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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Arthritis / March 2005

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Definition: Surgical Success?

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Jim McGowan - 26 Feb 2005 06:10 GMT
Does anyone have a source that defines what "surgical success" really is?
Not success rates for specific operations or anything like that. Just what
the heck does surgical success mean?

I once read somewhere (possibly even here, some time ago!) that when
surgical success rates are quoted by surgeons, medical journals & articles,
etc., that if a surgeon accomplishes his or her objectives, Eg-remove X + Y
discs, fuse Z, or whatever they set out to do, and they accomplish exactly
that, that surgery is then defined as a "success" and calculated as such for
various studies, grading systems, and the like. Even if the intended end
result of the surgery is not reached. So when a surgeon, or a study
published in a medical journal indicates a success rate for that type of
surgery of 95%, or 80%, or whatever, that it really indicates the surgeon's
appraisal of whether or not he or she physically accomplished what was
planned, but does not at all take into account whether or not the surgical
patient shows significant improvement in whatever ailed he or she.

Does anyone know if this is fact or fiction? Or if there is a defintion of
such success rates published anywhere? As a real life example, I refused
LAUP and UUUP surgery for sleep apnea a few years back when I discovered
that the extremely low success rate of ~50% meant that at least some
post-surgical reduction in number of apneic events per hour was considered
"100% successful", even though the patient would have no relief and would
still require the same treatment as pre-surgery. So the 50% rate meant
simply that half would have a relatively meaningless reduction and the other
half would not - or would get worse!

My reasons for asking? After a somewhat successful lumbar spine discectomy &
laminectomy in 2000, which some of you may remember (two follow-up emergency
operations and a six month recovery). Now I'm going to be comsulting with a
neurosurgean soon for my cervical spine - spondylosis & foraminal stenosis
at multiple levels, five altogether, three severe. I've already decided I
will not get surgery unless I have absolutely no choice. Like I start to
experience signs of paraysis or something! Pain in left upper back, arm and
neck got bad enough 5 months ago that my PCP told me I'm done working till
he says otherwise, three epidurals didn't touch the pain, and I've gone from
Percoset to just two days ago applying my first fentanyl patch. I've been
placed on LTD, and now that my doc is out of answers he wants me to get a
second neurosurgical opinion. (First was w/the idiot from the lumbar op -
that visit didn't go real smooth; I don't like him!) I agreed to the
consult; UNUM will probably want to see this anyway. But I want to ask more
informed questions than I did 5 years ago. I know that with multilevel
issues, and at my age (50's), that potential for success is very much
lessened. So any info is greatly appreciated!
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Jo Firey - 26 Feb 2005 20:07 GMT
Not really an answer,  But I'm sure my surgeon considers my last surgery a
"success"    Ignoring the facts that my kidneys shut down, I was in ICU for
a week, in the hospital for ages, had a clot from a poorly maintained line
and back in the hospital for a week, another eight weeks before the incision
finished draining and a good six months before I really considered maybe I
still wanted to live.

But he made the repairs to my stomach and diaphragm that needed to be made,
and they have held for almost three years now.

Very close to the saying, "the surgery was a success, the patient died"

Jo
> Does anyone have a source that defines what "surgical success" really is?
> Not success rates for specific operations or anything like that. Just what
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> I know that with multilevel issues, and at my age (50's), that potential
> for success is very much lessened. So any info is greatly appreciated!
firechief - 27 Feb 2005 03:01 GMT
Jim McGowan wrote and asked:

> Does anyone have a source that defines what "surgical success" really is?
> Not success rates for specific operations or anything like that. Just what
> the heck does surgical success mean?

The patient doesn't die.

... "La Quinta"  is Spanish for "Next to Denny's."
diclidophora@yahoo.co.uk - 27 Feb 2005 15:22 GMT
My impression of surgeons is that they are rather single minded. Go to
consult about a hip (for e.g.) and they will tell you about the hip and
the thr, but not about your creaking knee, which they can hear, but
which you didn't mention. To them, a hip is a hip and a knee is a knee.

Hence the operation can be a success (to them), even if the patient
died, because they are concerned only with what the operation involved.
If you flaked out on the table thro some other unconnected cause, that
is your affair!
One hears about courageous surgeons. In my book it is the patients who
are courageous, not the surgeons

Physicians tend to take more of a whole body view I think.

Peter

> Jim McGowan wrote and asked:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> ... "La Quinta"  is Spanish for "Next to Denny's."
d'huit - 01 Mar 2005 17:37 GMT
i suspect that at least part of the answer to that question lies within the
realm of intention.   a successful surgery can be defined by technique and
lack of complications during surgery, because of good technical skill.  what
happens afterwards, however, sometimes is a crap shoot.

i think for most surgeons, success means more than technical skill, though,
and can be very individualized.  my hand surgeon had excellent technical
skill and expertise.  i know what made it a success for him, because he told
me so----for him it was the fact that he was able to give me back a lot of
that hand's function and reduced pain.  so, for him, the success of his
surgery went beyond the operating room and into the months ahead of
successful healing and my reclamation of function.

my leg surgeon, on the otherhand, literally behaved like i personally
sabotaged the success of his surgery on me, by my developing an infection
and requiring multiple other surgeries, because of various things that went
wrong afterwards.  in his case, i think his ego was sooo tied up in it, so
much so that that lack of success "had to be" my fault to him, rather than
the post-op crap shoot--the variables that cannot always be anticipated
and/or controlled.

kate

> Does anyone have a source that defines what "surgical success" really is?
> Not success rates for specific operations or anything like that. Just what
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> I know that with multilevel issues, and at my age (50's), that potential
> for success is very much lessened. So any info is greatly appreciated!
Jim McGowan - 02 Mar 2005 05:26 GMT
Thanks Kate.  My lumbar surgery sounds very much like your leg surgery.
Sorry to hear it went poorly, and I certainly hope that all is OK now.

I agree that each surgeon rates success subjectively.  However I am
wondering if there is a stated definition out there in the official medical
literature.

Thanks!

Signature

Jim McGowan
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"Spam protected" return address.
Retype address as it reads, replacing the CAPS:
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>i suspect that at least part of the answer to that question lies within the
>realm of intention.   a successful surgery can be defined by technique and
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
>> issues, and at my age (50's), that potential for success is very much
>> lessened. So any info is greatly appreciated!
 
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