Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Arthritis / December 2004
(from AMF) Pain linked to permanent brain loss
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Nann Bell - 28 Nov 2004 12:53 GMT copied from alt.med.fibromyalgia
BBC Report: Pain Linked To Permanent Brain Loss
Chronic pain may permanently shrink the brain, US researchers believe.
The Northwestern University team had previously shown patients with back pain had decreased activity in the same brain region called the thalamus.
This area is known to be important in decision-making and social behaviour.
The team's current study in the Journal of Neuroscience suggests some of the changes may be irreversible and render pain treatment ineffective. More research is needed, they say.
Shrinkage
If true, it makes it all the more important to treat pain early to prevent any permanent change, say Dr Vania Apkarian and colleagues.
They scanned the brains of 26 patients with chronic back pain and 26 healthy people.
The patients with chronic pain caused by damage to the nervous system showed shrinks in the brain by as much as 11% - equivalent to the amount of gray matter that is lost in 10-20 years of normal aging.
It does correspond with what other people have found. Dr Nigel Lawes, senior lecturer in biomedical science at St Georges Medical School
The decrease in volume, in the prefrontal cortex and the thalamus of the brain, was related to the duration of pain.
Every year of pain appeared to decrease gray matter by 1.3 cubic centimetres.
What the researchers now need to find out is whether this loss is permanent or whether it can be reversed with treatment.
Dr Apkarian said: "It is possible that some of the observed decreased gray matter shown in this study reflects tissue shrinkage without substantial neuronal loss, suggesting that proper treatment would reverse this portion of the decreased brain matter."
Permanent loss?
But Dr Apkarian said other research in rats had shown that spinal cord neurons die, which suggests the brain changes could be irreversible.
Dr Nigel Lawes, senior lecturer in biomedical science at St Georges Medical School, London, said: "This is a very interesting study.
"Other imaging studies have shown in chronic pain conditions these areas of the brain are less active, so it does correspond with what other people have found."
He said the brain areas involved, which control decision making such as how to consciously move the body, might be important.
He said people with chronic back pain tended to move in automatic ways that perpetuate the pain.
Therapies to teach people how to pay attention to and control their movement to limit this pain might help, he said.
"Studies could look at whether any of these therapies improve the way they cope with their pain, do you reverse the underactivity in that part of the brain and, after you have reversed it for long enough, will that then change the brain volume?
"It might well be that it is reversible, but that depends on whether they get the right treatment or not."
Story from BBC NEWS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/health/4031825.stm Published: 2004/11/23 08:01:01 GMT
© BBC MMIV
 Signature Nann remove the Gator cheer to email me Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare
Harvey R. Stone - 28 Nov 2004 13:56 GMT Thank you Nann... That is an amazing report and it does give me an excuse for a great deal of loss in my mental function but then,,, like my wife might say,,,,, you have to have it before you can loose it. :-) Harv
> copied from alt.med.fibromyalgia > [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > > ? BBC MMIV d'huit - 28 Nov 2004 17:37 GMT sigh . . . is that where my brain's functional consistency went. so, then this could also mean that the fear of "losing their minds" that many people (who have painful chronic illness or long term terminal illness) express is intuitive on their parts. interesting and thought provoking---amazing how much the mind knows, that the conscious mind doesn't know it knows. isn't it? kate
> copied from alt.med.fibromyalgia > [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > > ? BBC MMIV Nann Bell - 28 Nov 2004 18:06 GMT > sigh . . . is that where my brain's functional consistency went. so, then > this could also mean that the fear of "losing their minds" that many people [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > it? > kate well, you certainly DO feel as if you're losing your mind when you are trying to function through pain. In fact, kate, it was you talking about trying to function through all the horrific pain and numbness you are having from your spinal problems that made me realize this needed to be posted here as not everyone here is also on AMF. You see, there is good reason for you to be having difficulty keeping track of everything - and that is a very good reason to get this treated!
 Signature Nann remove the Gator cheer to email me Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare
d'huit - 28 Nov 2004 18:22 GMT >> sigh . . . is that where my brain's functional consistency went. so, >> then [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > having difficulty keeping track of everything - and that is a very good > reason to get this treated! yes. it does sound like i should quit accepting this being put on the back burner. i wonder if most doctors know this pain/mind relationship. this looks like a fairly recent report. maybe we should all print this up and take it to our doctors to read?
kate
> remove the Gator cheer to email me > Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare Jo Firey - 28 Nov 2004 21:19 GMT >>> sigh . . . is that where my brain's functional consistency went. so, >>> then [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > kate I'm afraid it is all too natural for a doctor to look at a patient today and to think this is who they are. Not to realize how much of their apparent intellectual ability, perception, co-ordination, etc is normal and how much is a function of problems that can and should be corrected.
Example, if a doctor has only seen you when you are ill, does he/she even know who you are?
Jo
(And yes there was a time when I could express myself mush better than this)
d'huit - 28 Nov 2004 23:08 GMT >>>> sigh . . . is that where my brain's functional consistency went. so, >>>> then [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > (And yes there was a time when I could express myself mush better than > this) LOL. and my ability to express myself has become so ephemeral that when it happens, even i don't recognize me.<g>
you make valid points that doctors should consider, jo. (it is even valid to ask if what we see of each other, day in and day out, in ng text, is a true representation of the whole person. and of course, it cannot always be the case.)
i believe doctors are taught not to know their patients too well, jo, to protect their own emotions. their patient's body, yes, if they can. ironically, i think a person's thought processes probably gives a lot more insight into the state of that person's body, than is given consideration (and maybe the reverse of that is also true). ie. . . . my thought processes are generally all over the map/my symptoms are all over the map. but then, which influences which?LOL
however, consider that possibly what is extant in "apparent intellectual ability, perception, co-ordination, etc" IS normal for that person, given whatever the current circumstances of his/her health. we are very creatively adaptive beings, when we've accepted situations (even momentarily), which require our adaptations/adaptability. sooo, i think doctors have to also make use of some kind of paradigm that approximates "optimum normalcy" for their clinical evaluations that are based upon what is and/or isn't correctable. and that's a tough call, given some complex cases.
wouldn't i'd love to walk into my doctor's office and frankly say, "normal for me is doing what i could do 40 years ago, though i'd settle for what i could do 10 years ago . . . now, get to work, doc, and get me back to normal!" (ahhhh, dream on, katie; dream of the days of yore.) heck, i don't even know what's normal for me anymore; it changes from day to day.
in my case, i think because i had polio as a toddler and the car wreck in my early twenties, i've learned to accept what nobody else considers normal, as normal. trouble is, i've been accepting whatever else comes along in my life as normal, too, even when it is correctable, cuz i'm used to things not being correctable.
i know how dumb that sounds, but it is the kind of thing that happens to people who have learned to be adaptable about big things. then little things come along and they're no big deal to adapt to, so they are no big deal . . . until, those things "become" a big deal and adapting no longer works. and of course, i often ask myself what is the common sense of the situation. guess what wins out for me? if i can function, i'm ok. but, what i forget is that i've adapted so that i can function. see what i mean about my thought processes being all over the map?LOL
i better stop writing before i make you as dizzy as i am.LOL
kate
Nell - 29 Nov 2004 03:52 GMT >>>>sigh . . . is that where my brain's functional consistency went. so, >>>>then [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > (And yes there was a time when I could express myself mush better than this) That's why I wish a medical doctor who goes to my church and sits across from me, took my insurance. It's a bummer. The chiropractor in my church doesn't either.
Nell
Jo Firey - 29 Nov 2004 05:50 GMT > That's why I wish a medical doctor who goes to my church and sits across > from me, took my insurance. It's a bummer. The chiropractor in my church > doesn't either. > > Nell It's one of the things I like about living in a smaller town. My PCP knows me outside of the doctor patient relationship. Not well but we see each other around town at kids sports and stuff. Same with several other doctors. It helps both ways to know they see you as a person and you see them the same way. The accounting practice where I once worked did taxes for the biggest clinic in town as well as most of its doctors so I still know a lot of them.
Jo
RoseB - 28 Nov 2004 18:47 GMT >Chronic pain may permanently shrink the brain, US researchers believe. Well shoot! This is not good news for someone who has had JRA for 35 years, with the first 30 of not having any control.
Rose @}>->-- Being educated means that rather than fearing the unknown, one seeks to understand it. RB
Please remove "Ima" to reply.
Nell - 29 Nov 2004 03:58 GMT >>Chronic pain may permanently shrink the brain, US researchers believe. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Please remove "Ima" to reply. I sent the article to my daughter, who has JRA since age 2. It might not have been the best thing to send as she's off work for three days from a work related injury. She's a stocker at Wal-Mart and dropped a pallet on her foot.
She was in terrible pain in her back Thanksgiving. She had to work that night and was not a happy camper. They had to get ready for the "blitz" of Black Friday.
Nell
Kelly Cobb - 29 Nov 2004 04:15 GMT > I sent the article to my daughter, who has JRA since age 2. It might not > have been the best thing to send as she's off work for three days from a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Nell Nell, my best to your daughter. I also work in retail, but my store is closed on the major holidays. I did have to work Black Friday, though, and thought I would die by the time it was over. My hips were killing me. And I've only had RA for 11 years...I don't know how your daughter does it.
Hubby and I are considering consulting a financial advisor to find out if it's feasible for me to quit working. I'm not disabled, but would like to enjoy some of Rachel's childhood with her as I've worked full-time since I was 15 and missed all her baby years. Would also like to enjoy whatever years of goodish health I have left.
I'm rambling again...:o)
Kelly C.
Jo Firey - 29 Nov 2004 05:53 GMT >> I sent the article to my daughter, who has JRA since age 2. It might not >> have been the best thing to send as she's off work for three days from a [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Kelly C. Be careful to maintain your eligibility for disability. To get social security disability you have to have worked for a while recently. Somebody here knows the rules on that better than I do.
Jo
Kelly Cobb - 29 Nov 2004 15:12 GMT > > Nell, my best to your daughter. I also work in retail, but my store is > > closed on the major holidays. I did have to work Black Friday, though, and [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Jo Thanks for the reminder, Jo. We have considered that. It's one of the things we'll ask about...whether I could maybe continue working for the same employer, but at a much reduced number of hours.
Kelly C.;o)
RhondaM - 03 Dec 2004 06:55 GMT I have always wondered what happened to me!!!!! Gosh that explains it..:o) I thought it was just brain farts. All in good fun
> copied from alt.med.fibromyalgia > [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > > ? BBC MMIV
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