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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Arthritis / April 2005

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OTP:   Don't mess with granny

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firechief - 31 Mar 2005 18:23 GMT
83-Year-Old Tenn. Woman Wrestles, Shoots at Intruder in Her Home
March 30, 2005 15:34

KINGSPORT, Tenn. --  An 83-year-old woman fought with an intruder
in her home and fired two shots at him before he fled with her gun
and purse.

Mark Foulk, 44, of Fall Branch, was pulled over by a Sullivan County
Sheriff's deputy about 20 minutes later and charged with DUI and
speeding.

Authorities at the jail found glass in his pockets and cuts on his
hands and a gun and purse in his car. He was then charged with
robbery and aggravated burglary.

An intruder broke into the house of Clara Groseclose early Tuesday.
She heard a noise downstairs, retrieved a handgun and went to check
on it.

Groseclose encountered a man near a broken window, and he demanded
money, police said.

She struggled with the man and fired two rounds at him. Police said
Foulk had an abrasion on his face that could have come from the
muzzle of the gun when it was fired.

The man took Groseclose's gun and purse and fled.

She had a minor cut on her knee from the struggle but was not
seriously injured.
                               ___
Harvey R. Stone - 31 Mar 2005 19:02 GMT
> 83-Year-Old Tenn. Woman Wrestles, Shoots at Intruder in Her Home
> March 30, 2005 15:34
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> She had a minor cut on her knee from the struggle but was not seriously
> injured

Ooooh,  I do not like this story.   Why in the world should an old person
struggle with someone that is braking into their house.    One warning,,,,,
shoot to kill.

Harv
firechief - 31 Mar 2005 21:13 GMT
Harv wrote:

> One warning,,,,, shoot to kill.
>
> Harv

That is what every firearms class teaches.
I learned it in the military and I learned it
in the police academy.

You    NEVER   shoot to warn or disarm.

... If things get worse, I'll have to ask you to stop helping me.
Jo Firey - 31 Mar 2005 22:26 GMT
> Harv wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> ... If things get worse, I'll have to ask you to stop helping me.

This is why we don't have guns in the house, though we both know how to use
them.  When you add a gun to a situation it becomes more dangerous for you
as well as for them.

Jo
Harvey R. Stone - 01 Apr 2005 00:39 GMT
> This is why we don't have guns in the house, though we both know how to
> use them.  When you add a gun to a situation it becomes more dangerous for
> you as well as for them.
>
> Jo

The thing is,,, a person should never draw or get out a gun unless it is to
protect themselves or the family.  I am glad that life has not put you in
this kind of situation.  I am glad that you do not have to have the
responsibility of protecting your family from anyone.    Dangerous for you
as well for them,,,, does not apply in my case and I do not believe in
threats and I do not believe in killing people unless it is to protect my
home.    Sorry,
I did not mean to go on and on.
Harv
firechief - 01 Apr 2005 06:52 GMT
Harv wrote:

> I do not believe in killing people unless it is to protect my
> home.

From California, a few paragraphs for civilians:

Homicide is justifiable when comitted in defense of habitation,
property or person.

Homicide is justifiable when committed bt any person in the
defense of  such person, or of a life or husband, parent, child,
master, mistress, or servant of such person.

... Experiencing synaptical difficulties.  Please stand by.
Norman Lampert - 01 Apr 2005 07:10 GMT
Just a few comments...

Many people get overconfident when they have a weapon of any type and
forget to look for other ways out of a situation.

I had combat experience in the service and I qualified with many types
and sizes of firearms. I don't own a gun because of the "false bravery
factor" and because of a study done in New York a number of years ago in
which they determined that about half of the shots fired by police in
street situations at ranges beyond five feet missed their intended
target.

Taking your time in a well lit target range when you're well rested is
very different from finding yourself in a chancy situation in a dark rain
when you're short of sleep.

I've known a number of police officers and some ER nurses who have had
quite a few horror stories about weapons "mishaps".

I do carry a cell phone and will call authorities when I think that they
may be needed. It is always better to call once too often than to not
call when I should have.
Harvey R. Stone - 01 Apr 2005 18:51 GMT
> Just a few comments...
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> may be needed. It is always better to call once too often than to not
> call when I should have.

All true bones and part of life.   I can give you more stories of people
forced to watch while their home was plundered and/or family members abused
but it is over kill to leave people with these mental pictures.   I have a
right to protect my home and to own a gun to do it or use anything else I
need to,,,, bat, knife, ect.   Just like you have the choice not to defend
what's yours.

Harv
Norman Lampert - 02 Apr 2005 21:04 GMT
I defend what is mine (quite effectively) without firearms.

There are also too many people who think they need a gun to defend their
homes against snowball throwing children or who think that they need to
prove themselves to the person in the next car who has "disrespected
them".

I have been in various gun shops and have seen people who rather
obviously don't even know how to hold the the things which they "need to
have" to be able to "protect themselves" (and how much they need to argue
with the people they want to "protect" that this protection is
necessary).

I might feel differently if these people also took functional anger
management courses (and then passed an evaluation), properly locked their
weapons whenever they were not at a target range and it could be proven
that they stayed away from these weapons when they had been drinking or
were very tired.

I work in City Hall and know many of the police who work in the police
evidence room. They all agree that the majority of people who own guns
are not mature (or even sane) enough to realistically have them.

An important rule for people who insist on owning a gun...

You can't pull show a weapon in an attempt to "convince" the other person
that "they really don't want to do that".
YOUR WEAPON DOES NOT CLEAR YOUR HOLSTER UNTIL THE INSTANT YOU ARE GOING
TO FIRE IT.
The only people who can hold a weapon in their hand without immediately
using it are police or other security forces WHO ARE ACTING IN A POSITION
OF AUTHORITY.
Even more important is that YOU DON'T FIRE A WEAPON UNLESS THERE IS
ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER SANE AND RATIONAL ALTERNATIVE.
A person calling you names is not sufficient reason! A person who is
making verbal threats is not sufficient reason! (you should try to record
these threats and give a copy of the recording to the police)
IF YOU, AND THOSE IN YOUR CARE, CAN SAFELY LEAVE THE VICINITY (WITHOUT
BEING INJURED) AND/OR CALL 911 FOR ASSISTANCE YOU DO NOT HAVE LEGAL
REASON TO FIRE.

If you MUST defend yourself and/or others from physical harm, you are
legally allowed to do what is necessary to remove the current threat AND
NO MORE. Once you have rendered the person who has attacked you unable to
immediately continue his/her assault, you MUST cease your actions, and
should call 911 for assistance and for medical attention for your
attacker. Firing a few more shots "to make sure" is not legal, though you
may reasonably be expected to keep your weapon ready (but without having
your finger on the trigger) in case of further trouble, either from your
attacked or from someone else (keeping the pistol in your hand pointed in
a direction which does not directly threaten anyone, with your finger
resting on the outside of the trigger guard is sufficient).
Harvey R. Stone - 03 Apr 2005 04:13 GMT
>I defend what is mine (quite effectively) without firearms.

Ok, Bones,,,, You and I look at the world in a little different way.    I
have already told you that I am not going to flood this newsgroup with bad
mind pictures to support the way I think or what I do.   You seem to have to
do this.
My last post on this thread.
Harv
firechief - 03 Apr 2005 06:29 GMT
> A person calling you names is not sufficient reason! A person who is
> making verbal threats is not sufficient reason! (you should try to record
> these threats and give a copy of the recording to the police)

That, and what was above it, I will agree with.

> IF YOU, AND THOSE IN YOUR CARE, CAN SAFELY LEAVE THE
> VICINITY (WITHOUT BEING INJURED) AND/OR CALL 911 FOR
> ASSISTANCE YOU DO NOT HAVE LEGAL  REASON TO FIRE.

FALSE.

ABSOLUTELY FALSE.

TOTALLY FALSE

> If you MUST defend yourself and/or others from physical harm, you are
> legally allowed to do what is necessary to remove the current threat AND
> NO MORE.

I will argue this with you.  You  NEVER  have to back down.   NEVER!

... ERROR #00:   CPU too *tired* to continue.
Little Bit - 01 Apr 2005 01:06 GMT
I would probably shoot my foot off if i had a gun.Or they would take it
away from me
and shoot me.Now give me a baseball bat and i might have a chance.

Re: Don't mess with granny  

Group: alt.support.arthritis Date: Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 1:26pm (CST-2)
From: JAfirey@NETZERO.NET (Jo Firey)
"firechief" <firechief@jjfpd.gov> wrote in message
news:kZY2e.35933$AN1.20441@fed1read03...
Harv wrote:
One warning,,,,, shoot to kill.
Harv
That is what every firearms class teaches. I learned it in the military
and I learned it in the police academy.
You   NEVER   shoot to warn or disarm.
.. If things get worse, I'll have to ask you to stop helping me.
This is why we don't have guns in the house, though we both know how to
use them. When you add a gun to a situation it becomes more dangerous
for you as well as for them.
Jo
 
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