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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Arthritis / October 2007

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Knees are so bad--need advice/support

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MZB - 24 Oct 2007 18:35 GMT
I'm frustrated and seeking some advice/support

About 8 years ago, my knees both started hurting quite badly after I overdid
some treadmill work and jogging. It has never been the same since.

Until recently, its been mostly the right knee acting up. Anyway, an MRI a
few years ago showed a torn meniscus and x-rays showed arthritis. After a
year with relatively minor problems things suddenly got bad in August. I
went to see the orthopedic surgeon a few weeks ago. The news was not good.
He says the x-rays and my type of symptoms point to some kind of
inflammatory arthritis as the main cause of my pain (and it's bad in both
knees). He said eventually we can do a scope when the bad days outnumber the
good days but he didn't think the scope would be all that great (but it
would probably help a bit). Apparently it won't really arrest the disease.
Down the road, we are looking at TKR. He'd like to wait as long as possible;
I am a 61 yr.old male.

Since then (really in the last week) both knees have gotten much worse.
Walking is very painful and even not walking still hurts (feels like razor
blades are in my knees). I'm going to give it another month (in the past
this problem has waxed and waned but each time the waxing hurts more and the
waning is not as good as the previous time). I'm a college prof. and if
things don't improve, I'll schedule the scope for mid-December. Right now it
really feels different and I suspect it might not get better. The pain is
just greater and more intense and the inability to walk is terrible. I'm
trying the tylenol stuff and if that doesn't work better it looks like
NSAIDS (OTC ibuprofin) but I fear the side effects from the NSAID..

I really don't know what to ask, but it is frustrating. Have any of you had
the scope clean out surgery and did it help? Any suggestions?

MZB
Joan Carter - 24 Oct 2007 19:03 GMT
>He says the x-rays and my type of symptoms point to some kind of
>inflammatory arthritis as the main cause of my pain (and it's bad in both
>knees).

If there is inflammatory arthritis involved you need to see a
rheumatologist for a definitive diagnosis and the correct
medication to avoid further damage.
MZB - 25 Oct 2007 02:45 GMT
That's a good idea.

I'll look into that ASAP

MB

>>He says the x-rays and my type of symptoms point to some kind of
>>inflammatory arthritis as the main cause of my pain (and it's bad in both
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> rheumatologist for a definitive diagnosis and the correct
> medication to avoid further damage.
Nann Bell - 25 Oct 2007 13:25 GMT
>> He says the x-rays and my type of symptoms point to some kind of
>> inflammatory arthritis as the main cause of my pain (and it's bad in both
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> rheumatologist for a definitive diagnosis and the correct
> medication to avoid further damage.

absolutely, I second that, though you've already said you will look into it.  
As the orthopod indicated, a scope won't do anything to stop the inflammatory
process.  If the rheumatologist recommends meds, give them a try. For that
matter, try the ibuprofen now.  As we often say around here, fear the
disease, not the medications. Unless you have a a specific problem that
increases the risk factors of a med for you, the long-range effects of
untreated inflammatory arthritis are far worse than the generally reversible
side effects of the medications.

And while you are waiting to get in to see a rheumatologist, are you using
heat and/or ice on your knees?  Have you tried any muscle or capsacin (sp?)
salves?  If not, give them a shot.  What works best varies from person to
person so you have to experiment and see what is most helpful for you.  It
won't arrest the disease, but can make getting through the day a bit less
difficult for now.

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Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare

california_chief - 25 Oct 2007 04:17 GMT
> About 8 years ago, my knees both started hurting quite badly after I overdid
> some treadmill work and jogging. It has never been the same since.
>
>After a year with relatively minor problems things suddenly got bad in
August.
> I went to see the orthopedic surgeon a few weeks ago.
> Down the road, we are looking at TKR. He'd like to wait as long as possible;
> I am a 61 yr.old male.
>
> Since then (really in the last week) both knees have gotten much worse.

(1)  Get rid of any doctor who says "wait as long as possible."   He's
living in the Ice Age.  Today it's all about Quality Of Life, and the sooner
a total joint replacement is done, the sooner your Quality Of Life is going
to improve - not a moment sooner.  I've met people in their 20's who have
had 1 or more TJRs (1 lady of 29 had 3).

(2)  Make an appointment with a rheumatologist and get a definite diagnosis.
A rheumy is a doctor who specializes in arthritis.

(3)  You made no mention of pain medications and anti-inflammatory meds.
Did that dummy orthopedic surgeon not prescribe anything?

... Best way to avoid nightmares?   Never argue with your spouse.
MZB - 25 Oct 2007 05:11 GMT
RE: Your point #3. I did mention meds.

I said:

I'm
trying the tylenol stuff and if that doesn't work better it looks like
NSAIDS (OTC ibuprofin) but I fear the side effects from the NSAID..

>> About 8 years ago, my knees both started hurting quite badly after I
> overdid
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> ... Best way to avoid nightmares?   Never argue with your spouse.
california_chief - 25 Oct 2007 06:16 GMT
> RE: Your point #3. I did mention meds.
>
> I said:
>
> I'm trying the tylenol stuff and if that doesn't work better it looks like
> NSAIDS (OTC ibuprofin) but I fear the side effects from the NSAID..

You sure did.  I was concentrating on the first portion of your post and
missed that toward the end.

I took ibuprofin Rx (Indocin 3x50 daily) from 1977 to 2000 with no side
effects.   That's all the "Iron Age" doctors knew about.  It controlled the
pain but did nothing to slow down the damage from arthritis.

When I switched to a rheumatologist (he runs the largest clinical trials
setup in SoCal), he dropped the Indocin and ran the gaumet of the new meds.
None of them improved my condition.  Remicade was next - tried that for
almost 2 years.   I'm on Embrel and Nuprin right now but at the last
appointment the MD mentioned stopping Embrel and trying something else.
I'll see what he has in mind in about 4 weeks.

... LET THERE BE DARK!              No, that's not right.
MZB - 25 Oct 2007 20:20 GMT
Nan and Calif:

Bad day today. Tried to get an app't with the rheumit. I saw in 2002. They
said they consider me now a new patient and earliest appointment is 12/21.

I'm going to check with my family doctor and see if he can recommend someone
else or get me in sooner.

A question: Can one do a TKR for inflammatory arthritis (not OA)?

Mel

>> RE: Your point #3. I did mention meds.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> ... LET THERE BE DARK!              No, that's not right.
california_chief - 25 Oct 2007 21:17 GMT
> A question: Can one do a TKR for inflammatory arthritis (not OA)?
> Mel

I am going to quote from an article in Arthritis Self-Management
November-December 2007 received yesterday.  It is about shoulder and elbow
surgery, but applies equally well to TKR.

"Among the most common causes of shoulder problems are OA, RA, and
posttraumatic arthritis (a type of OA that develops after an injury).
All of these can damage cartilage, bone, and surrounding structures so much
that it is difficult to use the joints normally."

"Most shoulder replacements are done on people who have OA, RA, or
posttraumatic arthritis.  Signs that suggest you need a shoulder replacement
include loss of strength and mobility in your shoulder and a reduced ability
to function."

"As with the shoulder, arthritis - such as RA, OA, or posttraumatic
arthritis - can damage the elbow enough to make it both painful and
difficult to move."

"People with RA tend to benefit the most from elbow replacement surgery."

... I had to stop driving my car for awhile ... the tires got dizzy.
Nann Bell - 26 Oct 2007 13:48 GMT
You can do a TKR to repair the *damage* done by inflammatory arthritis, but
that still will not control the disease itself.  The pain of inflammatory
arthritis comes fromt he inflammation in the tissues and synovial fluid
surrounding the joint rather than changes in the joint itself.  What you
quote the orthopod as saying indicates that you are still at that stage.  At
this point the best way of treating your pain is by addressing the
inflammation and the immune system dysfunction that is creating it.

Over time the inflammation eats away at the cartilage in joints and possibly
even at the bone.  That is when a TKR would be helpful.  Even then though, if
you have active inflammation around the joint, a TKR will NOT take care of
your pain, though it will improve function.

The pain you describe (feels like razor blades are in my knees) is really
very typical of inflammatory arthritis.  I've also heard it described as
feeling like there's broken glass in the joint or (my best describer for a
couple of finger knuckles) as feeling like someone's shoving a red-hot poker
in the joint.

If you have a good primary care physician (PCP for typing ease) you might
want to get in to see him while waiting to see the RD (our shorthand  for
rheumatologist).  Your PCP can start the testing process and can start
searching for the most effective NSAID for you (everyone is different that
way!) during this delay in seeing the RD.  A quick steroid taper might also
help calm the inflammation for a while - that or a steroid injection, but
either will also disguise your symptoms somewhat when you see the RD.  But,
it can truly be worth a visit to a decent PCP to get help in the interim.

It's an unfortunate truth that there is a shortage of RDs throughout the
world and that leads to real delays in getting in to see them.  I wanted to
reschedule my 11/8 visit at the office that knows me all too well because my
mom was thinking about visiting that week.  The next opening wasn't until
mid-January.  We're rescheduing Mother's visit instead.  It's the reality in
a specialty that doesn't yield big bucks.

Stick around though - we actually understand what you are dealing with and
know the frustration of trying to live with pain and of adaptin to the
limitations it imposes.

BTW, my dad was a college prof at a large school.  If you know mascots, you
can guess which one from my munged email address.  When his knees, one ankle
and feet were really bad from RA and from traumatic arthritis, he got around
campus on a bicycle.  It saved him from having to walk and later, when he
went to PT, they said that had kept his knees more functional that they would
normally have been for his degree of damage.

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Nann
remove the Gator cheer to email me
Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare

MZB - 26 Oct 2007 21:48 GMT
Yes, I already did make an app't. with my family doc and even that's 10 days
away!

Mel
> You can do a TKR to repair the *damage* done by inflammatory arthritis,
> but
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
> would
> normally have been for his degree of damage.
 
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