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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Arthritis / April 2007

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OTP:  Taking a poll

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Donna G. - 22 Apr 2007 22:34 GMT
OK, here is the situation:

You know of someone that is shut in and doesn't get out much at all due
to health issues, anxiety, and depression.

You try to help this person by doing things for them or by trying to
cheer them up, but they have become so engrained in their own self to
the point that everything, and I do mean everything, has to be about
them and they have become quite selfish about respecting others feelings
and such.

They read far more into things then are really there in a given
situation, they get upset at those trying to help them because they
can't see past their own self, to see that others may have things in
their lives that are truy distressing and weighing heavily on their
hearts, etc.

They also have develoed a very strong attitude that everyone owes them
something instead of being appreciative and grateful for all that othes
do do for them.

Essentially, their world has become one that revolves around them and
their thoughts and opinions, and that is it.  

They will roll right over the top of you if you even try to express your
opinion or thoughts, especially if they don't agree with theirs!  
Forget about even trying to joke with this person---no way, far too
sensitive and takes everything way to personally!!!

They have become so angry and selfish all the time, that they literally
will take a person to task for even things that a person might not be
aware of. For example, if they just came home from the hospital, they
get upset that no one came to visit them---even if no one even knew they
were in the hosptial in the first place. Or if something was on sale at
the store that they really wanted or needed, but no one got it for them.
Well, you have to let people know about it, they aren't mind readers!
People are truly trying to help out of the goodness of their hearts!

They have forgotten how to give back to others in any way, even the
small ways in which they are able to!

1) How do you continue to try to help someone like this without starting
to feel angry and/or resentful?

2) By continuing to help this person, are you truly helping them or are
you perhaps enabling them in continuing this type of behavior?

3) I do believe we are called to help others, but sometimes those others
make it awfully difficult to help.   How do you deal wtih this type of
situation?   Do you continue to try to be there for that person or do
you, for your own sanity's sake take a break from them for a while?

4) Prayer is an important part of this, but what about the actual human
part of dealing with one who seems to love to stir up everyone and make
them feel guilty about every little thing just because they aren't happy
in life?

Suggestions???

Thanks gang!!!

Donna G.
.
.
.
ANGELS EXIST, but some times, since they don't all have wings, we call
them FRIENDS......
jofirey - 23 Apr 2007 00:09 GMT
OK, here is the situation:

You know of someone that is shut in and doesn't get out much at all due
to health issues, anxiety, and depression.

You try to help this person by doing things for them or by trying to
cheer them up, but they have become so engrained in their own self to
the point that everything, and I do mean everything, has to be about
them and they have become quite selfish about respecting others feelings
and such.

Suggestions???

First of all accept that they are who they are and they aren't going to
change.  I think you find this mind set develops in many people as they get
older and possibly with the onset of depression or Alzheimers.

Then you need to a.ses why you are helping them.  Do you have an obligation
to them in particular, or is it largely the guilt they are quite adept at
doleing out.

If you have no particular obligation and they are bringing you down, then it
is time to back away and to spend your efforts somewhere else.

If you must or if you choose to continue to try to help them, try a little
behavior modification to preserve your own sanity.  When they are
particularly trying, remember somewhere else you simply must be or something
else you simply must do and leave, get off the phone or whatever.

Jo
shenmei9wise@gmail.com - 23 Apr 2007 01:07 GMT
I so agree with those words of wisdom, Jo.  Accept who they are and
that they are not going to change and that this is not personal

I have numerous people in my life who are difficult to deal with.
There is a woman I treat who cannot leave her house.  She is allergic
to everything and very very hard to deal with.SHe is very manipulative
and just so negative.  I have to basically write affirmations
everytime I am going to treat her

"this is not personal"

"I am not responsible for jean's mood"

"I have the energy to do this treatment"

and on and on in the world of affirmations

But mostly, I just do a little disconnect and step back and realize
this isn't about me or even about her.

However, I have also said to a few people over the years who have been
very bullyish  the old
"If I'm not having a good time, you will need to get someone else to
bring in your groceries, kiddo.

m
Harvey R. Stone - 23 Apr 2007 03:08 GMT
1) How do you continue to try to help someone like this without starting
to feel angry and/or resentful?

You can not say ahead of time how you are going to feel.   You can only
control what you do and say.

2) By continuing to help this person, are you truly helping them or are
you perhaps enabling them in continuing this type of behavior?

I honestly think that a professional should be consulted and their opinion
applied to what is done or not.

3) I do believe we are called to help others, but sometimes those others
make it awfully difficult to help.

It is always difficult when you deal with depression.

How do you deal wtih this type of
situation?

    You must consider if you have already let this persons actions get out
of hand if nothing was said to curb what is taking place.
  You might consider if you are being tested and normal boundries are being
pushed.   I do not think you are helping a person to tolerate a person being
rude or too pushy.

Do you continue to try to be there for that person or do
you, for your own sanity's sake take a break from them for a while?

I have done that before and I learned from it but everyone is not alike and
you can not treat people all alike.   You must get the feel for what this
person really needs and wants       and     then actions you take must be
done with love and consideration for this person in pain.   If you can not
do that, it is time for a hand off to someone that may have a better chance
of helping this person with a step back for you.

4) Prayer is an important part of this, but what about the actual human
part of dealing with one who seems to love to stir up everyone and make
them feel guilty about every little thing just because they aren't happy
in life?

Is there a way to get pro-help for this person??   If your reaction to this
person is too strong,,, do you need help???   I have found that discussion
with a group of people that try to help people and know the people involved
might have good suggestions for each other.   Everybody does at times and
learn from it.    Harv

Suggestions???

Thanks gang!!!

Donna G.
.
.
nanny - 23 Apr 2007 06:13 GMT
Hi Donna.  You've just described my own Mother.  I don't feel I can "disown"
her, particularly since I'm the only daughter here in town with her.  But,
she tries us to the limit!  My Rheumy told me once that my body would pay a
price each and every time I'm around her.  I have dealt with the situation
by limiting my time with her.  My hubby and I take her out to eat on
Sundays, then I'll take her out to run errands one day a week.  I cannot
tolerate anymore time with her.  She's 85, but she's always been like this.
My Dad put up with a lot before he died 9 years ago.

Now, family aside, my advice would be to limit anytime spent with this type
personality, or if at all possible, avoid this person.  Any extra stress and
negativity comes out in more pain.  Take care.  Nanny

OK, here is the situation:

You know of someone that is shut in and doesn't get out much at all due
to health issues, anxiety, and depression.

You try to help this person by doing things for them or by trying to
cheer them up, but they have become so engrained in their own self to
the point that everything, and I do mean everything, has to be about
them and they have become quite selfish about respecting others feelings
and such.

They read far more into things then are really there in a given
situation, they get upset at those trying to help them because they
can't see past their own self, to see that others may have things in
their lives that are truy distressing and weighing heavily on their
hearts, etc.

They also have develoed a very strong attitude that everyone owes them
something instead of being appreciative and grateful for all that othes
do do for them.

Essentially, their world has become one that revolves around them and
their thoughts and opinions, and that is it.

They will roll right over the top of you if you even try to express your
opinion or thoughts, especially if they don't agree with theirs!
Forget about even trying to joke with this person---no way, far too
sensitive and takes everything way to personally!!!

They have become so angry and selfish all the time, that they literally
will take a person to task for even things that a person might not be
aware of. For example, if they just came home from the hospital, they
get upset that no one came to visit them---even if no one even knew they
were in the hosptial in the first place. Or if something was on sale at
the store that they really wanted or needed, but no one got it for them.
Well, you have to let people know about it, they aren't mind readers!
People are truly trying to help out of the goodness of their hearts!

They have forgotten how to give back to others in any way, even the
small ways in which they are able to!

1) How do you continue to try to help someone like this without starting
to feel angry and/or resentful?

2) By continuing to help this person, are you truly helping them or are
you perhaps enabling them in continuing this type of behavior?

3) I do believe we are called to help others, but sometimes those others
make it awfully difficult to help. How do you deal wtih this type of
situation? Do you continue to try to be there for that person or do
you, for your own sanity's sake take a break from them for a while?

4) Prayer is an important part of this, but what about the actual human
part of dealing with one who seems to love to stir up everyone and make
them feel guilty about every little thing just because they aren't happy
in life?

Suggestions???

Thanks gang!!!

Donna G.
.
.
.
ANGELS EXIST, but some times, since they don't all have wings, we call
them FRIENDS......
Squirrely - 23 Apr 2007 17:20 GMT
Donna,

good guestions.

I think you have to let your heart lead you on this one. Also praying about
it might help.

It is a hard situation to know when we are helping and when we are hurting.
By our help are we allowing that person to keep on with the behavior and not
try to do for themselves. That is the tough one.

I know how you feel though. I always end up doing more damage I think than
helping.
Because of my situation I get to be too helpful when I can. Sometimes that
is the wrong thing to do.

It really is hard to figure out what to do and how much. I will be praying
about this with you to figure out what you should do.

Signature

Love and Hugs to all
Jo the squirrely one

OK, here is the situation:

You know of someone that is shut in and doesn't get out much at all due
to health issues, anxiety, and depression.

You try to help this person by doing things for them or by trying to
cheer them up, but they have become so engrained in their own self to
the point that everything, and I do mean everything, has to be about
them and they have become quite selfish about respecting others feelings
and such.

They read far more into things then are really there in a given
situation, they get upset at those trying to help them because they
can't see past their own self, to see that others may have things in
their lives that are truy distressing and weighing heavily on their
hearts, etc.

They also have develoed a very strong attitude that everyone owes them
something instead of being appreciative and grateful for all that othes
do do for them.

Essentially, their world has become one that revolves around them and
their thoughts and opinions, and that is it.

They will roll right over the top of you if you even try to express your
opinion or thoughts, especially if they don't agree with theirs!
Forget about even trying to joke with this person---no way, far too
sensitive and takes everything way to personally!!!

They have become so angry and selfish all the time, that they literally
will take a person to task for even things that a person might not be
aware of. For example, if they just came home from the hospital, they
get upset that no one came to visit them---even if no one even knew they
were in the hosptial in the first place. Or if something was on sale at
the store that they really wanted or needed, but no one got it for them.
Well, you have to let people know about it, they aren't mind readers!
People are truly trying to help out of the goodness of their hearts!

They have forgotten how to give back to others in any way, even the
small ways in which they are able to!

1) How do you continue to try to help someone like this without starting
to feel angry and/or resentful?

2) By continuing to help this person, are you truly helping them or are
you perhaps enabling them in continuing this type of behavior?

3) I do believe we are called to help others, but sometimes those others
make it awfully difficult to help. How do you deal wtih this type of
situation? Do you continue to try to be there for that person or do
you, for your own sanity's sake take a break from them for a while?

4) Prayer is an important part of this, but what about the actual human
part of dealing with one who seems to love to stir up everyone and make
them feel guilty about every little thing just because they aren't happy
in life?

Suggestions???

Thanks gang!!!

Donna G.
.
.
.
ANGELS EXIST, but some times, since they don't all have wings, we call
them FRIENDS......

jones - 23 Apr 2007 23:26 GMT
Could you find a counsellor or non-family member, willing to visit this
person once in a while to gauge how you may be able to help and still keep
your sanity?

Just a thought.
Katherine
california_chief - 23 Apr 2007 19:23 GMT
> OK, here is the situation:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> they have become quite selfish about respecting others
> feelings and such.

A rule in firefighting is "You can't help others if you
become injured."

The same should apply to caregivers - you are of no
value to others is your own mental/physical condition
deteriorates.

You have to take care of yourself FIRST.    That's
pretty much the same answer ABBY gives when a
rundown/beat up caregivers writes.

You are NUMBER 1, not the other person.
jofirey - 23 Apr 2007 23:37 GMT
>> OK, here is the situation:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> A rule in firefighting is "You can't help others if you
> become injured."

I hadn't thought of it in that context, but it is true and easy to remember.

Jo
Nann Bell - 24 Apr 2007 15:20 GMT
Ok, Donna, how about some *easy* questions for a change!  LOL

my thoughts:

Firstly, keep in mind that YOU cannot change another person.  The things you
list can only change if that peson is willing to have them change.  

You have to set boundaries and be clear about what you are and are not
willing to do.  For example, if the other person keeps complaining you not
buying something on sale for them, just keep replying that if they will call
you and let you know they need it and it is on sale, you will endeavor to get
it.  Don't try further logic, just keep repeating the same reply.  Do this
even if they switch to complaining about this in regard to another person.  
Over time:
    a) it becomes boring if you only get the same reply, so the person tends to
change subjects
    b) what you are saying may sink in over time and the person may believe you
mean it and then -
    c)  there's a chance the person will actually begin to do this and begin to
feel a bit more in control this way (remember, their whole situation tends to
take all sense of control over one's life away, especially in the ways that
are generally valued by our society)

frankly, sticking to one reply and repeating it over and over is one of the
hardest things to do.  I've had to do it in situations.  But it enables you
to establish boundaries for BOTH of you.  And when using logic and other
tactics hasn't worked, just setting and reiterating clear boundaries may be
the best way to help the other person.

Also, you need to have boundaries set in your own mind for what you can and
cannot do and for when you are and are not willing to help.  Do not help when
you are at a point that you really need to attend to yourself.  Ultimately,
you cannot help another if you are drained, emotionally, spiritually and/or
physically, yourself.

If the other person conttinues to take conversations in directions that are
unhealthy for you to listen to, tell said person so.   It really is ok to say
you're feeling lousy and you just can't listen to negative stuff right now.  
Again, it is so very hard to do!  But if these conversations take place by
phone, maybe you can work out some good statements at less stressful times
and write them down next to the phone.  Then you don't have to think them up
when you're getting frustrated with this person!

When you do talk with this person, keep in mind that their world has been
greatly circumscribed by their limitations.  And remember to take care of
yourself first - and frankly you are helping this person some by reminding
them that others also have problems they have to deal with.
Signature

Nann
remove the Gator cheer to email me
Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare

Plantmistress - 26 Apr 2007 19:36 GMT
Sorry it took me so long to get caught up on posts - here's my $.02
worth.

It alsmost sounds like you are describing my maternal grandmother

> You try to help this person by doing things for them or by trying to
> cheer them up, but they have become so engrained in their own self to
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> their lives that are truy distressing and weighing heavily on their
> hearts, etc.

Have you come right out & told this person that you feel he/she is not
respecting your feelings?  It sounds like he/she is so wrapped up in
their own issues that this may not have occurred to them.

> They also have develoed a very strong attitude that everyone owes them
> something instead of being appreciative and grateful for all that othes
> do do for them.

This is a toughy - you can't make people be or act grateful.  You may
just have to accept this one as it is.

> They will roll right over the top of you if you even try to express your
> opinion or thoughts, especially if they don't agree with theirs!
> Forget about even trying to joke with this person---no way, far too
> sensitive and takes everything way to personally!!!

This is another one that you just have to let go, unless you have a
thick enough skin to say what you think regardless of the reaction the
other person will/might have.

> 1) How do you continue to try to help someone like this without starting
> to feel angry and/or resentful?

I'm not sure that you can.  However, if you want to try, you need to
set some boundaries.  It is totally acceptable for you to tell the
other person how you feel when they treat you badly.  There's no need
to be mean, but your being straightforward might be just what this
person needs most.

> 2) By continuing to help this person, are you truly helping them or are
> you perhaps enabling them in continuing this type of behavior?

Continuing to help is clearly important to you, so go ahead.  I don't
think its hurting anything, and it may help.

> 3) I do believe we are called to help others, but sometimes those others
> make it awfully difficult to help.   How do you deal wtih this type of
> situation?   Do you continue to try to be there for that person or do
> you, for your own sanity's sake take a break from them for a while?

You _have_ to make time for yourself, no matter what.  If you need a
break from this person's negativity, go ahead & take it - you will be
better able to help him/her if you are mentally & physically doing
well.

> 4) Prayer is an important part of this, but what about the actual human
> part of dealing with one who seems to love to stir up everyone and make
> them feel guilty about every little thing just because they aren't happy
> in life?

You have to remember that goodness comes from the Almighty & from
inside you.  It doesn't matter if the person you are helping wants to
try to make you feel guilty - if you haven't done anything wrong, you
shouldn't feel bad.

Shannon
Donna G. - 29 Apr 2007 00:08 GMT
Thanks, everyone for all of your input and suggestions, I really
appreciate it.

While our church is pulling together to help this person, (she has no
remaining family) I personally, have decided to step back for a while as
I just have too much going on in my own life to deal with and am not
dealing well with this other situation.   Not a good place to be and I
feel bad not being able to continue to help, but guess I have to be
selfish myself for a while.  Ugggh.

Anyways, thanks again for all of your input!!!

Donna G.
.
.
.
ANGELS EXIST, but some times, since they don't all have wings, we call
them FRIENDS......
sweetpickleNO@SPAMknology.net - 29 Apr 2007 02:11 GMT
Donna, I think you made a wise decision.  With the problems you have, you
must take care of yourself first.  I learned that in November when I was
first in the hospital.
If a person is not well, he/she doesn't need to over burden him/her self
trying to help someone else.

I was working in the childrens' department and also greeting  for a month at
the time at one of our entrance doors.  When I got out of the childrens'
department my feet were already hurting (sometimes my back) and after
greeting for 20 to 30 minutes, I could hardly wait to get in church and sit
down. When our childrens' minister came to the hospital to see me, I told
her I had to stop and she understood.  I determined then to learn to say
"no" when I'm asked to do something I think is not good for me.  If we don't
take care of ourselves, who will
Gwen

> Thanks, everyone for all of your input and suggestions, I really
> appreciate it.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> ANGELS EXIST, but some times, since they don't all have wings, we call
> them FRIENDS......
lhamo55 - 29 Apr 2007 04:58 GMT
> Thanks, everyone for all of your input and suggestions, I really
> appreciate it.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> ANGELS EXIST, but some times, since they don't all have wings, we call
> them FRIENDS......

Dear Donna,

I think you did the best you could - an admirable thing, and there is
no need to feel you are being "selfish" for stepping back, taking a
breather and getting your own life back in order.  I certainly hope no
one is trying to make you feel guilty about this.

 Your charge's personality sounds very similar to that of my dear
mother's... and such was her personality for as long as I can
remember, it simply became more "acceptable", I suppose, when she took
to her bed and became totally incapacitated.

When that happened it soon became clear I could only care for her long
distance, staying with her  and Dad in their home no more than two
weeks at a time per month and by the time Dad became seriously ill a
few years later to keep them out of a nursing home I had to step back
completely and turn their care over to the only other relative willing
to help - (she had alienated everyone else).

We sold the house and moved them back down South where my cousin
built a cottage on family land for them, hired round the clock care -
Dad died a few months later and poor mom lost her anchor of 57 years.
Suddenly only one other person was left on earth who understood her,
didn't fall for the games and knew when to walk away but would always
be her daughter.(I'm an only child and was actually their foster
daughter who'd been with them since I was 18 months old but never
legally adopted after my biological brother who had been placed with
me had to be removed because of incorrigible behavior - I haven't seen
or heard from him since I was 16 and am now 52 -

Sadly my cousin and her family discovered what it was like to be her
whipping boys, but they all finally understood why I was commuting
between California and Chicago each month.

But most importantly, throughout it all, with Mom now gone, I know I
did the very best I could for her, that during the last year of her
life our relationship was peaceful and loving and before she passed
into her final coma, she promised on the phone that morning she would
wait til I got there from Arizona - and she kept her word, holding on
long enough til that evening to greet me by name.  The memory of the
next four days and nights by her bed will be with me for the rest of
this lifetime - it was an honor to be with her, I had dozed off, she
and I were alone in the room and she woke me in silence in time to
witness her passing. She was 83,

She had lived with so much anguish abuse and pain in her early life
and her family had sought to make her forget and hide it all from
outsiders by spoiling her rotten and the die had been cast in forming
a beautiful spoiled self-centered young woman accustomed to getting
her way no matter what.   She was always a girl at heart, and at her
best, a very sweet and kind hearted one, and I miss her a lot.  Even
the tantrums which later in life I lfinally earned to stop cold by
lightheartedly teasing her and mimicing her, which would make her
laugh in spite of herself.  All these years she wanted attention, who
said it had to be negative with arguments, when I surprised her by
planting a fat kiss then mimicing - not mocking, and started talking
about how naughtly she was, and how I bet she did that when she was
younger etc....  oh the skeletons that started tumbling out of the
closet, lol.  I was truly shocked.

Well, I started out with the intention of assuring you that stepping
away needn't imply selfishness and ended up sharing my Mom's last
years.  I'm glad you were able to assist your lady for the amount of
time you did - just like my Mom, no matter how difficult, she is still
worthy of care, even if it takes specially trained caregivers or
relays.  You've done more than your share - well done;^)
Harvey R. Stone - 29 Apr 2007 15:21 GMT
Well done,,,, well said...
Harv

>> Thanks, everyone for all of your input and suggestions, I really
>> appreciate it.
[quoted text clipped - 81 lines]
> worthy of care, even if it takes specially trained caregivers or
> relays.  You've done more than your share - well done;^)
Donna G. - 29 Apr 2007 18:57 GMT
Hi Renee,

No, noone is trying to make me feel guilty about stepping back, and I so
appreciate you sharing so openly about all that you went through.
Wow!!!

I guess I just am so used to being able to help out others in some way
and am not used to being the one that has to be dependent on others and
not be able to help with others the way I am used to doing.   It is most
frustrating to me and I have really been struggling with that a lot
since my storke in december.

I know that this situation with this lady isn't going any where and I
will be able to step back in at some point and offer help again, just
don't like to have to step back. LOL!!!

Oh, well, you are right, I need to step back for now and work on taking
care of myself, then and only then can I be in a better position to help
others and do it with grace and kindness and not be resentful or
frustrated.   I LOVE the way you describe how you handled your mother.
You are a very very wise daughter.   Thank you so much for sharing all
of that.  It really gave me a lot to think about.

blessings to you!

Donna G.
.
.
.
ANGELS EXIST, but some times, since they don't all have wings, we call
them FRIENDS......
Kelly - 29 Apr 2007 21:50 GMT
Donna,
I feel for you.  The hardest thing in my opinion for me with this disease is
to say "NO".  Sometimes that is even harder than the pain.  I am a helper, a
healer and a doer.  When I am isolated it is even harder to say no.

Kelly

> Hi Renee,
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> ANGELS EXIST, but some times, since they don't all have wings, we call
> them FRIENDS......
Donna G. - 29 Apr 2007 22:31 GMT
Amen, Kelly, Amen!!!

Donna G.
.
.
.
ANGELS EXIST, but some times, since they don't all have wings, we call
them FRIENDS......
Squirrely - 29 Apr 2007 21:25 GMT
Renee,

thanks for sharing that with us. I am glad to see you posting here. By the
way welcome to ASA. ;-)

It is so good to see you here, well not for what you are here for but just
that I have missed you. ;-)

How are  you doing these days? Enquiring minds want to know. ;-)

Signature

Love and Hugs to all
Jo the squirrely one

> Dear Donna,
>
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
> worthy of care, even if it takes specially trained caregivers or
> relays.  You've done more than your share - well done;^)
Nann Bell - 29 Apr 2007 14:51 GMT
> Thanks, everyone for all of your input and suggestions, I really
> appreciate it.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> feel bad not being able to continue to help, but guess I have to be
> selfish myself for a while.  Ugggh.

just keep reminding yourself that you can be more helpful to others in the
long term if you take reasonable care of yourself first!  (this is an issue
we face often in the clergy/clergy spouse circles!)

and this is a good instance for you to pull back some as there are others in
your church family who are helping - you pulling back is NOT leaving this
person without help.

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Nann
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Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare


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