Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Arthritis / December 2004
Medical Marajuana - Supreme Court
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Mary Z - 29 Nov 2004 13:37 GMT Interesting, this case deals with a women with FM and Lupus. -- MZ
Cure or Crime? South Bay medical marijuana users await U.S. Supreme Court ruling. Justices will hear arguments in the case today. By Nick Green Daily Breeze
Before one 43-year-old Lomita resident summons the resolve to perform basic daily tasks like brushing her teeth, she must tackle the debilitating pain that is her constant companion.
So, Shelly, who requested her last name be withheld, takes a muscle relaxant, gingerly stretches for 30 minutes -- and then takes what she calls her medication with names like Super Silver Haze or Morningstar.
Shelly uses marijuana on a doctor's recommendation.
Her medical use of marijuana helps combat lupus, an auto-immune deficiency, and the excruciating pain caused by a muscle and tendon condition known as fibromyalgia that leaves her hobbling and sometimes needing a cane to walk. The afflictions have left the former telephone customer service employee unable to work and on long-term disability.
Marijuana, she says, helps alleviate nausea that can cause her to vomit for hours, muscle spasms that wrack her body and severe migraines that can leave her curled up sobbing in a fetal position in a darkened bedroom.
"Every single thing I do is a pain decision," said Shelly sitting stiffly in apparent discomfort in her living room that is a stone's throw from the Lomita sheriff's station. "But I use pain medication as a last resort. I don't want that groggy feeling you get from pain medication. I want to be able to function.
"People who say you can't have (marijuana) haven't limped in my shoes. I couldn't survive without it."
Under state law, a majority of voters have said Shelly can use medical marijuana, based on the 1996 passage of Proposition 215.
But the federal government says she can't, refuses to recognize state law and insists that marijuana has no accepted medical use.
Today, the U.S. Supreme Court will hear oral arguments in a case that may resolve the conflicting federal and state statutes.
"We want more clarity on this issue," said Richard Meyer, spokesman for the Drug Enforcement Agency in San Francisco. "Never before has a substance become medicine by a popular vote without making that substance go through a rigorous process that the Food and Drug Administration puts all drugs through."
It's the second time in three years the court has addressed the issue.
In 2001, the court ruled against the distribution of medical marijuana, a decision that prompted raids on growing operations.
Ashcroft v. Raich
This time medical marijuana proponents are more optimistic about Ashcroft v. Raich, a suit brought by an Oakland medical marijuana patient.
"This is the ideal case to have before the Supreme Court," said Steve Fox, director of government relations for the nonprofit Marijuana Policy Project, one of the organizations helping pay for the litigation.
"The named plaintiff in the case is a highly sympathetic patient whose medical need for marijuana cannot reasonably be questioned. And there is no evidence at all -- in fact it's pretty much been stipulated by all parties involved -- there was no interstate commerce involved."
That last point is key.
It is the so-called Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution, which covers interstate trade, that the federal government interprets as giving it broad powers to regulate the sale and distribution of medical marijuana.
For decades, the U.S. Supreme Court has approved a gradual expansion of the Commerce Clause, awarding the federal government ever increasing regulatory authority.
But the last two major decisions affecting the Commerce Clause before the conservative-leaning court dating back to 1995 have resulted in the majority ruling against expanding the Commerce Clause -- and in favor of states' rights -- for the first time since 1936.
The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals adopted a similar stance last December, when it ruled that medical marijuana activities do not cross state lines, setting up the latest legal battle.
"People who have studied the law understand there always seems to be a drug policy exception to the Constitution -- when a drug case comes to the Supreme Court suddenly the federal government power seems to be unlimited," Fox said. "So, it would be foolhardy to predict the Supreme Court is going to overrule the 9th Circuit. But, if they are going to be ideologically consistent, it would be possible or perhaps likely to uphold state rights in this circumstance."
A growing consensus
Medical marijuana is not a partisan issue and polls suggest support for medical marijuana is widespread and -- no pun intended -- growing.
Proposition 215 passed when 56 percent of California voters cast ballots in favor of it. Today, an independent poll released earlier this year showed that figure has risen to 74 percent of registered voters.
South Bay Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, R-Huntington Beach, a close Bush administration ally, opposes the federal government stance on the issue.
For the past two years he has co-sponsored an amendment prohibiting the federal government from interfering in state medical marijuana laws. It has failed both times, although Rohrabacher believes if voting were conducted by secret ballot politicians who fear being branded as soft on drugs during a re-election campaign would likely have voted for it.
Rohrabacher, whose youthful dalliances with the drug are well documented, said in part his view was shaped by watching his mother die after an operation led to medical complications he believed may have been alleviated by marijuana.
"A lot of people always suggest that conservatives talk about little government on economic issues, but don't stand up for people on some of these other issues," he said. "I think there is some justification to that criticism.
"I don't believe the federal government should be at the level of government that controls every aspect of our society. I am someone who believes in federalism, just like our founding fathers did and especially criminal justice issues should be local or state (controlled)."
As far as the District Attorney's Office is concerned that's the case with medical marijuana users.
"We follow state law," said spokeswoman Jane Robison. "If they've got a valid doctor's prescription and (the marijuana) is for medical purposes, we don't prosecute."
Meyer, the DEA spokesman, concedes some local jurisdictions do not cooperate with the federal government.
But, while he concedes that THC -- the active ingredient in marijuana -- "may have some therapeutic value," he believes the marijuana lobby is using the seriously ill "to twist their own agenda" of legalizing all illegal drugs.
Some dubious claims
"I've heard reports that say marijuana is a life-saving drug and if (medical marijuana patients) don't smoke marijuana they may very well die for the lack of marijuana," Meyer said. "I know that is false. I know the American Medical Association does not endorse marijuana. In fact, the AMA says marijuana should remain illegal, that marijuana is not a harmless drug and that more research is needed."
But the AMA also believes doctors and patients should not be subject to "criminal sanctions" because "effective patient care requires the free and unfettered exchange of information on treatment alternatives."
Peter Warren, the San Pedro-based spokesman of the California Medical Association, which represents the state's 35,000 physicians, goes further.
The CMA believes that while more studies of marijuana are needed, it certainly isn't as dangerous a drug as painkillers like Demerol that can kill in high enough dosages, he said.
Warren charges that the Bush administration is engaged in the politicizing of medicine and seeks to disrupt the confidentiality of the patient-doctor relationship.
Hesitant to recommend
Many physicians, fearful of legal consequences or the possible loss of their medical license, are hesitant to recommend marijuana to their patients, even as a drug of last resort, where all other alternatives have failed, he said.
"The federal government is engaged in scaring physicians and intimidating them for trying to provide the best care possible for very sick people," Warren said.
"We find it inappropriate for the Justice Department to try and get between doctors and patients or try to scare patients or physicians into talking about this. This isn't a medically based decision, this is a political or criminal law-based decision."
An oncologist who works for one of the two largest cancer clinics in Torrance, but asked not to be identified, said that he has seen it benefit patients, decreasing pain, stimulating appetite, enhancing moods and reducing nausea.
But the cancer specialist said he doesn't recommend it to patients in part because of the conflict between federal and state laws.
"We're not sure if it keeps them from being prosecuted by a federal court," he said. "It's my obligation to prevent any harassment of the patient."
But some physicians, like Dr. William Vicary, the Los Angeles-based psychiatrist who treats Lomita resident Shelly, recommends it to chronically ill patients as a "last resort."
Marijuana can help some seriously ill patients and the federal government knows it, he said, pointing to the legal drug Marinol, a THC synthetic. But many patients, such as Shelly, find that not only is Marinol expensive, it is not as effective as marijuana.
"If the argument is marijuana doesn't do any good, what is the federal government doing approving this medication?" Vicary asked. "The quality of her life would be substantially diminished were she not to have access to medical marijuana."
Indeed, Shelly said she doesn't live day by day.
She cuts her life into 15-minute segments; it's a tactic used by someone whose existence is so overwhelming it can take three days to vacuum her condominium."
"I have the fear that if someone finds out who I am, they'll throw me in jail," she said.
"I'm hoping that more people realize marijuana is not a dangerous drug -- it's just a medication. I'm hoping we get more people with that point of view on the Supreme Court -- and on every court."
Visit my website: http://www.mzuschlag.com
d'huit - 29 Nov 2004 16:35 GMT > Interesting, this case deals with a women with FM and Lupus. -- MZ > [quoted text clipped - 230 lines] > -- it's just a medication. I'm hoping we get more people with that > point of view on the Supreme Court -- and on every court." fingers crossed that the supreme court does the right thing by the people who truly are helped by marijuana.
there are recreational users/addictive personality abusers of prescription drugs, abusers of even common chemicals and common on-the-shelf products, some of which are not even in the pharmacy section of the grocery store. there will always be these kinds of abusers and there always have been. some people believe marijuana is a gateway drug. for an abuser, almost anything can be a gateway drug. does that mean we should ban and stop selling common products and prescription drugs? of course not, and we don't.
some courts know that congress can't legislate people into having good character, good personality traits and into personal responsibility for one's self. i wish those people who don't know that, would learn it.
our oldest son came into our lives with a drug and alcohol problem when he was 12. frankly, it was hell to deal with, for him, as well as for us (which includes our youngest son). it took several years for him to finally turned himself and his life's path in a new and better direction. we knew we didn't have the power to do that for him, though believe me, we wished we did. he had to be the one to make his choices, for good or ill.
we didn't empty our liquor cabinet to protect him from himself (knowing he had a problem, i did score the bottles discretely, to indicate levels and was diligent about checking them). but, believe me, he noticed that the booze in that cabinet was very rarely touched by butch or me and he knew our ground rules made that cabinet off-limits to him. he violated that rule just once. and we put the responsibility for that violation squarely on his shoulders. he knew no excuses would be accepted for violating our rule and his adherence to that rule. he wanted us to lock the liquor cabinet up or get rid of the temptation. we told him, no, and explained that no was because the world he had to live in is full of temptations and that he had to learn how to be responsible for and to himself. no, we didn't make it easier for him. we didn't because that would have set a pattern of his expecting others to protect him from himself and his being able to blame others for not doing that, instead of accepting his responsibility for his own actions.
there are a lot of very ill people who are responsible people and should be afforded the opportunity to help themselves function better with their diseases. if that means legalizing marijuana, regulating it and the growing of it, and also dispensing it like prescription drugs, then, i say do it. it is morally wrong to withhold something that has been proven to help seriously ill people and allow them to continue to suffer, just because somebody "wants us to lock up the liquor cabinet".
kate
Harvey R. Stone - 29 Nov 2004 18:49 GMT > there are a lot of very ill people who are responsible people and should > be afforded the opportunity to help themselves function better with their [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > kate As long as we are talking about terminally ill people,,,,,, I agree with you. If we are talking about a way that people can continue to get what ruins their life,,,,, I do not agree with it.
Not a large blanket here,,,,, a small amount of people that this will help to make their short time on this earth,,,, better.... Go for it. Harv
> --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.802 / Virus Database: 545 - Release Date: 11/26/2004 d'huit - 29 Nov 2004 19:57 GMT >> there are a lot of very ill people who are responsible people and should >> be afforded the opportunity to help themselves function better with their [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > As long as we are talking about terminally ill people,,,,,, I agree with > you. uhhhh, harv, there was no mention that the woman in the supreme court case was terminal. (guess you and i must agree to disagree.) there are many other non-terminal illnesses that marijuana helps ease the symptoms of, ie . . . lots of cancer patients on chemotherapy (who suffer terribly from their treatments), who are not terminal, would benefit from maijuana. if marijuna were legal, should we go ahead and allow those people to continue unnecessarily suffer, because they are not dying? that's like arbitrarily deciding that RA patients, who are not terminal, should not get biologics or narcotic painkillers or drugs that were designed for one thing and used for another like mtx.
If we are talking about a way that people can continue to get what
> ruins their life,,,,, I do not agree with it. obviously, having had a son who was a drug abuser and is no longer one, i was not suggesting we willy-nilly give abusers drugs, guy. besides which, people who make the choice, to get things that ruin their lives, are going to continue to get them, exactly the way they get them right now, harv. that will not change. as they say, "locks are made for honest people." legislative "locks" are no different, harv. but these kinds of legislative "locks" will lock out honest and very ill people from getting something might help them, not the dishonest people who will get them anyhow.
> Not a large blanket here,,,,, a small amount of people that this will help > to make their short time on this earth,,,, better.... Go for it. hypothetically, what if they discovered that marijuana helped RA patients, better than the current and available drug protocols for RA---would that change your mind about who gets it? would you take marijuana, under medical supervision, in that event? and why not? haven't you taken legally prescribed narcotics before?
do you really believe that RA patients don't have the opportunity to ruin their lives, if they so chose to, with many of the drugs they take that are narcotics?
just look at russ limbaugh and how he turned his prescriptions for his illness into a potentially life ruining situation. it's a matter of character and a sense of personal responsibility that prevents people from going out and doing the same thing russ limbaugh did, harv. the law didn't prevent him from doing what he did.
kate
> Harv
>> --- >> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >> Version: 6.0.802 / Virus Database: 545 - Release Date: 11/26/2004 Harvey R. Stone - 29 Nov 2004 20:58 GMT >> As long as we are talking about terminally ill people,,,,,, I agree with >> you. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > marijuna were legal, should we go ahead and allow those people to continue > unnecessarily suffer, because they are not dying? How many do you know? They are close to it and what they are having done means they in need of whatever they can get to make it easier. The medicine or procedures is killing part of their body. They fall into whatever it takes to make it better.
that's like arbitrarily
> deciding that RA patients, who are not terminal, should not get biologics > or narcotic painkillers or drugs that were designed for one thing and > used for another like mtx. JMO,,,,, they are not in this class of people even Kitty.
> If we are talking about a way that people can continue to get what >> ruins their life,,,,, I do not agree with it. What the hell would you not agree with??? You surely know someone that has had their life ruined with a start on Mary Jane.
> obviously, having had a son who was a drug abuser and is no longer one, i > was not suggesting we willy-nilly give abusers drugs, guy. besides which, > people who make the choice, to get things that ruin their lives, are going > to continue to get them, exactly the way they get them right now, harv. Yes,,, an unlike people like you,,, I am not going to do or support anything that will further what is taking place.
> that will not change. as they say, "locks are made for honest people." > legislative "locks" are no different, harv. If that were true we would have no laws and no people in politics that supported laws.... Aaah well maybe one party support the lack of laws.
but these kinds of legislative
> "locks" will lock out honest and very ill people from getting something > might help them, not the dishonest people who will get them anyhow. Wayyy too general a statement but understandable.
>> Not a large blanket here,,,,, a small amount of people that this will >> help to make their short time on this earth,,,, better.... Go for it. > > hypothetically, what if they discovered that marijuana helped RA patients, > better than the current and available drug protocols for RA---would that > change your mind about who gets it? NO,,,,, it might pat you on the back but not OK in my world.
would you take marijuana, under medical
> supervision, in that event? and why not? haven't you taken legally > prescribed narcotics before? I know you think everyone has dipped into the world of drugs and stimulants,,,,, but it is not in the real world of people that run this country or our businesses and no I have not.
> do you really believe that RA patients don't have the opportunity to ruin > their lives, if they so chose to, with many of the drugs they take that > are narcotics? You really need to rethink what you have said above in a newsgroup for the support of people with Arthritis. The mental support that is constructive is not the picture you have drawn above.
> just look at russ limbaugh and how he turned his prescriptions for his > illness into a potentially life ruining situation. it's a matter of > character and a sense of personal responsibility that prevents people from > going out and doing the same thing russ limbaugh did, harv. That is correct and it is the cross he must carry. It does not mean it is OK for anyone else. It does not mean that I should support anything that would make it easier for anyone else to do THE SAME THING.
the law didn't
> prevent him from doing what he did. > > kate Because people break the law does not mean that we should do away with the law that is an effort to hold society together..... Please go back and look at what you support and the reasons why and it might give you some answers with your son. Harv
d'huit - 29 Nov 2004 22:42 GMT >>> harv said-- As long as we are talking about terminally ill people,,,,,, >>> I agree with you. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> go ahead and allow those people to continue unnecessarily suffer, because >> they are not dying? harv said--- How many do you know? They are close to it and what they are having done
> means they in need of whatever they can get to make it easier. > The medicine or procedures is killing part of their body. They fall > into whatever it takes to make it better. *****kate said---harv, i've known lots of people with cancer, more than i can list here. my own mother is a cancer survivor, three uncles and an aunt died of cancer, a cousin in her twenties died of cancer. one uncle has lived with cancer/survived for the past ten years. my best friend and butch's best friend died of cancer. my nephew's wife survived cancer, my cousin's wife survived cancer. my neighbor survived a double radical mastectomy, some 15 years ago. all of them underwent chemo, except my mother (who's been cancer-free since the early 1960s). and it is true that many more who i've known have not survived. soooooo, from what you've said above, all patients on chemo can have legalized mj?
>kate said--- that's like arbitrarily >> deciding that RA patients, who are not terminal, should not get biologics >> or narcotic painkillers or drugs that were designed for one thing and >> used for another like mtx. > >harv said--- JMO,,,,, they are not in this class of people even Kitty. ******kate said---you're entitled to your opinion, guy.
>>harv said--- If we are talking about a way that people can continue to get >>what >>> ruins their life,,,,, I do not agree with it. > > harv said---What the hell would you not agree with??? You surely know > someone that has had their life ruined with a start on Mary Jane. ****kate said---harv, you wrote that-what you are commenting upon, not me. i wish nobody would want or get addicted to anything that ruins their lives.
>>kate said---- obviously, having had a son who was a drug abuser and is no >>longer one, i was not suggesting we willy-nilly give abusers drugs, guy. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > harv said----Yes,,, an unlike people like you,,, I am not going to do or > support anything that will further what is taking place. *****kate said---soooo, you don't support booze or beer or wine, then, either, cuz there are lots of alcoholics with ruined lives. it validly could be said that beer or wine is a gateway into alcoholism, too. alcoholics generally start out with what is cheapest, beer or wine.
>>kate said--- that will not change. as they say, "locks are made for >>honest people." legislative "locks" are no different, harv. > >harv said---- If that were true we would have no laws and no people in >politics that supported laws.... Aaah well maybe one party support the >lack of laws. ****kate said---it is true that locks are "supposed" to protect honest people, but dishonest people kick doors in. grow up, harv. rebumblingcans and democraps are both made up of human beings. human beings are not perfect in either party. some are more flawed than others, some more moral than others, some more legalistic than others, some more spiritual/religious than others--in both parties. rebumblingcans do NOT have a corner on morality nor religion. god is NOT on the side of rebumblingcans, just because they believe they have the best ideas and opinions nor because they are more self-righteous and judgmental. while the bible may be infallible to christians, the christians/people reading it and interpretting it and applying it, are not infallible.
>kate said--- but these kinds of legislative >> "locks" will lock out honest and very ill people from getting something >> might help them, not the dishonest people who will get them anyhow.
>harv said--- Wayyy too general a statement but understandable. ****kate said ---you don't understand the nature of the beast, harv. you can't protect people from themselves, if they don't want to be protected from themselves.
>>>harv said--- Not a large blanket here,,,,, a small amount of people that >>>this will help to make their short time on this earth,,,, better.... Go [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >harv said--- NO,,,,, it might pat you on the back but not OK in my world. ****kate said--- no pat on my back, harv.
>kate said--- would you take marijuana, under medical >> supervision, in that event? and why not? haven't you taken legally [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >and stimulants,,,,, but it is not in the real world of people that run this >country or our businesses and no I have not. ****kate said---oh, forgive me for assuming you have taken painkillers, harv. that was presumptuous of me.
>> kate said----do you really believe that RA patients don't have the >> opportunity to ruin their lives, if they so chose to, with many of the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > newsgroup for the support of people with Arthritis. The mental support > that is constructive is not the picture you have drawn above. *****kate said --- you misunderstood me, harv. people on asa don't choose to ruin their lives, because that's not what they are about and these people have great quality of character. but, IF somebody decided to ruin his or her with drugs, s/he can find a way, especially if they can create an excuse for it out of a real illness. and a lot of people have done exactly that.
>>kate said--- just look at russ limbaugh and how he turned his >>prescriptions for his illness into a potentially life ruining situation. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > harv said--- That is correct and it is the cross he must carry. It does > not mean it is OK for anyone else. *****kate said----yes, it is his responsibility. and it is not ok for anybody to model themselves after his behavior, because it is unacceptable behavior and he should go to jail for it.
harv said----It does not mean that I should support anything that
> would make it easier for anyone else to do THE SAME THING. *****kate said--- for pete's sake, harv, addicts/people are addicted to prescriptive drugs, alcohol, dieting, excercise, food, thrill-seeking, gambling, coffee and on and on and on. it has nothing to do with our making anything easier for them to do the same thing as rush limbaugh. it has everything to do with their addictive personalities and their character deficits. you don't have to make it easier for them, because whether you do or not doesn't matter---they'll do it anyhow.
>kate said--- the law didn't >> prevent him from doing what he did. >> > harv said---- Because people break the law does not mean that we should > do away with the law that is an effort to hold society together..... *****kate said----there are good laws, that last the test of time. and there are bad laws, that wind up modified or repealed. marijuana is a drug, morphene is a drug. one is illegal for medicinal purposes and one is legal for medicinal purposes. you don't prescribe morphene for a cold, neither would you prescribe marijuana for a hang nail, if it were legal.
harv said----Please go back and
> look at what you support and the reasons why and it might give you some > answers with your son. ****kate said---you are WAAAAY, WAAAAAAY outta line, here, BUDDY! and you better know it! if i wanted to be really nasty about what you just said about me and my son, i could make some very devastating comments about your daughter, but i won't. suffice it to say, our son was raised for 12 years by his birth mother and his step father who were not butch and me. he came to butch and me with his drug and alcohol abuse problems, after his step father died and his birth mother couldn't handle him. by the time he first entered the air force and was in the gulf war, he had a pretty damn good handle on his life. today he is a baptist minister, husband and father of 5 boys. and i am damn proud of how he turned himself around. i give him all the credit, even though it was damn hard work helping him do that. and you, mister, owe me an apology for being a judgmental a.shole about me and my family!
kate
> Harv Harvey R. Stone - 30 Nov 2004 04:56 GMT "d'huit"
I have read what you have had to say and it was well done in a wordy kind of way. When you apply it to life,,, it may not survive. It works for you and that is important to you and yours but do not apply it to the rest of the world,,,, some of us do not think the way you do, or live the way you do,,,, and guess what,,, it is enough to elect a president and still enough to support our legal system,,, constitution,,,ect,,,ect enough said and you do understand what I have said. You and I can live with what we believe and how it is applied to life..... Results are what counts and what our young become,,,, is what counts..... You have not been updated on mine and I have not been updated on yours but we know and we live with it. Just like very one else. My last post on this thread sooooooooo run you mouth at will. Changes nothing. Harv
Thumper - 29 Nov 2004 23:40 GMT >>> As long as we are talking about terminally ill people,,,,,, I agree with >>> you. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >The medicine or procedures is killing part of their body. They fall into >whatever it takes to make it better. The point is that it should be up to the patient and doctor, not the federal government. Doctors prescribe thousands of medications that are more harmful and habit forming than Marijuana. Thumper
> that's like arbitrarily >> deciding that RA patients, who are not terminal, should not get biologics [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] >answers with your son. >Harv To reply drop XYZ in address
Nann Bell - 30 Nov 2004 04:15 GMT > The point is that it should be up to the patient and doctor, not the > federal government. Doctors prescribe thousands of medications that > are more harmful and habit forming than Marijuana. > Thumper That's what it's all about for me. I do believe it is possible for marijuana to be a legitimate medication and not just for pain. A former boyfriend of mine had stomach problems from an exposure to Agent Orange in Vietnam. Whe his stomach started churning, marijuana calmed it better than anything els and allowed him to continue doing things rather than curling up from discomfort.
Like ANY drug, it can be *abused* and it can be *used*. I really think the fed's money and energy to combat the street drug problem could be put to better use than fighting the states that choose to allow strictly limited medical marijuana use.
 Signature Nann remove the Gator cheer to email me Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare
Janet R - 30 Nov 2004 05:28 GMT I have nausea due to Lupus nearly everyday, esp. at night. Rx pills actually make it worse...my stomach is already upset, adding pills either sets it on fire or puts me to sleep.
Let me see...I getting to where I don't like eating, but if there is something that can make a few days tolerable I might just give it a try. I don't drink, steal, smoke, am a faithful wife and hopefully a good mom....I doubt a substance that will alleviate my nausea will change that. If I wanted to be a junkie I have a basket of Rx I take throughout the day that I could abuse...but I don't.
Its priorities....My family is my priorities. My crafts and art is a priority. My friends depend on my and vice versa. I have better things to do than become a junkie.
But one day....maybe just one day....without nausea would be nice.
Janet R
|> The point is that it should be up to the patient and doctor, not the | > federal government. Doctors prescribe thousands of medications that [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] | better use than fighting the states that choose to allow strictly limited | medical marijuana use. Kelly Cobb - 30 Nov 2004 06:16 GMT > I have nausea due to Lupus nearly everyday, esp. at night. Rx pills > actually make it worse...my stomach is already upset, adding pills [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Janet R ((((Janet))))
Interestingly, or not, pot *makes* me nauseous. I always knew I was the oddball.lol
What works for some doesn't work for others. When you find something that works, you should be able to have access to it, as with any other medicine, without guilt.
Here in Oregon it's still legal to grow enough for personal use, if you are registered with the state as a person who needs it for treatment of chronic pain, etc. The problem arises when the person who needs it is unable to produce their own, say because of paralysis, etc.
Anyway, I hope you find a medicine that works and that you get many more than one day without nausea.
Hugs, Kelly C.
Janet R - 30 Nov 2004 06:26 GMT Thanks Kelly....I have never tried it, so I have no idea how it may effect me.
Surely if this is legalized they will come up with a different delivery method. Many folks simply cannot smoke. I do not have enough lung capacity to play with these days...LOL
Janet R
| > I have nausea due to Lupus nearly everyday, esp. at night. Rx pills | > actually make it worse...my stomach is already upset, adding pills [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] | Hugs, | Kelly C. Kelly Cobb - 30 Nov 2004 14:49 GMT > Thanks Kelly....I have never tried it, so I have no idea how it may > effect me. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Janet R Janet, check your email.
Kelly C.;o)
Kelly Cobb - 30 Nov 2004 15:05 GMT Nevermind, couldn't unmunge your addy properly. Send me an email and I'll send you what I've found.
Kelly C.;o)
trey rules - 01 Dec 2004 06:52 GMT >any folks simply cannot smoke. I do not have >enough lung capacity to play with these days...LOL most of the people who use it here medicinally in oregon vaporize it which isnt smoking it. im glad i live in a state which allows it. im afraid of what's going to happen when the supreme court turns it down, cuz they most likely will. its a conservative majority over there.
marnie
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Nann Bell - 01 Dec 2004 14:30 GMT > most of the people who use it here medicinally in oregon vaporize it which > isnt > smoking it. im glad i live in a state which allows it. what is vaporizing as opposed to smoking? I'm curious, though I don't expect to ever be using it. I know from past daliances that smoking pot is brutal on my sinuses so I'd have to be in severe discomfort with no other options to even consider it.
im afraid of what's
> going to happen when the supreme court turns it down, cuz they most likely > will. its a conservative majority over there. sometimes the courts really surprise you though. Legal minds see these questions differently from the general public. It will probably be a strict interpretation of state vs. federal law, when the feds can pre-empt the states. It will be interesting from a legal viewpoint.
In fact I find it interesting from a political angle now. Firstly, the state vs. federal control has existed since the dawn of the nation (remember the Articles of Confederation?) And states rights, over federal control, was the original issue spurring the Civil War. The abolition of slavery was the great good that developed from the Civil War, but it also began the swing towards greater federal control over state actions.
Meanwhile, the Republican party historically was the one that preached the government should stay out of people's lives and strongly opposed "big government". Feds AND states should impose the absolute minimum of government necessary on the individual. Feds also should stay out of state actions. That has seen a real shift as exemplified by this legal action. It's not the Republican party of my youth. All things evolve. This is what so fascinates me about history.
 Signature Nann remove the Gator cheer to email me Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare
Harvey R. Stone - 30 Nov 2004 14:15 GMT I have better things to do than become a junkie. But one day....maybe just one day....without nausea would be nice.
> Janet R Taking something and I have no idea what does not make you a junkie. IMO you are being a little too hard on yourself. I have a friend that was like that most days and he had something wrong with his inner ear causing him to be dizzy a little. When the doctor fixed that, no more upset stomachs. Harv Ps I am sure your doctors know how you feel right???
Janet R - 30 Nov 2004 15:40 GMT Hi Harv,
Yeah they know...I go to a Gastro doc...have had all the test and tried all the pills. It is something that happens to some folks with Lupus and I have had it for a long time -- 25 years now. I have finally just switched to Tums. They are the only thing that actually do a little something without making it worse.
I have phenegran for really bad days in a salve form that absorbs on your wrist. You rub it on the inside of your wrist and it take about 20 mins to work. It has to compounded at this old drug store on this side of town. Of course I am asleep in no time....and I dont metabolize it correctly so I am hung-over off and on for a couple of days. So I reserve its use.
But hey...I woke this morning and a BEAUTIFUL Cardinal was on my bench near my pond eating seeds. I love it when God sends me visitors! I tried to take his picture, but the rain messed up the focus. He was the color of poinsettias. My dog even left him alone.
You know Harv....I've had precarious health for a long time, since I was 12. When I was younger I was told "it was in my head"...they didn't even do bloodwork! But during that time I learned to deal with (insert whatever word fits here). I guess nausea is a little thing in the bigger scheme of things, but after 2 solid years of it and break would be nice. Sometimes we see a little hope in unconventional means and just wonder if it might work. To be totally honest, I don't think I could use MJ till much more research was done....but I couldn't refuse someone else some comfort they desperately need. When we feel better we can enjoy our families and friends.
Maybe those who are more open-minded or willing to chance it will lead the way to a new treatment for us one day. You don't have to agree with it (and I'm not sure I do entirely)....but just flip the coin over and look at the other side.
Stepping off the soapbox, Janet
| I have better things to do than become a junkie. But one day....maybe | just one day....without nausea would be nice. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] | Harv | Ps I am sure your doctors know how you feel right??? Harvey R. Stone - 30 Nov 2004 18:02 GMT > Hi Harv, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > finally just switched to Tums. They are the only thing that actually > do a little something without making it worse. I had about of acide reflux when I was taking Arava for my RA. I have had two friends that had Lupus in my life. I do not remember either one have a upset stomach problem. I wonder what the connection is???
> I have phenegran for really bad days in a salve form that absorbs on > your wrist. You rub it on the inside of your wrist and it take about [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > But hey...I woke this morning and a BEAUTIFUL Cardinal was on my bench > near my pond eating seeds. I love it when God sends me visitors! Oh my,,, that reminds me, I have to go feed our fish. I have two fish ponds,,, small and have them connected with a spillway, one to the other and a filter pumping water up into the other one. I sit many a day and watch squirrels in our feeder and it makes all the worlds troubles go away
> I tried to take his picture, but the rain messed up the focus. He was > the color of poinsettias. My dog even left him alone. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Stepping off the soapbox, > Janet Well said and a good look at your world. I will let people that are far more informed than I decide what would be the best thing to do and our drug laws are a complete failure but it is the law and should be changed. One of the biggest problems about it is people mixing medical and recreation in their discussion. They do not mix well and what is said ends in a spiral into politics. I do not see it being solved soon. Harv
Janet R - 30 Nov 2004 19:59 GMT Hey Harv...when's the next time you and your wife will be out this way? I know it getting colder and Houston traffic is pathetic, but if you are out here anyways, let me know. I want you to stop by for a visit.
I have a large koi pond and a smaller water lily pond. We usually take part in the Houston Pond Tour if I am feeling well.
Janet R
| > Hi Harv, | > [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] | into politics. I do not see it being solved soon. | Harv Harvey R. Stone - 30 Nov 2004 22:22 GMT > Hey Harv...when's the next time you and your wife will be out this > way? I know it getting colder and Houston traffic is pathetic, but if [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Janet R That would be nice.... Wow you are talking serious pond here. Mine is just my piddling with stuff I have put together. Please send me an email with directions and we will make it happen down the road as they say after the first of the year. Christmas time is very important to my church and my family.... Lots to do. Harv
janers - 01 Dec 2004 23:16 GMT I will take a step here. I have lupus too, and definately know what Janet is talking about. I deal with a lot of nausea and have had terrible problems with my GI track. One such problem was achalasia, which I am not going to go INTO right now. to to long, but for those wanting to know, email me.
About the nausea, I was told the lupus does this because it is a connective tissue disease as well as auto immune. The esophagus an stomach are are muscles and they are effected by the lupus in that they do not work like they normally should. Thus, there is a decrease in motility as well as increase, depending on the severity of the lupus in each person. I do support for the foundation and about 9 out of 10 patients I work or have supported Had the nausea. Harv, if you knew a couple then thank God that they did not. It is no fun.
I wake some mornings with no nausea, only to eat and still none. Then out of the blue, it hits like, well you get the picture. You don't want to eat, it makes you want to puke with nothing there to puke up. I take meds for it also and have found using zofran, like the cancer patients use, when receiving IV chemotherapy. It honestly works good for me.
How odd this lupus is, no one is alike but alike in a lot of other things.
good luck janet, and please fill free to email me.
janers oh and Marajuana? I would take it in a heart beat if it helped. Believe it. Life is too damn short to fight pain as well as nausea from diseases that end up killing you, sooner or later. JMO
Janet R - 02 Dec 2004 03:52 GMT It is so nice to know I am not alone. My gastro doc said he treats a few lupus patients with nausea, but I have gastroparesis from diabetes (after a BAD lupus flare...one week I was fine, next week I had raging diabetes) that makes it a little more difficult to treat. I do like zofran, but it knocks me out, but hey I'm not skipping around the house anyways. LOL.
Today I had a pretty good day! I had to go to my lampworking class, so I was distracted and ate and drank very little till I got home. As little as I eat one would think I would be rail thin?!
I have become a master of distracting myself. I paint, make jewelry, or lampworking and I really get into it with music playing. Its nice to settle into a routine.
Thanks Janers for speaking up! :)
Janet R
|I will take a step here. I have lupus too, and definately know what Janet | is talking about. I deal with a lot of nausea and have had terrible [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] | that end up killing you, sooner or later. | JMO Nathan Engle - 29 Nov 2004 20:17 GMT > > there are a lot of very ill people who are responsible people and should > > be afforded the opportunity to help themselves function better with their [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > > kate
> As long as we are talking about terminally ill people,,,,,, I agree with > you. If we are talking about a way that people can continue to get what > ruins their life,,,,, I do not agree with it. This really highlights the reason why medical MJ shouldn't even be allowed to be a blip on the radar. US drug policy has never (or perhaps SHOULD never) been about preventing people from using medicines in a cautious fashion. Yet this so-called "principled stand" is a parting gag gift from Mr Ashcroft that plays DIRECTLY into the hands of the "legalize-everything" lobby. US drug policy gains nothing (and stands to lose a great deal) if we are perceived as interfering with Angel Raich's medicine.
There have been times when I've been more inclined towards Harv's point of view here, but I really think this is the wrong issue on which to make a stand, because the thing that will ruin Angel's life is if she is DENIED the medicine that her state's laws entitle her to use. NOBODY's life is ruined if Angel does this to remain alive. The only thing that is likely to be ruined in the present approach is any credibility that might have remained to the claim that US drug policy is based in compassion and caring for the governed. It is ridiculous that we should even THINK about preventing Angel from doing this trivial thing that keeps her alive.
> Not a large blanket here,,,,, a small amount of people that this will help > to make their short time on this earth,,,, better.... Go for it. > Harv I don't believe in changing the legal status of very many drugs, but in the case of MJ it's abundantly clear that laws concerning it CAUSE more misery than they prevent. From practically every angle this one is a no-brainer - from medicine to what it costs to choke our courts and jails with pot heads - we would do ourselves a big favor by just giving it a rest.
 Signature Nathan Engle Computer Support, IUB Psych Dept nengle@indiana.edu http://mypage.iu.edu/~nengle "Some Assembly Required"
Harvey R. Stone - 29 Nov 2004 21:03 GMT > I don't believe in changing the legal status of very many > drugs, but in the case of MJ it's abundantly clear that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > jails with pot heads - we would do ourselves a big favor > by just giving it a rest. Hi Nathan,,,,, There are a couple of very large problem with the support of MJ. All the young people that have had their life ruined by having easy access to it and THE MOST IMPORTANT THING maybe,,,,,, Who is making the profit from the sale... Is the person buying supporting the worst kind of criminals???? Change that and I might listen to what you have to say. Harv
Jo Firey - 29 Nov 2004 21:22 GMT >> I don't believe in changing the legal status of very many >> drugs, but in the case of MJ it's abundantly clear that [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > have to say. > Harv Just want to nip into this thread and then get back out before it turns ugly.
California has had a medical marijuana law for a while now. It has enabled many to avail themselves of the relief provided. And it has allowed small scale cultivation that keeps the profit away from the criminal element.
In theory.
In practice I find it unbelievable the "conditions" that are claimed to require its use. Every small time grower claims it is for medicinal purposes. And it is driving law enforcement nuts.
Our local sheriff was put in the position of being ordered by the courts to return MJ that had been seized. But it was against federal law for her to do so. And contempt of court if she didn't. I'm sure there were better things she could have been spending her time and the counties limited budget on.
Still, I believe it is an area where the states should have the right to make their own laws and deal with enforcing them.
Jo
Harvey R. Stone - 30 Nov 2004 04:31 GMT > Still, I believe it is an area where the states should have the right to > make their own laws and deal with enforcing them. > > Jo Then in this one thing ,,,,, you support states rights..... Take your thinking and apply it to several of today's issues...... THIS IS VERY MUCH OFF TOPIC IN A WAY and I am sorry for taking part in this if it causes anyone stress. If it causes you to rethink some things in today's world,, maybe it is worth it. Harv
Nathan Engle - 29 Nov 2004 22:11 GMT > > I don't believe in changing the legal status of very many > > drugs, but in the case of MJ it's abundantly clear that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > jails with pot heads - we would do ourselves a big favor > > by just giving it a rest.
> Hi Nathan,,,,, There are a couple of very large problem with the support > of MJ. All the young people that have had their life ruined by having easy > access to it Unfortunately the principal way that MJ can "ruin a young person's life" is for them to be arrested because of it. Its chemical impact is far less than the legal impact - ergo our laws do little but make the situation worse.
> and THE MOST IMPORTANT THING maybe,,,,,, Who is making the > profit from the sale... Is the person buying supporting the worst kind of > criminals???? Change that and I might listen to what you have to say. Ok, take the case of Angel Raich for example - the case now before the Supreme Court. The people who made the profit from the sale of MJ to her were California-based medical MJ growers - people who I frankly consider to be on the same moral plane as the people who operated the Underground Railroad.
To the extent that we deliberately drive MJ sales into the hands of criminals, I'm not convinced that leaves us with any rational grounds for complaint if we then try to claim that "criminals profit from it". Of course they do. That's the way WE set it up, and furthermore OUR government policies artificially inflate the profits that these criminal elements can collect.
By contrast we could divert practically ALL of the profits of MJ into government coffers if the government could bring itself to step in as the distributor, or if it enacted a tax on regulated sales the way it does with products like alcohol and tobacco and refined sugar, all of which do more damage to American health than ALL of the illegal drugs combined.
The number of young people's lives that have been ruined by MJ is orders of magnitude less than the number that have been ruined by our laws. And furthermore the harshness of present laws defeats one of our best defense mechanisms - there are probably millions of mothers and spouses and loved ones who are perfectly aware of a friend or family member's drug problem, but they would rather face the risk posed by the drug than the very real prospect of the person they care about being brutalized in prison.
If these friends and family members could come forward with reports with the confidence that it would result in their loved one getting the help they need, we would have their fullest cooperation. Rehab was the correct and compassionate choice for Noelle Bush in Florida, so why should it be any less correct for the children of people who don't happen to be the governor of Florida?
Adjust the penalties for drug use so that they're within the limits that a concerned family member would consider reasonable as a wake-up call, and US drug enforcement could have every single mother in America on board as a detective.
 Signature Nathan Engle Computer Support, IUB Psych Dept nengle@indiana.edu http://mypage.iu.edu/~nengle "Some Assembly Required"
Harvey R. Stone - 30 Nov 2004 04:40 GMT >> > I don't believe in changing the legal status of very many >> > drugs, but in the case of MJ it's abundantly clear that [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Its chemical impact is far less than the legal impact - > ergo our laws do little but make the situation worse. I do not agree with you at all,,,,, in any way. You can walk your mind around todays laws and make it right within yourself...... but that does not mean the law has not been broken,,, it does not mean that there is not a good reason for the law being there.
>> and THE MOST IMPORTANT THING maybe,,,,,, Who is making the profit from >> the sale... Is the person buying supporting the worst kind of [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > by MJ is orders of magnitude less than the number that > have been ruined by our laws. That is very much your opinion and not the real world for people that are trying to straighten out their young people in their family. I speak from experience.... You speak from some dam debating team. Do you see what I am saying?????
And furthermore the harshness
> of present laws defeats one of our best defense mechanisms - > there are probably millions of mothers and spouses and [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > could have every single mother in America on board as > a detective. Bullshit pure bullshit....... No one needs to have drugs to make their life livable...... If you think a person does,,,,, its about looking into your own life and what is important.
Harv
Thumper - 30 Nov 2004 12:13 GMT >>> > I don't believe in changing the legal status of very many >>> > drugs, but in the case of MJ it's abundantly clear that [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >mean the law has not been broken,,, it does not mean that there is not a >good reason for the law being there. The marijuana laws are Draconian. We have lost a whole generation of young people who now have criminal records because of these laws. It's absolutely stupid to allow people to self medicate themselves with alcohol and persecute them for using marijuana.
I don't use it but you should try it sometime Harv. It's simply not the evil drug that the government says it is.
Thumper
>>> and THE MOST IMPORTANT THING maybe,,,,,, Who is making the profit from >>> the sale... Is the person buying supporting the worst kind of [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > >Harv To reply drop XYZ in address
Harvey R. Stone - 30 Nov 2004 14:48 GMT > The marijuana laws are Draconian. We have lost a whole generation of > young people who now have criminal records because of these laws. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Thumper LOLOLOL, thanks for the advice thumper. I could of used something yesterday to take the edge off of a very frustrating day spent getting releases and running down X rays here and CT scans there so that I could get a open spot on todays schedule with the lung specialist. It all got done but it was not easy and it is not something I am used to doing. Harv
>>>> and THE MOST IMPORTANT THING maybe,,,,,, Who is making the profit >>>> from >>>> the sale... Is the person buying supporting the worst kind of >>>> criminals???? Change that and I might listen to what you have to say. Janet R - 30 Nov 2004 15:43 GMT Dang Harv....I was doing the very same chore yesterday too!!! 2 different set of x-rays and a MRI. At least it was warmer yesterday than today! :)
Janet R
"Harvey R. Stone" <hrstone@swbell..net> wrote in message
| LOLOLOL, thanks for the advice thumper. I could of used something | yesterday to take the edge off of a very frustrating day spent getting | releases and running down X rays here and CT scans there so that I could get | a open spot on todays schedule with the lung specialist. It all got done | but it was not easy and it is not something I am used to doing. | Harv Nann Bell - 30 Nov 2004 14:32 GMT > I do not agree with you at all,,,,, in any way. You can walk your mind > around todays laws and make it right within yourself...... but that does not > mean the law has not been broken,,, it does not mean that there is not a > good reason for the law being there. The problem with that first statement is that the presence of a law does not make it the morally correct solution in all cases. You have indicated that medical marijuana use might be acceptable to you for terminally ill folks. Does that not also translate to folks in chronic pain, unrelieved adequately by other medications? If not, than you are practicing a distinction the medical profession has practiced for years with other pain medications and is just now beginning to move beyond. Those of us who have become functional again with the addition of pain medication can appreciate the need for being medicated appropriately.
The mere presence of a law does not make it right in all cases and may not make it right at all.
> That is very much your opinion and not the real world for people that are > trying to straighten out their young people in their family. I speak from > experience.... You speak from some dam debating team. > Do you see what I am saying????? I gather from your statement that you have had personal experience with drug addiction in someone important to you. That would certainly make one an adamant opponent of drug use. We have also had that experience in my husband's family.
The question that follows from such experience is whether the current legal efforts at reducing drug use in society have been the most helpful solution for the person you care about. In many cases, the laws, the court system and the prison system have not addressed nor repaired the problem. I personally feel that if the money that is being put into legal solutions was instead directed into education and treatment, we could make a much greater dent in societal use of street drugs.
And we need appropriate treatment. Research and experience shows that treatment for drug use is most likely to be successful if a person's soical system (i.e. family, SOs, etc.) is treated, not just the individual, i.e. drug treamment is most effective as family therapy. Also, we need to help people find appropriate employment and possibly alternative "addications" (in many ways AA successes replace alcohol addiction with AA addiction - an obviously much more functional addiction).
We could also put some of that money into additional research towards understanding what is going on in the brains of people who are especially susceptible to addiction. Some people seem to truly NEED an addiction of any sort for some reason we don't understand. For many it appears to be a question of brain chemistry. If science can work that out, they can maybe treat the chemical imbalance and thus help many people.
Just possibly would early, affordable and thorough treament have done more for your loved one than legal system did?
> Bullshit pure bullshit....... No one needs to have drugs to make their > life livable...... If you think a person does,,,,, its about looking into > your own life and what is important. consider that statement seriously, Harv. I don't know about you, but I truly do need drugs to make my life livable. They just happen to be "legal" drugs, but my live would be one day after another of being curled up on the loveseat, whimpering my way through the day without them.
There is a lot of research out there on marijuana and pain that supports the claims of people who use marijuana medically. The research also shows that other delivery methods of THC do not work as well. Research continues regarding delivery methods and other possible elements in marijuana that help in alleviating pain and nausea. The way science goes, I think they will work it out eventually. Until then, though, I will not deny it to those who truly need it. And it will be best of legal growing is permitted to a few groups so the folks who need medical marijuana will not have to risk other complications from the production methods of those who are growing it strictly for street sales.
 Signature Nann remove the Gator cheer to email me Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare
Harvey R. Stone - 30 Nov 2004 15:51 GMT >> That is very much your opinion and not the real world for people that are >> trying to straighten out their young people in their family. I speak [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > adamant opponent of drug use. We have also had that experience in my > husband's family. Yes, my oldest daughter who was away at collage,,, then in her first marrage, with alcohol in her third marrage. Pro help started to turn this around and she has done the rest. None of that now an is doing well. I can take credit for none of it. Sometimes all we can do is be consistant and be there when needed and she did the rest.
> The question that follows from such experience is whether the current > legal [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > in > societal use of street drugs. The real problem about talking about this is that there are different kinds of drug use and they always get blended a discussion.
>> Bullshit pure bullshit....... No one needs to have drugs to make their >> life livable...... If you think a person does,,,,, its about looking >> into >> your own life and what is important. > > consider that statement seriously, Harv. I am not talking about drugs for medical use.
I don't know about you, but I truly
> do need drugs to make my life livable. They just happen to be "legal" > drugs, > but my live would be one day after another of being curled up on the > loveseat, whimpering my way through the day without them. Of coarse you do and there is nothing wrong with that in anyones mind.
> There is a lot of research out there on marijuana and pain that supports > the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > truly > need it. I agree and have said so.
And it will be best of legal growing is permitted to a few groups
> so the folks who need medical marijuana will not have to risk other > complications from the production methods of those who are growing it > strictly for street sales. > > Nann I am fully aware of what you are talking about and have been there with far too many people living and dieing with cancer and I have said that anything that makes that process better for people going through it,,,, should be done.
Nann Bell - 01 Dec 2004 14:31 GMT > Yes, my oldest daughter who was away at collage,,, then in her first > marrage, with alcohol in her third marrage. Pro help started to turn this > around and she has done the rest. None of that now an is doing well. I > can take credit for none of it. Sometimes all we can do is be consistant > and be there when needed and she did the rest. You did all that anyone can do when a loved one is addicted to anything. The only person who can change the situation is the individual her/himself. You helped that happen and that's one way your love for her shows. Congratulations to her for turning things around. It is a remarkably difficult thing to do.
> The real problem about talking about this is that there are different kinds > of drug use and they always get blended a discussion. How true. I think in my response I didn't always realize when you were speaking about recreational use and when you were speaking of medical use.
 Signature Nann remove the Gator cheer to email me Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare
Nathan Engle - 30 Nov 2004 14:36 GMT > > Unfortunately the principal way that MJ can "ruin a young > > person's life" is for them to be arrested because of it. > > Its chemical impact is far less than the legal impact - > > ergo our laws do little but make the situation worse.
> I do not agree with you at all,,,,, in any way. You can walk your mind > around todays laws and make it right within yourself...... but that does not > mean the law has not been broken,,, it does not mean that there is not a > good reason for the law being there. I'm not opposed to the idea of drug law - but what I WOULD like to see is a rational scale for the penalties.
Consider: I favor the legal enforcement of handicapped parking places. But I would be 100% AGAINST throwing violators in jail, or confiscating their houses and cars - BOTH of which we do vs drug offenders. Having penalties that are too harsh would make a handicapped parking law very unpopular, in jeopardy of being overturned.
Because drug laws are a "this is for your own good" proposition, it behooves us to ensure that the penalties really ARE for the offender's own good, and affordable for everyone else too. We need to ensure that court-ordered rehab is going to be a first line of defense option available to EVERY convicted drug offender, not just those whose daddies happen to be governor of Florida.
> > The number of young people's lives that have been ruined > > by MJ is orders of magnitude less than the number that > > have been ruined by our laws.
> That is very much your opinion and not the real world for people that are > trying to straighten out their young people in their family. Actually it's supportable by data from the ONDCP, the DEA, and the Department of Justice. Government-appointed advisory boards as far back as the Nixon administration have suggested legalizing pot.
> I speak from > experience.... You speak from some dam debating team. > Do you see what I am saying????? I see that we have different life experience. Personally I have known a LOT of pot heads. I have not seen ANY whose lives were ruined by pot. Plenty from other things, like alcohol and the state of the economy.
If there is some hidden human carnage of marijuana then it must be hidden VERY well.
> > Adjust the penalties for drug use so that they're within > > the limits that a concerned family member would consider > > reasonable as a wake-up call, and US drug enforcement > > could have every single mother in America on board as > > a detective.
> Bullshit pure bullshit....... No one needs to have drugs to make their > life livable...... *I* do, Harv. And I know many other people whose lives are only tolerable because of the drugs *they* use as medicines.
As far as I'm concerned the entire drug debate is framed in misleading terms. The most important thing isn't whether a person "uses drugs" or even whether their drugs are legal or illegal. Side effects of legal medications kill about 5 times as many people each year as all of the illegal ones combined, so legal vs illegal isn't the critical distinction. Instead the important factor is whether the drugs people take are treated with caution.
From my standpoint a typical medical MJ patient IS treating the drug with the caution due to a medicine, and on that basis I just don't see the problem. The last thing I EVER want to see is a precedent for medicines being taken away from everybody else just because a subset of the population abuse them.
> If you think a person does,,,,, its about looking into > your own life and what is important. Clearly we have differing opinions on this question. We have researchers where I work who study MJ's effects and everything I hear from them leads me to the conclusion that our society over-reacts to it.
Consider: We don't track down pot heads by following the swathe of destruction they leave in their wake. All we do is follow the twinkie wrappers. And our jails are disgracefully over-crowded already. Just how dangerous ARE these people anyway that federal law should stipulate that a single joint is punishable by 6 months in prison (for a first offense yet)?
 Signature Nathan Engle Computer Support, IUB Psych Dept nengle@indiana.edu http://mypage.iu.edu/~nengle "Some Assembly Required"
Kenny - 03 Dec 2004 05:51 GMT Getting in on this kind of late but I have to say I agree totally with Nathan. Our drug laws as they are now really suck. A problem that should be medical actually turns out to be legal. Why we think like this I will never understand. MJ is probably the worst drug to make illegal I have ever known of. Read the history of the hemp plant. Find out just who was behind making it illegal and how they proffered by it. You would be surprised The sad thing is most people will not do that and therefore remain ignorant to it. That's by there choice. MJ has never killed anybody for over using it. Many other drugs that are legal and available over the counter have killed. To make MJ illegal to anyone who seriously needs it is the sin here. A great many people will be judged on judgement day because of their ignorant opinons about this misinformation on MJ. Let's just make it a medical problem and take the law out of it. To keep this out of the hands of people that need is not only just mean but will be construed as a sin in my opinion. This is something that God gave us for a reason. Did you know that at one time it was actually illigal for any land owner in the U. S. A. not to grow hemp/MJ? God help us.
~Kenny
>> > I don't believe in changing the legal status of very many >> > drugs, but in the case of MJ it's abundantly clear that [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] >could have every single mother in America on board as >a detective. johnie - 29 Nov 2004 22:29 GMT > THE MOST IMPORTANT THING maybe,,,,,, Who is making the > profit from the sale... Is the person buying supporting the worst kind of > criminals???? Change that and I might listen to what you have to say. > Harv The only way to change that..."what is now happening" is to decriminalize, so that criminals will no longer be able to profit from the sale of cannabis.
Some of us understand this lesson from the disaster 'prohibition' created. William F. Buckley, one of the great conservatives of this century has been telling us this for 25 years.
And we do need to change what is now happening. More young people are using cannabis than at any other time. More drug lords are profiting than at any other time in our history.
We lost the "drug war". How many more decades do we have to flush billions of dollars down the toilet in worthless irradication programs. If we would commit to spending some of that money properly on EDUCATION we could change the way this next generation thinks about drugs.
Other countries with far fewer resources have done it. Why not us?
Im off my soapbox. That's all I will say about this one. The work required to fix the mess we are in appears to be more than any of our "leaders" will sign on for.
johnie
Thumper - 29 Nov 2004 23:45 GMT >> I don't believe in changing the legal status of very many >> drugs, but in the case of MJ it's abundantly clear that [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >criminals???? Change that and I might listen to what you have to say. >Harv It is evident that although you may know a lot about arthritis, you don't know squat about marijuana or it's use. You have bought the government's propaganda hook line and sinker. Thumper To reply drop XYZ in address
Thumper - 29 Nov 2004 23:38 GMT >> there are a lot of very ill people who are responsible people and should >> be afforded the opportunity to help themselves function better with their [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >you. If we are talking about a way that people can continue to get what >ruins their life,,,,, I do not agree with it. Come on Harvey. Are you as against Alcohol? Thumper
>Not a large blanket here,,,,, a small amount of people that this will help >to make their short time on this earth,,,, better.... Go for it. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >> Version: 6.0.802 / Virus Database: 545 - Release Date: 11/26/2004 To reply drop XYZ in address
spodosaurus - 30 Nov 2004 04:05 GMT > As long as we are talking about terminally ill people,,,,,, I agree with > you. If we are talking about a way that people can continue to get what [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to make their short time on this earth,,,, better.... Go for it. > Harv Why should it only be terminally ill people that have access to a beneficial drug? Why should people with chronic illness be made to suffer needlessly when there's a chemical out there that is not controlled by drug companies which helps them?
 Signature spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo
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Sheri - 30 Nov 2004 05:37 GMT > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > kate I agree with you on this one. I have a son who is still involved with drugs and alcohol. He is 18 and has been kicked out of the house for his choices. He blames me for all his problems since I am a single mother. His dad chose to not be around. He believes I should have saved him from himself. I tried. I tried the methods you did Kate, and I tried taking what was left of the alcohol out of the house. He just had "friends" buy him alcohol, cigarettes and drugs. When I was on Vioxx, he stole them out of my lock box (he broke the lock) so he could try them thinking they were good pain pills. When the doctor put me on Mobic, he stole those too. There was no where safe in the house, the last week he was here, I had to leave everything locked up in my bosses desk or he would come to my work and steal it. He is the only one who can save him from himself.
Then there are the folks who learn how to save themselves. I hope my son becomes one of those, but at this point, I wouldn't take any bets on it. Those who want to do illegal substances or abuse any type of legal ones will always find a way to get them if they want them. It doesn't matter to some how they get it. I think that is the major problem.
I also have 2 younger sons. Neither one of them wants to do drugs or alcohol. They saw what their big brother did and decided it wasn't for them. I hope they keep that attitude!
Sheri
Nann Bell - 30 Nov 2004 14:32 GMT > I also have 2 younger sons. Neither one of them wants to do drugs or > alcohol. They saw what their big brother did and decided it wasn't for > them. I hope they keep that attitude! > > Sheri I hope so, too, Sheri! What a time you have had. Some people seem to be particularly susceptible to addications of one type or another. Hopefully, science will one day figure out what is going on in the brains of these people and will be able to treat it from that angle.
How wise of you to realize that only he can save himself. If he doesn't want a change, there will never be one, no matter what you do. It must be so painful to watch as a parent, though.
 Signature Nann remove the Gator cheer to email me Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare
Harvey R. Stone - 30 Nov 2004 14:35 GMT >> some courts know that congress can't legislate people into having good >> character, good personality traits and into personal responsibility for >> one's self. i wish those people who don't know that, would learn it. Well said,,,, Young people are very much individuals with their own likes and dislikes and sometimes must learn lifes lessons the hard way.
>> our oldest son came into our lives with a drug and alcohol problem when >> he was 12. frankly, it was hell to deal with, for him, as well as for us [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> himself and his being able to blame others for not doing that, instead of >> accepting his responsibility for his own actions. I do not think it can be said any better. He will never know the pain that you have lived with and he may never understand the things you have had to do and why. The hard part is not letting this carry over with the younger kids. How the older brother is not their fault.
>> there are a lot of very ill people who are responsible people and should >> be afforded the opportunity to help themselves function better with their [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> kate Well said. The seriously ill need what every help they can get.
> I agree with you on this one. I have a son who is still involved with > drugs and alcohol. He is 18 and has been kicked out of the house for his [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > leave everything locked up in my bosses desk or he would come to my work > and steal it. He is the only one who can save him from himself. Well said and well done. What I have said above applies here too.
> Then there are the folks who learn how to save themselves. I hope my son > becomes one of those, but at this point, I wouldn't take any bets on it. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Sheri Life's lessons some times have to be learned the hard way. As your younger boys become men, thank the older young man for showing them how not to live. I know it does not help you now but there are sooo many mothers that are going through what you have and we can only hope that they handle it as well as you have. Harv
d'huit - 30 Nov 2004 18:27 GMT is it just me? i'm totally and utterly confused. my brain hurts. it feels like these same comments of mine elicited a waaaay different response and attitude from you, the first time. are there two different harv's on asa? kate
>>> some courts know that congress can't legislate people into having good >>> character, good personality traits and into personal responsibility for [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > you have. > Harv Harvey R. Stone - 30 Nov 2004 22:17 GMT > is it just me? i'm totally and utterly confused. my brain hurts. it > feels like these same comments of mine elicited a waaaay different > response and attitude from you, the first time. are there two different > harv's on asa? > kate No,,, there is just one. These are complicated problems and it is not going to get solved until steps are taken to make MJ available from respected sources and for Medical problems. You will see my bad side when it involves young people trying to improve what there day brings with drugs and MJ is a drug and people do get hung up on it. I have battled it with my grandson and his mother with my grandson ending up getting a GED and my oldest daughter dropping out of collage. She has an IQ that is wayyy up there,,,, which was wasted in collage with several types of drugs. I will give you a compliment. I find it just as hard to argue with you as I did with her. I do not remember ever winning an argument but in later years,,,, she has admitted that I was right about many things and she has come home three different times. To get herself together and off she goes again on a new start and she always works herself up in whatever company she works for. The grandson is back living with her and is going to the UNiv. of Houston after seeing what it is like living on own and working a dead end job. LOLOL You talk about MJ,,,, he had it growing under lights to cut his costs down... :-) OK,,ok , I will shut up now. Harv
d'huit - 01 Dec 2004 17:19 GMT >> is it just me? i'm totally and utterly confused. my brain hurts. it >> feels like these same comments of mine elicited a waaaay different [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > going to get solved until steps are taken to make MJ available from > respected sources and for Medical problems. ****i agree.
You will see my bad side when
> it involves young people trying to improve what there day brings with > drugs and MJ is a drug and people do get hung up on it. ****yeppers and they do that kind of thing with many other things, too.
I have battled it with
> my grandson and his mother with my grandson ending up getting a GED and my > oldest daughter dropping out of collage. She has an IQ that is wayyy up > there,,,, which was wasted in collage with several types of drugs. ****i'm sorry you had to got through that, harv. i know it is not a fun situation to have to deal with, to put it mildly. our son, who was also bright, dropped out at 16 and later (age 19), went back and got his GED and a few college credits, just before entering the airforce. he now has a master's degree, because he decided he wanted it (after he became a stock broker) when he decided to go into the ministry.
> I will give you a compliment. I find it just as hard to argue with > you as I did with her. I do not remember ever winning an argument but in > later years,,,, she has admitted that I was right about many things ****thank you for your compliment. i'm certain you were right about many things and i'm glad your daughter recognized that and let you know your wisdom was acknowledged by her. these kinds of discussions aren't about my winning or being right, harv. for me, it's about trying to help others to see or understand a little bit more than it appears they do (and appearances, as well as, perceptions can be deceiving).
and she
> has come home three different times. To get herself together and off she > goes again on a new start and she always works herself up in whatever > company she works for. The grandson is back living with her and is going > to the UNiv. of Houston after seeing what it is like living on own and > working a dead end job. ****i think it takes a bit longer for many young adults, who have to overcome these kinds of influences on their lives, to find their way back to themselves. it takes a lot of love and support for them to be able to do that. you obviously gave a lot of that.
our son had soooo many jobs and career starts
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