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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Arthritis / December 2004

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ADA and churches

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firechief - 09 Dec 2004 01:06 GMT
Department of Justice
ADA Title III Regulation 28 CFR Part 36
ADA Standards for Accessible Design

 PART 36 -- NONDISCRIMINATION ON THE BASIS OF DISABILITY BY
 PUBLIC ACCOMMODATIONS AND IN COMMERCIAL FACILITIES

 Subpart A -- General

 Sec.36.102 Application.

 (e) Exemptions and exclusions. This part does not apply to any private
club
 (except to the extent that the facilities of the private club are made
 available to customers or patrons of a place of public accommodation), or
to
 any religious entity or public entity.

 Religious entity means a religious organization, including a place of
worship.

 "Religious entity.'' The term "religious entity'' is defined in accordance
 with section 307 of the ADA as a religious organization or entity
controlled
 by a religious organization, including a place of worship. Section
36.102(e)
 of the rule states that the rule does not apply to any religious entity.

 The ADA's exemption of religious organizations and religious entities
 controlled by religious organizations is very broad, encompassing a wide
 variety of situations. Religious organizations and entities controlled by
 religious organizations have no obligations under the ADA. Even when a
 religious organization carries out activities that would othervise make it
a
 public accommodation, the religious organization is exempt from ADA
 coverage.

 Thus, if a church itself operates a day care center, a nursing home, a
private
 school, or a diocesan school system, the operations of the center, home,
 school, or schools would not be subject to the requirements of the ADA or
this
 part. The religious entity would not lose its exemption merely because the
 services provided were open to the general public. The test is whether the
 church or other religious organization operates the public accommodation,
 not which individuals receive the public accommodation's services.

 Religious entities that are controlled by religious organizations are also
 exempt from the ADA's requirements. Many religious organizations in the
United
 States use lay boards and other secular or corporate mechanisms to operate
 schools and an array of social services. The use of a lay board or other
 mechanism does not itself remove the ADA's religious exemption. Thus, a
 parochial school, having religious doctrine in its curriculum and
sponsored by
 a religious order, could be exempt either as a religious organization or
as an
 entity controlled by a religious organization, even if it has a lay board.
The
 test remains a factual one -- whether the church or other religious
 organization controls the operations of the school or of the service or
 whether the school or service is itself a religious organization.

 Although a religious organization or a religious entity that is controlled
by
 a religious organization has no obligations under the rule, a public
 accommodation that is not itself a religious organization, but that
operates a
 place of public accommodation in leased space on the property of a
religious
 entity, which is not a place of worship, is subject to the rule's
requirements
 if it is not under control of a religious organization. When a church
rents
 meeting space, which is not a place of worship, to a local community group
or
 to a private, independent day care center, the ADA applies to the
activities
 of the local community group and day care center if a lease exists and
 consideration is paid.
Nann Bell - 09 Dec 2004 15:09 GMT
>   The ADA's exemption of religious organizations and religious entities
>   controlled by religious organizations is very broad, encompassing a wide
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> a public accommodation, the religious organization is exempt from ADA
>   coverage.

We faced this when we rebuilt our church in Gainesville after it was torched
in 1991.  There were a few in our congregation who were of the opinion that
we didn't need to make the new building accessible because we were exempt
from the ADA.  Fortunately, their numbers were quite small and overall the
new building was made quite accessible, including an elevator with braille
buttons in the education wing.  Most of us agreed that accessibility was the
Christian thing to do.  God never said take my message out into the world,
but only admit the fully mobile to your buildings!

I was still a tad unhappy because the altar itself is not fully accessible
and I had just read a column written by a priest who has to partly choose
which positions to pursue by the accessibility of the altar.  I wrote the
committee about htis though and I think the design allows for retrofitting
should they ever call a priest who doesn't walk.

One of our churches here is not *fully* accessible - it is a historic
building and major contruction and money would be required to provide access
to the basement.  But they have done things to make the building as
accessible as reasonably possible, despite rather limited funds.  I say good
for them.

Signature

Nann
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Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare

melodymom - 09 Dec 2004 21:19 GMT
My sister was church-shopping several years ago in her new town & went
through the phone book asking questions concerning a) doctrine, and b)
wheelchair access.  One church was getting gold stars on all the
doctrinal questions, and was quite pleased to inform her there was a
handicap stall in the ladies room - downstairs...  No, no elevator, but
a couple of ushers would be happy to carry her up and down...

Just thinking about being carried downstairs in a wheelchair made me
break out in a sweat.

luv&stuff,
Denise

>>  The ADA's exemption of religious organizations and religious entities
>>  controlled by religious organizations is very broad, encompassing a wide
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> accessible as reasonably possible, despite rather limited funds.  I say good
> for them.
Alice Faber - 09 Dec 2004 21:46 GMT
> My sister was church-shopping several years ago in her new town & went
> through the phone book asking questions concerning a) doctrine, and b)
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Just thinking about being carried downstairs in a wheelchair made me
> break out in a sweat.

Oh, man, especially when ya gotta go...

Signature

AF

Nann Bell - 10 Dec 2004 02:36 GMT
> My sister was church-shopping several years ago in her new town & went
> through the phone book asking questions concerning a) doctrine, and b)
> wheelchair access.  One church was getting gold stars on all the
> doctrinal questions, and was quite pleased to inform her there was a
> handicap stall in the ladies room - downstairs...  No, no elevator, but
> a couple of ushers would be happy to carry her up and down...

I can relate!  One of the churches Mike did field ed at was so wooried about
being politically correct and inclusive, except that didn't include the folks
who couldn't walk readily.  That was the same year my costochondritis kicked
off with chest pain from hell, to the point that I could barely whisper for 6
weeks and couldn't take a deep breath without doubling up in pain for about 3
months.  And the only toilet was downstairs - very steep stairs.  And they
had this procession around several rather hilly blocks for Palm Sunday - as I
sat in the building and stared at the walls awaiting their return.  They just
couldn't realize that "sit here and wait for us" was not reasonable
inclusion.  If that had been said to someone of a less common sexual
orientation, or someone of a different skin color, they would have been up in
arms.  But it didn't matter if the person just wasn't able to walk without
feet and ribcage screaming.  Hell, even the incense they used hurt my chest
so bad I had to leave the building for a while.  You might notice it ticked
me off a bit.......... :)  and this is 2.5 years after I was last there!

Signature

Nann
remove the Gator cheer to email me
Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare

melodymom - 10 Dec 2004 02:49 GMT
> I can relate!  One of the churches Mike did field ed at was so wooried about
> being politically correct and inclusive, except that didn't include the folks
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> so bad I had to leave the building for a while.  You might notice it ticked
> me off a bit.......... :)  and this is 2.5 years after I was last there!

Yeah, Nann, I do hear a bit of emotion coming through.  And don't blame
you one bit!  Especially since the incident you are relating is just one
of many random acts of insensitivity those of us with limitations
experience day in and day out.

Sometimes we just expect more, especially from churches.   And I don't
think it's wrong!

luv&stuff,
Denise
Squirrely - 11 Dec 2004 19:54 GMT
Boy, I stopped going to church because of not being able to sit in pews.

Don't believe it when the pastor says you can get up and walk around.  There
was one other gal there too that we just found out has fms too beside the
arthritis problems. She also had to do like me and get up and walk around
out in the lobby during the services. The pastor told both of us that it was
ok since we told him about the pain, and the numbness, tingling we deal
with. That was ok for about two weeks. Then he started saying during the
semons, about people needed to stay in their seats and not be going in and
out to the lobby. Well that did it for me. Unless I wanted to fall flat on
my face from useless legs when I got up, then I stopped going. People just
have no concept to what we need or go thru. It is something else.

I now worship at home. At least here I know God is ok with my not being able
to sit for long periods of time and that he is ok that I can't kneel down,
or put up arms around others shoulders. I am glad we are accepted by his
unconditional love.

Signature

Love and hugs to all
Good thoughts coming your way too.

Squirrely Jo

> > My sister was church-shopping several years ago in her new town & went
> > through the phone book asking questions concerning a) doctrine, and b)
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> so bad I had to leave the building for a while.  You might notice it ticked
> me off a bit.......... :)  and this is 2.5 years after I was last there!
firechief - 11 Dec 2004 20:52 GMT
> I now worship at home. At least here I know God is ok with my
> not being able to sit for long periods of time and that he is ok
> that I can't kneel down,

I do not kneel during services anymore.   Our prayer book
states (following the Creed) that we may remain standing
or kneel.

I stand at the communion rail to receive the host and the
wine from the chalice.

Because we are ushers, twice Mary and I get to walk during
the service - for the collection and at communion.  <g>

I've asked our pastor how people can praise and worship
while they're kneeling, heads bowed as though they were
in confession the entire time.  This should be a time of joy
and elation and I do not believe a person kneeling can feel
those emotions.

(The California missions were originally build without pews.
The congregation stood during the entire service, because
there were so many people, there wouldn't have been room
for all of them if there had been pews.)
Nann Bell - 11 Dec 2004 21:24 GMT
>  I've asked our pastor how people can praise and worship
>  while they're kneeling, heads bowed as though they were
>  in confession the entire time.  This should be a time of joy
>  and elation and I do not believe a person kneeling can feel
>  those emotions.

one can, though, feel peace and communion with God when kneeling.  And one
feels a quiet kind of joy rather than a leap into the air joy, though I no
longer can when kneeling due to pain.  I used to when knees and feet were all
ok. Back then I never realized how important the toes are for balancing when
kneeling!  Even when my knees can take it, my toes usually can't. Frankly,
the best for prayer for me is sitting.  My feet hurt too much with standing
in one place, especially on hard floors.  But I think each person should pray
in the posture that works best for that person.

Signature

Nann
remove the Gator cheer to email me
Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare

Squirrely - 12 Dec 2004 20:16 GMT
Oh the church did say it was ok for me to sit during our prayer meetings,
but then they frowned on it. Now if you got into a group of older people
then we were all sitting and we all in the group accepted it. But if you got
put in a group that had "normals" in it, that is when it was frowned on
because you were the only one sitting.

I can't stand long either.

I act like I got ants in my pants. Right now who knows I might have.
ROFLMAO.

I can only sit for small periods of time if I am not in my recliner. You saw
how I was when you were here and I was sitting in my recliner. I can't even
sit still then either. Either pain, numbness or tingling, keep me moving.
Almost like I am really hypo. Which I am but I can sit still if I am not in
pain, numbness or tingling.
I can't stand for long either. It just kills me if I have to stand in line
at a store. I do this little dance that looks like I have to go to the
bathroom quickly. But it is because of the hip pain. Can't keep weight long
on either hit although the left one is worse.

Even if we went downstairs in the church and sat in the chairs, I still had
a problem with them. Only thing that helps me be kind of ok is the recliner
type chairs. Churches, don't have them. ;-)
If they did everyone would fall asleep during the sermon. ;-)

Signature

Love and hugs to all
Good thoughts coming your way too.

Squirrely Jo

> > I now worship at home. At least here I know God is ok with my
> > not being able to sit for long periods of time and that he is ok
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>  there were so many people, there wouldn't have been room
>  for all of them if there had been pews.)
Nann Bell - 11 Dec 2004 21:19 GMT
The episcopal church, where I've been my entire life, used to have a rather
set order of kneel, stand and sit times.  Luckily the only longish sit time
was the sermon and in most churches that is no more than 10-15 minutes.  
(Mike aims to keep his at 8-10 minutes.  Research shows congregations quit
paying attention after about 12 minutes.)

Even though we changed positions more during othe course of our service than
most protestant denominations, these things have changed in recent years.  
Not everyone kneels to pray anymore, even when physically able.   It is now a
matter of whatever helps you communicate with God most readily - kneel, sit
or stand.  Some can't stand to sing the hymns (I don't like to be in front of
them - I don't want to block their view by standing!).  If you can't sit for
the sermon, try to sit on an aisle, then either stand off to the side so you
don't become a focal point, or move to the back or something similar.  It is
truly a shame that you weren't free to do that in the church you were
attending.  

I have ongoing issues with our church's exchanging the peace period.  Most
folks shake hands for this.  I keep acquiring more different ways of touching
hands so they can't grip mine!  Over time, people at every new church adjust
and no long expect a firm handshake from me.

Oh, and as I ramble on about those things, let me also agree with you that
you can worship effectively at home.  God IS omnipresent and meets us where
WE are - both physicaly and mentally.  It is helpful when you have a
supportive congregation to help you in your faith, but it is not absolutely
necessary.

You know, the first (horrid) years of really active arthritis, I used to lie
in bed and feel God's arms around me to encourage me to keep going.  One
reason I wanted to marry Mike was that his hugs felt so very much like those
times when Icould feel God holding me.

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Nann
remove the Gator cheer to email me
Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare

> Boy, I stopped going to church because of not being able to sit in pews.
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> or put up arms around others shoulders. I am glad we are accepted by his
> unconditional love.
Gwen Love - 12 Dec 2004 01:28 GMT
Nann, your experience of feeling God's arm holding you reminds me of my own.
Particularly while we were going through Grayson's alzheimers and I was
wondering about the future, when we went to bed and I started my prayers, I
really felt that God was holding me in his arms.  It was so warm and
peaceful, and I knew that whatever the future held, my God would still be
there holding and comforting me.  Nothing can describe that feeling to
others; you really have to experience it.
Gwen

> The episcopal church, where I've been my entire life, used to have a rather
> set order of kneel, stand and sit times.  Luckily the only longish sit time
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> > or put up arms around others shoulders. I am glad we are accepted by his
> > unconditional love.
Squirrely - 12 Dec 2004 20:25 GMT
Oh whoa, I would like to come to your church. Our pastors sermons were an
hour long. Sometimes they were ok if he was talking about something
interesting like the end times and such. But boy some of them felt like he
was talking for hours on end. ;-)

They would get upset with me at times because they would stand  up and then
everyone was suppose to put their hands on the next persons shoulders and we
joined a circle like that. Boy if you have shoulder problems that is not the
thing to do. I would start  hurting right away. Sometimes, Jim would have to
help me get my arms back down because my shoulders would lock up. But it was
not acceptable not to join in.

I am sorry I am still upset at that church. I used to go over there and do
the tape ministry. I would fold the bulletins, went to bible studies and
helped out there, helped out wherever I could. Then when I got so bad I
couldn't do that stuff and sit in the pews without getting up every 20-30
minutes. It was like I wasn't a member there anymore. I used to do the
prayer chain. I would call if someone was missing from church.

Not a person called me when I started missing out, or couldn't be there at
all. That is when I decided this was not the church for me.
I would not go thru that much pain for people that didn't follow what it
said to do in the bible. There was more issues with them then this, like
them not helping the widows etc.

Oh Nann, now the shaking hands, it is not because of my arthritis, but
because of spreading illnesses that way that I have a problem with now. I am
afraid to shake hands,  hugs, etc because everytime I do I get sick. But
that is another story all together. ;-)

I do miss out on doing bible study with someone. I need to get in touch with
churches here and see if they have bible studies for the shut ins. I would
love to do something like that.

Signature

Love and hugs to all
Good thoughts coming your way too.

Squirrely Jo

> The episcopal church, where I've been my entire life, used to have a rather
> set order of kneel, stand and sit times.  Luckily the only longish sit time
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> > or put up arms around others shoulders. I am glad we are accepted by his
> > unconditional love.
Joan Carter - 12 Dec 2004 21:22 GMT
>Not a person called me when I started missing out, or couldn't be there at
>all. That is when I decided this was not the church for me.
>I would not go thru that much pain for people that didn't follow what it
>said to do in the bible. There was more issues with them then this, like
>them not helping the widows etc.

It doesn't sound like my understanding of Christianity, or even of human
kindness. No matter what one's religion, or lack of it, you would think the milk
of human kindness might, just might, shine through. I still haven't given up on
people although sometimes I do wonder just a bit. :-)

---
Joan
Squirrely - 15 Dec 2004 04:04 GMT
Joan,

well I guess I have not been very christain either in complaining about
them. ;-)

i remember the part in the bible that says let those that have no sin cast
the first stone. I blew it again. ;-)

I have not given up on people either. Thee are some out there, although I
think they are mostly on this group, that still show the christain way.

Signature

Love and hugs to all
Good thoughts coming your way too.

Squirrely Jo

> It doesn't sound like my understanding of Christianity, or even of human
> kindness. No matter what one's religion, or lack of it, you would think the milk
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> ---
> Joan
Harvey R. Stone - 13 Dec 2004 04:22 GMT
> Oh whoa, I would like to come to your church. Our pastors sermons were an
> hour long. Sometimes they were ok if he was talking about something
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> Squirrely Jo

It is their loss Jo.    Who knows, maybe they will learn from their faults
and learn from what took place.   I would have a sit down with an elder or
two maybe even with the preacher there too.   Sometimes people will not see
what is obvious to others and need to be shown.   Something good could come
out of it.
    I have in my life found that a happy church member is a blessing to
everyone around that member and on the other hand there are people that will
actually look for a reason to reject a church or group of people.
Harv
Squirrely - 15 Dec 2004 18:59 GMT
Yeah I should have sat down with them. I could have maybe made a change in
their thinking. ;-)

Signature

Love and hugs to all
Good thoughts coming your way too.

Squirrely Jo

> It is their loss Jo.    Who knows, maybe they will learn from their faults
> and learn from what took place.   I would have a sit down with an elder or
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> actually look for a reason to reject a church or group of people.
> Harv
Bruce - 15 Dec 2004 01:41 GMT
My first response would be to ask WWJD(What Would Jesus DO)? Certainly not
what the pastor did.  If the then said a church body or council said this is
how it was to be I'd quickly remind him that no church body died for me and
none would set the terms of my salvation, so mind your business and preach.
Bruce
> Boy, I stopped going to church because of not being able to sit in pews.
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> or put up arms around others shoulders. I am glad we are accepted by his
> unconditional love.
 
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