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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Arthritis / December 2004

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Medical Marajuana - Supreme Court

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Mary Z - 29 Nov 2004 13:37 GMT
Interesting,  this case deals with a women with FM and Lupus. -- MZ

Cure or Crime?
South Bay medical marijuana users await U.S. Supreme Court ruling.
Justices will hear arguments in the case today.
By Nick Green
Daily Breeze

Before one 43-year-old Lomita resident summons the resolve to perform
basic daily tasks like brushing her teeth, she must tackle the
debilitating pain that is her constant companion.

So, Shelly, who requested her last name be withheld, takes a muscle
relaxant, gingerly stretches for 30 minutes -- and then takes what she
calls her medication with names like Super Silver Haze or Morningstar.



Shelly uses marijuana on a doctor's recommendation.

Her medical use of marijuana helps combat lupus, an auto-immune
deficiency, and the excruciating pain caused by a muscle and tendon
condition known as fibromyalgia that leaves her hobbling and sometimes
needing a cane to walk. The afflictions have left the former telephone
customer service employee unable to work and on long-term disability.

Marijuana, she says, helps alleviate nausea that can cause her to
vomit for hours, muscle spasms that wrack her body and severe
migraines that can leave her curled up sobbing in a fetal position in
a darkened bedroom.

"Every single thing I do is a pain decision," said Shelly sitting
stiffly in apparent discomfort in her living room that is a stone's
throw from the Lomita sheriff's station. "But I use pain medication as
a last resort. I don't want that groggy feeling you get from pain
medication. I want to be able to function.

"People who say you can't have (marijuana) haven't limped in my shoes.
I couldn't survive without it."

Under state law, a majority of voters have said Shelly can use medical
marijuana, based on the 1996 passage of Proposition 215.

But the federal government says she can't, refuses to recognize state
law and insists that marijuana has no accepted medical use.

Today, the U.S. Supreme Court will hear oral arguments in a case that
may resolve the conflicting federal and state statutes.

"We want more clarity on this issue," said Richard Meyer, spokesman
for the Drug Enforcement Agency in San Francisco. "Never before has a
substance become medicine by a popular vote without making that
substance go through a rigorous process that the Food and Drug
Administration puts all drugs through."

It's the second time in three years the court has addressed the issue.

In 2001, the court ruled against the distribution of medical
marijuana, a decision that prompted raids on growing operations.

Ashcroft v. Raich

This time medical marijuana proponents are more optimistic about
Ashcroft v. Raich, a suit brought by an Oakland medical marijuana
patient.

"This is the ideal case to have before the Supreme Court," said Steve
Fox, director of government relations for the nonprofit Marijuana
Policy Project, one of the organizations helping pay for the
litigation.

"The named plaintiff in the case is a highly sympathetic patient whose
medical need for marijuana cannot reasonably be questioned. And there
is no evidence at all -- in fact it's pretty much been stipulated by
all parties involved -- there was no interstate commerce involved."

That last point is key.

It is the so-called Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution, which
covers interstate trade, that the federal government interprets as
giving it broad powers to regulate the sale and distribution of
medical marijuana.

For decades, the U.S. Supreme Court has approved a gradual expansion
of the Commerce Clause, awarding the federal government ever
increasing regulatory authority.

But the last two major decisions affecting the Commerce Clause before
the conservative-leaning court dating back to 1995 have resulted in
the majority ruling against expanding the Commerce Clause -- and in
favor of states' rights -- for the first time since 1936.

The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals adopted a similar stance last
December, when it ruled that medical marijuana activities do not cross
state lines, setting up the latest legal battle.

"People who have studied the law understand there always seems to be a
drug policy exception to the Constitution -- when a drug case comes to
the Supreme Court suddenly the federal government power seems to be
unlimited," Fox said. "So, it would be foolhardy to predict the
Supreme Court is going to overrule the 9th Circuit. But, if they are
going to be ideologically consistent, it would be possible or perhaps
likely to uphold state rights in this circumstance."

A growing consensus

Medical marijuana is not a partisan issue and polls suggest support
for medical marijuana is widespread and -- no pun intended -- growing.

Proposition 215 passed when 56 percent of California voters cast
ballots in favor of it. Today, an independent poll released earlier
this year showed that figure has risen to 74 percent of registered
voters.

South Bay Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, R-Huntington Beach, a close Bush
administration ally, opposes the federal government stance on the
issue.

For the past two years he has co-sponsored an amendment prohibiting
the federal government from interfering in state medical marijuana
laws. It has failed both times, although Rohrabacher believes if
voting were conducted by secret ballot politicians who fear being
branded as soft on drugs during a re-election campaign would likely
have voted for it.

Rohrabacher, whose youthful dalliances with the drug are well
documented, said in part his view was shaped by watching his mother
die after an operation led to medical complications he believed may
have been alleviated by marijuana.

"A lot of people always suggest that conservatives talk about little
government on economic issues, but don't stand up for people on some
of these other issues," he said. "I think there is some justification
to that criticism.

"I don't believe the federal government should be at the level of
government that controls every aspect of our society. I am someone who
believes in federalism, just like our founding fathers did and
especially criminal justice issues should be local or state
(controlled)."

As far as the District Attorney's Office is concerned that's the case
with medical marijuana users.

"We follow state law," said spokeswoman Jane Robison. "If they've got
a valid doctor's prescription and (the marijuana) is for medical
purposes, we don't prosecute."

Meyer, the DEA spokesman, concedes some local jurisdictions do not
cooperate with the federal government.

But, while he concedes that THC -- the active ingredient in marijuana
-- "may have some therapeutic value," he believes the marijuana lobby
is using the seriously ill "to twist their own agenda" of legalizing
all illegal drugs.

Some dubious claims

"I've heard reports that say marijuana is a life-saving drug and if
(medical marijuana patients) don't smoke marijuana they may very well
die for the lack of marijuana," Meyer said. "I know that is false. I
know the American Medical Association does not endorse marijuana. In
fact, the AMA says marijuana should remain illegal, that marijuana is
not a harmless drug and that more research is needed."

But the AMA also believes doctors and patients should not be subject
to "criminal sanctions" because "effective patient care requires the
free and unfettered exchange of information on treatment
alternatives."

Peter Warren, the San Pedro-based spokesman of the California Medical
Association, which represents the state's 35,000 physicians, goes
further.

The CMA believes that while more studies of marijuana are needed, it
certainly isn't as dangerous a drug as painkillers like Demerol that
can kill in high enough dosages, he said.

Warren charges that the Bush administration is engaged in the
politicizing of medicine and seeks to disrupt the confidentiality of
the patient-doctor relationship.

Hesitant to recommend

Many physicians, fearful of legal consequences or the possible loss of
their medical license, are hesitant to recommend marijuana to their
patients, even as a drug of last resort, where all other alternatives
have failed, he said.

"The federal government is engaged in scaring physicians and
intimidating them for trying to provide the best care possible for
very sick people," Warren said.

"We find it inappropriate for the Justice Department to try and get
between doctors and patients or try to scare patients or physicians
into talking about this. This isn't a medically based decision, this
is a political or criminal law-based decision."

An oncologist who works for one of the two largest cancer clinics in
Torrance, but asked not to be identified, said that he has seen it
benefit patients, decreasing pain, stimulating appetite, enhancing
moods and reducing nausea.

But the cancer specialist said he doesn't recommend it to patients in
part because of the conflict between federal and state laws.

"We're not sure if it keeps them from being prosecuted by a federal
court," he said. "It's my obligation to prevent any harassment of the
patient."

But some physicians, like Dr. William Vicary, the Los Angeles-based
psychiatrist who treats Lomita resident Shelly, recommends it to
chronically ill patients as a "last resort."

Marijuana can help some seriously ill patients and the federal
government knows it, he said, pointing to the legal drug Marinol, a
THC synthetic. But many patients, such as Shelly, find that not only
is Marinol expensive, it is not as effective as marijuana.

"If the argument is marijuana doesn't do any good, what is the federal
government doing approving this medication?" Vicary asked. "The
quality of her life would be substantially diminished were she not to
have access to medical marijuana."

Indeed, Shelly said she doesn't live day by day.

She cuts her life into 15-minute segments; it's a tactic used by
someone whose existence is so overwhelming it can take three days to
vacuum her condominium."

"I have the fear that if someone finds out who I am, they'll throw me
in jail," she said.

"I'm hoping that more people realize marijuana is not a dangerous drug
-- it's just a medication. I'm hoping we get more people with that
point of view on the Supreme Court -- and on every court."



Visit my website:
http://www.mzuschlag.com
d'huit - 29 Nov 2004 16:35 GMT
> Interesting,  this case deals with a women with FM and Lupus. -- MZ
>
[quoted text clipped - 230 lines]
> -- it's just a medication. I'm hoping we get more people with that
> point of view on the Supreme Court -- and on every court."

fingers crossed that the supreme court does the right thing by the people
who truly are helped by marijuana.

there are recreational users/addictive personality abusers of prescription
drugs, abusers of even common chemicals and common on-the-shelf products,
some of which are not even in the pharmacy section of the grocery store.
there will always be these kinds of abusers and there always have been.
some people believe marijuana is a gateway drug.  for an abuser, almost
anything can be a gateway drug.  does that mean we should ban and stop
selling common products and prescription drugs?  of course not, and we
don't.

some courts know that congress can't legislate people into having good
character, good personality traits and into personal responsibility for
one's self.  i wish those people who don't know that, would learn it.

our oldest son came into our lives with a drug and alcohol problem when he
was 12.  frankly, it was hell to deal with, for him, as well as for us
(which includes our youngest son).   it took several years for him to
finally turned himself and his life's path in a new and better direction.
we knew we didn't have the power to do that for him, though believe me, we
wished we did.  he had to be the one to make his choices, for good or ill.

we didn't empty our liquor cabinet to protect him from himself (knowing he
had a problem, i did score the bottles discretely, to indicate levels and
was diligent about checking them).  but, believe me, he noticed that the
booze in that cabinet was very rarely touched by butch or me and he knew our
ground rules made that cabinet off-limits to him.  he violated that rule
just once.  and we put the responsibility for that violation squarely on his
shoulders.  he knew no excuses would be accepted for violating our rule and
his adherence to that rule.  he wanted us to lock the liquor cabinet up or
get rid of the temptation.   we told him, no, and explained that no was
because the world he had to live in is full of temptations and that he had
to learn how to be responsible for and to himself.  no, we didn't make it
easier for him.  we didn't because that would have set a pattern of his
expecting others to protect him from himself and his being able to blame
others for not doing that, instead of accepting his responsibility for his
own actions.

there are a lot of very ill people who are responsible people and should be
afforded the opportunity to help themselves function better with their
diseases.  if that means legalizing marijuana, regulating it and the growing
of it, and also dispensing it like prescription drugs, then, i say do it.
it is morally wrong to withhold something that has been proven to help
seriously ill people and allow them to continue to suffer, just because
somebody "wants us to lock up the liquor cabinet".

kate
Harvey R. Stone - 29 Nov 2004 18:49 GMT
> there are a lot of very ill people who are responsible people and should
> be afforded the opportunity to help themselves function better with their
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> kate

As long as we are talking about terminally ill people,,,,,, I agree with
you.   If we are talking about a way that people can continue to get what
ruins their life,,,,, I do not agree with it.

Not a large blanket here,,,,, a small amount of people that this will help
to make their short time on this earth,,,, better.... Go for it.
Harv
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.802 / Virus Database: 545 - Release Date: 11/26/2004
d'huit - 29 Nov 2004 19:57 GMT
>> there are a lot of very ill people who are responsible people and should
>> be afforded the opportunity to help themselves function better with their
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> As long as we are talking about terminally ill people,,,,,, I agree with
> you.

uhhhh, harv, there was no mention that the woman in the supreme court case
was terminal.  (guess you and i must agree to disagree.)  there are many
other non-terminal illnesses that marijuana helps ease the symptoms of, ie .
. . lots of cancer patients on chemotherapy (who suffer terribly from their
treatments), who are not terminal, would benefit from maijuana.  if marijuna
were legal, should we go ahead and allow those people to continue
unnecessarily suffer, because they are not dying?  that's like arbitrarily
deciding that RA patients, who are not terminal, should not get biologics or
narcotic painkillers  or drugs that were designed for one thing and used for
another like mtx.

If we are talking about a way that people can continue to get what
> ruins their life,,,,, I do not agree with it.

obviously, having had a son who was a drug abuser and is no longer one, i
was not suggesting we willy-nilly give abusers drugs, guy.  besides which,
people who make the choice, to get things that ruin their lives, are going
to continue to get them, exactly the way they get them right now, harv.
that will not change.  as they say, "locks are made for honest people."
legislative "locks" are no different, harv.  but these kinds of legislative
"locks" will lock out honest and very ill people from getting something
might help them, not the dishonest people who will get them anyhow.

> Not a large blanket here,,,,, a small amount of people that this will help
> to make their short time on this earth,,,, better.... Go for it.

hypothetically, what if they discovered that marijuana helped RA patients,
better than the current and available drug protocols for RA---would that
change your mind about who gets it?  would you take marijuana, under medical
supervision, in that event?  and why not?  haven't you taken legally
prescribed narcotics before?

do you really believe that RA patients don't have the opportunity to ruin
their lives, if they so chose to, with many of the drugs they take that are
narcotics?

just look at russ limbaugh and how he turned his prescriptions for his
illness into a potentially life ruining situation.  it's a matter of
character and a sense of personal responsibility that prevents people from
going out and doing the same thing russ limbaugh did, harv.  the law didn't
prevent him from doing what he did.

kate

> Harv

>> ---
>> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
>> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>> Version: 6.0.802 / Virus Database: 545 - Release Date: 11/26/2004
Harvey R. Stone - 29 Nov 2004 20:58 GMT
>> As long as we are talking about terminally ill people,,,,,, I agree with
>> you.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> marijuna were legal, should we go ahead and allow those people to continue
> unnecessarily suffer, because they are not dying?

How many do you know?   They are close to it and what they are having done
means they in need of whatever they can get to make it easier.
The medicine or procedures is killing part of their body.     They fall into
whatever it takes to make it better.

that's like arbitrarily
> deciding that RA patients, who are not terminal, should not get biologics
> or narcotic painkillers  or drugs that were designed for one thing and
> used for another like mtx.

JMO,,,,, they are not in this class of people even Kitty.

> If we are talking about a way that people can continue to get what
>> ruins their life,,,,, I do not agree with it.

What the hell would you not agree with??? You surely know someone that has
had their life ruined with a start on Mary Jane.

> obviously, having had a son who was a drug abuser and is no longer one, i
> was not suggesting we willy-nilly give abusers drugs, guy.  besides which,
> people who make the choice, to get things that ruin their lives, are going
> to continue to get them, exactly the way they get them right now, harv.

Yes,,, an unlike people like you,,, I am not going to do or support anything
that will further what is taking place.
> that will not change.  as they say, "locks are made for honest people."
> legislative "locks" are no different, harv.

If that were true we would have no laws and no people in politics that
supported laws....  Aaah well maybe one party support the lack of laws.

but these kinds of legislative
> "locks" will lock out honest and very ill people from getting something
> might help them, not the dishonest people who will get them anyhow.
Wayyy too general a statement but understandable.
>> Not a large blanket here,,,,, a small amount of people that this will
>> help to make their short time on this earth,,,, better.... Go for it.
>
> hypothetically, what if they discovered that marijuana helped RA patients,
> better than the current and available drug protocols for RA---would that
> change your mind about who gets it?

NO,,,,, it might pat you on the back but not OK in my world.

would you take marijuana, under medical
> supervision, in that event?  and why not?  haven't you taken legally
> prescribed narcotics before?

I know you think everyone has dipped into the world of drugs and
stimulants,,,,, but it is not in the real world of people that run this
country or our businesses      and no I have not.

> do you really believe that RA patients don't have the opportunity to ruin
> their lives, if they so chose to, with many of the drugs they take that
> are narcotics?

You really need to rethink what you have said above in a newsgroup for the
support of people with Arthritis.   The mental support that is constructive
is not the picture you have drawn above.

> just look at russ limbaugh and how he turned his prescriptions for his
> illness into a potentially life ruining situation.  it's a matter of
> character and a sense of personal responsibility that prevents people from
> going out and doing the same thing russ limbaugh did, harv.

 That is correct and it is the cross he must carry.  It does not mean it is
OK for anyone else.   It does not mean that I should support anything that
would make it easier for anyone else to do THE SAME THING.

the law didn't
> prevent him from doing what he did.
>
> kate

  Because people break the law does not mean that we should do away with
the law that is an effort to hold society together.....  Please go back and
look at what you support and the reasons why and it might give you some
answers with your son.
Harv
d'huit - 29 Nov 2004 22:42 GMT
>>> harv said-- As long as we are talking about terminally ill people,,,,,,
>>> I agree with you.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>> go ahead and allow those people to continue unnecessarily suffer, because
>> they are not dying?

harv said--- How many do you know?   They are close to it and what they are
having done
> means they in need of whatever they can get to make it easier.
> The medicine or procedures is killing part of their body.     They fall
> into whatever it takes to make it better.

*****kate said---harv, i've known lots of people with cancer, more than i
can list here.  my own mother is a cancer survivor, three uncles and an aunt
died of cancer, a cousin in her twenties died of cancer.  one uncle has
lived with cancer/survived for the past ten years.  my best friend and
butch's best friend died of cancer.  my nephew's wife survived cancer, my
cousin's wife survived cancer.  my neighbor survived a double radical
mastectomy, some 15 years ago.  all of them underwent chemo, except my
mother (who's been cancer-free since the early 1960s).  and it is true that
many more who i've known have not survived.   soooooo, from what you've said
above, all patients on chemo can have legalized mj?

>kate said--- that's like arbitrarily
>> deciding that RA patients, who are not terminal, should not get biologics
>> or narcotic painkillers  or drugs that were designed for one thing and
>> used for another like mtx.
>
>harv said--- JMO,,,,, they are not in this class of people even Kitty.

******kate said---you're entitled to your opinion, guy.

>>harv said--- If we are talking about a way that people can continue to get
>>what
>>> ruins their life,,,,, I do not agree with it.
>
> harv said---What the hell would you not agree with??? You surely know
> someone that has had their life ruined with a start on Mary Jane.

****kate said---harv, you wrote that-what you are commenting upon, not me.
i wish nobody would want or get addicted to anything that ruins their lives.

>>kate said---- obviously, having had a son who was a drug abuser and is no
>>longer one, i was not suggesting we willy-nilly give abusers drugs, guy.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> harv said----Yes,,, an unlike people like you,,, I am not going to do or
> support anything that will further what is taking place.

*****kate said---soooo, you don't support booze or beer or wine, then,
either, cuz there are lots of alcoholics with ruined lives.  it validly
could be said that beer or wine is a gateway into alcoholism, too.
alcoholics generally start out with what is cheapest, beer or wine.

>>kate said--- that will not change.  as they say, "locks are made for
>>honest people." legislative "locks" are no different, harv.
>
>harv said---- If that were true we would have no laws and no people in
>politics that supported laws....  Aaah well maybe one party support the
>lack of laws.

****kate said---it is true that locks are "supposed" to protect honest
people, but dishonest people kick doors in.  grow up, harv.  rebumblingcans
and democraps are both made up of human beings.  human beings are not
perfect in either party.   some are more flawed than others, some more moral
than others, some more legalistic than others, some more spiritual/religious
than others--in both parties.  rebumblingcans do NOT have a corner on
morality nor religion.  god is NOT on the side of rebumblingcans, just
because they believe they have the best ideas and opinions nor because they
are more self-righteous and judgmental.  while the bible may be infallible
to christians, the christians/people reading it and interpretting it and
applying it, are not infallible.

>kate said--- but these kinds of legislative
>> "locks" will lock out honest and very ill people from getting something
>> might help them, not the dishonest people who will get them anyhow.

>harv said--- Wayyy too general a statement but understandable.

****kate said ---you don't understand the nature of the beast, harv.   you
can't protect people from themselves, if they don't want to be protected
from themselves.

>>>harv said--- Not a large blanket here,,,,, a small amount of people that
>>>this will help to make their short time on this earth,,,, better.... Go
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>harv said--- NO,,,,, it might pat you on the back but not OK in my world.

****kate said--- no pat on my back, harv.

>kate said--- would you take marijuana, under medical
>> supervision, in that event?  and why not?  haven't you taken legally
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>and stimulants,,,,, but it is not in the real world of people that run this
>country or our businesses      and no I have not.

****kate said---oh, forgive me for assuming you have taken painkillers,
harv.  that was presumptuous of me.

>> kate said----do you really believe that RA patients don't have the
>> opportunity to ruin their lives, if they so chose to, with many of the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> newsgroup for the support of people with Arthritis.   The mental support
> that is constructive is not the picture you have drawn above.

*****kate said --- you misunderstood me, harv.  people on asa don't choose
to ruin their lives, because that's not what they are about and these people
have great quality of character.  but, IF somebody decided to ruin his or
her with drugs, s/he can find a way, especially if they can create an excuse
for it out of a real illness.  and a lot of people have done exactly that.

>>kate said--- just look at russ limbaugh and how he turned his
>>prescriptions for his illness into a potentially life ruining situation.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> harv said--- That is correct and it is the cross he must carry.  It does
> not mean it is OK for anyone else.

*****kate said----yes, it is his responsibility.  and it is not ok for
anybody to model themselves after his behavior, because it is unacceptable
behavior and he should go to jail for it.

harv said----It does not mean that I should support anything that
> would make it easier for anyone else to do THE SAME THING.

*****kate said--- for pete's sake, harv, addicts/people are addicted to
prescriptive drugs, alcohol, dieting, excercise, food, thrill-seeking,
gambling, coffee and on and on and on.  it has nothing to do with our making
anything easier for them to do the same thing as rush limbaugh.  it has
everything to do with their addictive personalities and their character
deficits.  you don't have to make it easier for them, because whether you do
or not doesn't matter---they'll do it anyhow.

>kate said--- the law didn't
>> prevent him from doing what he did.
>>
> harv said----  Because people break the law does not mean that we should
> do away with the law that is an effort to hold society together.....

*****kate said----there are good laws, that last the test of time.  and
there are bad laws, that wind up modified or repealed.  marijuana is a drug,
morphene is a drug.  one is illegal for medicinal purposes and one is legal
for medicinal purposes.  you don't prescribe morphene for a cold, neither
would you prescribe marijuana for a hang nail, if it were legal.

harv said----Please go back and
> look at what you support and the reasons why and it might give you some
> answers with your son.

****kate said---you are WAAAAY, WAAAAAAY outta line, here, BUDDY!  and you
better know it!  if i wanted to be really nasty about what you just said
about me and my son, i could make some very devastating comments about your
daughter, but i won't.  suffice it to say, our son was raised for 12 years
by his birth mother and his step father who were not butch and me.  he came
to butch and me with his drug and alcohol abuse problems, after his step
father died and his birth mother couldn't handle him.  by the time he first
entered the air force and was in the gulf war, he had a pretty damn good
handle on his life.  today he is a baptist minister, husband and father of 5
boys.  and i am damn proud of how he turned himself around.  i give him all
the credit, even though it was damn hard work helping him do that.  and you,
mister, owe me an apology for being a judgmental a.shole about me and my
family!

kate
> Harv
Harvey R. Stone - 30 Nov 2004 04:56 GMT
"d'huit"

I have read what you have had to say and it was well done in a wordy kind of
way.   When you apply it to life,,, it may not survive.   It works for you
and that is important to you and yours but do not apply it to the rest of
the world,,,, some of us do not think the way you do, or live the way you
do,,,, and guess what,,, it is enough to elect a president and still enough
to support our legal system,,, constitution,,,ect,,,ect  enough said and you
do understand what I have said.    You and I can live with what we believe
and how it is applied to life.....    Results are what counts and what our
young become,,,, is what counts.....  You have not been updated on mine and
I have not been updated on yours but we know and we live with it.   Just
like very one else.                My last post on this thread sooooooooo
run you mouth at will.  Changes nothing.
Harv
Thumper - 29 Nov 2004 23:40 GMT
>>> As long as we are talking about terminally ill people,,,,,, I agree with
>>> you.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>The medicine or procedures is killing part of their body.     They fall into
>whatever it takes to make it better.

The point is that it should be up to the patient and doctor, not the
federal government.    Doctors prescribe thousands of medications that
are more harmful and habit forming than Marijuana.
Thumper

> that's like arbitrarily
>> deciding that RA patients, who are not terminal, should not get biologics
[quoted text clipped - 70 lines]
>answers with your son.
>Harv

To reply drop XYZ in address
Nann Bell - 30 Nov 2004 04:15 GMT
> The point is that it should be up to the patient and doctor, not the
> federal government.    Doctors prescribe thousands of medications that
> are more harmful and habit forming than Marijuana.
> Thumper

That's what it's all about for me.  I do believe it is possible for marijuana
to be a legitimate medication and not just for pain.  A former boyfriend of
mine had stomach problems from an exposure to Agent Orange in Vietnam.  Whe
his stomach started churning, marijuana calmed it better than anything els
and allowed him to continue doing things rather than curling up from
discomfort.  

Like ANY drug, it can be *abused* and it can be *used*.  I really think the
fed's money and energy to combat the street drug problem could be put to
better use than fighting the states that choose to allow strictly limited
medical marijuana use.

Signature

Nann
remove the Gator cheer to email me
Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare

Janet R - 30 Nov 2004 05:28 GMT
I have nausea due to Lupus nearly everyday, esp. at night.  Rx pills
actually make it worse...my stomach is already upset, adding pills
either sets it on fire or puts me to sleep.

Let me see...I getting to where I don't like eating, but if there is
something that can make a few days tolerable I might just give it a
try.  I don't drink, steal, smoke, am a faithful wife and hopefully a
good mom....I doubt a substance that will alleviate my nausea will
change that.  If I wanted to be a junkie I have a basket of Rx I take
throughout the day that I could abuse...but I don't.

Its priorities....My family is my priorities.  My crafts and art is a
priority.  My friends depend on my and vice versa.  I have better
things to do than become a junkie.

But one day....maybe just one day....without nausea would be nice.

Janet R

|> The point is that it should be up to the patient and doctor, not the
| > federal government.    Doctors prescribe thousands of medications that
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
| better use than fighting the states that choose to allow strictly limited
| medical marijuana use.
Kelly Cobb - 30 Nov 2004 06:16 GMT
> I have nausea due to Lupus nearly everyday, esp. at night.  Rx pills
> actually make it worse...my stomach is already upset, adding pills
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Janet R

((((Janet))))

Interestingly, or not, pot *makes* me nauseous. I always knew I was the
oddball.lol

What works for some doesn't work for others. When you find something that
works, you should be able to have access to it, as with any other medicine,
without guilt.

Here in Oregon it's still legal to grow enough for personal use, if you are
registered with the state as a person who needs it for treatment of chronic
pain, etc. The problem arises when the person who needs it is unable to
produce their own, say because of paralysis, etc.

Anyway, I hope you find a medicine that works and that you get many more
than one day without nausea.

Hugs,
Kelly C.
Janet R - 30 Nov 2004 06:26 GMT
Thanks Kelly....I have never tried it, so I have no idea how it may
effect me.

Surely if this is legalized they will come up with a different
delivery method.  Many folks simply cannot smoke.  I do not have
enough lung capacity to play with these days...LOL

Janet R

| > I have nausea due to Lupus nearly everyday, esp. at night.  Rx pills
| > actually make it worse...my stomach is already upset, adding pills
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
| Hugs,
| Kelly C.
Kelly Cobb - 30 Nov 2004 14:49 GMT
> Thanks Kelly....I have never tried it, so I have no idea how it may
> effect me.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Janet R

Janet, check your email.

Kelly C.;o)
Kelly Cobb - 30 Nov 2004 15:05 GMT
Nevermind, couldn't unmunge your addy properly. Send me an email and I'll
send you what I've found.

Kelly C.;o)
trey rules - 01 Dec 2004 06:52 GMT
>any folks simply cannot smoke.  I do not have
>enough lung capacity to play with these days...LOL

most of the people who use it here medicinally in oregon vaporize it which isnt
smoking it. im glad i live in a state which allows it. im afraid of what's
going to happen when the supreme court turns it down, cuz they most likely
will. its a conservative majority over there.

marnie

~*~* my captive gaze inside your eyes *~*~

my list: http://db.etree.org/telafree 
handblown glass? go to http://www.nwseaglass.com
bored? check out www.seamonkeysoup.com/welcome

Nann Bell - 01 Dec 2004 14:30 GMT
> most of the people who use it here medicinally in oregon vaporize it which
> isnt
> smoking it. im glad i live in a state which allows it.

what is vaporizing as opposed to smoking?  I'm curious, though I don't expect
to ever be using it.  I know from past daliances that smoking pot is brutal
on my sinuses so I'd have to be in severe discomfort with no other options to
even consider it.  

im afraid of what's
> going to happen when the supreme court turns it down, cuz they most likely
> will. its a conservative majority over there.

sometimes the courts really surprise you though.  Legal minds see these
questions differently from the general public.  It will probably be a strict
interpretation of state vs. federal law, when the feds can pre-empt the
states.  It will be interesting from a legal viewpoint.

In fact I find it interesting from a political angle now.  Firstly, the state
vs. federal control has existed since the dawn of the nation (remember the
Articles of Confederation?)  And states rights, over federal control, was the
original issue spurring the Civil War.  The abolition of slavery was the
great good that developed from the Civil War, but it also began the swing
towards greater federal control over state actions.

Meanwhile, the Republican party historically was the one that preached the
government should stay out of people's lives and strongly opposed "big
government".  Feds AND states should impose the absolute minimum of
government necessary on the individual.  Feds also should stay out of state
actions.  That has seen a real shift as exemplified by this legal action.  
It's not the Republican party of my youth.  All things evolve.  This is what
so fascinates me about history.

Signature

Nann
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Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare

Harvey R. Stone - 30 Nov 2004 14:15 GMT
I have better  things to do than become a junkie.   But one day....maybe
just one day....without nausea would be nice.

> Janet R

Taking something and I have no idea what does not make you a junkie.    IMO
you are being a little too hard on yourself.    I have a friend that was
like that most days and he had something wrong with his inner ear causing
him to be dizzy a little.   When the doctor fixed that, no more upset
stomachs.
Harv
Ps    I am sure your doctors know how you feel right???
Janet R - 30 Nov 2004 15:40 GMT
Hi Harv,

Yeah they know...I go to a Gastro doc...have had all the test and
tried all the pills.  It is something that happens to some folks with
Lupus and I have had it for a long time -- 25 years now.  I have
finally just switched to Tums.  They are the only thing that actually
do a little something without making it worse.

I have phenegran for really bad days in a salve form that absorbs on
your wrist.  You rub it on the inside of your wrist and it take about
20 mins to work.  It has to compounded at this old drug store on this
side of town.  Of course I am asleep in no time....and I dont
metabolize it correctly so I am hung-over off and on for a couple of
days.  So I reserve its use.

But hey...I woke this morning and a BEAUTIFUL Cardinal was on my bench
near my pond eating seeds.  I love it when God sends me visitors!  I
tried to take his picture, but the rain messed up the focus.  He was
the color of poinsettias.  My dog even left him alone.

You know Harv....I've had precarious health for a long time, since I
was 12.  When I was younger I was told "it was in my head"...they
didn't even do bloodwork!  But during that time I learned to deal with
(insert whatever word fits here).  I guess nausea is a little thing in
the bigger scheme of things, but after 2 solid years of it and break
would be nice.  Sometimes we see a little hope in unconventional means
and just wonder if it might work.  To be totally honest, I don't think
I could use MJ till much more research was done....but I couldn't
refuse someone else some comfort they desperately need.  When we feel
better we can enjoy our families and friends.

Maybe those who are more open-minded or willing to chance it will lead
the way to a new treatment for us one day.  You don't have to agree
with it (and I'm not sure I do entirely)....but just flip the coin
over and look at the other side.

Stepping off the soapbox,
Janet

| I have better  things to do than become a junkie.   But one day....maybe
| just one day....without nausea would be nice.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
| Harv
| Ps    I am sure your doctors know how you feel right???
Harvey R. Stone - 30 Nov 2004 18:02 GMT
> Hi Harv,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> finally just switched to Tums.  They are the only thing that actually
> do a little something without making it worse.

I had about of acide reflux when I was taking Arava for my RA.   I have had
two friends that had Lupus in my life.   I do not remember either one have a
upset stomach problem.  I wonder what the connection is???

> I have phenegran for really bad days in a salve form that absorbs on
> your wrist.  You rub it on the inside of your wrist and it take about
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> But hey...I woke this morning and a BEAUTIFUL Cardinal was on my bench
> near my pond eating seeds.  I love it when God sends me visitors!

Oh my,,, that reminds me, I have to go feed our fish.   I have two fish
ponds,,, small and have them connected with a spillway, one to the other and
a filter pumping water up into the other one.   I sit many a day and watch
squirrels in our feeder and it makes all the worlds troubles go away

> I tried to take his picture, but the rain messed up the focus.  He was
> the color of poinsettias.  My dog even left him alone.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Stepping off the soapbox,
> Janet

Well said and a good look at your world.    I will let people that are far
more informed than I decide what would be the best thing to do and our drug
laws are a complete failure but it is the law and should be changed.    One
of the biggest problems about it is people mixing medical and recreation in
their discussion.   They do not mix well and what is said ends in a spiral
into politics.   I do not see it being solved soon.
Harv
Janet R - 30 Nov 2004 19:59 GMT
Hey Harv...when's the next time you and your wife will be out this
way? I know it getting colder and Houston traffic is pathetic, but if
you are out here anyways, let me know.  I want you to stop by for a
visit.

I have a large koi pond and a smaller water lily pond.  We usually
take part in the Houston Pond Tour if I am feeling well.

Janet R

| > Hi Harv,
| >
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
| into politics.   I do not see it being solved soon.
| Harv
Harvey R. Stone - 30 Nov 2004 22:22 GMT
> Hey Harv...when's the next time you and your wife will be out this
> way? I know it getting colder and Houston traffic is pathetic, but if
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Janet R

That would be nice....  Wow you are talking serious pond here.   Mine is
just my piddling with stuff I have put together.   Please send me an email
with directions and we will make it happen down the road as they say after
the first of the year.   Christmas time is very important to my church and
my family.... Lots to do.
Harv
janers - 01 Dec 2004 23:16 GMT
I will take a step here.  I have lupus too, and definately know what Janet
is talking about.  I deal with a lot of nausea and have had terrible
problems with my GI track. One such problem was achalasia, which I am not
going to go INTO right now.  to to long, but for those wanting to know,
email me.

About the nausea, I was told the lupus does this because it is a connective
tissue disease as well as auto immune. The esophagus an stomach are are
muscles and they are effected by the lupus in that they do not work like
they normally should.  Thus, there is  a decrease in motility as well as
increase, depending on the severity of the lupus in each person.  I do
support for the foundation and about 9 out of 10 patients I work or have
supported Had the nausea.  Harv, if you knew a couple then thank God that
they did not.  It is no fun.

I wake some mornings with no nausea, only to eat and still none.  Then out
of the blue, it hits like, well you get the picture.  You don't want to
eat, it makes you want to puke with nothing there to puke up.  I take meds
for it also and have found using zofran, like the  cancer patients use,
when receiving IV chemotherapy.  It honestly works good for me.

How odd this lupus is, no one is alike but alike in a lot of other things.

good luck janet, and please fill free to email me.

janers
oh and Marajuana?  I would take it in a heart beat if it helped.   Believe
it.  Life is too damn short to fight pain as well as nausea from diseases
that end up killing you, sooner or later.
JMO
Janet R - 02 Dec 2004 03:52 GMT
It is so nice to know I am not alone.  My gastro doc said he treats a
few lupus patients with nausea, but I have gastroparesis from diabetes
(after a BAD lupus flare...one week I was fine, next week I had raging
diabetes) that makes it a little more difficult to treat.  I do like
zofran, but it knocks me out, but hey I'm not skipping around the
house anyways. LOL.

Today I had a pretty good day!  I had to go to my lampworking class,
so I was distracted and ate and drank very little till I got home.  As
little as I eat one would think I would be rail thin?!

I have become a master of distracting myself.  I paint, make jewelry,
or lampworking and I really get into it with music playing. Its nice
to settle into a routine.

Thanks Janers for speaking up! :)

Janet R

|I will take a step here.  I have lupus too, and definately know what Janet
| is talking about.  I deal with a lot of nausea and have had terrible
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
| that end up killing you, sooner or later.
| JMO
Nathan Engle - 29 Nov 2004 20:17 GMT
> > there are a lot of very ill people who are responsible people and should
> > be afforded the opportunity to help themselves function better with their
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> >
> > kate

> As long as we are talking about terminally ill people,,,,,, I agree with
> you.   If we are talking about a way that people can continue to get what
> ruins their life,,,,, I do not agree with it.

This really highlights the reason why medical MJ shouldn't
even be allowed to be a blip on the radar.  US drug policy
has never (or perhaps SHOULD never) been about preventing
people from using medicines in a cautious fashion.  Yet
this so-called "principled stand" is a parting gag gift
from Mr Ashcroft that plays DIRECTLY into the hands of
the "legalize-everything" lobby.  US drug policy gains
nothing (and stands to lose a great deal) if we are
perceived as interfering with Angel Raich's medicine.

There have been times when I've been more inclined towards
Harv's point of view here, but I really think this is the
wrong issue on which to make a stand, because the thing
that will ruin Angel's life is if she is DENIED the medicine
that her state's laws entitle her to use.  NOBODY's life
is ruined if Angel does this to remain alive.  The only
thing that is likely to be ruined in the present approach
is any credibility that might have remained to the claim
that US drug policy is based in compassion and caring for
the governed.  It is ridiculous that we should even THINK
about preventing Angel from doing this trivial thing that
keeps her alive.

> Not a large blanket here,,,,, a small amount of people that this will help
> to make their short time on this earth,,,, better.... Go for it.
> Harv

I don't believe in changing the legal status of very many
drugs, but in the case of MJ it's abundantly clear that
laws concerning it CAUSE more misery than they prevent.
From practically every angle this one is a no-brainer -
from medicine to what it costs to choke our courts and
jails with pot heads - we would do ourselves a big favor
by just giving it a rest.

Signature

Nathan Engle               Computer Support, IUB Psych Dept
nengle@indiana.edu         http://mypage.iu.edu/~nengle
"Some Assembly Required"

Harvey R. Stone - 29 Nov 2004 21:03 GMT
> I don't believe in changing the legal status of very many
> drugs, but in the case of MJ it's abundantly clear that
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> jails with pot heads - we would do ourselves a big favor
> by just giving it a rest.

Hi Nathan,,,,,   There are a couple of very large problem with the support
of MJ.   All the young people that have had their life ruined by having easy
access to it   and   THE MOST IMPORTANT THING maybe,,,,,, Who is making the
profit from the sale...   Is the person buying supporting the worst kind of
criminals????   Change that and I might listen to what you have to say.
Harv
Jo Firey - 29 Nov 2004 21:22 GMT
>> I don't believe in changing the legal status of very many
>> drugs, but in the case of MJ it's abundantly clear that
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> have to say.
> Harv

Just want to nip into this thread and then get back out before it turns
ugly.

California has had a medical marijuana law for a while now.  It has enabled
many to avail themselves of the relief provided.  And it has allowed small
scale cultivation that keeps the profit away from the criminal element.

In theory.

In practice I find it unbelievable the "conditions" that are claimed to
require its use.  Every small time grower claims it is for medicinal
purposes.  And it is driving law enforcement nuts.

Our local sheriff was put in the position of being ordered by the courts to
return MJ that had been seized.  But it was against federal law for her to
do so.  And contempt of court if she didn't.  I'm sure there were better
things she could have been spending her time and the counties limited budget
on.

Still, I believe it is an area where the states should have the right to
make their own laws and deal with enforcing them.

Jo
Harvey R. Stone - 30 Nov 2004 04:31 GMT
> Still, I believe it is an area where the states should have the right to
> make their own laws and deal with enforcing them.
>
> Jo

Then in this one thing ,,,,, you support states rights.....   Take your
thinking and apply it to several of today's issues......  THIS IS VERY MUCH
OFF TOPIC IN A WAY  and I am sorry for taking part in this if it causes
anyone stress.
If it causes you to rethink some things in today's world,, maybe it is worth
it.
Harv
Nathan Engle - 29 Nov 2004 22:11 GMT
> > I don't believe in changing the legal status of very many
> > drugs, but in the case of MJ it's abundantly clear that
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > jails with pot heads - we would do ourselves a big favor
> > by just giving it a rest.

> Hi Nathan,,,,,   There are a couple of very large problem with the support
> of MJ.   All the young people that have had their life ruined by having easy
> access to it

Unfortunately the principal way that MJ can "ruin a young
person's life" is for them to be arrested because of it.
Its chemical impact is far less than the legal impact -
ergo our laws do little but make the situation worse.

> and   THE MOST IMPORTANT THING maybe,,,,,, Who is making the
> profit from the sale...   Is the person buying supporting the worst kind of
> criminals????   Change that and I might listen to what you have to say.

Ok, take the case of Angel Raich for example - the case
now before the Supreme Court.  The people who made the
profit from the sale of MJ to her were California-based
medical MJ growers - people who I frankly consider to be
on the same moral plane as the people who operated the
Underground Railroad.

To the extent that we deliberately drive MJ sales into
the hands of criminals, I'm not convinced that leaves us
with any rational grounds for complaint if we then try
to claim that "criminals profit from it".  Of course
they do.  That's the way WE set it up, and furthermore
OUR government policies artificially inflate the profits
that these criminal elements can collect.

By contrast we could divert practically ALL of the profits
of MJ into government coffers if the government could
bring itself to step in as the distributor, or if it
enacted a tax on regulated sales the way it does with
products like alcohol and tobacco and refined sugar, all
of which do more damage to American health than ALL of
the illegal drugs combined.

The number of young people's lives that have been ruined
by MJ is orders of magnitude less than the number that
have been ruined by our laws.  And furthermore the harshness
of present laws defeats one of our best defense mechanisms -
there are probably millions of mothers and spouses and
loved ones who are perfectly aware of a friend or family
member's drug problem, but they would rather face the
risk posed by the drug than the very real prospect of
the person they care about being brutalized in prison.

If these friends and family members could come forward
with reports with the confidence that it would result
in their loved one getting the help they need, we would
have their fullest cooperation.  Rehab was the correct
and compassionate choice for Noelle Bush in Florida, so
why should it be any less correct for the children of
people who don't happen to be the governor of Florida?

Adjust the penalties for drug use so that they're within
the limits that a concerned family member would consider
reasonable as a wake-up call, and US drug enforcement
could have every single mother in America on board as
a detective.

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Nathan Engle               Computer Support, IUB Psych Dept
nengle@indiana.edu         http://mypage.iu.edu/~nengle
"Some Assembly Required"

Harvey R. Stone - 30 Nov 2004 04:40 GMT
>> > I don't believe in changing the legal status of very many
>> > drugs, but in the case of MJ it's abundantly clear that
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Its chemical impact is far less than the legal impact -
> ergo our laws do little but make the situation worse.

I do not agree with you at all,,,,, in any way.    You can walk your mind
around todays laws and make it right within yourself...... but that does not
mean the law has not been broken,,, it does not mean that there is not a
good reason for the law being there.

>> and   THE MOST IMPORTANT THING maybe,,,,,, Who is making the profit from
>> the sale...   Is the person buying supporting the worst kind of
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> by MJ is orders of magnitude less than the number that
> have been ruined by our laws.

That is very much your opinion and not the real world for people that are
trying to straighten out their young people in their family.    I speak from
experience....   You speak from some dam debating team.
Do you see what I am saying?????

And furthermore the harshness
> of present laws defeats one of our best defense mechanisms -
> there are probably millions of mothers and spouses and
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> could have every single mother in America on board as
> a detective.

Bullshit   pure bullshit.......  No one needs to have drugs to make their
life livable......   If you think a person does,,,,, its about looking into
your own life and what is important.

Harv
Thumper - 30 Nov 2004 12:13 GMT
>>> > I don't believe in changing the legal status of very many
>>> > drugs, but in the case of MJ it's abundantly clear that
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>mean the law has not been broken,,, it does not mean that there is not a
>good reason for the law being there.

The marijuana laws are Draconian.  We have lost a whole generation of
young people who now have criminal records because of these laws.
It's absolutely stupid to allow people to self medicate themselves
with alcohol and persecute them for using marijuana.

I don't use it but you should try it sometime Harv.  It's simply not
the evil drug that the government says it is.

Thumper

>>> and   THE MOST IMPORTANT THING maybe,,,,,, Who is making the profit from
>>> the sale...   Is the person buying supporting the worst kind of
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
>
>Harv

To reply drop XYZ in address
Harvey R. Stone - 30 Nov 2004 14:48 GMT
> The marijuana laws are Draconian.  We have lost a whole generation of
> young people who now have criminal records because of these laws.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Thumper

LOLOLOL,   thanks for the advice thumper.  I could of used something
yesterday to take the edge off of a very frustrating day spent getting
releases and running down X rays here and CT scans there so that I could get
a open spot on todays schedule with the lung specialist.  It all got done
but it was not easy and it is not something I am used to doing.
Harv

>>>> and   THE MOST IMPORTANT THING maybe,,,,,, Who is making the profit
>>>> from
>>>> the sale...   Is the person buying supporting the worst kind of
>>>> criminals????   Change that and I might listen to what you have to say.
Janet R - 30 Nov 2004 15:43 GMT
Dang Harv....I was doing the very same chore yesterday too!!!  2
different set of x-rays and a MRI.  At least it was warmer yesterday
than today! :)

Janet R

"Harvey R. Stone" <hrstone@swbell..net> wrote in message

| LOLOLOL,   thanks for the advice thumper.  I could of used something
| yesterday to take the edge off of a very frustrating day spent getting
| releases and running down X rays here and CT scans there so that I could get
| a open spot on todays schedule with the lung specialist.  It all got done
| but it was not easy and it is not something I am used to doing.
| Harv
Nann Bell - 30 Nov 2004 14:32 GMT
> I do not agree with you at all,,,,, in any way.    You can walk your mind
> around todays laws and make it right within yourself...... but that does not
> mean the law has not been broken,,, it does not mean that there is not a
> good reason for the law being there.

The problem with that first statement is that the presence of a law does not
make it the morally correct solution in all cases.  You have indicated that
medical marijuana use might be acceptable to you for terminally ill folks.  
Does that not also translate to folks in chronic pain, unrelieved adequately
by other medications?  If not, than you are practicing a distinction the
medical profession has practiced for years with other pain medications and is
just now beginning to move beyond.  Those of us who have become functional
again with the addition of pain medication can appreciate the need for being
medicated appropriately.

The mere presence of a law does not make it right in all cases and may not
make it right at all.

> That is very much your opinion and not the real world for people that are
> trying to straighten out their young people in their family.    I speak from
> experience....   You speak from some dam debating team.
> Do you see what I am saying?????

I gather from your statement that you have had personal experience with drug
addiction in someone important to you.  That would certainly make one an
adamant opponent of drug use.  We have also had that experience in my
husband's family.

The question that follows from such experience is whether the current legal
efforts at reducing drug use in society have been the most helpful solution
for the person you care about.  In many cases, the laws, the court system and
the prison system have not addressed nor repaired the problem.  I personally
feel that if the money that is being put into legal solutions was instead
directed into education and treatment, we could make a much greater dent in
societal use of street drugs.  

And we need appropriate treatment.  Research and experience shows that
treatment for drug use is most likely to be successful if a person's soical
system (i.e. family, SOs, etc.) is treated, not just the individual, i.e.
drug treamment is most effective as family therapy.  Also, we need to help
people find appropriate employment and possibly alternative "addications" (in
many ways AA successes replace alcohol addiction with AA addiction - an
obviously much more functional addiction).  

We could also put some of that money into additional research towards
understanding what is going on in the brains of people who are especially
susceptible to addiction.  Some people seem to truly NEED an addiction of any
sort for some reason we don't understand.  For many it appears to be a
question of brain chemistry.  If science can work that out, they can maybe
treat the chemical imbalance and thus help many people.

Just possibly would early, affordable and thorough treament have done more
for your loved one than legal system did?

> Bullshit   pure bullshit.......  No one needs to have drugs to make their
> life livable......   If you think a person does,,,,, its about looking into
> your own life and what is important.

consider that statement seriously, Harv.  I don't know about you, but I truly
do need drugs to make my life livable.  They just happen to be "legal" drugs,
but my live would be one day after another of being curled up on the
loveseat, whimpering my way through the day without them.  

There is a lot of research out there on marijuana and pain that supports the
claims of people who use marijuana medically.  The research also shows that
other delivery methods of THC do not work as well.  Research continues
regarding delivery methods and other possible elements in marijuana that help
in alleviating pain and nausea.  The way science goes, I think they will work
it out eventually.  Until then, though, I will not deny it to those who truly
need it.  And it will be best of legal growing is permitted to a few groups
so the folks who need medical marijuana will not have to risk other
complications from the production methods of those who are growing it
strictly for street sales.  

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Nann
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Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare

Harvey R. Stone - 30 Nov 2004 15:51 GMT
>> That is very much your opinion and not the real world for people that are
>> trying to straighten out their young people in their family.    I speak
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> adamant opponent of drug use.  We have also had that experience in my
> husband's family.

Yes,   my oldest daughter who was away at collage,,, then in her first
marrage, with alcohol in her third marrage.   Pro help started to turn this
around and she has done the rest.   None of that now an is doing well.   I
can take credit for none of it.   Sometimes all we can do is be consistant
and be there when needed and she did the rest.

> The question that follows from such experience is whether the current
> legal
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> in
> societal use of street drugs.

The real problem about talking about this is that there are different kinds
of drug use and they always get blended a discussion.

>> Bullshit   pure bullshit.......  No one needs to have drugs to make their
>> life livable......   If you think a person does,,,,, its about looking
>> into
>> your own life and what is important.
>
> consider that statement seriously, Harv.

I am not talking about drugs for medical use.

I don't know about you, but I truly
> do need drugs to make my life livable.  They just happen to be "legal"
> drugs,
> but my live would be one day after another of being curled up on the
> loveseat, whimpering my way through the day without them.

Of coarse you do and there is nothing wrong with that in anyones mind.

> There is a lot of research out there on marijuana and pain that supports
> the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> truly
> need it.

I agree and have said so.

And it will be best of legal growing is permitted to a few groups
> so the folks who need medical marijuana will not have to risk other
> complications from the production methods of those who are growing it
> strictly for street sales.
> > Nann

I am fully aware of what you are talking about and have been there with far
too many people living and dieing with cancer and I have said that anything
that makes that process better for people going through it,,,, should be
done.
Nann Bell - 01 Dec 2004 14:31 GMT
> Yes,   my oldest daughter who was away at collage,,, then in her first
> marrage, with alcohol in her third marrage.   Pro help started to turn this
> around and she has done the rest.   None of that now an is doing well.   I
> can take credit for none of it.   Sometimes all we can do is be consistant
> and be there when needed and she did the rest.

You did all that anyone can do when a loved one is addicted to anything.  The
only person who can change the situation is the individual her/himself.  You
helped that happen and that's one way your love for her shows.  
Congratulations to her for turning things around.  It is a remarkably
difficult thing to do.

> The real problem about talking about this is that there are different kinds
> of drug use and they always get blended a discussion.

How true.  I think in my response I didn't always realize when you were
speaking about recreational use and when you were speaking of medical use.

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Nann
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Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare

Nathan Engle - 30 Nov 2004 14:36 GMT
> > Unfortunately the principal way that MJ can "ruin a young
> > person's life" is for them to be arrested because of it.
> > Its chemical impact is far less than the legal impact -
> > ergo our laws do little but make the situation worse.

> I do not agree with you at all,,,,, in any way.    You can walk your mind
> around todays laws and make it right within yourself...... but that does not
> mean the law has not been broken,,, it does not mean that there is not a
> good reason for the law being there.

I'm not opposed to the idea of drug law - but what I WOULD
like to see is a rational scale for the penalties.

Consider: I favor the legal enforcement of handicapped parking
places.  But I would be 100% AGAINST throwing violators in
jail, or confiscating their houses and cars - BOTH of which
we do vs drug offenders.  Having penalties that are too harsh
would make a handicapped parking law very unpopular, in
jeopardy of being overturned.

Because drug laws are a "this is for your own good" proposition,
it behooves us to ensure that the penalties really ARE for the
offender's own good, and affordable for everyone else too.  We
need to ensure that court-ordered rehab is going to be a first
line of defense option available to EVERY convicted drug offender,
not just those whose daddies happen to be governor of Florida.

> > The number of young people's lives that have been ruined
> > by MJ is orders of magnitude less than the number that
> > have been ruined by our laws.

> That is very much your opinion and not the real world for people that are
> trying to straighten out their young people in their family.

Actually it's supportable by data from the ONDCP, the DEA,
and the Department of Justice.  Government-appointed advisory
boards as far back as the Nixon administration have suggested
legalizing pot.

>    I speak from
> experience....   You speak from some dam debating team.
> Do you see what I am saying?????

I see that we have different life experience.  Personally I
have known a LOT of pot heads.  I have not seen ANY whose
lives were ruined by pot.  Plenty from other things, like
alcohol and the state of the economy.

If there is some hidden human carnage of marijuana then it
must be hidden VERY well.

> > Adjust the penalties for drug use so that they're within
> > the limits that a concerned family member would consider
> > reasonable as a wake-up call, and US drug enforcement
> > could have every single mother in America on board as
> > a detective.

> Bullshit   pure bullshit.......  No one needs to have drugs to make their
> life livable......  

*I* do, Harv.  And I know many other people whose lives are
only tolerable because of the drugs *they* use as medicines.

As far as I'm concerned the entire drug debate is framed in
misleading terms.  The most important thing isn't whether
a person "uses drugs" or even whether their drugs are
legal or illegal.  Side effects of legal medications kill
about 5 times as many people each year as all of the illegal
ones combined, so legal vs illegal isn't the critical
distinction.  Instead the important factor is whether
the drugs people take are treated with caution.

From my standpoint a typical medical MJ patient IS treating
the drug with the caution due to a medicine, and on that
basis I just don't see the problem.  The last thing I EVER
want to see is a precedent for medicines being taken away
from everybody else just because a subset of the population
abuse them.

> If you think a person does,,,,, its about looking into
> your own life and what is important.

Clearly we have differing opinions on this question.  We
have researchers where I work who study MJ's effects and
everything I hear from them leads me to the conclusion
that our society over-reacts to it.

Consider: We don't track down pot heads by following the
swathe of destruction they leave in their wake.  All we
do is follow the twinkie wrappers.  And our jails are
disgracefully over-crowded already.  Just how dangerous
ARE these people anyway that federal law should stipulate
that a single joint is punishable by 6 months in prison
(for a first offense yet)?

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Nathan Engle               Computer Support, IUB Psych Dept
nengle@indiana.edu         http://mypage.iu.edu/~nengle
"Some Assembly Required"

Kenny - 03 Dec 2004 05:51 GMT
Getting in on this kind of late but I have to say I agree totally with
Nathan. Our drug laws as they are now really suck. A problem that
should be medical actually turns out to be legal. Why we think like
this I will never understand. MJ is probably the worst drug to make
illegal I have ever known of. Read the history of the hemp plant. Find
out just who was behind making it illegal and how they proffered by
it. You would be surprised The sad thing is most people will not do
that and therefore remain ignorant to it. That's by there choice. MJ
has never killed anybody for over using it. Many other drugs that are
legal and available over the counter have killed. To make MJ illegal
to anyone who seriously needs it is the sin here. A great many people
will be judged on judgement day because of their ignorant  opinons
about this misinformation on MJ. Let's just make it a medical problem
and take the law out of it. To keep this out of the hands of people
that need is not only just mean but will be construed as a sin in my
opinion. This is something that God gave us for a reason. Did you know
that at one time it was actually illigal for any land owner in the U.
S. A. not to grow hemp/MJ? God help us.

~Kenny

>> > I don't believe in changing the legal status of very many
>> > drugs, but in the case of MJ it's abundantly clear that
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
>could have every single mother in America on board as
>a detective.
johnie - 29 Nov 2004 22:29 GMT
> THE MOST IMPORTANT THING maybe,,,,,, Who is making the
> profit from the sale...   Is the person buying supporting the worst kind of
> criminals????   Change that and I might listen to what you have to say.
> Harv

The only way to change that..."what is now happening" is to decriminalize,
so that criminals will no longer be able to profit from the sale of
cannabis.

Some of us understand this lesson from the disaster 'prohibition'
created. William F. Buckley, one of the great conservatives of this
century has been telling us this for 25 years.

And we do need to change what is now happening. More young people are
using cannabis than at any other time. More drug lords are profiting
than at any other time in our history.

We lost the "drug war". How many more decades do we have to flush
billions of dollars down the toilet in worthless irradication programs.
If we would commit to spending some of that money properly on EDUCATION
we could change the way this next generation thinks about drugs.

Other countries with far fewer resources have done it. Why not us?

Im off my soapbox. That's all I will say about this one. The work
required to fix the mess we are in appears to be more than any of our
"leaders" will sign on for.

johnie
Thumper - 29 Nov 2004 23:45 GMT
>> I don't believe in changing the legal status of very many
>> drugs, but in the case of MJ it's abundantly clear that
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>criminals????   Change that and I might listen to what you have to say.
>Harv

It is evident that although you may know a lot about arthritis, you
don't know squat about marijuana or it's use.  You have bought the
government's propaganda hook line and sinker.
Thumper
To reply drop XYZ in address
Thumper - 29 Nov 2004 23:38 GMT
>> there are a lot of very ill people who are responsible people and should
>> be afforded the opportunity to help themselves function better with their
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>you.   If we are talking about a way that people can continue to get what
>ruins their life,,,,, I do not agree with it.

Come on Harvey.  Are you as against Alcohol?
Thumper

>Not a large blanket here,,,,, a small amount of people that this will help
>to make their short time on this earth,,,, better.... Go for it.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>> Version: 6.0.802 / Virus Database: 545 - Release Date: 11/26/2004

To reply drop XYZ in address
spodosaurus - 30 Nov 2004 04:05 GMT
> As long as we are talking about terminally ill people,,,,,, I agree with
> you.   If we are talking about a way that people can continue to get what
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> to make their short time on this earth,,,, better.... Go for it.
> Harv

Why should it only be terminally ill people that have access to a
beneficial drug? Why should people with chronic illness be made to
suffer needlessly when there's a chemical out there that is not
controlled by drug companies which helps them?

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I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. To jump to the end
of the story, as a result of this I need a bone marrow transplant. Many
people around the world are waiting for a marrow transplant, too. Please
volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

Sheri - 30 Nov 2004 05:37 GMT
> <snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>
> kate

I agree with you on this one.  I  have a son who is still involved with
drugs and alcohol.  He is 18 and has been kicked out of the house for his
choices.  He blames me for all his problems since I am a single mother.  His
dad chose to not be around.  He believes I should have saved him from
himself.  I tried.  I tried the methods you did Kate,  and I tried taking
what was left of the alcohol out of the house.  He just had "friends" buy
him alcohol, cigarettes and drugs.  When I was on Vioxx, he stole them out
of my lock box (he broke the lock) so he could try them thinking they were
good pain pills.  When the doctor put me on Mobic, he stole those too.
There was no where safe in the house, the last week he was here, I had to
leave everything locked up in my bosses desk or he would come to my work and
steal it.  He is the only one who can save him from himself.

Then there are the folks who learn how to save themselves.  I hope my son
becomes one of those, but at this point, I wouldn't take any bets on it.
Those who want to do illegal substances or abuse any type of legal ones will
always find a way to get them if they want them.  It doesn't matter to some
how they get it.  I think that is the major problem.

I also have 2 younger sons.  Neither one of them wants to do drugs or
alcohol.  They saw what their big brother did and decided it wasn't for
them.  I hope they keep that attitude!

Sheri
Nann Bell - 30 Nov 2004 14:32 GMT
> I also have 2 younger sons.  Neither one of them wants to do drugs or
> alcohol.  They saw what their big brother did and decided it wasn't for
> them.  I hope they keep that attitude!
>
> Sheri

I hope so, too, Sheri!  What a time you have had.  Some people seem to be
particularly susceptible to addications of one type or another.  Hopefully,
science will one day figure out what is going on in the brains of these
people and will be able to treat it from that angle.

How wise of you to realize that only he can save himself.  If he doesn't want
a change, there will never be one, no matter what you do.  It must be so
painful to watch as a parent, though.

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Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare

Harvey R. Stone - 30 Nov 2004 14:35 GMT
>> some courts know that congress can't legislate people into having good
>> character, good personality traits and into personal responsibility for
>> one's self.  i wish those people who don't know that, would learn it.

Well said,,,, Young people are very much individuals with their own likes
and dislikes and sometimes must learn lifes lessons the hard way.

>> our oldest son came into our lives with a drug and alcohol problem when
>> he was 12.  frankly, it was hell to deal with, for him, as well as for us
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>> himself and his being able to blame others for not doing that, instead of
>> accepting his responsibility for his own actions.

I do not think it can be said any better.   He will never know the pain that
you have lived with and he may never understand the things you have had to
do and why.   The hard part is not letting this carry over with the younger
kids.  How the older brother is not their fault.

>> there are a lot of very ill people who are responsible people and should
>> be afforded the opportunity to help themselves function better with their
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>
>> kate

Well said.   The seriously ill need what every help they can get.

> I agree with you on this one.  I  have a son who is still involved with
> drugs and alcohol.  He is 18 and has been kicked out of the house for his
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> leave everything locked up in my bosses desk or he would come to my work
> and steal it.  He is the only one who can save him from himself.

Well said and well done.  What I have said above applies here too.

> Then there are the folks who learn how to save themselves.  I hope my son
> becomes one of those, but at this point, I wouldn't take any bets on it.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Sheri

Life's lessons some times have to be learned the hard way.   As your younger
boys become men,
thank the older young man for showing them how not to live.  I know it does
not help you now but there are sooo many mothers that are going through what
you have and we can only hope that they handle it as well as you have.
Harv
d'huit - 30 Nov 2004 18:27 GMT
is it just me?  i'm totally and utterly confused.  my brain hurts.  it feels
like these same comments of mine elicited a waaaay different response and
attitude from you, the first time.  are there two different harv's on asa?
kate

>>> some courts know that congress can't legislate people into having good
>>> character, good personality traits and into personal responsibility for
[quoted text clipped - 78 lines]
> you have.
> Harv
Harvey R. Stone - 30 Nov 2004 22:17 GMT
> is it just me?  i'm totally and utterly confused.  my brain hurts.  it
> feels like these same comments of mine elicited a waaaay different
> response and attitude from you, the first time.  are there two different
> harv's on asa?
> kate

No,,, there is just one.   These are complicated problems and it is not
going to get solved until steps are taken to make MJ available from
respected sources and for Medical problems.  You will see my bad side when
it involves young people trying to improve what there day brings with drugs
and MJ is a drug and people do get hung up on it.   I have battled it with
my grandson and his mother with my grandson ending up getting a GED and my
oldest daughter dropping out of collage.   She has an IQ that is wayyy up
there,,,, which was wasted in collage with several types of drugs.
     I will give you a compliment.  I find it just as hard to argue with
you as I did with her.   I do not remember ever winning an argument but in
later years,,,, she has admitted that I was right about many things and she
has come home three different times.  To get herself together and off she
goes again on a new start and she always works herself up in whatever
company she works for.  The grandson is back living with her and is going to
the UNiv. of Houston after seeing what it is like living on own and working
a dead end job.    LOLOL You talk about MJ,,,, he had it growing under
lights to cut his costs down... :-)   OK,,ok , I will shut up now.
Harv
d'huit - 01 Dec 2004 17:19 GMT
>> is it just me?  i'm totally and utterly confused.  my brain hurts.  it
>> feels like these same comments of mine elicited a waaaay different
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> going to get solved until steps are taken to make MJ available from
> respected sources and for Medical problems.

****i agree.

You will see my bad side when
> it involves young people trying to improve what there day brings with
> drugs and MJ is a drug and people do get hung up on it.

****yeppers and they do that kind of thing with many other things, too.

I have battled it with
> my grandson and his mother with my grandson ending up getting a GED and my
> oldest daughter dropping out of collage.   She has an IQ that is wayyy up
> there,,,, which was wasted in collage with several types of drugs.

****i'm sorry you had to got through that, harv.  i know it is not a fun
situation to have to deal with, to put it mildly.  our son, who was also
bright, dropped out at 16 and later (age 19), went back and got his GED and
a few college credits, just before entering the airforce.   he now has a
master's degree, because he decided he wanted it (after he became a stock
broker) when he decided to go into the ministry.

>      I will give you a compliment.  I find it just as hard to argue with
> you as I did with her.   I do not remember ever winning an argument but in
> later years,,,, she has admitted that I was right about many things

****thank you for your compliment.  i'm certain you were right about many
things and i'm glad your daughter recognized that and let you know your
wisdom was acknowledged by her.  these kinds of discussions aren't about my
winning or being right, harv.  for me, it's about trying to help others to
see or understand a little bit more than it appears they do (and
appearances, as well as, perceptions can be deceiving).

and she
> has come home three different times.  To get herself together and off she
> goes again on a new start and she always works herself up in whatever
> company she works for.  The grandson is back living with her and is going
> to the UNiv. of Houston after seeing what it is like living on own and
> working a dead end job.

****i think it takes a bit longer for many young adults, who have to
overcome these kinds of influences on their lives, to find their way back to
themselves.  it takes a lot of love and support for them to be able to do
that.  you obviously gave a lot of that.

our son had soooo many jobs and career starts