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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Arthritis / March 2008OTP, and i do mean OTP, and pretty boring as well
SOOO sorry to ask this on ASA, but i'm tearing my hair out. I have a really agonizing legal kind of question related to my current book-in-progress, which is due in a week. i don't want to tie up ASA with it, but if anyone would like to tackle this for me, please let me know. Adele, you might know the answer to this. In a nutshell: I need a man to leave ( a lot of ) money or property to his illegitimate child. he dies when the child is 8, and the child is now 17 1/2. the man's intention was for the child to get the money at age 18 or when he entered college. the mother, the man's mistress, can't know about this money until now. would a so-called secret trust work, and would the trustee just dial up mom and say, hey, your son's almost 18 and here's a surprise for you! my need (as the author) is for her to suddenly have access to a lot of money now. i thought about having the man transfer expensive beachfront property into her name before his death, but she is living in a trailer and i can't think of any reason why she wouldn't have sold that property years ago and enjoyed the $$. anyhow, i'm stressing, but i'm stressing over fictional problems, so i guess that's a good thing. diane http://blog.dianechamberlain.com > SOOO sorry to ask this on ASA, but i'm tearing my hair out. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > work, and would the trustee just dial up mom and say, hey, your son's > almost 18 and here's a surprise for you! I like this idea because he could secretly make her the benifactor with the intention of all or most of the money going to the child..but he would have to specify that this is how he wants it. He would have to have his attorney carry out those wishes in the event of his death. I am not sure if this is exactly how it works in real life but I know when my grandmother received her trust there were instructions on how and what she was to do with the trust and a attorney did take care of providing the instructions. > my need (as the author) is for her to suddenly have access to a lot of > money now. i thought about having the man transfer expensive [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > diane > http://blog.dianechamberlain.com thanks, rhonda! i need to figure out if the trust could be formed (not the right word, but i'm brain dead) so that the mother of the child wouldn't know about it until the child is nearly 18. that's the sticky wicket. hugs, diane > thanks, rhonda! i need to figure out if the trust could be formed (not > the right word, but i'm brain dead) so that the mother of the child > wouldn't know about it until the child is nearly 18. that's the sticky > wicket. Easy. The man transfers the property into a trust with some other as the trustee (like a lawyer). The trustee has instructions to convey the beach house to the trailer girl upon....and then use some date or fictional event as a trigger. Gives it a Dickens sort of flair. -paul > thanks, rhonda! i need to figure out if the trust could be formed (not > the right word, but i'm brain dead) so that the mother of the child > wouldn't know about it until the child is nearly 18. that's the sticky > wicket. > > hugs, diane If he made that provision in his will, wouldn't that work? I would think he would have to designate someone to overlook it until such time that it would be turned over to the boy. On a realistic note, this is interesting, as I have a pension coming up from my job in NYC. I want to set up a trust so that whoever takes Dundee if I should pass on, would have access to that money for his keep. I want to make sure that he gets well taken care of and doesn't end up back in the bird refuge. I do have a lady who would find him a good home or keep him herself as she loves birdies, so I'm researching this kind of thing as well :) Carole carole, i've always made provisions (including financial) for the care of whatever dogs i have at the time of my death. dundee will probably outlive us all, huh? as for the will, the guy can't put any of this info in his will because he can't let his family know about his mistress and illegitimate son. tsk tsk. diane Carole, I have provisions in my will for the care of whatever pets are left when I die. My godchild is a vet tech and animal lover and will take on Steve the Cat if necessary since the dogs are passed on and I won't be getting more of them. It's something every pet owner should think about and I commend you for making arrangements for Dundee. Ann > Carole, > I have provisions in my will for the care of whatever pets are left when [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > making arrangements for Dundee. > Ann Thanks, Ann. The day I brought Dundee home, I promised him that he had a forever home and that he'd never have to go back to the bird refuge. He has blossomed into such a lovely bird since being here with me. He needs one person to look after him and love him, and intend for that to be the way of his life for as long as he's on this earth :) Carole > carole, i've always made provisions (including financial) for the care > of whatever dogs i have at the time of my death. dundee will probably [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > diane But that doesn't work under the law. A blood child, acknowledged in some way (or even unacknowledged, now with DNA testing), can dispute a will if left out of the will. It's called a pretermitted child. Only way that works in the plot is if he has an agreement with the mistress AND she decides to honor it AND the child chooses not to pursue it within the statute of limitations which only starts to run when he turns 18 OR first learns that he might be the child of X. A lot of ifs. Mom alone agreeing is not enough. A parent has no right to sign away her child's right to support, except in the case of domestic violence where the mother and or child would be in physical danger if the other parent knew where they were located. You can specifically choose to not leave an inheritance to a child, but there must be a specific statement in the will that no bequest is being left to "my child, Y." Actually, you can write a will without it. It just open the door for a contest of the will with a good chance of the child winning. It's a matter of good and tight drafting versus sloppy drafting (no, not opinionated, am I?). See - it gets convoluted. Adelle > carole, i've always made provisions (including financial) for the care > of whatever dogs i have at the time of my death. dundee will probably [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > diane But that doesn't work under the law. A blood child, acknowledged in some way (or even unacknowledged, now with DNA testing), can dispute a will if left out of the will. It's called a pretermitted child. Only way that works in the plot is if he has an agreement with the mistress AND she decides to honor it AND the child chooses not to pursue it within the statute of limitations which only starts to run when he turns 18 OR first learns that he might be the child of X. A lot of ifs. Mom alone agreeing is not enough. A parent has no right to sign away her child's right to support, except in the case of domestic violence where the mother and or child would be in physical danger if the other parent knew where they were located. You can specifically choose to not leave an inheritance to a child, but there must be a specific statement in the will that no bequest is being left to "my child, Y." Actually, you can write a will without it. It just opens the door for a contest of the will with a good chance of the child winning. It's a matter of good and tight drafting versus sloppy drafting (no, not opinionated, am I?). See - it gets convoluted. Adelle > carole, i've always made provisions (including financial) for the care > of whatever dogs i have at the time of my death. dundee will probably [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > diane But that doesn't work under the law. A blood child, acknowledged in some way (or even unacknowledged, now with DNA testing), can dispute a will if left out of the will. It's called a pretermitted child. Only way that works in the plot is if he has an agreement with the mistress AND she decides to honor it AND the child chooses not to pursue it within the statute of limitations which only starts to run when he turns 18 OR first learns that he might be the child of X. A lot of ifs. Mom alone agreeing is not enough. A parent has no right to sign away her child's right to support, except in the case of domestic violence where the mother and or child would be in physical danger if the other parent knew where they were located. You can specifically choose to not leave an inheritance to a child, but there must be a specific statement in the will that no bequest is being left to "my child, Y." Actually, you can write a will without it. It just opens the door for a contest of the will with a good chance of the child winning. It's a matter of good and tight drafting versus sloppy drafting (no, not opinionated, am I?). See - it gets convoluted. Adelle yeah, it does get convoluted. what about using a silent codicil to the will to be read in private, by the man's attorney, to only the boy and (or not to) his mother, as a will bequest statement? would that work? kate > carole, i've always made provisions (including financial) for the care > of whatever dogs i have at the time of my death. dundee will probably [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > diane But that doesn't work under the law. A blood child, acknowledged in some way (or even unacknowledged, now with DNA testing), can dispute a will if left out of the will. It's called a pretermitted child. Only way that works in the plot is if he has an agreement with the mistress AND she decides to honor it AND the child chooses not to pursue it within the statute of limitations which only starts to run when he turns 18 OR first learns that he might be the child of X. A lot of ifs. Mom alone agreeing is not enough. A parent has no right to sign away her child's right to support, except in the case of domestic violence where the mother and or child would be in physical danger if the other parent knew where they were located. You can specifically choose to not leave an inheritance to a child, but there must be a specific statement in the will that no bequest is being left to "my child, Y." Actually, you can write a will without it. It just opens the door for a contest of the will with a good chance of the child winning. It's a matter of good and tight drafting versus sloppy drafting (no, not opinionated, am I?). See - it gets convoluted. Adelle yeah, it does get convoluted. what about using a silent codicil to the will to be read in private, by the man's attorney, to only the boy and (or not to) his mother, as a will bequest statement? would that work? kate crumbs! both the will and any codicils must be read together. i just looked it up. kate >> carole, i've always made provisions (including financial) for the care >> of whatever dogs i have at the time of my death. dundee will probably [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > to be read in private, by the man's attorney, to only the boy and (or not > to) his mother, as a will bequest statement? would that work? Have never heard of a silent codicil (except in bad fiction like soaps). The codicil, along with the main will become a matter of public record which is accessible to all unless the documents are sealed (for which there must be compelling reason - is this person a celebrity?). And even when sealed, any party involved would have access. In this case, that would mean family members from whom he is trying to hide the info in the codicil, since they would be beneficiaries of the original will. Adelle > carole, i've always made provisions (including financial) for the care > of whatever dogs i have at the time of my death. dundee will probably > outlive us all, huh? Well, cockatiels are known to live for 20-25 years and he's only 8, so it's possible :)) > as for the will, the guy can't put any of this info in his will > because he can't let his family know about his mistress and > illegitimate son. tsk tsk. That's what he gets for messing around :-))) Carole not 'sticky' at all - i had a great uncle that did something very similar for his family situation he wanted the kids to stand on their own and not feel that they were necessarily 'entitled'. 'any' trust can, and is, set up under whatever conditions the originator deems to be proper. so: A) trust is set up with 'x' being the administrator - 'x' gets paid for managing things until B) the primary 'term' of the trust is met; i.e. the age requirement, or college entrance condition occurs note that under the conditions of the trust formation, neither the unwed mother, nor the eventual beneficiary may know of the trust until 'b' is in effect. then, C) the trustee notifies the beneficiary of the dispersal/use terms note - as you have described things, the mother is not the beneficiary and thus has no control over the eventual use, or dispersal, of the Moines. 'however' - since the 'child' may still be a minor [depending upon law of state the family resides in] the trust should have some provision for this - i.e. does the trustee stay on to supervise 'use' of the money, or does it fall under the control of the parental guardian? the trust should also take into account any tax ramifications that may befall the recipient- example - you mention real estate - if you used this method, when the real estate was sold there would be significant tax due as capital gains. it was an investment property, not the prime residence and so about 25% would go to taxes... if on the other hand you had the 'trust' responsible for paying expenses of education etc., the recipient wouldn't owe any taxes. now mind you, none of the above involves his will 'if' the assets or monies were put into the trust prior to his death. once the trust is in existence, it is no longer 'his' - the trust is a separate legal entity so his will wouldn't even mention it... hth paul > thanks, rhonda! i need to figure out if the trust could be formed (not > the right word, but i'm brain dead) so that the mother of the child > wouldn't know about it until the child is nearly 18. that's the sticky > wicket. > > hugs, diane > not 'sticky' at all - i had a great uncle that did something very > similar for his family situation [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] >> >> hugs, diane the trust should have some provision for this - i.e. does the trustee stay on to supervise 'use' of the money, or does it fall under the control of the parental guardian? If it weren't for the trustee , my mother would have used up all of my money that I got when I was 18. She could not touch it with out good reason and it had to be a VERY good reason. She once dipped into it and pulled out some money (lied to the trustee for its purpose) and then it reduced my trust to almost nothing. I was soooooo upset about this. > not 'sticky' at all - i had a great uncle that did something very > similar for his family situation [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] >> >> hugs, diane the trust should have some provision for this - i.e. does the trustee stay on to supervise 'use' of the money, or does it fall under the control of the parental guardian? If it weren't for the trustee , my mother would have used up all of my money that I got when I was 18. She could not touch it with out good reason and it had to be a VERY good reason. She once dipped into it and pulled out some money (lied to the trustee for its purpose) and then it reduced my trust to almost nothing. I was soooooo upset about this. i can comisserate with that, rhonda. my father was the court appointed trustee of my trust fund portion of a court settlement from injuries i sustained in an auto accident when i was 11 (father, mother, elder sister, my brother and me were all injured--kid sister hadn't been born yet.). there was no trust fund, zero, left for me by the time i was 13. my father decided to spend mine in a hurry, because my older sister got married that year when she turned 18 and her husband asked for (had to threaten to sue him) and got her her trust fund for her from him--she was afraid to ask for it, cuz she knew what my father was like. my father was angry and thought her husband got the benefit of her trust fund. my father thought it was better that he benefit rather than whomever my future husband might be--i overheard his argument with my mom. he'd already blown through his and mom's settlements. (and too, he was a compulsive gambler. so, that was just an excuse, because he did the same thing with my brother's trust fund a little later that same year. my brother was two years my junior.). no way did i intend to sue my father when i got old enough, knowing i could but also knowing it would only have wound up making my mother's and younger siblings' lives miserable. they'd have never had any peace, never heard the end to his browbeating and lamenting--about him being victimized by me. it just wasn't worth that to me, i loved my mom and sibs; and i knew it wouldn't have changed him, just intensified him. i simply wrote it off as payback for him keeping me fed, clothed and with a roof over my head through my childhood and let it go at that. kate SOOO sorry to ask this on ASA, but i'm tearing my hair out. I have a really agonizing legal kind of question related to my current book-in-progress, which is due in a week. i don't want to tie up ASA with it, but if anyone would like to tackle this for me, please let me know. Adele, you might know the answer to this. In a nutshell: I need a man to leave ( a lot of ) money or property to his illegitimate child. he dies when the child is 8, and the child is now 17 1/2. the man's intention was for the child to get the money at age 18 or when he entered college. the mother, the man's mistress, can't know about this money until now. would a so-called secret trust work, and would the trustee just dial up mom and say, hey, your son's almost 18 and here's a surprise for you! my need (as the author) is for her to suddenly have access to a lot of money now. i thought about having the man transfer expensive beachfront property into her name before his death, but she is living in a trailer and i can't think of any reason why she wouldn't have sold that property years ago and enjoyed the $$. anyhow, i'm stressing, but i'm stressing over fictional problems, so i guess that's a good thing. diane http://blog.dianechamberlain.com as i understand it, diane, different states have different probate laws. you might need to investigate those laws for the state you are using for the setting. as far as the beachfront property goes, she can be willed a life estate--meaning for the rest of her life she can live in it (and that can be set up where the estate pays for taxes, insurance and upkeep, or so that she must pay those herself), but upon her death the property reverts to the estate and whomever is designated to inherit the estate or specifically that property. now, she can legally sell her right to live in the beachfront property, but cannot sell the property itself outright, with a free and clear title. anybody nutty enough to buy a life estate is really buying nothing, except the right to live in it until she dies. and it is extreemly rare to find somebody that nutty! in order for the son to inherit at age 18, the man would have to set the will up so that some trusted "somebody" is designated to manage the estate until the boy's of the designated age to inherit. that person (a designated executor/executrix, lawyer, investment manager, custodian, trustee, or whomever) is generally paid and is entitled to be paid out of the estate for managing it until the boy is of age to inherit; and that amounts to 20% of the estate here in washington state (that percentage might be different in other states). and that same person is not permitted by law to make personal use of the remaining 80% of the estate. once to boy inherits, only the boy is entitled to determine what he wants to do with the funds and whatever else remains of the estate. she has absolutely no rights to his inheritance. so, she won't find herself with access to his inheritance, unless the 18 year-old willingly gives/grants her access. kate hmm. . . okay, what if the man, before he dies, transfers the beachfront property to his mistress in some way. he has tons of property, so i think this could be done without his family knowing. then he wouldn't own it at all once he dies. however, i would need a reason why the mistress wouldn't either sell the property until now, or would sell it earlier and invest the $$, but still opt to live in her silly rusty trailer when she has all this secret money stashed away. also, to complicate matters, she is good friends with the wife of the man--the man now being dead a decade. but of course she wouldn't let the wife or anyone know she has this money or property socked away. diane, playing with ideas a secret trust that only the attorney knows about and is really covered up well.. like renaming it as a worthless asset.. that the wife knows nothing about and has the kid getting the money secretly when he turns 18.. I just love fiction you can twist and turn it anyway you want... > hmm. . . okay, what if the man, before he dies, transfers the > beachfront property to his mistress in some way. he has tons of [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > diane, playing with ideas hmm. . . okay, what if the man, before he dies, transfers the beachfront property to his mistress in some way. he has tons of property, so i think this could be done without his family knowing. then he wouldn't own it at all once he dies. however, i would need a reason why the mistress wouldn't either sell the property until now, or would sell it earlier and invest the $$, but still opt to live in her silly rusty trailer when she has all this secret money stashed away. ***yeah it can be done without the family knowing. well, just an idea-- you can somehow cloud the title to the property so that it cannot be sold easily by her, until the cloud on the title is cleared up. (he can transfer the property with a cloud on the title; it just cannot be sold easily.) in some cases, title clouds can take years, or even decades to clean up and some clouds can never be cleared up. she can rent the property out, invest that income and still live in her rusty trailer. believe it or not, some people prefer living in trailers, when they certainly can afford to live in a house--some people hate gardening and yardwork; some prefer location; some like minimal living arrangements so that their lives are not as complicated; some like the trailer park community environment; sometimes what is familiar (a rusty trailer) is preferred when change is scary. there's a million reasons she might prefer her trailer. why does a millionaire drive around in a beat-up, rusty old truck?---happens all the time. also, to complicate matters, she is good friends with the wife of the man--the man now being dead a decade. but of course she wouldn't let the wife or anyone know she has this money or property socked away. ***well, if that's the case, she might be hiding the cash/property and staying in the trailer to avoid suspicion and to protect her son's identity or to keep her affair with her friend's husband under wraps? drastic life changes can arouse suspicions and suspicion gives rise to questions; questions give rise to more questions--then things that ordinarily wouldn't have been noticed suddenly start getting noticed. diane, playing with ideas i like the way you play.<smile> kate > hmm. . . okay, what if the man, before he dies, transfers the > beachfront property to his mistress in some way. he has tons of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > her silly rusty trailer when she has all this secret money stashed > away. There's plenty of nuts out there who do that sort of thing all the time - and even more often, perhaps, in fiction! And maybe she has good reason for doing that - if she really loved the guy it could just be sentimental grief. Or she knew it would really increase in value so was holding on to it - though managing the taxes would be an issue. Is she renting it out to tourists to provide their living expenses? Or to set aside the meny for their son to go to college? that would cover the taxes & maintenance without the big bucks selling it would bring. Or maybe some dear friend of te man & mistress is living there for minimal rent, covering taxes & upkeep but has to move on for some reason.........  SignatureNann remove the Gator cheer to email me Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare > personal use of the remaining 80% of the estate. once to boy inherits, only > the boy is entitled to determine what he wants to do with the funds and > whatever else remains of the estate. she has absolutely no rights to his > inheritance. so, she won't find herself with access to his inheritance, > unless the 18 year-old willingly gives/grants her access. hmmmmm, could it be a trust with a different executor who dies soon before the boy reaches age 18. The last resort executor could be the child's mother, who would now have access to the money, albeit not legally. If you want her to have legal access to the money, then the trust can't be exclusively for heir son. Perhaps he leaves the money in trust for the two of them, being revealed at the son's age of 17 1/2, with the stated intention of paying for the child's college, but without it being legally bound for that purpose. He might have feared that stating "college" would prevent the kid from opting for chef school or art school instead................ SignatureNann remove the Gator cheer to email me Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare > SOOO sorry to ask this on ASA, but i'm tearing my hair out. > > I have a really agonizing legal kind of question related to my current > book-in-progress, which is due in a week. i don't want to tie up ASA > with it, but if anyone would like to tackle this for me, please let me > know. Adele, you might know the answer to this. Diane; Some of the posters have good ideas for ways of explaining the sudden access to $ or the property. I've written off line. There are issues around trusts and property where atty's need to be very careful - so if you want realism as well as convenient plot explanations, there are details you should know about. I've put some in an email to you. please respond offline as this could get rather dry in details. Adelle > In a nutshell: I need a man to leave ( a lot of ) money or property to > his illegitimate child. he dies when the child is 8, and the child is [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > diane > http://blog.dianechamberlain.com thanks for all these great ideas! Adelle, I'll email you off line. I can't tell you how relieved I am to see a light at the end of this tunnel. diane > SOOO sorry to ask this on ASA, but i'm tearing my hair out. > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > diane > http://blog.dianechamberlain.com If its a lot of money, the trustee of the trust (if the mom were the trustee, she would have to know about it.) would have had to file taxes all these years. Short of killing off the child, I can't see how this could have been kept from the mother for years, but for her to get the money before the child turns eighteen. Could another distant relative of the mother, child, or the father that knows about the relationship kick off at a convenient time and leave the money? Don't know if the trustee dying and the court appointing the mother as the new trustee would work or not. Jo ack! You guys have more tolerance for this drivel than I thought. Thank you. I've just emailed the details of the story to adelle and kate so as to not send the whole group up any more blind alleys, but if anyone else wants the details emailed to them to play with, let me know. it'll ruin the book for you, though. :-( diane
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