to find more information
will be deeply appreciated.

--
Bobby G.
Paul T. Holland - 05 Apr 2005 01:16 GMT
Hey Bobby

perhaps i can help out - we have dealt with most of the scooters on the market
so will try to give some object info

for either scooter or elec. w/c,  you need to take the  patient height, weight,
leg length, arm length, and torso muscle strength into account - also, believe
it or not,  'foot size'!!! some of the models have 'tiny' floor boards!

first off - don't be put off by the lack of pricing on the ultra lite

the electric mobility is a franchise operation and/or direct from factory [n.j.]
- they don't generally go through the 'local' medical equipment supply
companies, so...prices will vary based upon either shipping direct from factory,
or getting it from your local franchise holder -

thus the final cost can and does vary a bit. indeed a local franchisor can and
does offer prices based upon marketing etc...though the factory might not
approve if one cut it by toooo much...

factory price would have to include shipping, whereas the local franchise holder
would have a handling cost. be aware that you probably WANT to have a local
franchise contact for the later repair/maintenance - your local medical supplier
may not have any experience with these units.

in general this is a perfectly straight up dealing company - you either like
their products or you don't, but their ethics are decent.

the ultra is too new on the market to have a maintenance track record -
understand that given the nature of it, there might be durability issues -
time'l tell.

their rascal line is a much more robust scooter and in general has a good rep -
just not for everyone as to 'style'.

now as to the issue of the car -

you know this already but for the other folks reading:  even though it folds IT
IS NOT INTENDED FOR THIS UNIT  TO BE PICKED UP BY THE USER...

it is built to use a hoist or a ramp. and yes, the accord just might be ok for
this. if you talk to the toll free number at the company they  might be able to
confirm if it has been tested for an accord trunk.

question? does the rear seat fold to make more trunk room? if so, it's a snap.

the folding part is so that you don't have to disassemble the durn thing to fit
in a standard car trunk
( most scooters need to take off the seat and sometimes the steering tiller to
fit in the trunk)
and also for in-home storage where floor space is at a premium.

now you should also know that there are other folding electric wheelchairs, and
other small 3 or 4 wheel units out there.the 'pride' company makes both a small
scooter [sonic], and a take apart electric wheelchair  [gochair - take apart],
as does 'invacare' [at'm take along chair] and there are more...

if i'm reading your headers correctly  '66.44.103.240 lnhdc.md.dialup.rcn.com'
you may be close enough to call 301-495-0277, if so, feel free, i'm here 2-8 pm,
sun-fri. and i go over diff. vendors, models etc.

be well

paul

> Hello,
>
[quoted text clipped - 74 lines]
> --
> Bobby G.
Diane - 05 Apr 2005 04:29 GMT
i have a rascal and i love it. however, i don't see how it could fit
into an accord trunk, tho maybe paul has more experience with this.
someone would have to take off the seat and maybe more. don't even
consider transporting it on a regular basis by taking it apart. the
batteries are very heavy and cumbersome. there is no way i could do
this with my crummy hands. i use a minivan (the rascal wouldn't even
fit in my jeep without removing some part of it--can't remember what).
i have a crane type lift in my minivan. takes a little getting used to
and still takes a bit of strength to maneuver the scooter into the van,
but not too difficult.
last summer i went to a conference on a college campus. i took my
rascal since there would be tons of walking. i saw a few people on the
little fold-up scooters and i envied them  .  .  .until i saw them try
to go up hills the rascal handled with ease. i could go much faster and
up much steeper inclines. so it depends on your father's needs whether
the little ones would work for him.

good luck,

diane
Paul T. Holland - 05 Apr 2005 19:09 GMT
the model he's looked at is an ultra lite '550', that electric mobility
[maker of rascal] came out with a while back - think folding lawn chair on
a bare bones 3 wheel scooter base - one of a couple on the market now -
pretty decent for those who use it for 'light' duty, malls and such, but
not much 'oomph' for any decent sized hill or incline .

> i have a rascal and i love it. however, i don't see how it could fit
> into an accord trunk, tho maybe paul has more experience with this.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> diane
Robert Green - 08 Apr 2005 12:47 GMT
> i have a rascal and i love it. however, i don't see how it could fit
> into an accord trunk,

This is a pretty tiny folding scooter that automatically folds up to look
like an upright vacuum that's taken more steroids than Mark Maguire and Jose
Conseco put together!!  I believe it even "power walks" in the folded
position.  Hopefully someone who's actually used one will provide some
feedback on how these folding scooters work in the field.

> tho maybe paul has more experience with this.
> someone would have to take off the seat and maybe
> more. don't even consider transporting it on a regular
> basis by taking it apart. the batteries are very heavy and
> cumbersome. there is no way i could do this with my
> crummy hands.

Dad's got serious strength issues in his hands.  The original idea was that
he would have the scooter primarily to use in concert with the paratransit
service and that the cabbie could lift it into the trunk but at 109 pounds,
that's probably unrealistic.  If it breaks easily into two pieces and it's
so obvious that a non-English speaking person can be shown how to do it via
sign language, that's a different story.  Cabbies should be able to lift 50
pounds for a few seconds.

I'm moving farther away from outfitting the Accord because with the
withdrawal of the COX-based drugs from the market means he'll probably have
to take opioid-based pain meds and that means the end of his driving days.

> I use a minivan (the rascal wouldn't even
> fit in my jeep without removing some part of
> it--can't remember what).  i have a crane type lift
> in my minivan. takes a little getting used to
> and still takes a bit of strength to maneuver
>  the scooter into the van, but not too difficult.

I've thought about getting a new van for Dad, but he really loves that old
Accord and he's used to it.  Watching him drive my Murano SUV tells me that
it would be better to try to outfit the Honda rather than saddle him with a
whole new automobile control interface to learn.  He didn't like the switch
from Windows 95 when it was time to upgrade his computer and talking
assistants and touch screens turn him into Dana Carvey's "Crotchety Old Man"
character.  "In my day, we cranked the starter motor by hand and we LIKED IT
that way!!!"  But as I've already said, this may all be academic because Dad
may not be driving much longer.  I'll probably end up putting a lift in my
SUV so that I can drive him around to places when required.

> last summer i went to a conference on a college campus.
> i took my rascal since there would be tons of walking.

If I may ask, which model Rascal do you have?  Have you had it long enough
to need new batteries or major servicing?

> i saw a few people on the little fold-up scooters and i
> envied them  .  .  .until i saw them try to go up hills the
> rascal handled with ease. i could go much faster and
> up much steeper inclines. so it depends on your father's
> needs whether the little ones would work for him.

This is why I think he'll need two scooters.  One for outdoors where he will
encounter inclines, bad curb cuts and rough terrain and another for indoors
where he's going to encounter nothing but level surfaces.

> good luck,

Thanks, Diane!  The deeper I get into these scooter/powerchair issues the
more I realize that it's really a series of compromises.  I also want this
to be of real assistance.  I've become well aware that the road to hell is
paved with good intentions.  My friends and I have all done things for our
parents that turned out to be far less helpful than we thought they would
be.  <sigh>  That experience has led me to do far more research before I put
a solution in place.  I'm copying all the replies to a file I'll give to Dad
so that he can participate in the evaluation process.  Thanks again for your
input.

--
Bobby G.
Robert Green - 07 Apr 2005 19:11 GMT
"Paul T. Holland" <pholland@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message

> perhaps i can help out

Thanks!!

> - we have dealt with most of the scooters on the market
> so will try to give some object info

Yes, it seems that arthritis and MS sufferers make up a large part of the
scooter/powerchair market.

> for either scooter or elec. w/c,  you need to take the
> patient height, weight, leg length, arm length, and
> torso muscle strength into account

That sounds reasonable.  I've spent the last few days watching auctions of
various EMD's (electric mobility devices - is there a single standard word
or phrase that covers scooters and powerchairs?) so that I could get a feel
for what people actually pay for them.  I've found that technique useful for
finding the real value of items like durable medical equipment (I've learned
that teensy bit of jargon, at least!).  It seems to be fairly common
knowledge that labeling something "Medical Grade" raises its price from 2X
to 10X the "street" price for similar items.

So far, it seems people list the chairs with such a high reserve that no one
bids.  The devices that do sell usually have no reserve and sell for less
than half of the "buy it now" price.  There also seems to be some serious
limitations invoked by the weight of these things.  Few people are willing
to ship the chairs and those that do quote prices in the hundreds of
dollars, which probably represent the real cost of shipping such heavy items
via UPS.

> - also, believe it or not,  'foot size'!!! some of the models
>  have 'tiny' floor boards!

Yes, that is something I've noticed.  The folding scooters have very little
foot support.  It's something that made me lean more towards a power chair.
And in looking at those there are some that have round toe boards and some
that have discrete leg supports.  I am not sure which he would like best or
which is safer.  The rounded-nose types (Jazzy, I think, but it could have
been a Hoveround) seem to offer the best protection against banging into
things with your foot.

> first off - don't be put off by the lack of pricing on the ultra lite
> the electric mobility is a franchise operation and/or direct from
>  factory [n.j.] - they don't generally go through the 'local' medical
>  equipment supply companies, so...prices will vary based upon
> either shipping direct from factory, or getting it from your local
>  franchise holder -

OK - that explains their reluctance to list prices.  Still, it makes me
uncomfortable in being unable to comparison shop.

> factory price would have to include shipping, whereas the local
> franchise holder would have a handling cost. be aware that you
> probably WANT to have a local franchise contact for the later
> repair/maintenance - your local medical supplier may not have
> any experience with these units.

That's a good point.  A local dealer pays truck rates for a large number of
units shipped all at once.  That breaks down into a lower price per unit for
heavy items like these.

> in general this is a perfectly straight up dealing company
> - you either like their products or you don't, but their
> ethics are decent.

That's good to know.  What would be better to know is how much the darn
things cost!!!!  While they are the ones that make the scooter that has
apparently impressed Dad, I still find it hard to get over the wall that a
lack of pricing data has built in my head.

There's a reason the feds forced car makers to put those pricing stickers in
the windows of cars.  The reason was that without pricing data, consumers
can't make appropriate comparisons.  As a result, the AutoGo folks will
probably be my last choice even though they make the very product my Dad
wants.  Maybe after I talk to them on the phone I'll change my mind, but
right now, I'm put off.

> the ultra is too new on the market to have a maintenance
> track record -  understand that given the nature of it, there
> might be durability issues -  time'l tell.

I agree - and it may be one more reason to avoid buying it.  Cost of
ownership could be very high.  There's no way to tell this early in the
product's life-cycle.

> their rascal line is a much more robust scooter
> and in general has a good rep -
> just not for everyone as to 'style'.

Lots of them for sale on Ebay and elsewhere - so they seem to be a very
popular model.

> now as to the issue of the car -

> you know this already but for the other folks reading:  even
> though it folds IT IS NOT INTENDED FOR THIS UNIT
> TO BE PICKED UP BY THE USER...

A good point - it weighs over 100 lbs.  I'm worried that my Dad might
attempt to lift it at some point and herniate himself.  Most of the time he
uses public paratransit, so he can get a van with a lift to bring him to
medical appointments when I can't.  The problem there is that they like to
strap you into them middle of the van in the wheelchair.  He can't stand the
folding manual chair he has because it's so uncomfortable for his back.  He
said that riding in the paratransit van, strapped into his uncomfortable
manual chair, was a horrendous experience.  Ideally, he can still use
regular cabs, if the unit can be hoisted into the trunk by the cabbie.  That
remains to be seen.

> it is built to use a hoist or a ramp. and yes, the accord
> just might be ok for this. if you talk to the toll free number
> at the company they  might be able to confirm if it has been
> tested for an accord trunk.

This could be rendered moot depending on a number of things.  I think Dad's
ill enough now to consider giving up driving. I am dreading having that
discussion with him but we both know it's coming.

> question? does the rear seat fold to make more trunk room?
> if so, it's a snap.

Yes, but the trunk has a pretty high lip.  Your suggestion that I call the
manufacturer seems to be the best way to proceed.  I will let you know what
they tell me when I do.

> the folding part is so that you don't have to disassemble the
> durn thing to fit in a standard car trunk

You just need to be Arnold Schwarzenegger to get it there! <smile>   This
could be a serious issue, though.  I think he'll encounter cabbies that
might not be willing to lift 100 lbs.

> ( most scooters need to take off the seat and sometimes the
> steering tiller to fit in the trunk)

While I was strongly attracted to the folding scooter at first, I now wonder
whether folding is a curse and not a blessing.  Unless the folded machine
breaks down into manageable chunks, it's going to be as much of a problem as
a non-folding scooter.  <sigh>  Who knew this stuff could be so complicated?

> and also for in-home storage where floor space is at a premium.

At first I thought we might need two scooters.  One for inside and one for
outside.  The needs are quite different.  Now I am not sure anymore.

> now you should also know that there are other folding electric
> wheelchairs, and other small 3 or 4 wheel units out there. the
> 'pride' company makes both a small scooter [sonic], and a take
> apart electric wheelchair  [gochair - take apart], as does
> 'invacare' [at'm take along chair] and there are more...

I couldn't find them doing a cold search but now that you've given me more
specific search terms I will put them on the research list.  Thanks again!

> you may be close enough to call 301-495-0277, if so,
> feel free, i'm here 2-8 pm, sun-fri. and i go over diff. vendors,
> models etc.

Great!  Thanks so much, Paul, for taking the time to respond.

--
Bobby G.
Norman Lampert - 05 Apr 2005 03:27 GMT
My father has Parkinson's, and cannot walk more than a few steps, and
then only with a cane in one hand and someone holding his other. We asked
his neurologist (who is associated with a hospital) for advice and were
told that if he were evaluated by the physical therapist from the
hospital and found to require a scooter/power-wheeled chair, medicare
might pay for it. The doctor contacted the therapy department at the
hospital and had them send a PT out to the house.
After the eval, they helped us start the paper work and contacted a local
supply house with which they deal.

Medicare did purchase an electric wheeled chair for dad, though I had to
buy accessories (such as a swing-away control unit and a ramp for getting
it in and out of our minivan).

Dad has a Jazzy 1113 and is very happy with it. We decided that a chair
would be more functional than a scooter since it can be driven up to a
table without a tiller getting in the way.
Paul T. Holland - 05 Apr 2005 19:15 GMT
just to clarify for first timers:

medicare part b covers 80% of the 'predetermined' allowable amount. 'you'
don't pick the model - your doctor writes the order and the vendor matches
your medical condition with the available - allowable - models that they
'know' will be paid for.

the patient - or co-insurance - pays the 20% copay

for those just starting - be aware - for both manual or electric equipment:

you must have valid medical need 'within the home' - any 'outside' activities
will not be covered if you try ot use them as a reason or need. you will get
turned down for instance when you say that it's to enable independent
activities like shopping.

that's why the system doesn't cover items like lifts or ramps for the
car...they're outside the home...

> My father has Parkinson's, and cannot walk more than a few steps, and
> then only with a cane in one hand and someone holding his other. We asked
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> would be more functional than a scooter since it can be driven up to a
> table without a tiller getting in the way.
Norman Lampert - 07 Apr 2005 04:00 GMT
> just to clarify for first timers:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> that's why the system doesn't cover items like lifts or ramps for the
> car...they're outside the home...

Dad has supplemental Blue Shield coverage, so we didn't pay anything for
the chair. The chair was prescribed for in home use, but there is no
restriction on taking it out side also.
Robert Green - 08 Apr 2005 15:15 GMT
> just to clarify for first timers:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> your medical condition with the available - allowable
> - models that they 'know' will be paid for.

Does this mean patients have no say in the selection of a scooter or
manufacturer or will the reimburse for the cost of a scooter up to a certain
amount and no higher?  What I am trying to say is, if I choose a chair with
lift features or other options, will they cover any part of that expense?

> the patient - or co-insurance - pays the 20% copay

For example, if I buy a $3000 scooter, and the allowance is $1500, does
Medicare kick in the $1500 it would have spent for a cheaper scooter and
leave me to cover the rest?  I'd hate to tell Dad that there's only one
choice in the matter.  What IS the allowance?  Is there a list of approved
powerchairs and scooters I should be looking for?

> you must have valid medical need 'within the home' -
> any 'outside' activities will not be covered if you try ]
> ot use them as a reason or need. you will get
> turned down for instance when you say that it's to enable
> independent activities like shopping.

That's good to know.  Dad falls in what I see as a grey area.  He can no
longer reach his doctors of 25+ years because arthritis has impeded his
ability to get there.  He has a manual wheelchair but can't propel himself
and there are days where I just can't take him so he gets sicker and sicker
waiting at home, not wanting to bother anyone.  On bad days he can't even
get in the car, let alone walk the several hundred feet from the car to the
doctor's office.  I know that he needs to visit several of his doctors and
has been putting it off because of transportation issues.

I'd feel righteous pursuing an appeal if his request was denied for needing
the scooter for outside activities vis-a-vis visiting doctors.  While he can
get a lot of services like shopping at home, not many doctors make house
calls anymore.  Jeez, if they let mobsters under house arrest leave home to
visit doctors, at least one segment of the Federal government recognizes the
seriousness of the need to visit doctors!!!  Actually, I'm pretty sure he'll
qualify for the chair based on not being able to ambulate at home, so the
inside/outside question as it relates to doctor's visits will probably be
moot.

> that's why the system doesn't cover items like lifts
> or ramps for the car...they're outside the home...

Yeah, I've come across that limitation.  It's sad, too, because in the long
run, it's in the government's best interest to have as many houses as
possible made handicapped accessible.  It prolongs the length of time people
can stay independent and not need expensive (and subsidized) nursing home
care.  OK - I've revved myself up again.  I'll get down from my soapbox!

--
Bobby G.
Norman Lampert - 09 Apr 2005 05:49 GMT
It requires an evaluation from a physical therapist (sent by your doctor)
to determine need. He or she will probably try to work with you to find
what type/style meets your needs.

I think the Dad's chair was marked at $2300. Between Midicare and
supplemental Blue Sheild, we didn't have to pay anything for the chair.
Robert Green - 04 Aug 2005 12:01 GMT
(I thought I'd follow up on a thread from the past . . .)

"Paul T. Holland" <pholland@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message

> just to clarify for first timers:
>
> Medicare part b covers 80% of the 'predetermined' allowable amount. 'you'
> don't pick the model - your doctor writes the order and the vendor matches
> your medical condition with the available - allowable - models that they
> 'know' will be paid for.

I've been busy E-baying away, and for about $600 total bought a used Merits
rearwheel powerchair ($350), an Everest & Jennings folding powerchair ($100)
and a Shoprider 3-wheeled power scooter ($150).   My doctor knows absolutely
nothing about scooters so I thought I would take an approach that would be
both practical and educational.  It took tracking a lot of auctions,
learning the various E-bay categories and search techniques like "search
within 100 miles of my zipcode" and patience, patience, patience.  Did I
mention patience?  :-)

It also meant learning the secret code of E-bay auctions:

"Well used" means "ground down to a stump" and
"Like new" means "the severe wear and tear is not obvious"
"Runs grate" isn't mispelt, there's a grating sound when running
"Small stain" means previous owner was incontinent
"Was working when put into storage" means "not working now."

All three came without some necessary parts but they all came with parts
that didn't even belong to them!  For an average cost of $200 per chair, I'm
not really complaining.  I was afraid if we got him a new scooter or chair,
it would sit unused like the computer or the car we bought him for fear of
"breaking something."

The biggest problem I ran into was people who had invoices for scooters and
chairs in the $6,000 range who tried to sell their chairs for starting bids
of $2,000 or more.  While I tried to educate some as to the insanity of
medical equipment costs and how the list prices are wildly inflated to cover
the discounts demanded by insurers, it was mostly a futile practice.  The
seller who got more than $500 for a used chair or scooter was very rare,
indeed.  Most auctions ended with "reserve not met."  Items were often
relisted three or four times with the reserve price inched lower and lower
each auction.

It's just like used PC's.  People think something they bought 7 years ago
for $5,000 should be worth at least $2,500.  They are stunned to learn that
in many cases, they'll be charged money to haul it to a recycling center
because it has virtually no resale value.  I don't think some people
believed me when I said a dead battery was worse than useless because in
many areas you have to pay a recycling fee to dispose of them.  <sigh>

Anyway, once we got the equipment, I set up some benches in the basement so
we could recondition them.  Since dad's an engineer who's always been a
tinkerer, I thought that having all three used chairs to "tune up" would be
useful in a number of ways.  First I told him we were going to repair them
and resell them, but my real goal was to give him a reason to ride around in
one and to overcome his aversion to them.  I sensed a great reluctance for
him to admit that he needs a wheelchair.  He was the same way with his
hearing aid, too.

With a little help from Paul, I called around discovered that the local
Wal-Mart  carries scooter batteries for less than the cheapest place I could
find on the net.  (They weigh a lot and UPS charges are about 2/3 the cost
of the batteries themselves!) I got a couple of deep cycle batteries, we
scraped and repainted the rust, cleaned and oiled all the working parts and
finally dropped in the new cells.  We were ready to take the first "test
drive."

With the chair and cover off to the side, I stepped on board like a chariot
driver, expecting to barely move.  Instead, I rocketed down the street like
a shot;  it must have been at least 12 mph.  Dad's eyes lit up and was as
eager as a little kid to climb on board and take his turn.  We remounted the
seat and he took it up and down the street, over to the neighbors house, all
around the house and back.  I haven't seen him smile like that in a long,
long time.  When he dismounted he said he hadn't been out and around in his
own neighborhood like that for at least 5 years.  I could tell he felt he
had just gotten back something that had been lost to him.

With its little horn, headlight and sideview mirror it was like a boy
getting his first bike.  I think a lot of the satisfaction came from
bringing an old, dusty scooter that hardly moved back to life.  Since my
Dad's gotten older, restoring things has become psychologically important to
him in a way I didn't realize until recently.  I don't think he ever got
over being forced to retire early.  :-(

So, thanks to all, especially Paul, for their input.  We're going to put the
Merits chair in the basement for his workshop and keep the folding chair in
case he needs to travel.

The next big issue to resolve is transporting the scooter.   I've been
researching all the lifts and ramps available and the options are
overwhelming.  I think of all the choices, I'd like to get him something
like a van with a power sliding door and a powered ramp that automatically
extends.

I've seen all the smiling pictures of seniors merrily attaching their chairs
to swing arm lifts like the Bruno models, but I don't see my Dad doing all
that.  I'm afraid if it's too difficult, he'll use it once or twice to prove
he can, and then just stop.  A power sliding door and ramp seem to be about
the easiest option, and it looks like only vans with lowered floors and
maybe even high tops are the only option that would allow him to drive the
chair into the vehicle.  I'm a little worried about side-entry doors because
of being "parked in."

I'd appreciate people telling me what works for them.  One option I
considered is a back-mounted lift.  But that's got a number of disadvantages
like fussing with locks, covers, driving a longer vehicle and driving one
with seriously altered driving characteristics as a result of all that
weight on the bumper.  The lifting part is turning out to be far worse than
the chair selection part.  <sigh>

Well, thanks for listening.  Any ideas on the least troublesome way to
transport a 3-wheel scooter will be greatly appreciated!

--
Bobby G.
Harvey R. Stone - 04 Aug 2005 15:31 GMT
Hi Bobby,,,   Thanks for posting this,,,, I enjoyed reading the story of it
and your part in taking care of your father.   If you have had Paul to help
you, you have had the best.   I do not have any suggestions other than to
say that I am sure you will solve all the problems with your dads input and
your gooo get em attitude,,,,things happen.
Harv

> (I thought I'd follow up on a thread from the past . . .)
>
[quoted text clipped - 141 lines]
> --
> Bobby G.
Robert Green - 04 Aug 2005 20:41 GMT
"Harvey R. Stone" <none@nobody.net> wrote in message

> Hi Bobby,,,   Thanks for posting this,,,, I enjoyed reading the story of it
> and your part in taking care of your father.

You're welcome, of course, Harv.  I wanted to share what I learned as well
as find out what other people are using for lifts.  When I found myself
worrying that Dad was going to skin his knees on his new (well, "nearly"
new) scooter I realized the Gerard Manley Hopkins quote was quite true: 'The
child is father to the man'.

In a way, it was like a father and son building a soapbox derby car.  We
really got to know each other again and I realized how much he needed a
project to work on after he was forced to retire.  I think the country
suffers as a whole when people with long years of experience are put to
pasture prematurely.  But that's a whole 'nother rant!

> If you have had Paul to help you, you have had the best.

Yes, he was *very* helpful.  I probably would still be waiting for new and
very expensive batteries to arrive had he not suggested some good local
alternatives.  It was also nice to know that the E&J chair I bought was
missing the same part that most of them are (the hinge pin that allows the
chair to fold like a manual wheelchair) and gave me an idea of what to
replace it with in an emergency (some 10 penny nails!)   He also
straightened out some misconceptions I had about renting powerchairs.

> I do not have any suggestions other than to say that I am sure
> you will solve all the problems with your dads input and
> your gooo get em attitude,,,,things happen.

Thanks.  I had a lot of good teachers throughout my life, and they always
encouraged me to "do my homework" and to research something before charging
into it blindly.  The internet has helped, too, because I soon learned to
"Google before asking."  When I first looked into powerchairs a few months
ago, I actually thought one of those tiny, autofolding Autogo 550's would
do.  Now I know better.

I didn't understand the differences between powerchairs and scooters,
mid-wheel and rear-wheel drives and a whole host of other details about
electric mobility aids.  A few weeks of reading through wheelchair sites on
the WWW and of actually getting my hands on different types of chairs and
scooters has really made a difference.  I'll never be an expert like Paul,
but I'm no longer a powerchair newbie, either!  :-)

--
Bobby G.
Carole - 04 Aug 2005 17:18 GMT
Hi Bob,

I know nothing about scooters, but I was really smiling when reading
about your Dad being able to go around his neighborhood for the first
time in years!  WAY TO GO!!!

Carole :)

> (I thought I'd follow up on a thread from the past . . .)
>
[quoted text clipped - 112 lines]
> --
> Bobby G.
Robert Green - 04 Aug 2005 22:33 GMT
"Carole" <SeattleCarole@hotmail.com> wrote in message

> Hi Bob,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Carole :)

Thanks!  It really was a "Kodak" moment for the both of us.  Too bad the
camera was inside!  The most interesting part for me was that his
orthopaedist was completely opposed to the scooter idea.  He told me that
people he's prescribed scooters for eventually ended up worse because they
no longer tried to walk under their own power.  That's not been true of Dad
at all.  It's as if he came back to life like magic.

We can hardly keep him from getting up early to ride down to the local park
for a "spin."  He gets plenty of excercise getting to and from the scooter.
It's exercise he wasn't getting before.  He couldn't have gone down to the
park before on his own two tortured feet, no way, no how.  Now he goes,
takes pictures of the birds and squirrels and sunrises and meets and talks
to lots of people.

The best part is he's happy, he's smiling.  It's as if one of the many
things taken away from him recently: his health, his job, his mobility, his
brother and even the family cat, :-(  was restored.

We're working on making him "mobile" - putting the scooter in a van so he
can take it to the mall, etc.  I'm kind of glad we're doing it one step at a
time because I can be sure he learns to "drive" it around the neighborhood
before I turn him loose on his own.

--
Bobby G.
Gwen Love - 04 Aug 2005 18:29 GMT
Bob, I've ridden in a van with the power side door and ramp for a
handicapped person, and they are really nice.  You can get a sign to put on
the outside asking people not to park nearby, but the best bet is to park
over the line where there isn't room for someone to park beside!  Good luck
with what you decide.
Gwen

> (I thought I'd follow up on a thread from the past . . .)
>
[quoted text clipped - 112 lines]
> --
> Bobby G.
Carole - 04 Aug 2005 19:01 GMT
Out here in Washington, there are disabled spaces just for vans and they
are marked "van accessible". There are wide stripes next to the parking
space so that there is room for the ramp.

Carole

> Bob, I've ridden in a van with the power side door and ramp for a
> handicapped person, and they are really nice.  You can get a sign to put on
[quoted text clipped - 209 lines]
>>--
>>Bobby G.
Gwen Love - 04 Aug 2005 19:36 GMT
that is true at some spaces in Alabama also.
Gwen

> Out here in Washington, there are disabled spaces just for vans and they
> are marked "van accessible". There are wide stripes next to the parking
[quoted text clipped - 215 lines]
> >>--
> >>Bobby G.
Robert Green - 04 Aug 2005 23:06 GMT
> Out here in Washington, there are disabled spaces just for vans and they
> are marked "van accessible". There are wide stripes next to the parking
> space so that there is room for the ramp.

We have those here, too.  But I've often seen people zip up in teeny cars or
motorcycles and fill those "landing zones."  Dad tires pretty easily and the
last thing I'd want for him to do is to have to wait in a hot shopping mall
parking lot until some bonehead came out and moved their car.  Every once in
a while Dad gets pretty feisty and I would hate for him to get involved in
any kind of confrontation with a handicapped space-squatting squid brain.

I think Gwen pointed me in the right direction.  I'll get both the rear
crane-type hoist and the power sider door and electric ramp.  That way
there's redundancy as well as insurance against being "parked in" by an
inconsiderate idiot.

--
Bobby G.
Duckie - 05 Aug 2005 22:33 GMT
That is true in Mass as well and people are constantly
parking in the stripped line section. I once countered
someone who did that with 'its for the handicap' and
their answer was that it was not marked. Well, that is
true and I couldn't answer that so said nothing. Wasn't
going to explain to an idiot that a wheelchair car
needed the space. sigh
Duckie

> Out here in Washington, there are disabled spaces just for vans and they
> are marked "van accessible". There are wide stripes next to the parking
[quoted text clipped - 232 lines]
>>> Well, thanks for listening.  Any ideas on the least troublesome way to
>>> transport a 3-wheel scooter will be greatly appreciated!

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Robert Green - 06 Aug 2005 00:24 GMT
Yep - I'm afraid of the potential for confrontation.  I think things are
looking bad for the handicapped.  A number of stores around here have moved
their handicapped spaces from the front of the store to the farthest edge of
the front row.  I'll bet it was in response to complaints they got from
people who were ticketed for parking there.  The handicapped spots by the
grocery store are almost always filled - there just aren't enough of them.
:-(

--
Bobby G.

> That is true in Mass as well and people are constantly
> parking in the stripped line section. I once countered
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> >
> > Carole
Carole - 06 Aug 2005 01:32 GMT
Duckie, if they were dumb enough to park on the stripes, I'm sure they
wouldn't have understood what you were saying anyway :)))

Beam me up, Scotty!

Carole :)

> That is true in Mass as well and people are constantly parking in the
> stripped line section. I once countered someone who did that with 'its
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>>
>> Carole
Robert Green - 04 Aug 2005 22:58 GMT
> Bob, I've ridden in a van with the power side door and ramp for a
> handicapped person, and they are really nice.

I really think it's the way to go for Dad, but I'm just not sure anything
short of a step van will be tall enough for him to ride the scooter into the
vehicle.  I'm reluctant to have him "walk" it up the ramp under power.  I
might consider putting a boat winch inside the van that he could hook the
scooter to and have it pull the scooter inside.  It's becoming clear I need
to visit a mobility dealership to get a look at how the various options work
in the real world.

> You can get a sign to put on the outside asking people
> not to park nearby,

Bless your heart, you still have faith in your fellow man.  :-)  Based on
the number of time I see people without permits parking in the clearly
marked handicapped spaces when I am out with Dad, I'm pretty confident
nothing short of a pile of cinderblocks would keep some people out of the
"landing area."

> but the best bet is to park over the line where there isn't room
> for someone to park beside!  Good luck with what you decide.
> Gwen

Amen!  The trouble with that is Dad's an engineer and he doesn't color or
park outside the lines.  Really!  :-)  He would be too afraid of getting a
ticket for "improper parking."

Maybe a traffic cone that's chained to the van with a sign that says
"Warning, mobility equipment may deploy suddenly.  Not responsible for
damage to cars illegally parked in the handicapped zone" would encourge them
not to zip a motorcyle or a little Geo into the hatch-marked space dedicated
to wheelchair lifts and ramps.

Ya know, Gwen, you've got me thinking that perhaps a lift in the back AND a
ramp on the side is what he needs.  That way, if he's parked in, he can use
the rear lift and if he's not, he can use the ramp.  Dual entry aids will
also ensure he's not stuck with no way to get home if either the lift or the
ramp fails.  I knew I came here for a reason!  Thanks!

(I love the net!)

--
Bobby G.
Paul T. Holland - 10 Aug 2005 22:55 GMT
bobby

i know it's probably not what you want, but would you be interested in a bruno
trunk lift - for free????
301-495-0277

paul

> > Bob, I've ridden in a van with the power side door and ramp for a
> > handicapped person, and they are really nice.
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> --
> Bobby G.
Robert Green - 12 Aug 2005 11:13 GMT
> bobby
>
> i know it's probably not what you want, but would you be interested in a bruno
> trunk lift - for free????
> 301-495-0277

That's awfully nice of you, Paul!   I've looked at the Bruno product line
and they're very nicely made but I wonder if it would fit in a small car
like Dad's Accord.  Which model do you have?

--
Bobby G.
Paul T. Holland - 12 Aug 2005 19:25 GMT
ASL-350, with the offset arm - don't know enough about the accord to judge but
it's available if you want.

be well

paul

> > bobby
> >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> --
> Bobby G.
Robert Green - 13 Aug 2005 01:51 GMT
> ASL-350, with the offset arm - don't know enough about the accord to judge but
> it's available if you want.

That's great.  I think that's the only one that has a chance of fitting in
Dad's Accord or Mom's Toy Yoda!  I will try to call this weekend.  If it
does fit, you'll at least have to let me make a donation to your favorite
charity in your name.  I'd feel guilty, otherwise, and I am already awash in
the guilt of waiting so long to make Dad mobile.  Say, isn't there a song by
the Who called "Goin' Mobile?"

Thanks again for your all your advice and your kind offer of the lift, Paul.
It is very deeply appreciated.  I've got to confess, I am brought to near
tears when I read here and in the other support groups about how so many
people suffer in this country from lack of basic medical care and equipment
while we spend countless billons bringing "democracy" to Iraq and
Afghanistan.  We need to take care of our own a hell of a lot better than we
do before we go adventuring with money borrowed from the Social Security
Trust Fund!  <sermon over>

--
Bobby G.
Bonnie Brien - 14 Aug 2005 05:09 GMT
I don't want joy stick chairs--the controller is way too sensitive-- and
no floor for shopping bags

I am used to 3-wheeel scooters

Bonnie
Bonnie Brien - 06 Aug 2005 02:15 GMT
Use a UHAUL  trailer to transport a scoot.  As we had done on a second
trip to Tennessee

Bonnie
Robert Green - 06 Aug 2005 03:34 GMT
"Bonnie Brien" <scooter_girl_01@webtv.net> wrote in message

> Use a UHAUL  trailer to transport a scoot.  As we had done on a second
> trip to Tennessee
>
> Bonnie

That's a good idea for a long haul.  It's probably a good idea to get a real
trailer hitch installed with the lift and ramp, too.  My major concern is
how to make it easy enough for someone with pretty severe OA in the hands
and feet to maneuver a scooter around in a suburban environment.

Thanks for the suggestion!

--
Bobby G.
Pope Pie \(Sy Lehrman\) - 06 Apr 2005 02:53 GMT
> Dad has a Jazzy 1113 and is very happy with it. We decided that a chair
> would be more functional than a scooter since it can be driven up to a
> table without a tiller getting in the way.

My sister got a zJazzy and finds it quite good, but she was so used to
having the tiller in front on the scooter that she was really scared of
ramps with nothing in front to hold on to.  She has gotten used to it, but
still doesn't like it.
Robert Green - 12 Aug 2005 11:11 GMT
"Pope Pie (Sy Lehrman)" <jnstewar@midstatesd.net> wrote in

> My sister got a zJazzy and finds it quite good, but she was so used to
> having the tiller in front on the scooter that she was really scared of
> ramps with nothing in front to hold on to.  She has gotten used to it, but
> still doesn't like it.

My Dad prefers the scooter to the chair for outside and vice-versa for
inside.  The chair seems much harder for him to steer and he's already
banged up his foot crashing into a wall while using it.  He likes the tiller
for a lot of reasons, the least of which is the way it acts like a bumper
instead of his feet!  But the chair is much better inside because it turns
on a dime and he can slide under tables without too much effort as long as
he swings the outrageously large joystick and controller out of the way!

--
Bobby G.
spodosaurus - 12 Aug 2005 11:28 GMT
> "Pope Pie (Sy Lehrman)" <jnstewar@midstatesd.net> wrote in
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> --
> Bobby G.

I'm going to have to go back and read this thread via google groups. I
passed it over because I never thought it would apply to me. With two
broken feet and spinal fractures (plus the osteonecrosis and the other
suspected fractures that we're not going to make me sit through multiple
MRIs to confirm) we had to go in today to get information about getting
a scooter and a deployment system for our car. I had a look at two that
would suit, both were small, light, and easy to manouvre. The one I'll
probbaly end up going with had a very light seat that would just lift
off vertically (know crouching down to release pins) and also uses a key
(in case I have to try and move on my crutches I won't have to worry
about someone going for a joyride while I'm away). It was called a GoGo.
I can't operate a wheelchair with the damage in my arms, the line in my
chest, etc, so this seems like pretty much our only option to let me go
the places I need to on my own.

Cheers,

Ari

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I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
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Harvey R. Stone - 12 Aug 2005 15:18 GMT
> I can't operate a wheelchair with the damage in my arms, the line in my
> chest, etc, so this seems like pretty much our only option to let me go
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Ari

Good for you Ari,,,, you are worth it.
Harv
Paul T. Holland - 12 Aug 2005 19:36 GMT
bobby - tell him that doorway and wall crashes are the 'normal' thing for almost
every new driver to encounter - we all did something similar!!!!!! on average -
about a month of daily use to get to the point of being able to drive by
'reflex'.

also - did you check the joystick settings?  some models can be tuned 'down' for
indoor use, and back up for outdoor.
lower sensitivity makes it easier to handle reaction time while learning...also
- check hand position - sometimes the joystick is too close  [in bound towards
the elbow] and needs to be pulled out further to the front.

be well

paul

> "Pope Pie (Sy Lehrman)" <jnstewar@midstatesd.net> wrote in
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> --
> Bobby G.
Robert Green - 13 Aug 2005 01:44 GMT
> bobby - tell him that doorway and wall crashes are the 'normal' thing for almost
> every new driver to encounter - we all did something similar!!!!!! on average -
> about a month of daily use to get to the point of being able to drive by
> 'reflex'.

He's gotten a heck of a lot better at driving in just a few short weeks!
The doorway wood has paid the price, though.  The leg support brackets
extend like a wicked pair of horns.  I covered both with tennis balls
(learned that trick somewhere on the web!) but a little too late to save the
bedroom door jambs!  He's fine using the fold-up footplate which has a much
smaller "footprint."  I would hacksaw the supports off if I weren't afraid
he might need them some day.

BTW, I have him scheduled for an IBOT test drive, but my preliminary
research shows that while it can climb stairs and elevate the user to eye
level, a normal powerchair is really much better at getting around in the
house.

> also - did you check the joystick settings?  some models can be tuned 'down' for
> indoor use, and back up for outdoor.

It's a programmable controller, so my research says, but it requires special
gear to do it.  I'm thinking there may be dust or dirt in the assembly
because the rubber boot is broken at the bottom.  Every once in a while the
chair will twitch to the left or the right, even when I am driving it, and
my hands are pretty steady.  I think he'll be fine with the scooter outdoors
and the powerchair indoors.

It's clear that buying 3 different units was the right thing to do.  One's
always charging, one's in use and the other is in pieces on the workbench!
Oh, I wanted to add (with pride) that the E&J hinge pin problem is solved.
The solution was pretty simple.  I was rummaging in the junk HW box and
found an old door hinge.  One look at the pin and a little light came on in
my head:  "Wheelchair hinge is very much like a door hinge!"  A little
hacksawing, a bit of drilling and grinding and it's fixed even better than
new.  I've wired the pins so that they won't work loose like the cotter pins
did.  Total cost: $3 and some time.  I wonder what E&J would have charged?

> lower sensitivity makes it easier to handle reaction time while learning...also
> - check hand position - sometimes the joystick is too close  [in bound towards
> the elbow] and needs to be pulled out further to the front.

I just wish they didn't have that huge controller box hanging off the front
arm the way they do.  I think the real issue is that Dad has a hard time
with the fine motor movements needed to control a joystick.  The scooter
doesn't give him any trouble at all (but it worries me - it's way too fast
dialed up to the max but he likes it that way).  I think that's because the
steering and power controls operate in such a different way than a joystick.
He's already got a buddy that he "jogs" with each day (Mr. O actually jogs,
Dad just rides along with him).  I had no idea a scooter could be such a
conversation starter.

Despite all the kudos I received when I first posted, I am feeling a little
bit ashamed that I didn't notice how withdrawn Dad had become in the past
few years over his lack of mobility.  Now he's searching the web looking for
scooter friendly cruise lines, making new friends and *smiling.*  I really
feel like a dope for buying into the orthopedist's line that putting someone
in a scooter is sentencing them to death.  Oddly enough, Mom's got issues
now.  I think she got used to Dad the way he had become and this new, reborn
husband is changing that relationship dynamic.  Human beings are pretty darn
complicated!

Dad also has serious problems with computer mice of any kind and I have
bought nearly every model of mouse in the universe to try to find one that's
workable for him.   We found that the old PS/2 MS Intellimouse trackball is
the best of the lot and thanks to Ebay, I've bought a couple in case
something happens to his.  Of course, now that I have *two* spares, the
original will last until the Rapture.

> be well

And you.  Thanks again for you input and your very generous offer of the
lift.  I've already warned Dad he might have a thank you note or two to
write.

--
Bobby G.
Robert Green - 18 Aug 2005 07:20 GMT
Hi Paul,

Thanks so much for the Bruno trunk lift. I brought it over to Dad’s house
last night. I’ve been giving him printouts of various screenshots of the
many models of lifts and things and immediately wanted to see the "business
end" with the lifting motor. I said, "Dad, it’s a little too heavy for you."
(The truth be known, the motor head was a little too heavy even for me!) He
said "nonsense, let me see!"

I can’t remember him being so insistent about something for a long time. So
I placed it in his lap and he sat there, running his hands back and forth
over the black enamel arm and the shiny motor case as if it were Excalibur
pulled from the stone. He asked me where I got it. I said it was a generous
gift from Paul Holland, the Internet guy. "The who?" (I’ll bet he thought I
was saying Paul Holland was the ONE guy who ran the *entire* Internet!) So I
told him that Paul was the man who had answered all the scooter questions we
had in the beginning and told us where to find batteries at a good price.

He went back to studiously examining the lift arm again, clearly matching up
all the pictures and diagrams he had seen with the reality of the carefully
engineered metal contraption that was now in his hands. He pointed out how
well-made it was, how the steel was as thick as battleship armor plating and
the welds were thick, strong and precisely laid down. Then he asked how much
it cost. I said "It didn’t cost anything. I told you; it was a gift. Paul
Holland gave it to uyou for free!" He looked up at me again and said, with
one eyebrow raised the way he does when he’s trying to figure something out.
"The Internet?"

(Dad’s too old to have really gotten the concept of the Internet. I think
for him the net has always been some foggy other-worldly sort of
neighborhood just six blocks west and a few more blocks south. Sort of like
NYC’s "The Village" or the Atlanta Underground. He vaguely knew of these
places, but I think he felt that wherever it was, it was always, in some
way, out of HIS reach.) I started to explain who you all were, and how
supportive everyone is of each other in this group. I could tell I was
losing him when I told him what a tireless spambuster and quack debunker
Paul was. So I went back to the lift and told him you said it needed a
little work; the fuselink was gone and it might need a little polishing here
and there.

By this time he was cradling it like a Stradivarius in need of a little
waxing and some serious TLC. He didn’t look up as he said, again, and more
questioningly, "the Internet?" again. "Well, Dad," I said, "it didn’t just
pop out of thin air, it’s Paul Holland’s generosity that got it here. He
runs the Wheelchair Society.

As I watched his stiff fingers move up and down the motor arm I couldn’t
help but think about what a tough life he had; much tougher than mine or my
friends. His father died when he was 10 and the family was evicted soon
after in the middle of the Depression because they couldn’t make the looming
balloon mortgage payment on the house. He wanted to play the saxophone but
he started work when he was twelve and worked every day, sometimes at two
jobs a day, and managed to get two master’s degrees in spite of that by the
time my sister and I were born.

Just recently he’s lost his prized pussycat who was his tireless companion,
and he’s lost his older brother. But he’s been married to the same woman for
60 years and supported our family through two near fatal heart attacks and
so many of our crises I’ve lost count. Mom’s cooked a special diet for him
for nearly 40 years now.

Though he never says it, I know what he feels when he sees people eating the
kind of foods that he used to love. Foods that are "kryptonite" to him now
with both diabetes and a serious heart condition. And I know how much mean
old Mr. Arthur Rightis bothers him, though mostly by what he doesn’t, rather
than does, say. I don’t know what, but I couldn’t help thinking of my
earliest memories of Dad. Running to the front door at precisely 5:30PM with
my sister right beside me, jumping up and down and squealing "Daddy’s
home!!! Daddy’s HOME!!!"

No matter how hard the workday was, no matter how tired he was, he would
always take the time to pull something magical for both of us out of his
"beefcase" (I was too young to pronounce "R" in "briefcase" very well!). It
always made me feel that wherever he was during the day, he was always
thinking of us. Dad also felt he had to be strong for all of us, and outside
of his mother’s and brother’s funerals, I don’t think I had ever seen him
cry.

He asked me again, just to be sure I guess, "Your friend Paul gave this to
me?" with his brow furrowed as if it didn’t compute. I guess he’s been
beaten down so long it was hard for him to believe in human kindness
anymore. That’s when I saw a big, fat tear roll out of his eye, making a
bull's-eye on the letter "B" in the word "Bruno" on the lift arm. I started
to choke up, too, because *he* was so moved.

He saw that I saw the tear and he tried to casually wipe it away with his
hands as if it were a speck of dust, well, because he was the "The Daddy"
and Daddies don’t cry in front of their children. It was then I realized
something profound: the father I grew up with, the man who could fix
anything, the man who wasn’t afraid of any challenge, was back. And I
realized just how very long he had been gone.

They say that there are single, compelling acts of humanity that can change
the course of lives, if not the course of history. Well, Paul, this was one
such act and in one stroke you reached out and pulled Dad back from whatever
dark place the world had driven him into. It’s way past my bedtime and I am
getting a little farklempt again, so I will thank you once again for your
generosity and the way it touched my Dad’s spirit with two of my favorite
quotes:

We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give.
-- Winston Churchill:

"Many men have been capable of doing a wise thing, more a cunning thing, but
very few a generous thing"
-- Alexander Pope

Daddy’s finally come home again. Thanks, Paul, for helping him find his way
back with your generous spirit.

Bobby G.
Newsgroup Spambuster - 18 Aug 2005 14:24 GMT
Bobbie,

What an incredibly touching story!!!   Thanks so very much for sharing
it with us and God bless you Paul for all you do for others!!!

Hugs!

Donna G
Robert Green - 20 Aug 2005 11:04 GMT
"Newsgroup Spambuster" <ngspambuster@webtv.net>

> Bobbie,
>
> What an incredibly touching story!!!   Thanks so very much for sharing
> it with us and God bless you Paul for all you do for others!!!

On the humorous side, Mom saw the lift after we had set it up in the
workshop and because it had a rounded cap and the word "Bruno" written
across it she asked "It that a robot?"  When I told her what it was and
where it came from she then asked "Find out if Paul can eat pie, and what
kind he likes!"

--
Bobby G.
Harvey R. Stone - 18 Aug 2005 14:55 GMT
Thank you sooo much for this story in your life.   I am going to be very
honest with you when I say that Paul has been involved in many stories just
like this and does not have a need to be patted on the back for it but we do
it anyway.    It is a real true to life story of how people can help each
other when someone else is having a time of need,,,, is in need of support
in more ways than what money can buy.   It really gets back to you being
there for your dad, Bobby.   The good book says for us to honor our mother
and father and you are doing just that.   Thanks again for your honesty and
story but we already knew about Paul.
Harv
> Hi Paul,
>
[quoted text clipped - 139 lines]
>
> Bobby G.
Robert Green - 20 Aug 2005 12:57 GMT
> Thank you sooo much for this story in your life.   I am going to be very
> honest with you when I say that Paul has been involved in many stories just
> like this and does not have a need to be patted on the back for it but we do
> it anyway.

Well, I thought it was important to thank him and add that Dad said "This
guy really knows what it's like to have arthritis because he didn't use
those darn impossible to untwist wire ties.  He used waxed twine that you
can remove with a simple pull!"  He was *so* impressed by that little
detail.  It was an acknowledgement that other people know what it's like to
have fingers that don't dance as well as they once did.

> It is a real true to life story of how people can help
> each other when someone else is having a time of
> need,,,, is in need of support in more ways than what
> money can buy.   It really gets back to you being
> there for your dad, Bobby.

And Paul being there for him, too.  It changed his whole perception of the
world.  Like I said earlier, I feel bad in a way.  I hadn't noticed how
withdrawn Dad had become lately.  The secret, I think, is that now he's not
just a passive patient, he's doing things to help in his own recovery and
knows that there are people really interested in helping.

It makes such a difference to feel him to feel that he's in control, and not
just another patient popping a handful of pills each day.  He wants me to
drive him over to Paul's to thank him in person.  He's also given me a list
of things to buy like spray paint, silicone sealant and a 20A circuit
breaker.  When I asked him where I was going to get all this stuff, he said,
of course, "the Internet!"  :-)

> The good book says for us to honor our mother
> and father and you are doing just that.   Thanks
> again for your honesty and story but we already
> knew about Paul.

I'm just tickled that when I was young my Dad was building carts and wagons
for me and now the table is turned.  I learned a lot about disability, too.
I was surprised to discover a lot of information on disabled artists and
disabled people throughout history.  The Norse gods look like they came from
a re-hab clinic! Odin the father of all gods sacrificed an eye to gain
wisdom.  Tyr is the god of war and he sacrificed a hand.  Odin's son Hodur
is blind.  For the Norse disabilities were not a stigma, but often a sign of
greatness or wisdom.

I never knew Oedipus' name meant swollen foot" and he may not have been able
to solve the Sphinx's riddle without the knowledge of limping gained from
his wound.

--
Bobby G.
Gwen Love - 18 Aug 2005 17:33 GMT
Bobby, thanks for sharing that with us. And Paul, thank you for making it
possible.  God bless.
Gwen

> Hi Paul,
>
> Thanks so much for the Bruno trunk lift. I brought it over to Dad's house
> last night. I've been giving him printouts of various screenshots of the
> many models of lifts and things and immediately wanted to see the "business
> end" with the lifting motor. I said, "Dad, it's a little too heavy for
you."
> (The truth be known, the motor head was a little too heavy even for me!) He
> said "nonsense, let me see!"
>
> I can't remember him being so insistent about something for a long time.
So
> I placed it in his lap and he sat there, running his hands back and forth
> over the black enamel arm and the shiny motor case as if it were Excalibur
> pulled from the stone. He asked me where I got it. I said it was a generous
> gift from Paul Holland, the Internet guy. "The who?" (I'll bet he thought
I
> was saying Paul Holland was the ONE guy who ran the *entire* Internet!) So I
> told him that Paul was the man who had answered all the scooter questions we
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Holland gave it to uyou for free!" He looked up at me again and said, with
> one eyebrow raised the way he does when he's trying to figure something
out.
> "The Internet?"
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> friends. His father died when he was 10 and the family was evicted soon
> after in the middle of the Depression because they couldn't make the
looming
> balloon mortgage payment on the house. He wanted to play the saxophone but
> he started work when he was twelve and worked every day, sometimes at two
> jobs a day, and managed to get two master's degrees in spite of that by
the
> time my sister and I were born.
>
> Just recently he's lost his prized pussycat who was his tireless
companion,
> and he's lost his older brother. But he's been married to the same woman
for
> 60 years and supported our family through two near fatal heart attacks and
> so many of our crises I've lost count. Mom's cooked a special diet for him
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> with both diabetes and a serious heart condition. And I know how much mean
> old Mr. Arthur Rightis bothers him, though mostly by what he doesn't,
rather
> than does, say. I don't know what, but I couldn't help thinking of my
> earliest memories of Dad. Running to the front door at precisely 5:30PM with
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> such act and in one stroke you reached out and pulled Dad back from whatever
> dark place the world had driven him into. It's way past my bedtime and I
am
> getting a little farklempt again, so I will thank you once again for your
> generosity and the way it touched my Dad's spirit with two of my favorite
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Daddy's finally come home again. Thanks, Paul, for helping him find his
way
> back with your generous spirit.
>
> Bobby G.
Robert Green - 20 Aug 2005 14:31 GMT
> Bobby, thanks for sharing that with us. And Paul, thank you for making it
> possible.  God bless.
> Gwen

Amen!

--
Bobby G.
Diane - 21 Aug 2005 16:02 GMT
bobby, et al. i just caught up with this long thread. it brought tears
to my eyes to read about your love, compassion and understanding of
your father and how best to meet his needs. you are a wonderful son.
i'm so glad you and paul linked up, because as you've learned, he knows
his stuff and is good about sharing it.

i loved reading about your father's first ride on his scooter! i felt
the same way when i frist got my scooter and took off for the park,
where i'd not been able to go for a couple of years. i was grinning ear
to ear. the feeling of freedom is extraordinary.

my sister also uses a scooter (she has MS) and she has a "kneeling van"
with a ramp. once inside the van, she transfers to the driver's seat.
if someone parks in the handicapped spot, she parks somewhere else in
the lot and parks diagnally so she reserves room for the ramp.

diane
Robert Green - 22 Aug 2005 09:18 GMT
> bobby, et al. i just caught up with this long thread. it brought tears
> to my eyes to read about your love, compassion and understanding of
> your father and how best to meet his needs. you are a wonderful son.
> i'm so glad you and paul linked up, because as you've learned, he knows
> his stuff and is good about sharing it.

Hi, Diane - you're the Rascal (driver) aren't you?  ;-)

I told a friend about Paul's generosity today and I got the same
"tripletake" response from HIM!  "The Internet?"  And I corrected him again,
no, *Paul* whom I *met* on the Internet!  This friend knew the trials and
tribulations we've been going through getting Dad mobile.  In fact, he was
shanghaied into fetching a rather ratty looking folding powerchair from
somewhere in South Jersey a month or so ago.  Now I owe Paul something, but
I am not quite sure how to repay him.  Mom says "Pies" but I feel I should
make some contribution somewhere in kind.

(Just had one of those late night magic moments where I heard a noise in the
basement, thought it was the dog, then looked over to the top of the stairs
to see Slappy  --the dog with the ears so big you can hear them clap against
her body as she walks -- was in full radar ear mode, looking down the stairs
and looking very, very worried. "What's down there Slappy?  Go get it!"
She's looking back and me with eyes that say "You don't really want me to go
down there?  Not *really?*"  She would if I insisted, she's such a good dog.
She even wears hats for the little girl next door (but not for us!)  I think
it was one of the many boxes I've been rattling through to find some of the
parts Dad needs to "soup up" his powerchair. - back to the message!)

> i loved reading about your father's first ride on his scooter! i felt
> the same way when i frist got my scooter and took off for the park,
> where i'd not been able to go for a couple of years. i was grinning ear
> to ear. the feeling of freedom is extraordinary.

Everyone who saw it said we all looked like little kids, fighting over who
got the next turn.  But it meant the most to Dad, because he hadn't even
been across the street for 3 years or more, let alone up and down the whole
block and around the cul-de-sac.

I'm usually not given to the mystical, but when he disappeared out of sight
down the road I felt as if giant rubber band pulled me back to the moment
that Dad's hand left the back of my first two-wheeled bike and he watched
*me* fade off into the distance (worrying like crazy, I'll bet, the way I
worried as Dad rode off).  The circle of life has completed another cycle.

> my sister also uses a scooter (she has MS) and she has a "kneeling van"
> with a ramp.

Yep.  I've decided that's the best.  Has she had any problems with the
kneeling function?  I'm worried that it will kneel the wrong way at a high
kerb and cut half the car off.  I also understand a lowered floor is very
helpful to keep the chair rider from beaning themselves on the roof.  Dad
plans to drive himself, but I think we'll be doing most of the driving.

> once inside the van, she transfers to the driver's seat.

I've seen some beautiful vans with automatic sliding seats that turn to face
rearward for seat transfer.  I haven't had to cojones to spend that kind of
money on Ebay yet, but I did buy a month long subscription to CarFax so I
could get the history of each car I bid on.  Highly recommended.

> if someone parks in the handicapped spot, she parks somewhere else in
> the lot and parks diagnally so she reserves room for the ramp.

This is the only problem I can't really solve as well as I would like.  I've
seen too many people park in the lined-out zone next to the handicapped
spaces.  I truly fear my Dad getting very rattled by that and backing over
the scooter or something worse trying to cope.  I'd love to get him to think
about the diagonal parking move, but Dad's just too old school to do
anything except park between the lines.  It might take me doing it ten times
in a row without getting ticketed or towed to convince him to try it.

He's like our old, dear departed Irish Setter, Bailey.  As she got older,
she had a hard time coping with change and got easily rattled.  She became
terrified of the garbage men and would spend garbage day curled up in the
bathtub.

Dad had a minor stroke getting into an argument with his brother about
nonsense, and you can imagine how much I want to shield him from some
stunada picking a fight over a handicapped spot.  I've already seen some
pretty outrageous behavior just driving him around and using his car with
the HP plates.

I'm seriously thinking of getting a traffic cone and a long bike lock cable
so that he can deploy it next to the van when he goes into the store.  I
think if people have to push a cone aside, they might not be so thoughtless
about blocking a rampway.  That's just one more thing for him to worry
about, though, and he often has to leave stores early because he doesn't
feel well and can't continue shopping.  Schlepping traffic cones on cables
around isn't the best solution.  <sigh>

--
Bobby G.
Duckie - 22 Aug 2005 18:36 GMT
Hey Bobby - got to this late as was out of town but
does your dad have a cell phone. When someone blocked
the door to my car [drivers side] parking in the street
next to the handicap space, I called the non emergency
police number to request they ticket the guy and get
whoever it was to move along.
Duckie

.....

> Hi, Diane - you're the Rascal (driver) aren't you?  ;-)
>
[quoted text clipped - 82 lines]
> --
> Bobby G.

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Robert Green - 08 Apr 2005 05:41 GMT
> My father has Parkinson's, and cannot walk more than a few
> steps, and then only with a cane in one hand and someone
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> found to require a scooter/power-wheeled chair, medicare
> might pay for it.

That's an issue with my Dad as well.  It seems that Medicare recently
tightened the eligibility rules for scooters.  Another problem I may
encounter is Dad's orthopedist has already told me more than once that he's
reluctant to prescribe scooters to borderline patients because he feels they
always invariably decline once they don't have to walk much anymore.

The problem is that Dad has stopped going out of the house almost completely
due to the vulnerability he feels out in public.  He's fallen down a few
times, once in a shopping mall and once at the doctor's office and after
that he's been really reluctant to go out.

> The doctor contacted the therapy department at the
> hospital and had them send a PT out to the house.
> After the eval, they helped us start the paper work and contacted a local
> supply house with which they deal.

Interesting.  There are probably several ways to go about this  I'd like to
choose the one that is the least painful for him.  I know he's complained on
more than one occasion about painful "range of motion" exams and other
procedures.  If getting a chair through Medicare means going out for another
trip without a scooter then I'm willing to just buy what he wants and sort
out the Medicare stuff later.  I think he'll need two scooters anyway.

> Medicare did purchase an electric wheeled chair for dad, though I had to
> buy accessories (such as a swing-away control unit and a ramp for getting
> it in and out of our minivan).
>
> Dad has a Jazzy 1113 and is very happy with it.

That's good to know.  A few years back when we first considered buy a chair
for Dad one of the local DME salesmen I talked to said Medicare would only
pay for a nearly useless cheap chair.  From what I can tell, that's not
true.  Why am I getting the feeling that all of the tricks used by car
salesmen are also in the arsenal of the powerchair salesmen?

> We decided that a chair would be more functional than a scooter
> since it can be driven up to a table without a tiller getting in the way.

That's become a serious consideration.  I think he prefers a scooter because
there's some sort of security from a tiller up front but I'm not so sure his
arthritis will agree that a scooter is more comfortable.

Thanks for your input

--
Bobby G.
 
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