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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Arthritis / December 2007

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Powerful Predictor of Premature Death.

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ironjustice - 05 Dec 2007 18:27 GMT
Eat your green roughage.
Lecithin has been compared to tetracycline as a .. standin.

"Lecithin therapy"
"Significantly attenuated by tetracycline, but not by penicillin"

Arthritis Rheum. 2007 Nov 29;56(12):3940-3948 [Epub ahead of print]
Links
Circulating levels of tumor necrosis factor receptors are highly
predictive of mortality in patients with rheumatoid arthritis.
Mattey DL, Glossop JR, Nixon NB, Dawes PT.
University Hospital of North Staffordshire, Hartshill, Stoke‐on‐Trent,
Staffordshire, UK, and Keele University, Keele, Staffordshire, UK.

OBJECTIVE:
To investigate whether circulating levels of soluble tumor necrosis
factor receptors (sTNFR) are predictive of mortality in rheumatoid
arthritis (RA).
METHODS:
Levels of sTNFRI and sTNFRII at study entry were quantified using
enzyme-linked immunosorbent assays in sera from 401 white patients
with RA followed up for 13 years. Patients were tracked via the
National Health Service Central Register, and the relationship between
sTNFR levels and mortality was analyzed using a Cox proportional
hazards regression model. Hazard ratios (HRs) and 95% confidence
intervals (95% CIs) were calculated.
RESULTS:
At the end of the followup period, 132 (32.9%) of 401 patients had
died. Of these, 64 (48.5%) died of cardiovascular disease (CVD).
Significant associations between all-cause mortality and baseline
levels of sTNFRI and sTNFRII were identified in men (HR 1.7 [95% CI
1.2-2.4] and HR 1.18 [95% CI 1.05-1.32], respectively) and women (HR
1.33 [95% CI 0.99-1.8] and HR 1.14 [95% CI 1.02-1.28], respectively).
Analysis including levels of both sTNFRI and sTNFRII indicated that
the sTNFRII level was the best overall predictor of mortality.
Multivariate analysis also revealed that the sTNFRII level was a
predictor of all-cause and CVD mortality independently of age, sex,
disease duration, C-reactive protein level, erythrocyte sedimentation
rate, rheumatoid factor, nodular disease, modified Health Assessment
Questionnaire score, taking CVD drugs, and smoking.
CONCLUSION:
Our data indicate that serum levels of sTNFR are powerful predictors
of mortality in RA. Elevated levels are particularly associated with
mortality due to CVD and may be useful for identifying patients at
increased risk of premature death.

PMID: 18050238 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
----------------------------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------------------
<<snip>>
The endotoxin-stimulated tumor necrosis factor-alpha release is
decreased by dilinoleoylphosphatidylcholine, the active
phosphatidylcholine (PC) species of polyenylphosphatidylcholine
(PPC).
<<snip>>

Alcohol. 2004 Aug;34(1):9-19. Related Articles, Links

Alcoholic fatty liver: its pathogenesis and mechanism of progression
to
inflammation and fibrosis.

Lieber CS.

Bronx Veterans Affairs Medical Center, Bronx, NY 10468, USA; Mount
Sinai School of Medicine, New York, NY 10029, USA.

Liver disease in the alcoholic is due not only to malnutrition but
also
to ethanol's hepatotoxicity linked to its metabolism by means of the
alcohol dehydrogenase and cytochrome P450 2E1 (CYP2E1) pathways and
the
resulting production of toxic acetaldehyde. In addition, alcohol
dehydrogenase-mediated ethanol metabolism generates the reduced form
of
nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NADH), which promotes steatosis by
stimulating the synthesis of fatty acids and opposing their
oxidation.
Steatosis is also promoted by excess dietary lipids and can be
attenuated by their replacement with medium-chain triglycerides.
Through reduction of pyruvate, elevated NADH also increases lactate,
which stimulates collagen synthesis in myofibroblasts. Furthermore,
CYP2E1 activity is inducible by its substrates, not only ethanol but
also fatty acids. Their excess and metabolism by means of this
pathway
generate release of free radicals, which cause oxidative stress, with
peroxidation of lipids and membrane damage, including altered enzyme
activities. Products of lipid peroxidation such as 4-hydroxynonenal
stimulate collagen generation and fibrosis, which are further
increased
through diminished feedback inhibition of collagen synthesis because
acetaldehyde forms adducts with the carboxyl-terminal propeptide of
procollagen in hepatic stellate cells. Acetaldehyde is also toxic to
the mitochondria, and it aggravates their oxidative stress by binding
to reduced glutathione and promoting its leakage. Oxidative stress
and
associated cellular injury promote inflammation, which is aggravated
by
increased production of the proinflammatory cytokine tumor necrosis
factor-alpha in the Kupffer cells. These are activated by induction
of
their CYP2E1 as well as by endotoxin. The endotoxin-stimulated tumor
necrosis factor-alpha release is decreased by
dilinoleoylphosphatidylcholine, the active phosphatidylcholine (PC)
species of polyenylphosphatidylcholine (PPC). Moreover, defense
mechanisms provided by peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor
alpha
and omega fatty acid oxidation are readily overwhelmed, particularly
in
female rats and also in women who have low hepatic induction of fatty
acid-binding protein (L-FABPc). Accordingly, the intracellular
concentration of free fatty acids may become high enough to injure
membranes, thereby contributing to necrosis, inflammation, and
progression to fibrosis and cirrhosis. Eventually, hepatic
S-adenosylmethionine and PCs become depleted in the alcoholic, with
impairment of their multiple cellular functions, which can be
restored
by PC replenishment. Thus, prevention and therapy opposing the
development of steatosis and its progression to more severe injury
can
be achieved by a multifactorial approach: control of alcohol
consumption, avoidance of obesity and of excess dietary long-chain
fatty acids, or their replacement with medium-chain fatty acids, and
replenishment of S-adenosylmethionine and PCs by using PPC. Progress
in
the understanding of the pathogenesis of alcoholic fatty liver and
its
progression to inflammation and fibrosis has resulted in prospects
for
their better prevention and treatment.

PMID: 15670660 [PubMed - in process]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<<snip>>
Lecithin therapy may be a useful adjuvant therapy  in patients with
severe
sepsis.
<<snip>>

Intensive Care Med. 2004 Mar 26 [Epub ahead of print] Related
Articles, Links

Effects of polyenylphosphatidylcholine on cytokines, nitrite/nitrate
levels,
antioxidant activity and lipid peroxidation in rats with sepsis.

Demirbilek S, Ersoy MO, Demirbilek S, Karaman A, Akin M, Bayraktar M,
Bayraktar
N.

Department of Anesthesiology and Reanimation, Medical School of Inonu
University, 44315, Malatya, Turkey.

OBJECTIVES.
To determine the effect of pretreatment with
polyenylphosphatidylcholine (lecithin, PPC) on plasma levels of tumor
necrosis
factor (TNF)-alpha, interleukin (IL)-6, IL-10, total nitrite/nitrate
(NOx), and
tissue levels of superoxide dismutase (SOD) and malondialdehyde (MDA)
in septic
rats.
DESIGN. Prospective, randomized, controlled animal study.
SETTING.
University laboratory.
SUBJECTS.
Forty-five Spraque-Dawley rats were divided
into three groups: group C, sham-operated; group S, sepsis; and group
P, sepsis
pretreated with PPC.
INTERVENTIONS.
Rats were made septic by cecal ligation and
puncture (CLP). Group P rats were treated with PPC (100 mg/day orally)
for 10
days before sepsis. Twenty-four hours later CLP, plasma concentrations
of
TNF-alpha, IL-6 and IL-10 and plasma levels of NOx were measured. SOD
and MDA
were determined in liver, lung and heart homogenates.
MEASUREMENTS AND MAIN
RESULTS.
All rats in group P survived during the 24-h observation time after
CLP, whereas survival rate in group S was 66.7% (10/15; P<0.05). PPC
significantly reduced plasma levels of TNF-alpha ( P=0.006), IL-6
( P=0.007),
IL-10 ( P=0.016), NOx ( P<0.001), and tissue levels of MDA ( P<0.001)
in group
P with respect to in group S. Tissue levels of SOD significantly
increased in
group P when compared with group S ( P<0.001).
CONCLUSIONS.
These results show
that PPC pretreatment exerts cumulative effects in decreasing the
levels of
cytokines, NOx, and tissue MDA concentrations, with a concomitant
increase in
survival in septic rats. Lecithin therapy may be a useful adjuvant
therapy in
controlling of the excessive production of the inflammatory cytokines
in
patients with severe sepsis.
DESCRIPTOR. SIRS/sepsis, experimental studies

PMID: 15045164 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

"PLA inhibitors including tetracyclin and the PLA substrate
phosphatidylcholine"

Int J Mol Med. 2007 Dec;20(6):913-8.Links
Phospholipase A as a potent virulence factor of Vibrio vulnificus.
Koo BS, Lee JH, Kim SC, Yoon HY, Kim KA, Kwon KB, Kim HR, Park JW,
Park BH.
Department of Biochemistry, Medical School and Institute for Medical
Sciences, Chonbuk National University, Jeonbuk 561-756, Korea.

Vibrio vulnificus infection has attracted special interest because of
its high mortality rate. However, the identification of its major
pathogenic determinant still remains obscure. In this study, a
cytolysin-negative mutant strain of V. vulnificus CVD707 was used to
determine the role of phospholipase A (PLA) in the pathogenesis of
this bacterial infection. The mutant strain caused the lysis of
erythrocytes in vitro and elevated plasma hemoglobin during the
infection in mice. Both the hemolytic and PLA activities were
dependent on calcium. Inhibition of hemolysis by PLA inhibitors
including tetracyclin and the PLA substrate phosphatidylcholine also
supports the possibility of membranous PLA as a major hemolytic
factor
in the cytolysin-deficient mutant. To identify the role of PLA in the
pathogenesis of V. vulnificus infection, the effects of tetracycline
on bacteria-induced macrophage cytotoxicity and lethality were
compared with those of penicillin, an antibiotic with no inhibitory
effect on PLA. Both the macrophage cytotoxicity and the lethality of
V. vulnificus CVD707 to mice were significantly attenuated by
tetracycline, but not by penicillin. However, bacterial counts in
culture medium and mouse blood revealed that penicillin was more
effective than tetracycline in killing bacteria under our
experimental
conditions. These results indicate that PLA activity is important in
V. vulnificus-induced cytotoxicity and lethality, suggesting a
crucial
role for PLA in the pathogenesis of V. vulnificus infection.

PMID: 17982702 [PubMed - in process]

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
ironjustice - 05 Dec 2007 19:17 GMT
On Dec 5, 10:27 am, ironjustice <teamtan...@hotmail.com>
wrote:"Lecithin therapy" <<

http://www.aids.org/atn/a-030-01.html

AL 721 is an experimental AIDS treatment derived from egg yolks. It
is
known to be safe and without serious side
effects. All available information from laboratory studies, clinical
trials, and anecdotal reports suggests that although
it is not a cure, it appears to be helpful even at severe stages of
HIV
infection.

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

> Eat your green roughage.
> Lecithin has been compared to tetracycline as a .. standin.
[quoted text clipped - 252 lines]
>
> DEAD PEOPLE WALKINGhttp://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
Hawaiian Wayne - 06 Dec 2007 00:37 GMT
> On Dec 5, 10:27 am, ironjustice <teamtan...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:"Lecithin therapy" <<
[quoted text clipped - 242 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Aloha Tom!

In an effort to get to know you other than "the guy who manages to
find and share with us an inexhausable supply of iron deficient
related Internet articles". Would you be so kind as to share with me
just WHY you do this?

Are you "iron deficient" yourself? Or is someone very close to you? If
so, do you know the exact name of the disease or illness?

I'm not trying to be anything but a curious member here who has had
the pleasure of reading and learning more from your posts than I ever
thought I would or could. Yes, I can imagine that this would or could
cause some sort of chronic pain either in your bones, muscles or
nerves. What kind of pain is it? Is it a constant dull ache or sharp
stabbing type or something else?

I'm just a curious soul who is actually starting to admire your
determination in teaching as many people as you can all you can about
this "problem". OK?

Aloha For Now,
Hawaiian Wayne
ironjustice@aol.com - 06 Dec 2007 06:47 GMT
>> On Dec 5, 4:37 pm, Hawaiian Wayne <birdie...@hotmail.com> wrote:
I'm not trying to be anything but a curious member here who has had
the pleasure of reading and learning more from your posts than I ever
thought I would or could. Yes, I can imagine that this would or could
cause some sort of chronic pain either in your bones, muscles or
nerves. What kind of pain is it? Is it a constant dull ache or sharp
stabbing type or something else? <<

Well today .. I got up and went to look for something and when I hung
my head just out there for awhile looking around .. four or five
minutes or so .. my left collar bone muscle spasmed so bad I
fkgnearfainted .. but that is today .. and it usually isn't quite as
bad as that ..

And that is only because I took a hit when I wasn't looking ..

I have never had much problem medically unless it was trauma
related ..

I'm just a curious soul who is actually starting to admire your
determination in teaching as many people as you can all you can about
this "problem". OK? <<

For sure ..

IF .. as an analogy .. YOU were to spot a scenario .. which .. FIT and
it only fit because of your .. learning.
Science and religion.

Now you are halfassed at problem solving / sherlocking and you KNOW
you are right .. and you are **sure** that the meticulous gathering of
information will prove you out .. BUT .. the information is not
FILED .. in .. the proper order in fact the files do not contain the
**word** itself .. specifically .. but en passant.

You therefore have to gather the information and place it such that it
can be accessed easily to prove or show it to anyone at anytime at
their .. pleasure and / or leisure.

Because .. ? ..

Money .. ?

No .. because it is a guy screaming into the night from pain ..

Not much more than that ..

It isn't real estate where you walk away .. it isn't selling cars
where you say .. "I don't like this sht" and go run a slush fund .. it
is a person screaming into the night ..

Not much more than that ..

Sooo .. now since iron reduction therapy has been shown to be more
effective in more diseases than any intervention in history .. my work
here is all but done ..

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

Aloha For Now,
Hawaiian Wayne

> On Dec 5, 10:27 am, ironjustice <teamtan...@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:"Lecithin therapy" <<
[quoted text clipped - 266 lines]
> Aloha For Now,
> Hawaiian Wayne
angself - 06 Dec 2007 15:34 GMT
On Dec 6, 12:47 am, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> On Dec 5, 4:37 pm, Hawaiian Wayne <birdie...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 224 lines]
>
> read more >>

I have read some of your post with some understanding and sometimes
get lost... but I hope you aren't leaving. I enjoy readin them... I
wish I had the availability to really look for this kind of info in
the right places... but they all want you to buy a membership...
yadada

if they reduce my iron though I would probably die...

I'm deficient and sometimes well all the time anemic... however lately
instead of iron supplements I've been told to take B12 instead...
perhaps there is something to that? hmmm

what about that?
angself - 06 Dec 2007 15:39 GMT
On Dec 6, 12:47 am, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> On Dec 5, 4:37 pm, Hawaiian Wayne <birdie...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 224 lines]
>
> read more >>

I might be asking to much here... but could you find some more
detailed info for me about cushings? I'm about to have the T1 cortisol
test or something by one doc... but my other 2 docs are not even
bothing with testing which kind of upsets me... even though I was on
prednisone for a year and I've taken so many steroid shots... what is
it was a tumor instead? and what is it isn't cushngs at all... but I
have all the symptoms... all except the hair on face... but I did
notice lately that on ny cheast I've been getting those things you get
right before the hair comes... you think it is a pimple but it is a
folicle type thing instead... not anything like pubs... it has been
sofy so far and I just pluck it... so anyway all the other stuff I
have... if you need  more info to do research no problem... I just
don't want on another uneeded med... and I want to loose weight and it
be effective...

if you don't want to that is fine to... it just seems you might know
where to look...

angela
ironjustice - 06 Dec 2007 22:50 GMT
On Dec 6, 7:39 am, angself <angs...@gmail.com> wrote:>  detailed info
for me about cushings? <<

Diet. You have to eat a high antioxidant diet to offset the oxidation
you have in your body.

Have you begun a high antioxidant rich diet .. ?

That is a diet which does NOT include meat.

The low-iron diet which hepatitis-c patients are using to induce
remission in their disease is the diet you want to have ..

This will be a step towards normalizing the antioxidant / oxidant ..
balance in the body.

<<snip>>
The presence of increased oxidation susceptibility in both hypo- and
hyperthyroid subjects can be confirmed by decreased paraoxanase
activity
through two different mechanisms.
<<snip>>

Serum paraoxonase activity, lipids, lipoproteins and apolipoproteins
in
patients with thyroid dysfunction
Raiszadeh F, Solati M, Arabi M, Azizi F.
Endocrine Research Center, Shaheed Beheshti University of Medical
Sciences,
Tehran, Iran

Paraoxonase is an HDL-linked enzyme, which can hydrolyze paraoxon in
vitro.
There have been some reports on its antioxidant effects in human
serum, which
inhibits LDL-c oxidation. Serum activity of this enzyme falls in
patients with
atherosclerotic coronary artery disease. Patients with thyroid
dysfunction are
more susceptible to oxidative stresses, and may show enhanced LDL-c
oxidation.
The purpose of this study was to evaluate serum paraxonase activity
and lipid
parameters in patients with hypo and hyperthyroidism.

50 hypothyroid patients, 11 men and 39 women, aged 38.9±13.4 years,
and 50
hyperthyroid patients, 20 men and 30 women, aged 42.4±14.3 years, were
studied.
For each group of patients 50 age and sex matched healthy controls
were used.
Serum paraoxonase activity was measured in fasting sera by
spectrophotometer,
measuring P-nitro phenol paraoxon after adding paraoxon to the sera.
Apolipoproteins level was determined by immunoturbidometric assay.

Hyper and hypothyroid patients did not show any significant
differences in
height, weight, and body mass index compared with the control group.
Significant reduction in serum paraoxonase activity (44.8±22.6 vs.
67±36.8
Iu/ml, P<0.001) and paraoxonase to HDL ratio (0.7±0.3 vs. 1.2±0.9,
P<0.001) was
present in hyperthyroid patients compared with the controls. In
hypothyroid
patients, lower serum paraoxonase activity (46.1±21 vs. 64.3±32.2 Iu/
ml,
P<0.05) was accompanied with lower paraoxonase to HDL ratio (0.8±0.4
vs.
1.1±0.7, P<0.05).

In hyperthyroid patients, significant reduction in serum triglyceride
(112±53
vs. 165±129 mg/dl, P<0.001), apolipoprotein A-I (136±20 vs. 153±26 mg/
dl,
P<0.001), apolipoprotein B (75±18 vs. 85±25 mg/dl, P<0.05), and
cholesterol to
HDL ratio (2.9±0.8 vs. 3.3±1.2, P<0.05) were shown to exist, as
compared with
the control group. While these patients showed no significant changes
in serum
total cholesterol, HDL-c, and LDL-c. Hypothyroid patients had
significantly
higher total cholesterol (224±69 vs. 184±41 mg/dl, P<0.001), LDL-c
(133±59 vs.
93±36 mg/dl, P<0.001), apolipoprotein B (107±36 vs. 84±23 mg/dl,
P<0.001),
cholesterol to HDL ratio (4±1.4 vs. 3.2±1.2 P<0.005), and LDL to HDL
ratio
(2.3±1.1 vs. 1.7±0.9, P<0.005), and lower apoA-I to apoB ratio
(1.5±0.6 vs.
1.9±0.5, P<0.001) compared with the control group. Serum levels of T4
in both
groups were inversely correlated with total cholesterol, LDL, apo A-I,
apo B,
and cholesterol to HDL and LDL to HDL ratios.

Hyperthyroidism accelerates mithochondrial oxidative metabolism,
resulting in
increased free radical production and lipid peroxidation. The
increased
oxidative stress causes higher consumption of antioxidant substances,
including
paraoxanase enzyme in hyperthyroid subjects. Decreased paraoxanase
activity in
hypothyroid subjects is attributable to the presence of high
cholesterol and
decreased LDL-receptor activity as strong pro-oxidant factors that
favor
increased antioxidant consumption. The presence of increased
oxidation
susceptibility in both hypo- and hyperthyroid subjects can be
confirmed by
decreased paraoxanase activity through two different mechanisms.

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

> On Dec 6, 12:47 am, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 246 lines]
>
> angela
Hawaiian Wayne - 07 Dec 2007 02:55 GMT
> On Dec 6, 7:39 am, angself <angs...@gmail.com> wrote:>  detailed info
> for me about cushings? <<
[quoted text clipped - 259 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Aloha Tom!

You know, I'm thankful that you seemed, for the most part, to take my
questioning and purely curious inquiries in the way they were meant. I
do have to admit my ignorance when it comes to this topic even though
I do make it through about halfway of your postings before my once
very "pays attention to detailed" but now has started to slowly turn
to mushy grey mattered brain starts drifting off into a sort of stream
of consciousness segway to Never-never-land.

As far as your pain levels go, what you are trying to convey to me is
that they sometimes )or most times) so bad that you literally wake
from a dead sleep and find yourself "screaming in the night"?  Well,
hell.  Sounds to me like you belong to this group more than some. I
haven't done that for about 5 years now, I only wake from the pain
lately. And that's usually due to me forgetting to take one or the
other types of medications that I should at "bedtime".

I'm genuinely sorry to hear that you are suffering so much Tom. I
honestly had absolutely NO IDEA and simply had to ask you in plain
English with the hopes of a plain answer. Granted, your style of
writing is really quite good and I don't know if you know this or not,
but the WAY you write seems to latch onto a person's mind and keeps
their attention somehow. Forgive me if this doesn't come out the way
it should, but your style is almost....entertaining.

Again, thanks for answering. I hope you keep up the good work. It
seems you have a "following" here and whether or not I helped get a
response/question for you. I sincerely hope you can help angself with
her inquiries. I think it's GREAT that there are others out there who
can relate with you and even though I wish this world didn't have a
thing such as pain in any way shape or form, at least one thing is for
sure about THIS GROUP.

Those who feel they are alone with their ailments who find their way
here soon find that maybe they aren't so bad off and they CERTAINLY
aren't ALONE. Somehow, someway we all seem to find comfort in knowing
that others are the same as us. I guess the 'saying' below is true!

"Misery really does love company."

One thing I didn't understand in your response that seems to have
confused another member also is this:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sooo .. now since iron reduction therapy has been shown to be more
effective in more diseases than any intervention in history... my work
here is all but done  ..."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are you saying that, other than the olden day's way of "bloodletting",
the "medical professionals" are actually practicing reducing the iron
in the blood of their patients?!?!?  Hell, there are MORE people who
suffer from some form of anemia, including myself, that I'd think this
would be a VERY dangerous road to go down.  Man oh man!

WE Love Ya Tom!

Aloha Just For Now,
Hawaiian Wayne
ironjustice - 07 Dec 2007 03:45 GMT
On Dec 6, 6:55 pm, Hawaiian Wayne <birdie...@hotmail.com> wrote:>
As far as your pain levels go, what you are trying to convey to me is
that they sometimes )or most times) so bad that you literally wake
from a dead sleep and find yourself "screaming in the night"?  <<

Noo .. that isn't what I said.
The reason I am here is .. because .. OF .. 'the pain involved in
disease' ..

NOT .. my .. pain ..

If people with disease were just slightly .. inconvenienced .. I would
not be here.

On Dec 6, 6:55 pm, Hawaiian Wayne <birdie...@hotmail.com> wrote:>
Sounds to me like you belong to this group more than some.<<

My pain is just as of late and that is trauma oriented .. and is NOT
something which I've had or have been having .. it is something ..
new ..
I am healthy .. usually as a horse ..

On Dec 6, 6:55 pm, Hawaiian Wayne <birdie...@hotmail.com> wrote:  Are
you saying that, other than the olden day's way of "bloodletting",the
"medical professionals" are actually practicing reducing the iron in
the blood of their patients?!?!?  <<

Yes ..

Hell, there are MORE people who suffer from some form of anemia,
including myself, that I'd think this
would be a VERY dangerous road to go down.  Man oh man! <<

This is a study recently done in which THESE people who are considered
to BE .. one in five .. 'anemic' .. HAVE in fact 92% with free
floating iron in their bodies.
Sooo .. if there is free floating iron .. that means those people who
have been diagnosed for the last hundred years .. "iron deficiency" ..
are / were in FACT .. not iron deficienct.     "

"Non-transferrin-bound iron was present in 92% in advanced diabetes"

It is a failure to USE the iron that IS .. there .. that IS .. there.

No iron **deficiency** ..

And giving iron to someone to TREAT this 'apparent' iron deficient
anemia has been shown to increase infection and lead the researchers
to question whether or not they have been "hastening the deaths" of
their patients.

Vitamin C as been shown to be an effective treatment for anemia.

"NTBI (non-transferrin-bound iron ) was commonly present in
diabetes: 59% in newly diagnosed diabetes and 92% in advanced
diabetes"

Diabetes Care. 2006 May;29(5):1090-5. Related Articles, Links

Common presence of non-transferrin-bound iron among patients with
type
2 diabetes.

Lee DH, Liu DY, Jacobs DR Jr, Shin HR, Song K, Lee IK, Kim B, Hider
RC.

Department of Preventive Medicine, School of Medicine, Kyungpook
University, 101 Dongin-dong, Jung-gu, Daegu, Korea 700-422.
lee...@knu.ac.kr.

OBJECTIVE:
Recently, we reported increased cardiovascular disease
mortality among supplemental vitamin C users with type 2 diabetes in
a
prospective cohort study. Because vitamin C may cause oxidative
stress
in the presence of redox active iron, we hypothesized that
non-transferrin-bound iron (NTBI), a form of iron susceptible to
redox
activity, may be present in patients with type 2 diabetes.
RESEARCH DESIGN AND METHODS:
We measured serum NTBI levels using
high-performance liquid chromatography in 48 patients with known
diabetes (at least 5 years duration since diagnosis), 49 patients
with
newly diagnosed diabetes, and 47 healthy control subjects (frequency
matched on age and sex).
RESULTS:
NTBI was commonly present in
diabetes: 59% in newly diagnosed diabetes and 92% in advanced
diabetes.
Mean NTBI values varied significantly between the three groups, with
the highest values being observed in patients with known diabetes and
the lowest in the control subjects (0.62 +/- 0.43 vs. 0.24 +/- 0.29
vs.
0.04 +/- 0.13 mumol/l Fe). Serum total iron or percent transferrin
saturation were very similar among the three groups, yet NTBI was
strongly associated with serum total iron (r = 0.74, P < 0.01) and
percent transferrin saturation (r = 0.70, P < 0.01) among the
patients
with known diabetes.
CONCLUSIONS:
Consistent with our hypothesis, these
data demonstrate the common existence of NTBI in type 2 diabetic
patients with a strong gradient with severity. Prospective cohort
studies are required to clarify the clinical relevance of increased
NTBI levels.

PMID: 16644642 [PubMed - in process]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Treatment using vitamin C ..  cures the anemia.

Nephrol Dial Transplant 1998 Nov;13(11):2867-72

A parallel, comparative study of intravenous iron versus intravenous
ascorbic acid for erythropoietin-hyporesponsive anaemia in
haemodialysis
patients with iron overload.

Tarng DC, Huang TP
Department of Medicine, Veterans General Hospital, Taipei, Taiwan.

BACKGROUND:
Functional iron deficiency may develop and cause
erythropoietin resistance in haemodialysis patients with iron
overload.
Controversy remains as to whether intravenous iron medication can
improve this
hyporesponsiveness due to decreased iron availability, or whether iron
therapy will
aggravate haemosiderosis.
Intravenous administration of ascorbic acid has been shown to
effectively circumvent resistant anaemia associated with iron
overload
in a small preliminary study. To elucidate further the possible
mechanisms
of this resistance, a parallel, comparative study was conducted to
compare the
effects of intravenous iron and ascorbate therapies in iron-
overloaded
haemodialysis patients.
METHODS:
Fifty haemodialysis patients with serum ferritin of
500 microg/l were randomly divided into two protocols.
They were further stratified into controls (Control I, n = 11)
and intravenous iron group (IVFE, n = 15) in protocol I;
and into controls (Control II, n = 12) and intravenous
ascorbic acid group (IVAA, n = 12) in protocol II.
Controls had a haematocrit of > 30% and did not receive any
adjuvant therapy.
IVFE and IVAA patients were hyporesponsive to erythropoietin and
functionally iron deficient.
Ferric saccharate (100 mg dose) was administered intravenously
postdialysis on five consecutive dialysis sessions in the first 2
weeks;
and ascorbic acid (300 mg dose) thrice a week for 8 weeks.
Red cell and iron metabolism indices were
examined before and following therapy.
RESULTS:
Mean values of haematocrit and transferrin saturation were
significantly
lower, and erythropoietin dose was higher in IVFE and IVAA patients
compared to controls.
Intravenous iron therapy neither improved erythropoiesis nor reduced
erythropoietin dose during 12 weeks.
Iron metabolism indices significantly increased at 2 and 6
weeks, but decreased at 12 weeks returning to the baselines.
In contrast, mean haematocrit significantly increased from 25.8+/-0.5
to
30.6+/-0.6% with a concomitant reduction of 20% in erythropoietin
dose
after 8 weeks of ascorbate therapy.
Serum ferritin modestly fell but with no statistical significance.
The enhanced erythropoiesis paralleled a rise in transferrin
saturation
from 27+/-3 to 48+/-6% and serum iron from 70+/-11 to 107+/-19
microg/dl (P<0.05).
CONCLUSIONS:
Short term intravenous iron therapy cannot resolve the
issue of functional iron deficiency in haemodialysis patients with
iron
overload.
Intravenous administration of ascorbic acid not only facilitates iron
release from storage sites, but also increases iron utilization in
the
erythron.
Our study draws attention to a potential adjuvant therapy,
intravenous
ascorbic acid, to treat erythropoietin-hyporesponsive anaemia in
iron-
overloaded patients.

Publication Types:

Clinical trial
Randomized controlled trial
PMID: 9829492, UI: 99044957

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

> WE Love Ya Tom!
>
> Aloha Just For Now,
> Hawaiian Wayne

> > On Dec 6, 7:39 am, angself <angs...@gmail.com> wrote:>  detailed info
> > for me about cushings? <<
[quoted text clipped - 259 lines]
>
> > - Show quoted text -
d'huit - 07 Dec 2007 21:25 GMT
On Dec 6, 6:55 pm, Hawaiian Wayne <birdie...@hotmail.com> wrote:>
As far as your pain levels go, what you are trying to convey to me is
that they sometimes )or most times) so bad that you literally wake
from a dead sleep and find yourself "screaming in the night"?  <<

Noo .. that isn't what I said.
The reason I am here is .. because .. OF .. 'the pain involved in
disease' ..

NOT .. my .. pain ..

<snip>

<snip>

My pain is just as of late and that is trauma oriented .. and is NOT
something which I've had or have been having .. it is something ..
new ..
I am healthy .. usually as a horse ..

***it figures and i thought as much, rustyrump.  sadly, if you really knew
what you were talking about, from firsthand experience and/or formal medical
training, you wouldn't be espousing your drivel to anybody and everybody
who'd listen to you; especially to those who are unfortunate enough to be
afflicted by painful disease and are uninformed about your chronic
compulsive ego-trip and your mindlessly chronic iron obsession.

you are not a medical doctor, nor a medical professional of any kind.  you
are not a medical researcher--you just read professional research you find
on the web and you read badly at that.  you have no formal training, but are
a "sophomore" in the truest original meaning of that greek term--a
self-taught "wise fool"--meaning, you can read and understand just enough
knowledge to do damage and to be dangerous.

you too often cannot even understand the fundamentals of the articles and
studies you do post and too frequently draw erroneous and dangerous
conclusions from the data you read and post.  you too frequently take
specific data and specific information and over-generalize with it, which
can be a very reckless and dangerous thing to do.  you too often draw
correlations and conclusions where none exist.  you look at research in a
non-scientific way--meaning, self-servingly, you seek data/articles/studies
"only to support" your obsessive supposition that iron is at the root cause
of most illnesses, and you arrogantly ignore important data that contradicts
your obsessive paradigm.

and now, you are telling people to treat their anemia with vitamin c, when
you don't know and don't care what  the cause of their anemia is, because
you are dangerously and irresponsibly over-generalizing, yet again and are
misleading others to do the same.  YOU ARE NOT A DOCTOR -- you haven't got a
clue what strangers on a newsgroup are medically experiencing, nor what they
have clinically presented to their medical professionals.  you haven't seen
their clinical workups, tests, nor lab reports and i doubt that you would
even understand those labs if you did see them, as you have no formal
training.  therefore, you cannot know what the basis for their anemia
actually is.  and hence, your suggestion that vitamin c is an effective
treatment,  for anemia, is reprehensibly irresponsible behavior, in the
least.  get this through your mindless head--you are not qualified, in *any*
way, to analyze research, to diagnose nor to treat, nor to suggest
treatment.  somebody should sue your reckless and irresponsible butt to
enforcibly make you stop practicing medicine without a medical license!  and
anybody who listens to and acts upon your drivel is putting themselves at
personal risk, at their expense and not at yours.

kate

On Dec 6, 6:55 pm, Hawaiian Wayne <birdie...@hotmail.com> wrote:  Are
you saying that, other than the olden day's way of "bloodletting",the
"medical professionals" are actually practicing reducing the iron in
the blood of their patients?!?!?  <<

Yes ..

On Dec 6, 6:55 pm, Hawaiian Wayne <birdie...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hell, there are MORE people who suffer from some form of anemia,
including myself, that I'd think this
would be a VERY dangerous road to go down.  Man oh man! <<

This is a study recently done in which THESE people who are considered
to BE .. one in five .. 'anemic' .. HAVE in fact 92% with free
floating iron in their bodies.
Sooo .. if there is free floating iron .. that means those people who
have been diagnosed for the last hundred years .. "iron deficiency" ..
are / were in FACT .. not iron deficienct.     "

"Non-transferrin-bound iron was present in 92% in advanced diabetes"

It is a failure to USE the iron that IS .. there .. that IS .. there.

No iron **deficiency** ..

And giving iron to someone to TREAT this 'apparent' iron deficient
anemia has been shown to increase infection and lead the researchers
to question whether or not they have been "hastening the deaths" of
their patients.

Vitamin C as been shown to be an effective treatment for anemia.
ironjustice - 08 Dec 2007 01:12 GMT
On Dec 7, 1:25 pm, "d'huit" <threeceda...@comcast2.net> wrote:somebody
should sue your reckless and irresponsible butt to enforcibly make you
stop practicing medicine without a medical license!  <<

You talk the big walk ..

But first .. why don't you point out .. where I offered .. "medical
advice" ..

The thread isn't very long .. point it out ..

UNLESS it was another tack to attempt to attack by  .. lying .. ?

The thread is very short .. point it out ..

therefore, you cannot know what the basis for their anemia actually
is.  and hence, your suggestion that vitamin c is an effective
treatment,  for anemia, is reprehensibly irresponsible behavior, <<

Vitamin C .. isn't a treatment for .. anemia .. ?

I'm surprised ..

I included an article to show it IS a treatment for .. anemia.

I could include a few more articles which show vitamin C to be a
treatment for anemia .. but I believe you have seen those already ..
haven't .. ya ..

YOU .. included nothing but ramblings .. "vitamin C bad .. bad bad
vitamin C" ..

On Dec 7, 1:25 pm, "d'huit" <threeceda...@comcast2.net> wrote: at
their expense and not at yours. <<

There is the key point .. theirs .. NOT .. yours .. so .. rather than
making yourself .. EVERYONES' .. voice .. why don't you just ..
STFU .. because I'm sure **all** on these lists are JUST as competent
as yourself .. "vitamin C bad .. bad bad vitamin C"

And they don't need the **questionable** help of someone such as
yourself."vitamin C bad .. bad bad vitamin C"

Moooo .. "vitamin C bad .. bad bad vitamin C"

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
Joan Carter - 08 Dec 2007 02:59 GMT
Tommy babbled as usual:

>There is the key point .. theirs .. NOT .. yours .. so .. rather than
>making yourself .. EVERYONES' .. voice .. why don't you just ..
>STFU .. because I'm sure **all** on these lists are JUST as competent
>as yourself .. "vitamin C bad .. bad bad vitamin C"

I do wish you would stick to one address, Iron Brain, I have to
keep kill-filing you.

Listen people, pay him no heed, he knows not of what he prattles.

Plonk again.

Joan
ironjustice - 08 Dec 2007 03:19 GMT
On Dec 7, 6:59 pm, Joan Carter <spamf...@sentex.ca> wrote:Listen
people, pay him no heed, he knows not of what he prattles. <<

Isn't it a coincidence she would come onto this thread .

She TOO said .. "vitamin C bad .. bad bad vitamin C" ..

Meet Joan a .. Canadian nurse .. who told everyone NOT to use
antioxidants when they have open festering ulcers .. when in FACT ..
that is **precisely** what they are using .. NOW.

Sooo .. strike for the nurse .. and homerun for .. **me** ..

Merit ..

Heh .. heh ..

Must be the .. roids ..

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

> Tommy babbled as usual:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Joan
d'huit - 08 Dec 2007 07:07 GMT
On Dec 7, 6:59 pm, Joan Carter <spamf...@sentex.ca> wrote:Listen
people, pay him no heed, he knows not of what he prattles. <<

Isn't it a coincidence she would come onto this thread .

She TOO said .. "vitamin C bad .. bad bad vitamin C" ..

Meet Joan a .. Canadian nurse .. who told everyone NOT to use
antioxidants when they have open festering ulcers .. when in FACT ..
that is **precisely** what they are using .. NOW.

Sooo .. strike for the nurse .. and homerun for .. **me** ..

Merit ..

Heh .. heh ..

Must be the .. roids ..

Who loves ya.
Tom

we're still waiting for you to test your proposed elastic band theory on
yourself.  you do remember telling everybody what a good idea that elastic
band test was, don't you?. . . why are you waiting so long to test this out
on yourself?   and remember, rustyrump, when you do try that elastic band
test, on yourself, that doctors are very bad.  bad, baaaad doctors.  so,
don't go to doctors after you do test your elastic band theory on yourself.
baaaad doctors.  those doctors might want to inject you with iron, for no
other reason than just because they can, rustyrump.  they might just kill
you with iron, rustyrump, so stay away from doctors.

oh, and the darwin award is still waiting to be awarded to you when you do
use that elastic band on yourself to try out that scathingly brilliant idea
of yours.  but remember, in order to get the award you have to avoid doctors
when your limb turns black and the gangrene gets nice and ripe.  just
remember, rustyrump, that doctors = baaaad.  black and gangrene = "can't
hurt you" just like your elastic band idea that can cause a limb to go black
and have gangrene "can't hurt you".

fool.

kate
(fyi - vitamin c can and does conflict with, and/or can neutralize, certain
kinds of prescription drugs.  suggesting someone take vitamin c for anemia,
without knowing what kinds of prescriptions that person is taking nor if
there is the potential for drug conflict, is irresponsible.  one example:
if someone has anemia caused by a chronic illness, such as certain kinds of
cancer--some cancer drugs can be neutralized by vitamin c taken for anemia,
as per rustyrump's scathingly brilliant suggestion.)

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

> Tommy babbled as usual:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Joan
ironjustice - 08 Dec 2007 08:28 GMT
(fyi - vitamin c can and does conflict with, and/or can neutralize,
certain
kinds of prescription drugs. <<

Gooseberry juice bad for you .. ?

You talk like you think you know what you are talking about ..

You proclaim to be something or someone anyone .. should .. listen ..
to .. ?

Do ya .. ?

suggesting someone take vitamin c for anemia,<<

Gooseberry juice bad for you .. ?
Did I say take .. vitamin C .. ?

Show it to me ..

without knowing what kinds of prescriptions that person is taking nor
if
there is the potential for drug conflict, is irresponsible. <<

Gooseberry juice bad for you .. ?
Show it to me ..
Juice is GOOD for ya .. no matter what YOU .. say.

one example: if someone has anemia caused by a chronic illness, <<

Oh you are someone who thinks they are able to speak to such a
scientific .. subject ..

Juice is GOOD for ya.

Write that down.

such as certain kinds of cancer--some cancer drugs can be neutralized
by vitamin c taken for anemia,
as per rustyrump's scathingly brilliant suggestion.) <<

Juice is GOOD for ya.
Show where that is so .. give a cite .. that is quite the statement ..
"vitamin C with your chemo can kill you"

I believe a cite is required for a statement like that ..

"20 ml of gooseberry juice (containing 40 mg of vitamin C) three times
a week"

Woooo .. three glasses of juice a week .. wooo .. you are scaring
everyone .. don't scare everyone ..

"vitamin C bad .. bad bad vitamin C"

Food Nutr Bull 2002 Mar;23(1):94-105 Related Articles, Links

Iron-deficiency anemia in young working women can be reduced by
increasing the consumption of cereal-based fermented foods or
gooseberry juice at the
workplace.

Gopaldas T.

Tara Consultancy Services, Bangalore, India.

This efficacy for both employers and employees (young working women
18
to 23
years of age) was undertaken to determine whether culturally
acceptable
dietary
changes in lunches in the workplace and at home could bring about a
behavioral
change and improvement in their iron-deficiency anemia status.
Maximum
weight
was given to increasing consumption of iddli, a popular
cereal-based-fermented
food, or of gooseberry juice. Four small factories were selected in
periurban
Bangalore, with a sample of 302 women. The 180-day interventions were
supervised at the workplace. In unit 1 (72 women), the intervention
consisted
of iddli four times a week plus information, education, and
communication (IEC)
related to iron-deficiency anemia. Unit 2 (80 women) received 20 ml
of
gooseberry juice (containing 40 mg of vitamin C) three times a week
plus IEC
once a month. Women in unit 3 (70 women), the positive control,
received 400 mg
albendazole once plus ferrous sulfate tablets (60 mg elemental iron)
two times
a week. No IEC was given. Unit 4 (70 women) served as the negative
control and
received no intervention. The pre-post impact measures were dietary
and
nutrient intake, knowledge and practice, and hemoglobin status. In
units 1, 2,
and 3, the hemoglobin status of the women improved significantly from
11.10 to
12.30 g/dl, 11.20 to 12.70 g/dl, and 11.50 to 13.00 g/dl,
respectively.
In unit
4 there was no change: the values were 10.90 g/dl before and after
intervention. The results show that the type of workplace lunch was
of
greater
significance than IEC. Knowledge gains were impressive, but
behavioral
change
was not sustained. It was concluded that the hemoglobin levels of the
workers
can easily be improved by cost-effective workplace lunches that also
lead to
better employer-employee relations.

PMID: 11975375 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now .. screw off ya .. nutbar ..

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
d'huit - 10 Dec 2007 22:11 GMT
sooo true to form for you, rustyrump-- you are either too lazy and/or too
arrogant to do your own homework regarding anything that might contradict
your paradigm or your "beliefs".  i won't do your homework for you,
rustyrump, but i will support my statement about you having no idea what
your suggestions might mean for perfect strangers, on newsgroups, whose
medical case histories you don't know about and don't care about.

the following is taken from the sloan-kettering cancer center web site
regarding vitamin c usage:

"Do Not Take If
a.. You suffer from recurrent kidney stones
a.. You have kidney impairment or are on chronic hemodialysis
a.. You have hemochromatosis (Vitamin C increases iron absorption,
transport, and storage in the body.)
a.. You have known G6PDH (glucose-6-dehydrogenase) deficiency
a.. You are a cancer patient undergoing radiation therapy or chemotherapy
(These therapies use free radicals to kill cancer cells, and high doses of
vitamin C or other antioxidants may neutralize these free radicals and
lessen their effect)."

so, yeah, vitamin c can be bad for you, if you have a certain medical
condition, in addition to the anemia you suggested vitamin c is effective in
treating!<giving you a well-deserved bronx cheer, and wiping my chin because
it was a big and juicy one>

be forewarned, newbies and newsgroup members:  do NOT take any of
rustyrump's "suggestions" and "research" seriously, for if you do it may be
at your own peril.

kate

On Dec 7, 11:07 pm, "d'huit" <threeceda...@comcast2.net> wrote:
(fyi - vitamin c can and does conflict with, and/or can neutralize,
certain
kinds of prescription drugs. <<

Gooseberry juice bad for you .. ?

You talk like you think you know what you are talking about ..

You proclaim to be something or someone anyone .. should .. listen ..
to .. ?

Do ya .. ?

On Dec 7, 11:07 pm, "d'huit" <threeceda...@comcast2.net> wrote:
suggesting someone take vitamin c for anemia,<<

Gooseberry juice bad for you .. ?
Did I say take .. vitamin C .. ?

Show it to me ..

On Dec 7, 11:07 pm, "d'huit" <threeceda...@comcast2.net> wrote:
without knowing what kinds of prescriptions that person is taking nor
if
there is the potential for drug conflict, is irresponsible. <<

Gooseberry juice bad for you .. ?
Show it to me ..
Juice is GOOD for ya .. no matter what YOU .. say.

On Dec 7, 11:07 pm, "d'huit" <threeceda...@comcast2.net> wrote:
one example: if someone has anemia caused by a chronic illness, <<

Oh you are someone who thinks they are able to speak to such a
scientific .. subject ..

Juice is GOOD for ya.

Write that down.

On Dec 7, 11:07 pm, "d'huit" <threeceda...@comcast2.net> wrote:
such as certain kinds of cancer--some cancer drugs can be neutralized
by vitamin c taken for anemia,
as per rustyrump's scathingly brilliant suggestion.) <<

Juice is GOOD for ya.
Show where that is so .. give a cite .. that is quite the statement ..
"vitamin C with your chemo can kill you"

I believe a cite is required for a statement like that ..

"20 ml of gooseberry juice (containing 40 mg of vitamin C) three times
a week"

Woooo .. three glasses of juice a week .. wooo .. you are scaring
everyone .. don't scare everyone ..

"vitamin C bad .. bad bad vitamin C"

Food Nutr Bull 2002 Mar;23(1):94-105 Related Articles, Links

Iron-deficiency anemia in young working women can be reduced by
increasing the consumption of cereal-based fermented foods or
gooseberry juice at the
workplace.

Gopaldas T.

Tara Consultancy Services, Bangalore, India.

This efficacy for both employers and employees (young working women
18
to 23
years of age) was undertaken to determine whether culturally
acceptable
dietary
changes in lunches in the workplace and at home could bring about a
behavioral
change and improvement in their iron-deficiency anemia status.
Maximum
weight
was given to increasing consumption of iddli, a popular
cereal-based-fermented
food, or of gooseberry juice. Four small factories were selected in
periurban
Bangalore, with a sample of 302 women. The 180-day interventions were
supervised at the workplace. In unit 1 (72 women), the intervention
consisted
of iddli four times a week plus information, education, and
communication (IEC)
related to iron-deficiency anemia. Unit 2 (80 women) received 20 ml
of
gooseberry juice (containing 40 mg of vitamin C) three times a week
plus IEC
once a month. Women in unit 3 (70 women), the positive control,
received 400 mg
albendazole once plus ferrous sulfate tablets (60 mg elemental iron)
two times
a week. No IEC was given. Unit 4 (70 women) served as the negative
control and
received no intervention. The pre-post impact measures were dietary
and
nutrient intake, knowledge and practice, and hemoglobin status. In
units 1, 2,
and 3, the hemoglobin status of the women improved significantly from
11.10 to
12.30 g/dl, 11.20 to 12.70 g/dl, and 11.50 to 13.00 g/dl,
respectively.
In unit
4 there was no change: the values were 10.90 g/dl before and after
intervention. The results show that the type of workplace lunch was
of
greater
significance than IEC. Knowledge gains were impressive, but
behavioral
change
was not sustained. It was concluded that the hemoglobin levels of the
workers
can easily be improved by cost-effective workplace lunches that also
lead to
better employer-employee relations.

PMID: 11975375 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now .. screw off ya .. nutbar ..

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
ironjustice - 11 Dec 2007 00:12 GMT
On Dec 10, 2:11 pm, "d'huit" <threeceda...@comcast2.net> wrote:you are
telling people to treat their anemia with vitamin c <<

Juice is GOOD for ya.

Write that down.

Juice is GOOD for ya.

"20 ml of gooseberry juice (containing 40 mg of vitamin C) three
times
a week"

Woooo .. three glasses of juice a week .. wooo .. you are scaring
everyone .. don't scare everyone ..

"vitamin C bad .. bad bad vitamin C"

Food Nutr Bull 2002 Mar;23(1):94-105 Related Articles, Links

Iron-deficiency anemia in young working women can be reduced by
increasing the consumption of cereal-based fermented foods or
gooseberry juice at the
workplace.

Gopaldas T.

Tara Consultancy Services, Bangalore, India.

This efficacy for both employers and employees (young working women
18
to 23
years of age) was undertaken to determine whether culturally
acceptable
dietary
changes in lunches in the workplace and at home could bring about a
behavioral
change and improvement in their iron-deficiency anemia status.
Maximum
weight
was given to increasing consumption of iddli, a popular
cereal-based-fermented
food, or of gooseberry juice. Four small factories were selected in
periurban
Bangalore, with a sample of 302 women. The 180-day interventions were
supervised at the workplace. In unit 1 (72 women), the intervention
consisted
of iddli four times a week plus information, education, and
communication (IEC)
related to iron-deficiency anemia. Unit 2 (80 women) received 20 ml
of
gooseberry juice (containing 40 mg of vitamin C) three times a week
plus IEC
once a month. Women in unit 3 (70 women), the positive control,
received 400 mg
albendazole once plus ferrous sulfate tablets (60 mg elemental iron)
two times
a week. No IEC was given. Unit 4 (70 women) served as the negative
control and
received no intervention. The pre-post impact measures were dietary
and
nutrient intake, knowledge and practice, and hemoglobin status. In
units 1, 2,
and 3, the hemoglobin status of the women improved significantly from
11.10 to
12.30 g/dl, 11.20 to 12.70 g/dl, and 11.50 to 13.00 g/dl,
respectively.
In unit
4 there was no change: the values were 10.90 g/dl before and after
intervention. The results show that the type of workplace lunch was
of
greater
significance than IEC. Knowledge gains were impressive, but
behavioral
change
was not sustained. It was concluded that the hemoglobin levels of the
workers
can easily be improved by cost-effective workplace lunches that also
lead to
better employer-employee relations.

PMID: 11975375 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now .. screw off ya .. nutbar ..

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
Joan Carter - 08 Dec 2007 15:26 GMT
On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 23:07:08 -0800, Tommy Turdbrain ranted:

>Isn't it a coincidence she would come onto this thread .
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Sooo .. strike for the nurse .. and homerun for .. **me** ..

Gee, little man, I wouldn't have seen this if Kate hadn't quoted
it her reply. Kill files work well, your replies are deleted
before they even come into my computer.

But I never recall saying "bad, bad Vitamin C", not telling
people not to use anti-oxidants for open festering ulcers. I did
publish something on wound care which I know something about as I
was a wound care nurse.

But I forgot, you really don't understand what you read.

And I noted that you describe yourself as "healthy as a horse".
Well, there are horses, and then there are horses, and then there
is Tommy No Nothing.

Don't bother to reply, I won't see it.

Joan
d'huit - 10 Dec 2007 22:18 GMT
On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 23:07:08 -0800, Tommy Turdbrain ranted:

<gentle snip>
But I never recall saying "bad, bad Vitamin C", not telling
people not to use anti-oxidants for open festering ulcers. I did
publish something on wound care which I know something about as I
was a wound care nurse.

But I forgot, you really don't understand what you read.

"And I noted that you describe yourself as "healthy as a horse".
Well, there are horses, and then there are horses . . ."
<gentle snip>
Joan

you are toooo classy and too kind, joan.  i'm going to take liberties with
your statement, if you don't mind--

it should read:  "well, there are horses, and then there are horses' a.ses,
like rustyrump."

kate
ironjustice - 11 Dec 2007 00:12 GMT
On Dec 10, 2:18 pm, "d'huit" <threeceda...@comcast2.net> wrote:you are
telling people to treat their anemia with vitamin c <<

Juice is GOOD for ya.

Write that down.

Juice is GOOD for ya.

"20 ml of gooseberry juice (containing 40 mg of vitamin C) three
times
a week"

Woooo .. three glasses of juice a week .. wooo .. you are scaring
everyone .. don't scare everyone ..

"vitamin C bad .. bad bad vitamin C"

Food Nutr Bull 2002 Mar;23(1):94-105 Related Articles, Links

Iron-deficiency anemia in young working women can be reduced by
increasing the consumption of cereal-based fermented foods or
gooseberry juice at the
workplace.

Gopaldas T.

Tara Consultancy Services, Bangalore, India.

This efficacy for both employers and employees (young working women
18
to 23
years of age) was undertaken to determine whether culturally
acceptable
dietary
changes in lunches in the workplace and at home could bring about a
behavioral
change and improvement in their iron-deficiency anemia status.
Maximum
weight
was given to increasing consumption of iddli, a popular
cereal-based-fermented
food, or of gooseberry juice. Four small factories were selected in
periurban
Bangalore, with a sample of 302 women. The 180-day interventions were
supervised at the workplace. In unit 1 (72 women), the intervention
consisted
of iddli four times a week plus information, education, and
communication (IEC)
related to iron-deficiency anemia. Unit 2 (80 women) received 20 ml
of
gooseberry juice (containing 40 mg of vitamin C) three times a week
plus IEC
once a month. Women in unit 3 (70 women), the positive control,
received 400 mg
albendazole once plus ferrous sulfate tablets (60 mg elemental iron)
two times
a week. No IEC was given. Unit 4 (70 women) served as the negative
control and
received no intervention. The pre-post impact measures were dietary
and
nutrient intake, knowledge and practice, and hemoglobin status. In
units 1, 2,
and 3, the hemoglobin status of the women improved significantly from
11.10 to
12.30 g/dl, 11.20 to 12.70 g/dl, and 11.50 to 13.00 g/dl,
respectively.
In unit
4 there was no change: the values were 10.90 g/dl before and after
intervention. The results show that the type of workplace lunch was
of
greater
significance than IEC. Knowledge gains were impressive, but
behavioral
change
was not sustained. It was concluded that the hemoglobin levels of the
workers
can easily be improved by cost-effective workplace lunches that also
lead to
better employer-employee relations.

PMID: 11975375 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now .. screw off ya .. nutbar ..

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
ironjustice - 07 Dec 2007 04:32 GMT
On Dec 6, 7:39 am, angself <angs...@gmail.com> wrote:detailed info
for me about cushings? <<

This study shows increased iron in hyperthyroidism.

Clin Investig 1993 Dec;72(1):26-9

Evaluation of increased serum ferritin levels in patients with
hyperthyroidism.
Kubota K, Tamura J, Kurabayashi H, Shirakura T, Kobayashi I
Department of Medicine, Kusatsu Branch Hospital, Gunma, Japan.

To further elucidate the mechanism of increased serum ferritin levels
in
hyperthyroidism, the changes in erythrocytes and serum iron and total
iron-binding capacity levels were examined in addition to serum
ferritin levels
in 13 hyperthyroid patients.
The mean values of hemoglobin, red blood cells,
and packed cell volume were increased by antithyroid therapy.
While the serum levels of iron did not change, those of total iron-
binding
capacity increased significantly after achieving a euthyroid state.
Increased serum ferritin levels returned to normal through antithyroid
therapy.
Furthermore, the serum ferritin levels of four anemic patients were
significantly higher than those of nine nonanemic patients.
Thus it is concluded that the increase in serum
ferritin levels in patients with hyperthyroidism may be due to the
direct
action of thyroid hormones on its synthesis, while in some cases
complicated
with anemia impaired iron utilization by erythropoietic cells may also
be
involved.

PMID: 8136612, UI: 94184112
-------------------------------------------------------

IUBMB Life 2001 Feb;51(2):105-9
Antioxidants in the treatment of Graves disease.
Guerra LN, Moiguer S, Karner M, de Molina MC, Sreider CM, Burdman
JA
Endocrinology Unit, Hospital Israelita Ezrah, Buenos Aires,
Argentina.
[Medline record in process]
An antioxidant mixture (LAROTABE) was evaluated in the treatment of
Graves disease.
Fifty-six hyperthyroid patients were treated with   methimazol (MMI)
(A),
LAROTABE (B), or MMI plus LAROTABE (C).
According to a clinical score, improvement was obtained at 8 weeks
in
A and 4 weeks in B and C.
Group A diminished their thyroid hormone   concentration to normal
levels,
while patients with LAROTABE did not reduce T3 and T4 unless
MMI was introduced.
Hyperthyroid patients had   increased malondialdehyde (MDA) content
and
SOD activity and decreased catalase activity compared to controls.
Within group A, MDA decreased   to control values while SOD was
reduced
38.3% and catalase increased 21.6%.
Similar results were obtained for MDA and for both enzymes after
treatment with
LAROTABE.
Signs and symptoms of Graves disease  might be related to an
increase in free radicals; antioxidants could   be a new therapeutic
tool to
improve the clinical manifestation of   this illness.
PMID: 11463161, UI: 21355441

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

> On Dec 6, 12:47 am, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 219 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
ironjustice - 07 Dec 2007 06:20 GMT
On Dec 6, 7:39 am, angself <angs...@gmail.com> wrote:On Dec 6, 7:39
am, angself <angs...@gmail.com> wrote:detailed info for me about
cushings? <<

So if injected iron increases corticosterone .. would free floating
iron ALSO increase corticosterone .. ?

"Corticosterone increased 50% following 1 injection of iron but more
than 200% following a second injection of iron"

Proceedings of the Society for Experimental Biology and Medicine, Vol
185, 413-419, Copyright (c) 1987 by Society for Experimental Biology and
Medicine

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ORIGINAL ARTICLES

Iron-induced accumulation of hepatic metallothionein: the lack of
glucocorticoid involvement
CC McCormick

The process(es) by which parenteral iron effects the accumulation of
hepatic metallothionein (MT) is not known. The present study examined
glucocorticoids as potential mediators of this process.
Chicks were given either one injection (ip) of iron (+1FE) at 10 mg Fe/
kg, two injections of iron (+2FE) given 24 hr apart, or a single
injection of saline.
Plasma corticosterone was evaluated at various times following the
last injection.
Plasma corticosterone increased approximately 50% following +1FE but
more than 200% at 2 and 4 hr following a second injection of iron
(+2FE).
Plasma zinc showed a transient increase followed by a considerable
depression.
Coincidentally, the accumulation (determined at 24 hr) of zinc MT in
liver of +2FE chicks was three times higher than that of +1FE chicks.
In another experiment, markedly greater changes, at similar time
intervals, in plasma corticosterone were effected by multiple
subcutaneous injections of adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH) (either
5 IU ACTH or 20 IU ACTH/kg). Subsequent analysis of hepatic zinc MT
showed only minor changes as a result of ACTH injections.
These results indicate that a change in the plasma glucocorticoid
corticosterone is not a primary component in the process(es) by which
parenteral iron effects an increase in hepatic zinc MT.

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
ironjustice - 07 Dec 2007 15:03 GMT
On Dec 6, 10:20 pm, ironjustice <teamtan...@hotmail.com>
wrote:"Corticosterone increased 50% following 1 injection of iron but
more than 200% following a second injection of iron" <<

One might think with the sheer number of iron injections they have
been dishing out .. we might have heard MORE about these effects of
iron injections ON these levels / markers of disordered thyroid
function .. ?

Doesn't seem to be many more studies as to these adverse effects ..

I wonder .. why .. ?

One would think these adverse effects are ... transient .. ? .. or do
they just toss these mice to the cats and not wonder or care about
long term effects .. ?

Since working dogs in Europe have shown fifty percent show siderosis
one might think the thyroid function of dogs in Europe might show a
high percentage of thryoid disorder.

The vets DO get paid by treating animals .. and they DO get paid by /
per injection so one cannot take any work or word they use with
anything but proabable bias.

Soo.. since the STATS have shown a very high DECREASE in the SALE of
antidepressant drugs WHEN they lowered the supplemental iron of their
foodstuffs .. IE: Denmark refuses to add iron to their foods.

Soo .. this is just like the findings of decreased oxygen usage by
bloodletting and increased health and quality of life in those with
COPD by bloodletting.
The warehousemen 'noticed' the people were not using any oxygen
bottles and wondered .. why .. ?
They found these patients were being bloodlet and that was decreasing
their NEED for bottled oxygen.

This study out of Denmark which shows such a high decrease in
antidepressant drugs PARALLELING the fall of added iron to the
foodstuffs was .. noticed .. by the lack of SALES .. of ..
antidepressants.

So does iron supplemention cause .. depression .. ?

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

> On Dec 6, 7:39 am, angself <angs...@gmail.com> wrote:On Dec 6, 7:39am, angself <angs...@gmail.com> wrote:detailed info for me about
>
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
>
> DEAD PEOPLE WALKINGhttp://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
angself - 07 Dec 2007 18:01 GMT
> On Dec 6, 10:20 pm, ironjustice <teamtan...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:"Corticosterone increased 50% following 1 injection of iron but
[quoted text clipped - 103 lines]
>
> > DEAD PEOPLE WALKINGhttp://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

I have been on iron for so long trully... and recently about 3 or 4
months ago they made me switch to b12 telling me it was basically the
same thing... i've suffered major depression... rhuematic problems...
etc all the above... and even at this moment think I might have copd
of pd at least

perhaps there is something about iron...

interesting.
ironjustice - 08 Dec 2007 02:06 GMT
>>On Dec 7, 10:01 am, angself <angs...@gmail.com> wrote: I have been on iron for so long trully... and
recently about 3 or 4 months ago they made me switch to b12 telling me
it was basically the same thing... <<

??? The same thing .. ?
They might be referring to the studies which show the addition of
folate to the diet raises the iron and B12 but B12 and iron BEING ..
'"the same" ,, I haven't heard before.

Orrr .. he is talking about the thirty or so different anemias and he
is now JUST starting his countdown to find which .. **vitamin** ..
IS .. missing .. / treats the anemia .. ?

>>On Dec 7, 10:01 am, angself <angs...@gmail.com> wrote: i've suffered major depression... rhuematic problems...
etc all the above... and even at this moment think I might have copd
of pd at least <<

Everyone of those problems can be chased to excess iron and / or
increased oxidation and the fact your doctor HAS had you on iron for
SO .. long .. means .. ? .. chances are good your doctor is one of the
braindead IN that profession .. much like the ... lying pediatricians.

Stupid is .. as stupid .. does ..

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
 
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