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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Arthritis / July 2004

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weight control

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Sonatabv - 07 Jul 2004 05:53 GMT
Dear folks,

I know a lot of us have weight problems on top of everything else.  So I'm
looking for opinions.  At Christmas, my sugar went out of control so I visited
my PCP and my nutritionist and got back on a proper diet.  My sugar has been
normal for 3-4 monthes now.  My eating has not changed but I no longer lose any
weight.  I do watch my portions and am eating properly.  My family has noticed
no change in pattern either.  Any ideas?

Thanks in Advance,

Vickie B.
who ordered her computer tonight!
Caroline Marold - 07 Jul 2004 07:21 GMT
Do you want to join us with our South Beach diet buddy group. We are
posting notes about it under the heading SoBch. Keep looking for them.
Maybe a week or two at Phase One will be all you need to push your body
back into the weight loss pattern.
Duckie

> Dear folks,
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Vickie B.
> who ordered her computer tonight!

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Mercy - 08 Jul 2004 14:22 GMT
 Hi Sonatabv.  I never thought it was possible to lose weight with being on
Prednisone.  However I have lost at least 25 lbs. since Feb.  I had a quest,
my stepdaughter was getting married.  I was very very strict and continue to
be.  I eat mostly veggies and fresh fruit; some protein, small amounts of
carbs such as bread and pasta and gallons of ice water every day.  I am
continuing to lose as well.  I am one of those who cannot do much exercise.
I walk up and down our stairs at home and do walking when I have to
shop..... that is about all.  It is possible; believe me.  Oh yes, another
biggy that helped me considerably.  I never got on the scale until I went to
the drs. office.  At one point I was weighing myself every day and it got to
be so upsetting.  I asked my husband to hide the scale.  I go by the way my
clothes fit and in some things I have dropped 3 dress sizes.... 2 for sure
in everything.  I hope this gives you hope.

 Nettie

 >
 > Sonatabv wrote:
 >
 > > Dear folks,
 > >
 > > I know a lot of us have weight problems on top of everything else.  So
I'm
 > > looking for opinions.  At Christmas, my sugar went out of control so I
visited
 > > my PCP and my nutritionist and got back on a proper diet.  My sugar
has been
 > > normal for 3-4 monthes now.  My eating has not changed but I no longer
lose any
 > > weight.  I do watch my portions and am eating properly.  My family has
noticed
 > > no change in pattern either.  Any ideas?
 > >
 > > Thanks in Advance,
 > >
 > > Vickie B.
 > > who ordered her computer tonight!
 >
 > --
 >
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 >
Nmhart14 - 08 Jul 2004 16:43 GMT
Nettie:  I am so glad to hear that someone is eating properly and loosing
weight.  I am so sick of hearing about no carb diets....Now my doctor tells me
that this diet is dangerous at best long term and could be very harmful to
women in particular froma calcium stanpoint.  I have severla friends who are
nutitionists and they have always preached that the way to diet is to LIMIT
PORTIONS and eat ALL of the food groups with an eye to low fat and healthy
choices.  This DOES WORK!!!!! and you are proof of that.  I cannot for the life
of me figure out why Americans fall so prey to the trendy diets that come out.
I think they are looking for some unique, quick fix and instant gratification.
Thanks for your post!  It reinforces my ideas about eating.
Tracy Johnson - 08 Jul 2004 19:33 GMT
> Nettie:  I am so glad to hear that someone is eating properly and loosing
> weight.  I am so sick of hearing about no carb diets....Now my doctor tells me
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> PORTIONS and eat ALL of the food groups with an eye to low fat and healthy
> choices.

With all due respect to your doctor and your friends, they are all buying
into old, unproven myths about low-carb diets. Recent science, particularly
by Harvard and Duke Universities, show that this diet is a very healthy
option. I speak as someone who's been on it for more than three years and,
arthritis aside, has no health problems whatsoever, an incredible
cholesterol profile, good blood pressure, a vastly improved thyroid, etc.,
etc., etc.

> This DOES WORK!!!!! and you are proof of that.  I cannot for the life
> of me figure out why Americans fall so prey to the trendy diets that come out.
> I think they are looking for some unique, quick fix and instant gratification.
> Thanks for your post!  It reinforces my ideas about eating.

The reason SOME people "fall prey" is because standard diets don't work for
them. Low-fat diets following the typical food pyramid model did not allow
me to lose weight. Many, many people in North America have gone so far
overboard with the carbs over the past few decades that it has created a
situation of insulin problems -- and I was one of them. Until THAT problem
was addressed, no diet allowed me to lose weight... and believe me, I tried.
The low-carb way of eating allows you to repair a problematic insulin
response system, and therefore reduces the amount of fat your body can/will
store, and furthermore sheds the excess weight when the insulin system is
functioning well.

Tracy
Nmhart14 - 08 Jul 2004 20:31 GMT
I could argue my view on this but having attended numerous workshops presented
by unbiased researchers, the jury is still out on the long term effects of the
low carb diets.  Many well respected doctors, etc. feel that there are many
potential problems with this diet, long term.  I am sure you are familiar with
them, so I will not elaborate.  You can do a google search and read all about
it.  You make a key point in that you said you
> have gone so far
>overboard with the carbs over the past few decades that it has created a
>situation of insulin problems
The key phrase there is YOU HAVE GONE OVERBOARD.  Had you eaten the "good
carbs" like fruits and vegies and NOT the bad simple carbs. you would be fine.
Again, moderation is the key.  The American Heart Association and The American
Cancer Association, The Arthritis Foundation, The Diabetes Association, and on
and on recommends what has worked for years for those who truly follow it...and
that is the key....JMO
Tracy Johnson - 08 Jul 2004 21:17 GMT
> > have gone so far
> >overboard with the carbs over the past few decades that it has created a
> >situation of insulin problems
>
> The key phrase there is YOU HAVE GONE OVERBOARD.  Had you eaten the "good
> carbs" like fruits and vegies and NOT the bad simple carbs. you would be fine.

Uh, I was talking about the society in general. I ATE good carbs. I STILL
DO. It is the empty carbs in breakfast cereals, refined grains, sugar, and
starchy foods that are the problem, and those carbs are everywhere in the
North American diet. If everyone ate fruits and veggies and limited the
remainder of the carbs extensively, we'd all be healthy. That's not the way
our diet tends to go in North America. Just look at our schools and what
they consider "healthy" school lunches!

> Again, moderation is the key.  The American Heart Association and The American
> Cancer Association, The Arthritis Foundation, The Diabetes Association, and on
> and on recommends what has worked for years for those who truly follow it...and
> that is the key....JMO

Funny thing... in Canada we have a large population of natives who are type
2 diabetics. The MOST success anyone has had in helping them is via a
low-carb diet. There are all kinds of studies coming out showing that
low-carb is the only way to go with diabetes, and people who've even
reversed their diabetes on low-carb diets -- the only diet that can make
that claim.

As for the Arthritis Foundation, I have a severe case of inflammatory
arthritis and spent many hours in one-on-one sessions with a nurse there for
education purpose, and we went over my diet carefully and she was very
pleased with what I was eating.

With the Heart Association, they have continually screwed up the population
by emphasizing LOW fat rather than HEALTHY fats, and we know now,
unequivocally, that healthy fats can be hugely beneficial to people with
heart problems, and that the damaged fats prevalent in the low-fat diets
raise the levels of LDL and triglycerides, and that it is the RATIO of HDL
to LDL that is more important.

I have nothing much to say about the Cancer Foundation except that my
understanding is they stress the good carbs in fibrous veggies, etc., which
are not at issue here.

Tracy
Nann Bell - 08 Jul 2004 22:32 GMT
>  an incredible
> cholesterol profile,

Just to re-iterate a point we touched on recently in the SoBch thread,
dietary cholesterol has been shown to have only a slight effect on serum
cholesterol levels.  People who have truly high cholesterol levels are now
known to have it for genetic reasons, as most of our serum chol. is produced
by our livers.  If you have an incredible cholesterol profile" it is because
you got the right genes.  Now it is known not to be an indicator of the
safety of one's diet.

Still.... htis does assume you are eating relatively healthily - as you said
you are.  I hear the guy who made the film "Super Size Me" saw his
cholesterol levels double in a month of eating nothing but McDonald's ... and
his doctor said his liver suffered horrendously.  Don't know what all the
food/body interactions going on there were.

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Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare

Tracy Johnson - 08 Jul 2004 22:43 GMT
> >  an incredible
> > cholesterol profile,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> you got the right genes.  Now it is known not to be an indicator of the
> safety of one's diet.

I do agree that genetics play a huge role; but my cholesterol profile
definitely did improve significantly after I started low-carbing.
Triglycerides, which are now considered a much greater indicator of heart
disease, dropped radically, and my good cholesterol levels jumped a fair
bit, making my good/bad cholesterol ratio very positive indeed. Not that my
cholesterol profile was really bad to begin with, but it isn't all about
genes, either. Dietary stuff can make a different, particularly on the
triglycerides front.

Tracy
Nmhart14 - 09 Jul 2004 04:45 GMT
I guess the bottom line here is do what works best for you and helps you to be
healthy, maintain a healthy weight and be happy with the choices you have made.
It appears that we are agreeing to disagree on this subject but your opinions
are interesting and thought provoking.
Adelle D. Stavis, Esq. - 09 Jul 2004 17:17 GMT
> > >  an incredible
> > > cholesterol profile,
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Tracy

Hi!

I'm going to echo Tracy here. My triglycerides dropped 100 points when I
went on Atkins. But I found Atkins difficult to stay on because of
constipation, and boredom with the foods I was choosing.

I'm trying South Beach because I need to lose weight, we are forming a peer
group for support and lower/healthier carbs works well for me on an overall
health level. I have less daytime sleepiness and my IBS symptoms go away
when I do low carb. I'm not sure whether it's a wheat allergy, a gluten
thing, or what. When I'm in a phase to add in whole grains, I'll experiment
and see what triggers what. Since my Mom has celiac disease, I'm starting to
wonder whether many people with diarrhea IBS might be celiacs. Either way,
my life is no longer ruled by whether I can find a bathroom very quickly,
and that is very cool.

Adelle
Jo Firey - 09 Jul 2004 19:50 GMT
lower/healthier carbs works well for me on an overall
> health level. I have less daytime sleepiness and my IBS symptoms go away
> when I do low carb. I'm not sure whether it's a wheat allergy, a gluten
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Adelle

Same here.  I'm pretty sure it is the refined sugars that get to me, but I
really do need to pay attenetion to how the wheat reacts when I add it back.
Part of my family was vegetarian so I've had more than the usual exposure to
gluten products and whole wheat products.  Adding thing slowly will be an
easy way to test.  Haven't had to take imodium all week.

Jo
Caroline Marold - 10 Jul 2004 05:37 GMT
I've been on Arava and added Bentyl to keep myself from near disaster. I
have had to drop the Bentyl dose from two to one. Stuff is actually
formed now. I did get cocky and dropped the Bentyl all together and then
discovered quickly that I still needed it. lol But dropping the dose
[one less pill] is a good thing.  I think that it might be the sugar for
me but Phase Two will help me tell.
Duckie

> lower/healthier carbs works well for me on an overall
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Jo

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Kiyoshi Anrui - 08 Jul 2004 20:26 GMT
>Nettie:  I am so glad to hear that someone is eating properly and loosing
>weight.  I am so sick of hearing about no carb diets....Now my doctor tells me
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>I think they are looking for some unique, quick fix and instant gratification.
>Thanks for your post!  It reinforces my ideas about eating.

My nutritionist pushes protein. She said if I eat nothing else at a
meal, make sure I eat the protein.

I take Viactive calcium as a supplement. They are chewable and taste
just like candy... chocolate, caramel, etc. Of course, I haven't had
any real chocolate for almost a year so they could be fooling me with
the fake chocolate taste. <g> I take one in the morning and one in the
evening.

Same with multi-vitamins. I take two per day, morning and evening. I
take the sugar free, chewable Bugs Bunny vitamins. My nutritionist
said that unless you need one of the vitamins with some extra
supplement (like extra iron in Centrum Silver) that the Bugs Bunny
vitamins are just as good as the more expensive ones. Basically, a
vitamin is a vitamin is a vitamin. If they have the same ingredients,
then they are considered equal... except some vitamin companies charge
a lot more because they use grown up sounding names for their product.

I also take B-12, fast absorbing iron, and powdered protein. And, of
course, I am required to drink at least 64 ounces of water each day
(the 8 glasses of water theory for keeping the body in ketosis).

I am eating probably less than 600 calories per day with most of that
coming from protein. I eat mostly eggs and canned meats like tuna,
chicken, and turkey. For amounts, I can't finish two scrambled eggs
and I only eat two times per day. If I am eating tuna, I mix it with
Miracle Whip Light and mustard. I can eat about two to three bites and
I'm full.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you are going to eat less or
eliminate certain food or food groups from your normal diet, you need
to pay attention to supplements and vitamins. Low protein can result
in anemia, hair loss, etc. I'm not allowed to eat red meat until month
five, so I am eating the white meats. I can have real chicken, but the
canned stuff is easier since I can only eat a couple bites at a time.
Plus, it is more moist so goes through my stomach easier than a
grilled chicken breast would go through.

The four rules of the program I am on are to eat protein first at
every meal, drink the required amount of water each day, exercise, and
don't snack between meals. The things I am working on the hardest are
portion control (eyes truly are bigger than my stomach at this point),
eating slowly, and chewing my food completely. These are important not
just as a better way to eat our food but, for me, it is important
because food could get stuck in the new stomach if I eat too much, too
fast, or try too big of a bite of a solid type food.

I'm not an expert at any of this stuff, but I did have the gastric
bypass surgery in May and have been working with doctors and a
nutritionist since then who specialize in assisting morbidly obese
patients to lose weight. So, take what I say for what it is worth and
check with your own doctors before starting any weight loss or
exercise program <--- standard disclaimer.

Also, I have dieted my whole life doing the yo-yo thing. The most I
ever lost at one time before was 150 pounds. I gained back 250 pounds.
No diet is worth doing if when you quit the diet you gain it all
back... plus more in most cases. It has been suggested in research
that yo-yo dieting is harder on the body than just staying at your
current weight.

I hope those of you on the South Beach diet can incorporate some of
the diet methods they endorse into your regular eating pattern once
you end the diet. That is why I chose the gastric bypass surgery. I
can't stay on a diet my whole life but that is what is required for me
personally if I am ever to lose and keep off the weight. The surgery
put me on a forced lifestyle change.

So far, I am very happy. I've lost over 180 pounds with over 60 of
that being just since May 17th when I had my surgery. I lost the first
120 in nine to ten months by going on a liquid diet called Medifast
(can be bought online). However, I started that "diet" knowing I would
be getting the surgery later on and wouldn't yo-yo back.

Anyway, I guess my point in responding here is to remind people to
watch their nutrition and take supplements if necessary and to be
careful when you stop your diet so you don't gain it all back. Take
the best common sense advice from the different diets and incorporate
them into your regular lifestyle... and don't call it a diet.

Just my personal opinion after struggling with weight since childhood.
I've been on dozens of different diets, tried exercise, hypnotism,
drugs, and other weight loss gimmicks. In the end, only common sense
in our eating habits and using up the calories we take in will result
in weight loss. I have an eating disorder so was unable to rely on
common sense. Therefore, I had the surgery. Hopefully, you all can
change your lifestyles and make it work for you personally. Good luck
with the weight loss and may you lose a lot and keep it off forever.

BTW, I did at one point think about going on Jarrod's Subway diet. I
think I could live on Subway sandwiches. <g>

--
Kiyoshi - The reverse side also has a reverse side.

"I have also learned from experience that the
greater part of our happiness or misery depends
upon our dispositions, and not upon our circumstances."
Martha Dandridge Custis Washington, 1731-1802
Nmhart14 - 08 Jul 2004 20:45 GMT
>In the end, only common sense
>in our eating habits and using up the calories we take in will result
>in weight loss.

Amen!  There was a great article about YoYo dieting and the harm it can do a
few weeks ago in one of the major papers, can't remember which one.
One thing I question is the notion of only eating 2 times a day.  I know your
gastric bypass surgery may be the reason so for you that is probably necessary
but generally speaking that is unwise because the more small meals we eat the
better for our metabolism which peaks around noon so I eat my biggest meal
then.  however, I have snacks of fruits, etc. every few hours to keep my
metabolism up which has worked very well.  Otherwise your body goes into a
"stavation" mode and wants to hang on to the fuel you give, good or bad. JMO
Kiyoshi Anrui - 08 Jul 2004 23:12 GMT
>>In the end, only common sense
>>in our eating habits and using up the calories we take in will result
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>metabolism up which has worked very well.  Otherwise your body goes into a
>"stavation" mode and wants to hang on to the fuel you give, good or bad. JMO

Yes, the surgery is the reason I'm only doing two meals a day. I take
so many pills, supplements, vitamins, protein, etc in the morning that
I have no room left for breakfast after drinking all the water
necessary to get them down. <g>

--
Kiyoshi - The reverse side also has a reverse side.

"I have also learned from experience that the
greater part of our happiness or misery depends
upon our dispositions, and not upon our circumstances."
Martha Dandridge Custis Washington, 1731-1802
Mercy - 09 Jul 2004 09:17 GMT
 My diet is based on the Weight Watchers which includes everything in
moderation.  Also, initially, I ate strawberries 2-3 times a day and for
some odd reason, that helped me lose as well.  Remember to drink water,
water, water!!!  This is how the body eliminates the fat and toxins.  You
spend a lot of time in the bathroom but.....

 Good luck everybody.

 Nettie

 > Nettie:  I am so glad to hear that someone is eating properly and
loosing
 > weight.  I am so sick of hearing about no carb diets....Now my doctor
tells me
 > that this diet is dangerous at best long term and could be very harmful
to
 > women in particular froma calcium stanpoint.  I have severla friends who
are
 > nutitionists and they have always preached that the way to diet is to
LIMIT
 > PORTIONS and eat ALL of the food groups with an eye to low fat and
healthy
 > choices.  This DOES WORK!!!!! and you are proof of that.  I cannot for
the life
 > of me figure out why Americans fall so prey to the trendy diets that
come out.
 > I think they are looking for some unique, quick fix and instant
gratification.
 > Thanks for your post!  It reinforces my ideas about eating.
Char - 10 Jul 2004 04:58 GMT
>...Now my doctor tells me
>that this diet is dangerous at best

Told my doctor, I was about to start the South Beach Diet. He told me, to go
for it.  Apparently the weight I am carrying is more dangerous to my health,
than the diet.
Char

"Remember, I'm pulling for ya'. We're all in this together." Red Green
Harvey R. Stone - 07 Jul 2004 15:19 GMT
> Dear folks,
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Thanks in Advance,

Hi Vickie,,,,  You have a method of eating that is stable and I congratulate
for doing well.    The rest is all about exercise.   Something we do not
talk much about here in the newsgroup is our heart.   I have to think of it
as a muscle that needs exercise to stay healthy,,,, just like the rest of
our body.   Inflam.arth. is different for different people.   Some people
have to deal with nodules that do not allow a person to do certain kinds of
exercising,,,, some people have more problems with the support items to a
joint.
     The old saying about use it or loose it is very true for all of us.
We get out of shape soooo fast it seems and then when we try to do something
that normal people to,,,, we favor this or that and the back pays the price.
I believe that keeping the stomach muscles in some kind of shape is the best
thing we can do to keep from hurting our back while working in the yard or
cleaning out the garage or whatever.
     One thing we have to remember is that the fitness was slowly lost,,,,
the weight was slowly gained and getting things as they should be is a long
dedicated process.   Getting our mind right for doing that is the biggest
job of all.... It is now anyone else's fault that we have to do the things
we do and they dam sure should not have to pay for us being the way we are.
Harv
Tracy Johnson - 08 Jul 2004 19:28 GMT
> I know a lot of us have weight problems on top of everything else.  So I'm
> looking for opinions.  At Christmas, my sugar went out of control so I visited
> my PCP and my nutritionist and got back on a proper diet.  My sugar has been
> normal for 3-4 monthes now.  My eating has not changed but I no longer lose any
> weight.  I do watch my portions and am eating properly.  My family has noticed
> no change in pattern either.  Any ideas?

Hi Vickie,

How long has it been since you stopped losing weight? A lot of times people
have "plateaus" in their weight loss, where they're stuck at a certain
weight for quite a while. Unless it's been longer than 3 months, it might be
just a time of your body "re-adjusting" and catching up with the weight
loss. Otherwise, you might want to talk to your PCP and ask about
possibilities of other issues interfering with weight loss, like thyroid
problems.

Tracy
Helena - 09 Jul 2004 18:23 GMT
>>I hear the guy who made the film "Super Size Me" saw his
cholesterol levels double in a month of eating nothing but McDonald's
... and
his doctor said his liver suffered horrendously.  Don't know what all
the
food/body interactions going on there were.

Saw this movie recently-it's no surprise to me that he had those
effects.  I'm sure I'd would have a strange body rxn if I ate cottage
cheese for a month. Have you ever seen anyone eat as much as he did,
I've never seen such a thing.
Nann Bell - 10 Jul 2004 22:12 GMT
>>> I hear the guy who made the film "Super Size Me" saw his
> cholesterol levels double in a month of eating nothing but McDonald's
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> cheese for a month. Have you ever seen anyone eat as much as he did,
> I've never seen such a thing.

haven't seen the movie yet, just heard about it on NPR.  I look forward to
seeing it htough!  I must admit, McDonalds has a few fairly healthy choices
these days, much to my surprise.  Still, we only stop there when traveling
for little pick-me-ups, like their fruit/yogurt parfait.

Signature

Nann
remove the Gator cheer to email me
Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare

Ray Audette - 10 Jul 2004 05:18 GMT
Weight control is simple.  Only eat those things that are edible in
nature.

In nature, that is without technology ( "Tree of Knowledge" in the
Bible ), grains, beans, potatoes, milk of other animals and refined
sugars are not eaten by any species of Primates.  If you eliminate
these "Forbidden Fruits" from the diet it becomes impossible to be
overweight.

Recent studies that RA patients have antibodies to GAGs (
carbohydrates found in the forbidden fruits ) and these antibodies
cause the body to attack tissue found in the joints.

The GAGs used in these experiments were derived from corn which is
very high in these substances.  Thus it is of little wonder that
according to epidemological studies of human remains, RA followed the
introduction corn everywhere in the world.

I have been following a high-fat, high-calorie Paleolithic Diet for 20
years.  My arthritis went away within the first few weeks. This plan
works for all Primate species.

Low fat dieting has been shown to be a hoax in both the New York Times
( "What's if It's All a Big Fat Lie" ) and Science ( The Soft Science
of Dietary Fat ).  Low calorie diets have been shown in long term
studies to increase weight ( average 15% gain after two years ).
Recent studies of low-carb ( Paleolithic ) diets have shown that they
are far more effective in lowering weight than any other method and
improve cholesterol better than statin drugs ( and without all those
pestky liver transplants ).

If your doctor tells you to eat a low-fat or low-calorie diet you
should call your lawyer and get your money back.

Ray Audette
Author "NeanderThin"
www.NeanderThin.com
Caroline Marold - 11 Jul 2004 02:01 GMT
You are a man. You are not on pred. You are not menopausal. You probably
have some sort of metabolism which has not been shut down by 4 different
drugs used to treat arthritis and other continuing diseases.
And frankly, you are a jerk.
Duckie

> Weight control is simple.  Only eat those things that are edible in
> nature.
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> Author "NeanderThin"
> www.NeanderThin.com

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Nann Bell - 11 Jul 2004 11:48 GMT
> You are a man. You are not on pred. You are not menopausal. You probably
> have some sort of metabolism which has not been shut down by 4 different
> drugs used to treat arthritis and other continuing diseases.
> And frankly, you are a jerk.
> Duckie

LOL  I just deleted him as a jerk this am and didn't even read it until now.  
I figured out why his "diet" works for weight control - you aren't allowed to
eat anything!  I'd like to see him tell the Irish of the past several
centuries that those potatoes they lived on were the result of technology.  
LOL  I think they lived on potatoes partly due to a LACK of technology!  
Well, we know he's a jerk and a spammer anyway, but it's hysterical how
people expect you to buy flawed arguments.

We were walking in a nearby state historical site the other day when we saw
this rather frightening looking mushroom.  Mike asked how I'd like to be the
first one to try that to see whether it was poisonous.  Told him I'd do it if
I were hungry enough!

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Nann
remove the Gator cheer to email me
Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare

Caroline Marold - 12 Jul 2004 03:43 GMT
Ah, he just hit the wrong button in me. I mostly didn't get past the
first line about 'it is just a matter of what you put in your mouth'. If
one more man ever says that to me in person, he better be protecting his
manhood.
Duckie

>>You are a man. You are not on pred. You are not menopausal. You probably
>>have some sort of metabolism which has not been shut down by 4 different
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> first one to try that to see whether it was poisonous.  Told him I'd do it if
> I were hungry enough!

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donnah - 12 Jul 2004 15:06 GMT
LOL...I know what ya mean, Duckie!
donnah
current developer of a protective piece for manhood (made of cotton
and feathers :)

> Ah, he just hit the wrong button in me. I mostly didn't get past the
> first line about 'it is just a matter of what you put in your mouth'. If
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> > first one to try that to see whether it was poisonous.  Told him I'd do it if
> > I were hungry enough!
Adelle D. Stavis, Esq. - 11 Jul 2004 17:20 GMT
The Paleolithic diet is poplar with a lot of people who think evolving past
hunter gatherers was a mistake ;-)
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Adelle D. Stavis, Esq.

> You are a man. You are not on pred. You are not menopausal. You probably
> have some sort of metabolism which has not been shut down by 4 different
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> > Author "NeanderThin"
> > www.NeanderThin.com
Tracy Johnson - 12 Jul 2004 16:41 GMT
> The Paleolithic diet is poplar with a lot of people who think evolving past
> hunter gatherers was a mistake ;-)

I know that his post obviously hit a sore spot with some people, and I do
understand that. And I do agree that there are a LOT of issues related to
weight with the drugs most of us here take and what not.

At the same time, the things that the follow-up posts said aren't really
true. People who follow low-carb diets are much more enlightened that it's
being suggested! And there is a LOT to eat. If there was nothing to eat on
this type of diet, how did the human species survive before processed foods
came along?!

Weight control is such a deeply personal and often painful issue, and I
understand why he struck the wrong chord with some people, but if you ever
are curious about the science of this type of diet, there are so many great
books out there that really do explain it. Until I read up on it, I didn't
get it at all; but the science is truly compelling and makes all the sense
in the world.

Tracy
Char - 12 Jul 2004 18:36 GMT
>If there was nothing to eat on
>this type of diet, how did the human species survive before processed foods
>came along?!

They worked the female of the species to death processing the food.
Char

"Remember, I'm pulling for ya'. We're all in this together." Red Green
Nann Bell - 12 Jul 2004 18:48 GMT
> At the same time, the things that the follow-up posts said aren't really
> true. People who follow low-carb diets are much more enlightened that it's
> being suggested! And there is a LOT to eat. If there was nothing to eat on
> this type of diet, how did the human species survive before processed foods
> came along?!

I disagree with the idea that what Ray is promoting is how the human species
ate before processed foods came along.  Ray said, and I quote,

"In nature, that is without technology ( "Tree of Knowledge" in the Bible ),
grains, beans, potatoes, milk of other animals and refined sugars are not
eaten by any species of Primates."

I will grant you that refined sugars were not eaten, but grains were eaten,
though in a more natural state than enriched white bread.  Potatoes were
naturally eaten as were, and are other tubers, even in 3rd world countries of
today.  Before farming the people needed to find them, but they did eat them.
Then they began to farm tubers long before processed foods and technology
came along.  Beans have always been eaten.   They were easier to eat while
you still had teeth, and became easier once cooking became possible, but to
claim that legumes weren't eaten before technology is blatently wrong.  All
you need to do is look at what other animals eat today in the wild.  They eat
tubers, beans, grains and yes, the young even drink the milk of other species
when necessary.  Ray's logic works as an argument for eating things in their
more natural state, but it fails in the attempt to claim these things should
not be eaten at all.

remember, in order for people to choose to farm a particular item when they
became agririan, they must have liked eating it when they found it in the
wild!

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Nann
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Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare

Tracy Johnson - 12 Jul 2004 19:06 GMT
> > At the same time, the things that the follow-up posts said aren't really
> > true. People who follow low-carb diets are much more enlightened that it's
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> more natural state, but it fails in the attempt to claim these things should
> not be eaten at all.

I'm not actually 100% in favour of Ray's arguments because I'm not an
evolutionist, I'm a Creationist, and so buying into any argument about the
Paleothic era is not something I'm likely to do.

Having said that, I was trying to point out that there was a bit of
*over*reaction to his statements, and that there were a lot of things humans
simply didn't eat way back when -- and certainly not in the forms we eat
them now.

Potatoes are an interesting example of something that our ancestors did eat,
as you rightly point out... but potatoes then had not been genetically
altered to be sweeter, much bigger, etc., etc. If you consider just the size
of the potato and hear arguments along the lines that our ancestors ate 2
potatoes a day every day and they didn't gain weight, or some such thing,
well, porportionally speaking that was a fairly different thing than if we
ate two potatoes a day. But we don't consider that and then we pay a high
price in terms of blood sugar and therefore obesity.

I don't really want to argue the point too much, but I do think that there
is a tendency to discount the science behind low-carb dieting and that some
of what Ray and other researchers in the low-carb world are saying needs to
be considered more carefully. I just thought that, understandable though it
may have been, it was a little unfortunate that his comments were tossed out
so quickly.

Tracy
Ray Audette - 13 Jul 2004 07:51 GMT
> I disagree with the idea that what Ray is promoting is how the human species
> ate before processed foods came along.  

See:
"Hominid Dietary Selection Before Fire."
Current Anthropology Vol. 25, No. 2 April 1984) 151-68.
  Explains the constraints on human diet without fire.

Grain without the chemistry is indigestable consisting of flour, water
and fiber ( in French "papier mache"). It is not eaten by any species
of primate.  The relationship between grain and cancer has been known
since 1843 when it was discovered that epidemological cancer rates
matched grain consumption everywhere in the world by the U of Paris
Medical School ( grain was the first idenified carcinogen being 120
years more mathmatically obvious than cigarettes).  The reason for
this was only discovered in 2002 in Sweden ( google acrlyamides)when a
single slice of bread was assigned an Ames number of 300 ( cancer
ranking)- more than a full pack of cigarettes.

Potatoes are also undigestable raw yeilding less than 10% of their
nutritional value when eaten this way.  They are also the most
chemically contaiminated food one can buy in America ( source
Smithsonian Magazine) and contain lectins that inhibit vitamin
absorbtion leading to a particular type of blindness caused by vitamin
A deficency. The British used the potatoes to enslave the Irish just
as the Incas had forced their vanquished foes to eat them in their
surender ceremonies.

Beans ( legumes) are by definition poisonous when raw containing
pesticides produced by these types of plants in nature.  These include
neurotoxins that have been linked to Altzheimer's in the second
largest long-term nutrition study ever conducted ( U of Hawaii Medical
School.  They also contain xeno-estogens that have been linked to
abnormal sexual development in children and agressive forms of
estrogen dependent cancers.

As to the history of the sucess of low-carb ( Paleolithic) diets see:

Knott,C. (1998). "Changes in orangutan diet, caloric intake and
ketones in response to fluctuating fruit availability." Int J Primatol
19: 1061-1079.
Seems apes have been doing the Atkins thing for tens of millions of
years though I'm glad I wasn't the guy following them around for two
years waiting to catch their urine falling from the tree tops to test
with ketosticks!

If you don't like my site visit www.paleodiet.com for more information
from scientists from around the world.

Ray Audette
Author "NeanderThin"
www.NeanderThin.com
Tracy Johnson - 12 Jul 2004 16:34 GMT
Ray, just wanted to say that it's great to hear from you on this thread! I
have been following a low-carb diet for a long time and have become VERY
familiar with your name.

Interesting, re: RA following the introduction of corn... I had no clue, but
it does make sense to me. (I have PA, not RA, but it's all part and parcel,
right?)

Thanks for your comments,

Tracy

> Weight control is simple.  Only eat those things that are edible in
> nature.
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> Author "NeanderThin"
> www.NeanderThin.com
Helena - 15 Jul 2004 13:38 GMT
>>haven't seen the movie yet, just heard about it on NPR.  I look
forward to
seeing it htough!  I must admit, McDonalds has a few fairly healthy
choices
these days, much to my surprise.  Still, we only stop there when
traveling
for little pick-me-ups, like their fruit/yogurt parfait.

Nann-I agree with you about the choices out there-from dippers to
parfaits-it really makes things easier when you're trying to watch
those calories. Since all of us are so busy day to day, I'm glad
companies are paying attention to our changing lifestyles.
Nann Bell - 15 Jul 2004 15:31 GMT
> Nann-I agree with you about the choices out there-from dippers to
> parfaits-it really makes things easier when you're trying to watch
> those calories. Since all of us are so busy day to day, I'm glad
> companies are paying attention to our changing lifestyles.

In fact, I've often wondered why US McDonald's have been so short-sighted in
their attempts to attract more adult customers.  I was actually going to
write them at one point about their franchises in Italy, who are much wiser,
but they said on their website (at that time) that they wouldn't read
unsolicited letters from customers, or something to that effect.

In Italy, McDonald's usually had an assortment of about 7 salads or other
tasty vegetables.  For a reasonable price, you could get your choice of 3 of
these salads (reasonably sized servings) and a tasty roll (Italy does do
bread well!).  Being that this was Italy, you could also get a nice glass of
wine affordably.  But the salad deal was the key for us.  We prefered to eat
stuff we picked up in street produce markets or in the deli sections of
stores, but sometimes we were stuck without those options.  Much to our
surprise, McDonald's was actually a reasonable option for us at those times.

(BTW, if you ever go to Italy for a longer trip, arriving mid-April means
you'll soon hit 2 huge national holidays - April 25 and May 1.  That was when
we really got stuck on food options!)

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Nann
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Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare

Helena - 22 Jul 2004 16:56 GMT
> > Nann-I agree with you about the choices out there-from dippers to
> > parfaits-it really makes things easier when you're trying to watch
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> you'll soon hit 2 huge national holidays - April 25 and May 1.  That was when
> we really got stuck on food options!)

Great advice Nann-thanks!
 
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