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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Arthritis / January 2005

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hip update & bone question

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Kandi - 05 Dec 2004 22:12 GMT
i haven't been on line a lot lately so i haven't been here much, but
when i am on line, i have been lurking.
hip is still painful (after over a year) - stairs are horribly painful &
if i have to carry anything - forget it...(two flights of stairs at home
with no elevator) - but for those of  you who remember, i no longer have
3 flights of stairs at work - the company moved to a one story building
and i am THRILLED about that... - but any way - i saw the ortho doc on
friday - and he says (or more, the xrays say) the fracture is not
healing - about 1/2 of it has, but the other half has not. other than
the long term steroid use (15+years) he can't think of any reason it is
not healing - even with the steroid use, it should have healed after
over a year....we are going to try a bone stimulator - he admits it may
not help because of where the fracture is located, but is willing to try
it because it is not healing on its own...i am still taking vicoden, but
i can't take it when i am at work - so motrin 800's at work....but
neither really get rid of the pain all together - he tells me the
weather is obviously affecting me too..other than moving (not an option)
there is not much i can do about that.....the comp case drags - the doc
sent the letter that was supposed to go to the lawyer to the insurance
company and i did not figure that one out until i saw him on friday -
but of course the doc didn't put the "percentage loss of use" on the
form, so i have to get that added - more hoops to jump thru - although
he verbally told me 50 % loss of use of the hip - that is a pretty high
number, isn't it?? he also told me to use the cane thru the winter -
both for reducing the pressure on my hip & for safety reasons - not sure
how safe i will be - i have enough trouble walking on my own (that is
how i got into this mess to begin with) and now he wants me to carry
something??? :)  
have any of you used a bone stimulator??? i only asked a few questions
because i was so upset at the office - i am waiting for the "bone
stimulator guy" to call me to set up an appt..it sounds painful, but the
doc assures me it is not.....i get the gist of it, but am concerned
about where the fracture is - how is it actually going to help me???
i honestly don't know how much more of this pain i can take. along with
the rest of the crap going on in my personal life, i just feel sometimes
like walls are closing in on me....the whole comp case thing is driving
me crazy, i don't know how to do this & that - didn't know i had to get
pre-approval for my CT scan - so they are billing me demanding money i
just don't have - i haven't been able to get my humira in about 6 months
now - so i haven't been able to taper the steroids - which has been
affecting my sugar level - i am also a diabetic - so i feel like there
is a vicious cycle going here  & i can't stop it....

any way - enough whining, sorry - but i am wondering about the bone
stimulator - can any of you tell me more about it???

kandi


Smokie Darling (Annie) - 05 Dec 2004 22:41 GMT
Hi Kandi,

I have never used a bone stimulator (never broke anything - touch
wood), so I checked a quick search.  I did find this:

****A bone stimulator is a small box, about the size of a package of
cigarettes. It is usually worn at the waist. It has two wires leading
from, which run down inside the pants leg. A sticky pad is applied to
the skin above and below the fracture site and the wires are attached
to the sticky pads.

There is no sensation of any sort. The EBI bone stimulator sets up an
electrical field about the fracture site. It does not vibrate or cause
any electrical sensation. ****

Keep in mind, this was from an unmoderated board, and the poster signs
off as Dr. B...

Here's hoping that you find better information from someone else here
(they are much wiser than I).  I will keep you in my thoughts and
prayers.

Smokie Darling (Annie)
firechief - 06 Dec 2004 00:22 GMT
Annie wrote:

> I have never used a bone stimulator (never broke anything - touch
> wood), so I checked a quick search.  I did find this:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> the skin above and below the fracture site and the wires are attached
> to the sticky pads.

Things of this nature require FDA approval and doctor's Rx.

> Keep in mind, this was from an unmoderated board, and the poster
> signs off as Dr. B...

Must be Dr. Bombay from "Bewitched."
Smokie Darling (Annie) - 06 Dec 2004 00:40 GMT
Firechief,

Does that mean that Kandi's doctor can't prescribe it, or does the FDA
have to approve every Rx?  I'm just confused (which I'm sure you'll
notice is a continuing thing with me).

Smokie Darling (Annie)
firechief - 06 Dec 2004 01:01 GMT
Annie wrote:

> Does that mean that Kandi's doctor can't prescribe it, or does
> the FDA have to approve every Rx?  I'm just confused (which I'm
> sure you'll notice is a continuing thing with me).

Except for herbals/vitamins, the FDA has to approve everything
that goes into or on our bodies.  This applies to everything that
did not exist at the time the FDA was created (aspirin, corn,
peas, meats, even water - though the EPA does that).

Even consmetics -- lipstick, eyebrow liner, etc., must be tested
and approved.  You'll notice on many packages the statement
in the list of ingredients "FDA Yellow #something" or "FDA Red
#something else.)

And that is why the FDA would have to approve GE foods before
they could be sold in the USA.  Explains why there was a recall
of Taco Bell brand taco shells from Kraft.  Some eco-freak group
discovered they were made with GE corn from Mexico.

Most work of the FDA I appreciate, but when a bag of peanuts
has to contain the notice "PROCESSED IN A PLANT THAT
PROCESSES PEANUTS," that is really carrying it too far.

Now if a drug or device is approved for a specific purpose,
a doctor can prescribe it "off-label" for another reason/use.
However, the drug's or device's manufacture cannot toot its
horn and advertise or say to doctors, "this also works for
disease xyz."

That is one reason some drug companies are being dragged
over the coals at this moment.  Their reps go to doctor's office
with free samples and proclaim how xyz, an FDA-approved drug
for heart problems, also works good for ingrown toenail/arthritis/
cancer/you-name-it.

Some companies are being questioned re: their ads for some
arthritis drugs (and Viagra).
Joan Carter - 06 Dec 2004 03:18 GMT
> Must be Dr. Bombay from "Bewitched."

ROFL. I hadn't heard that name for years, Firechief. Thanks for a trip down
memory lane. :-)
---
Joan
debbie m. - 05 Dec 2004 23:24 GMT
Kandi,

Why don't they consider hip replacement?  I don't know why they didn't do
something different from the very beginning.  They operated on my dad the
very night he broke his hip and two years later he had to have it replaced.
I just don't understand how they can watch you suffer.

I think if you are even paying a little bit, even $5 a month I don't know
what they can do.  I'm so sorry things have been so rough for you.  I've
been keeping up with you from the time you broke your hip.  I wish you had
better news and I hope the new year will be a better one for you.

debbie m.
http://www.angelfire.com/ga2/angels1/

> i haven't been on line a lot lately so i haven't been here much, but
> when i am on line, i have been lurking.
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
> kandi
Kandi - 06 Dec 2004 00:53 GMT
i was not a candidate for hip surgery at the time of the accident
because it took 11 days before the fracture was found. i actually walked
around on it for 11 days...looking back, i am not sure how i did
it...but apparently it started to heal & since i was walking they opted
against any kind of surgery.
now, the doc says i am just not a good candidate for surgery with my
other complications (diabetes & prednisone use) it would be a very
difficult healing process - but i got the distinct impression that
surgery could be a last resort - if it doesnt heal itself with the bone
stimulator and more time....but - how much pain do i endure??? i have
trusted this doc since day one - if he says more time, then
unfortunately, i just have to give it more time. it is not often i can
say that i trust in someone 100 %, but in this case i do - he is willing
to give me what ever i need to be comfortable - until such time as the
bone heals itself...i don't like it, but the thought of a surgery scares
me to death....
i guess i am scared no matter what i do - if i just wait it out, how
much pain will i be in?? if i have surgery, how much pain will i be
in???...i am just scared either way....it scares me that i may have to
deal with this the rest of my life....i feel like i have no way to
turn...no options left....
i just have to "deal with it"?????

kandi


d'huit - 06 Dec 2004 08:37 GMT
>i was not a candidate for hip surgery at the time of the accident
> because it took 11 days before the fracture was found. i actually walked
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> kandi

((((((((((((((kandi)))))))))))  you ARE going to heal, hon, though maybe not
as quickly as you hope to.   you DO have options, kandi.

i find it very strange, the way your situation has been handled by your
ortho and your lawyer, because my experience was so different.  my hip was
pinned and my girlfriend (who had been in a different wreck, around the same
time) was in a spika cast for hers, which, btw, i wouldn't wish on anybody.

surgery is indicated, when surgery is indicated, depending upon the ortho.
i  they operate on diabetics all the time, kandi.  i think your ortho is
just hoping you will knit before he deems it necessary.  i have to ask
you---is your doctor an orthopod, or an orthopaedic surgeon?  an orthopod,
who is not a surgeon, might tend to delay surgery as long as possible.

i'm thinking that if some new form of imobilization is not an option, and
surgery is not an option for you, then you should, at the very least, be
referred, by your ortho, to a pain management clinic to help you cope with
all this pain.  and it should be included/covered in/by your third party
liability claim, as should that ct scan.

your lawyer should be handling all the medical expenses of your case, for
you, kandi.   you shouldn't have to deal with them at all.  that's why you
hired him, to handle all this stuff for you.   what i'm saying is that your
attorney should be doing more than he appears to be doing for you, hon.

those medical bills get "paid out of the settlement".  send your lawyer that
damn ct scan bill, and let him handle it.  then, if you get billed again,
refer them to your lawyer and let him deal with them and explain what's
going on.   didn't i mention this before to you?  (i feel like i'm having
deja vu, here)  and if i didn't mention it, i am soooo sorry that i
neglected to do that for you, hon.

kate
Kandi - 06 Dec 2004 23:35 GMT
i did talk with the lawyer & he says not to worry about the ct bill -
will add it to the settlement - notified the doc's office about the
letter he needs to send to the lawyer - so it is just a matter of time -
time i just don't have - i was on the brink of bankruptcy - but stopped
it because i can't afford it - ironic, huh?? but i want to pay the few
creditors i do have and a settlement would come in very handy - just
stressed about the whole bankruptcy/comp thing - that they were
happening at the same time....cant handle much more stress...especially
at the holidays - (i have a hard time with  holidays)  & have been
stressed about that too!!!

i cant thank this group enough for thinking about me & supporting me -
for those of you who remember, most of my family is not very supportive
- so this group has been my sole support for a while now...thank you for
the kind words & advice - i will try to keep up around here...:)
kandi


Nann Bell - 07 Dec 2004 22:01 GMT
((((((((((kandi))))))))))  I wish I had some good advice about how to resolve
all of this, but you area already doing everything I can think of.  So, I'll
send you hugs and send out some prayers that everything get resolved so that
you have the deserved settlement and your hip heals.  Maybe the stimulator
will be just the extra "oomph" needed for healing.

Signature

Nann
remove the Gator cheer to email me
Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare

Kandi - 06 Dec 2004 23:42 GMT
to be 100 % honest i am not sure if he is a orthopod or an orthopedic
surgeon - when he refered me to the trauma specialist to determine if
surgery was indicated, he told me he hasnt done my type of surgery in
years......does that mean he is an orthopod???? 
geesh, i guess this is information i should know....


Gwen Love - 05 Dec 2004 23:53 GMT
Kandi, I don't have any info about the stimulator, but having gone through
the pain before my THR I can sympathize with the continuing pain you are
having.  I do pary you can get some relief very soon.
Gwen

> i haven't been on line a lot lately so i haven't been here much, but
> when i am on line, i have been lurking.
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
> kandi
spodosaurus - 06 Dec 2004 01:07 GMT
Hi Kandi,

I'm wondering if it's possible for you to have a bone scan (cheaper than
an MRI) to exclude osteonecrosis as the reason the fracture hasn't fully
healed?

Ari

Signature

spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. To jump to the end
of the story, as a result of this I need a bone marrow transplant. Many
people around the world are waiting for a marrow transplant, too. Please
volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

d'huit - 06 Dec 2004 07:44 GMT
> Hi Kandi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Ari

i was thinking the very same thing, ari.

kate
Kandi - 06 Dec 2004 23:39 GMT
is a bone scan the same as a dexa scan??? i recently had a dexa scan
done - and it said i have a high fracture risk for my right hip (duh!!!)
and my neck - now that is scary...i had the CT scan - that would not
show osteonecrosis???

i will ask my doc about the osteonecrosis....he has never mentioned
it...
i had a horrible incident with an MRI - and i will never have one again
- even if it is an open one.....

kandi


spodosaurus - 07 Dec 2004 06:15 GMT
> is a bone scan the same as a dexa scan???

No. A bone scan uses a radio-isotope to measure measure metabolic
activity involved in bone repair and inflamation. With osteonecrosis,
there will be black spots on the scan where the bone is dead. A dexa
scan measures bone mineral density only.

 i recently had a dexa scan
> done - and it said i have a high fracture risk for my right hip (duh!!!)
> and my neck - now that is scary...i had the CT scan - that would not
> show osteonecrosis???

No it wouldn't. Only a bone scan or an MRI would show osteonecrosis
(also known as avascular necrosis). Even after the cheaper bone scan,
and MRI is often done to confirm the diagnosis, as a form of severe
osteoporosis looks virtually the same as osteonecrosis on a bone scan.

> i will ask my doc about the osteonecrosis....he has never mentioned
> it...
> i had a horrible incident with an MRI - and i will never have one again
> - even if it is an open one.....

Unfortunately you may have to have an MRI as the treatment, where
possible, is different for the two disorders that look the same on a
bone scan.

Signature

spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. To jump to the end
of the story, as a result of this I need a bone marrow transplant. Many
people around the world are waiting for a marrow transplant, too. Please
volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

Alex Barna - 06 Dec 2004 16:50 GMT
Hi Kandi,

> have any of you used a bone stimulator??? i only asked a few questions
> because i was so upset at the office - i am waiting for the "bone
> stimulator guy" to call me to set up an appt..it sounds painful, but the
> doc assures me it is not.....i get the gist of it, but am concerned
> about where the fracture is - how is it actually going to help me???

My son had electro bone growth stimulation when he blew out both his hips while
running in high school track. They pinned his hips back together then applied
the stimulation to aid in healing. He remembers it felt like just a little
tingle in his hips.

Electrical bone growth stimulation has been used & approved by the FDA for
years. It is an entirely painless way to stimulate slow healing bone to grow by
producing a small electrical field around the injured area.

> any way - enough whining, sorry - but i am wondering about the bone
> stimulator - can any of you tell me more about it???

I can tell you that it is a device used in sports medicine to help athletes to
heal faster from bone injuries.

> kandi

Sending Good Thoughts,
{{{Kandi}}}

GramPaHugs,
Alex,

--

Any information is included for informational
or entertainment purposes only, is based on my
personal experiences & is an expression of my opinion.
No endorsement is implied or intended.
 
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Squirrely - 06 Dec 2004 20:04 GMT
Kandi,

I don't have any answers for you but wanted you to know I am thinking of you
and have been. I was wondering what was going on with you.

I am glad you did make it back here and share with us so that we know how to
direct our prayers and thoughts to you.

Wishing you the best outcome with this. I hope the stimilator will be the
answer and that your pain will cease.

Signature

Love and hugs to all
Good thoughts coming your way too.

Squirrely Jo

> i haven't been on line a lot lately so i haven't been here much, but
> when i am on line, i have been lurking.
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
> kandi
yjacket - 20 Jan 2005 20:17 GMT
Kandi,

I have used an EBI Bone Growth Stimulator system. I will give you the
facts of my injury, my initial prognosis, and the eventual outcome.
Details of the EBI system will be included.

Basically, I fell approximately 40 feet while doing something dumb. My
daughter and I were cleaning up at the gymnastics facility where she
practices/competes when she asked me if I could 'climb the rope and
ring the bell at the top'. The rope is obviously there as a
conditioning tool for the gymnasts and it hangs slightly above a ten
foot deep landing area (pit) that is filled to the top with foam. The
pit is basically square with 15 foot sides and is primarily used by the
gymnasts to safely land new/difficult moves until they are confident
and comfortable trying it on the 'real' landing areas. To make a long
story short, I climbed the rope fairly quickly and rang the bell.
Then...I looked down! All I could think about was how bad the blisters
would be on my hand's from sliding down the rope. After a minute or so
my daughter said 'just let go and fall into the pit...the girls do it
all of the time'. So...without giving her suggestion too much thought I
let go. The fall was much quicker than I was prepared for and I
basically hit the pit straight as a pencil. Being the bullet I turned
myself into, I was not even slowed down by the foam and hit with my
right foot...which quickly rolled to the outside. Since I was
unemployed at the time and had no insurance, my daughter (10 yrs old at
the time) said 'we'd better not tell mommy what really happened' since
we were struggling a bit financially. So we told her a little white
lie, saying that I rolled/sprained my ankle while stepping into the
soft 'resi' mat. For all I knew, the injury was just that...a severely
sprained ankle...especially since I (somehow) was able to limp my way
out of the gym.

X-rays the following day did not show anything broken ( the reason
being, the bone that was broken was my talus bone-which sits in the
middle of the ankle - hidden in this case by the inside and outside
bones [tibia/fibula] when taking side view x-ray's). Since it was
literally broken right down the middle vertically, a front view x-ray
did not show the break. The doctors treated it as a severe sprain, and
knowing I had no health insurance, they did not feel it was necessary
to schedule an MRI. As time went by I began trying to rehabilitate the
ankle via intense physical therapy...and it did nothing but
hurt...immensely!!

I found some consulting work as a Project Mgr at a Nuclear Plant in
Missouri (3 months) and Vermont (3 months). Let me tell you, when you
work in a nuc plant, you do a 'LOT' of walking, climbing, etc... I
assumed the constant popping sound my ankle was making was caused by
ligaments, that were still loose in the ankle, sliding over the bone.
Twenty steps at a time was about all I could take prior to stopping in
severe pain, resting for a bit, and then continuing on.

Following those six months of work, and still having major issues with
the ankle pain, I had accumulated enough cash to get an MRI done to
take a closer look. The MRI was as clear as day. The Talus bone was
fractured down the middle (again vertically) and slightly displaced
from all of the walking I did. Additionally, the bone obviously
attempted to heal numerous times over the previous six months...you
could actually see the calcium growth in several places on the broken
portion of the bone. All of the popping sounds I was hearing while
walking on the ankle was not caused by loose ligaments...it was the
bone re-breaking, over and over, after it would 'attempt' to heal.
Unfortunately, I am now a case study for conferences and included in
some sort of teaching manual for orthopedic ankle specialists.
Basically, the doctors could not believe that I actually walked with
this fracture for six months, and that although the broken bone was
slightly displaced, it was still in a position that gave them options
to possibly fix the break. After the team of Doctors consulted with
ankle specialists throughout the U.S., the decision was made to place
two screws into the talus bone pieces and pull them together to ensure
alignment. The prognosis they provided, however, was not too great.
Since the inside of both pieces of bone had calcified over numerous
times while it was trying to heal on it's own, the likelyhood of the
bones fusing after the surgery was very low. Additionally, the talus
bone is notorious for having a small blood supply that actually enters
from the bottom of the bone. It's common for the blood supply to be cut
off from the bone completely...or for the supply not to cross over the
healed union to the rest of the bone. In either case, the loss of blood
supply eventually causes the bone to 'die' and eventually collapse.
Ankle fusion is often performed at this time with some type of
'replacement' bone graft - or 'artificial' joint that freezes the ankle
movement in several ways. I was told that I would likely require a cane
to get around once the surgery had healed and to be prepared for
chronic pain - also to accept the reality that the bone may eventually
collapse and require fusion.

The surgery was performed and I was placed in a cast that came up to my
knee. I had very strict instructions from the Dr. to 'not' touch the
cast on the ground or push off of anything with my right leg/ankle for
12 weeks. I followed his instructions and, while speaking to a
Physicians Assistant in Pennsylvania (Bob - best friend - worked for a
sports orthopedic firm)...Bob asked me if the doctors had prescribed an
EBI Bone Growth Stimulator for me to use. I had no clue what he was
referring to, but he said the the EBI rep in his area 'owed him a
favor' and that he could likely get me hooked up with a unit. At the
time, a majority of insurance agencies were not considering the use of
this device as a cost effective means for it's purpose and had doubts
about its abilities. Therefore, if a patient (or Dr.) wanted to utilize
the the device...it had to come out of their own pockets (and it is/was
pretty expensive). Bob came through with his promise and had his rep
call the local rep where I am located and I was able to get an EBI BS
within a few days. My Doctors were pleased that I would be using the
device...indicating that since insurance does not cover the devices,
they are usually beyond the means of most patients and are generally
not considered.

The device basically has an bendable oval shaped ring, roughly an inch
wide and covered with fabric (comfortable enough to wear directly on
your skin) that conforms to the area you need to be 'stimulated' and
straps with velcro to hold it in place. This 'ring' is attached to a
controller unit that is battery operated. The battery/controller comes
with a 120V charger. The unit also comes with a pouch that attaches to
a provided belt and/or comes with a belt clip. The size of the
controller is roughly 1.5 inches thick, 3 inches wide, and 4.5 inches
tall. It's very easy to use...especially since an EBI rep typically
delivers the unit and explains everything. I wore the device a minimum
of 8 hours/day (I believe) ...the more the better (again, I'm sure the
more hours the better...but it may be to a maximum of 10hrs/day).
Basically, the controller unit sends out an electromagnetic field that
produces a small electrical current, very similar to what the body does
naturally to signal the bone to begin healing in the first few weeks
after a fracture. As far as I can recall, there is nothing to feel
while the unit is running...even if there was any amount of vibration
it was not something that I recall. I wore the unit over my cast for 12
weeks (the signal easily penetrates the cast) and then directly on the
ankle when I began rehab. One more item of note...you can wear it such
that it is not real visible. For a hip, depending on the location of
the break, I'd imagine you'd have to wear pants that provided a little
extra room in the waist to thigh area (sweat pants, baggy pants - if
you're into that style,...) if you wanted to conceal the coil ring
inside your clothes. However, the coil ring will easily send it's
signal through your clothes if worn on the outside. One last item to
help you understand how the stimulator works - at least this is the way
it was explained to me:

The small electrical current that reaches the bone emulates the signal
your body naturally produces during the first few weeks after a
fracture occurs and begins the healing process. From what I understand,
this small current actually creates very small micro-tears on the bone
that actually force the body's natural reaction to send in the troops
to heal the bone.This process continues while using the stimulator and
aids the fusion of the fractured bone.

Ok, now a bit more about the outcome of my ankle. After removing the
cast @ 12 weeks, an x-ray was taken (at the proper angle to see the
talus bone...I might add) and the Doctors were absolutely shocked. The
bone had completely healed and the two screws did not move at all (in
other words, the bone did not shift any during healing - which would
have created a major issue since this bone 'is' the inner joint of the
ankle and it's spacing in respect to the other bones in the ankle is
critical). The bone also, quite clearly, had retained the blood supply
and it provided blood to 'both' sides of the bone - through the
fracture site.

That's all I'll share here...because the story actually continues on
with miraculous success, unprecedented healing for that type of Talus
injury, and...instead of walking with continuous joint pain and a
cane...I can actually play tennis and have no limitations. I believe,
beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the bone stimulator significantly
helped the fracture heal (along with a certain SOMEBODY from above).

Oh, by the way, my daughter and I came clean to my wife on what really
happened a few weeks after feeling horrible about our little white lie.
My wife understood.

Hope this helps...and sorry it's so long!!!
debbie m. - 22 Jan 2005 14:28 GMT
what a wonderful story!

debbie m.
http://www.angelfire.com/ga2/angels1/

> Kandi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 161 lines]
>
> Hope this helps...and sorry it's so long!!!
 
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