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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Arthritis / May 2007

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It Hurts When I Walk / Venous stasis

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ironjustice - 08 Apr 2007 20:26 GMT
Venous stasis is when the blood .. therefore oxygen .. cannot
'reach' .. areas of the body .. either through .. stoppage .. or
inability to .. force its' way .. through .. the tiny little tubes
that are the blood flowing 'aqueducts' / piping.

The blood flowing aqueducts / piping consist of four different sizes
of pipe ..  large , big , medium , small.

Milkshake cannot flow through .. small.

Therefore the 'thicker' / more syrupy / sludge like .. the blood ..
the less .. the blood is able to perfuse / reach .. therefore .. lack
of oxygen therefore .. gangrene .. or hypoxia .. AT .. the POINT .. of
blood flow stoppage.

Hence the appearance of hemosiderin / iron FROM destroyed red blood
cells / hemolysis .. AT the .. point .. OF .. lack of blood flow /
venous stasis.

Red blood cells are destroyed WHEN .. blood stoppage happens.

<<snip>>
Hemosiderin staining is caused by the degradation of red blood cells
within the interstitial spaces in the epidermis and dermis. The skin
takes on a grayish brown color caused by the deposition of the iron-
containing pigment.
<<snip>>

Venous stasis can be caused BY **increased** red blood cells
PRODUCTION / erythrocytosis.

Erythrocytosis causes hyperviscosity / thick .. syrupy like .. blood.

Low-iron diet treats erythrocytosis.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/548009_1

'It Hurts When I Walk:' Venous Stasis Disease - Differential Diagnosis
and Treatment
Posted 02/07/2007

Cynthia A. Worley, BSN, RN, COCN, CWCN

Author Information
Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what
makes life meaningful." - Joshua J. Marine

Introduction
I am in the process of redecorating my master bedroom and decided to
make a new duvet cover for the comforter. The only area in the house
large enough for cutting fabric is on the living room floor. Needless
to say, I've been crawling around on the floor a lot lately. And,
consequently, I've been taking a lot of over-the-counter pain
relievers as a result. I don't think I have arthritis or joint disease
(although I am of a certain age when one begins to think in those
terms and wonder "am I getting too old for some of the activities I
engage in?"). The pain associated with venous stasis disease is much
worse than ordinary musculoskeletal discomfort. Imagine that every
step you take feels like someone is driving a nail through your leg
and then connecting that nail to an electrical outlet so that the pain
travels up and down your leg. This type of pain is not relieved by
Advil®!

Chronic venous insufficiency is related to more than 70% of lower-
extremity ulcers and it is estimated that up to 1 million people in
the United States are affected by the disease. Approximately 3.5% of
the population 65 years of age and older are affected by chronic
venous insufficiency and 2 million workdays are lost annually
(Falanga, 1997; Rudolph, 1998). Patients experience increased stress,
pain, decreased quality of life, and difficulty in coping with the
symptoms and manifestations of the disease. In addition to the
psychosocial problems caused by venous leg ulcers, the financial costs
can be significant. Venous disease cannot be controlled without
certain permanent lifestyle changes. Notice, I said controlled not
cured.

Introduction
Some wound care professionals believe that patients with chronic
venous insufficiency and venous stasis ulcers are the most difficult
patients to treat because there is a significant lifestyle factor
involved in the etiology of the problem. We know that venous leg
ulcers are associated with pain and a decreased quality of life
(Phillips, Stanton, Provan, & Lew, 1994) and the incidence of
recurrence through improper diagnosis is high (Erikson et al., 1995).
So, in this article, diagnosis and treatment will be discussed.

Because venous, arterial, neuropathic, and mixed-etiology ulcers have
many characteristics in common, it is important to perform a thorough
assessment along with a history and physical in order to gather all
the information required to make an accurate determination. There are
several distinguishing characteristics of venous ulceration that will
separate its diagnosis apart from other lower-extremity ulcerations.
To further "cloud" the diagnosis is the fact that up to 26% of
patients with venous disease also have arterial insufficiency as well
(Nelzen, Bergqvist, & Lindhagen, 1997).

Differential Diagnosis
One of the initial signs of venous disease is venous congestion and
dilation of the saphenous vein along the medial area of the calf.
Pitting edema in the ankle area toward the end of the day is another
differentiating characteristic. Skin color changes also assist in
ruling out other types of insufficiency ulcers. The texture of the
skin will also change over time in the patient with untreated or
poorly controlled venous stasis disease.

Hemosiderin staining is caused by the degradation of red blood cells
within the interstitial spaces in the epidermis and dermis. The skin
takes on a grayish brown color caused by the deposition of the iron-
containing pigment. Venous dermatitis usually indicates longstanding
disease and is characterized by erythema and scaling. Large quantities
of exudates cause skin maceration and small breaks in skin integrity.
Absorption of topically applied substances leads to sensitization and
increases risk for allergic reaction or contact dermatitis in this
population. Atrophic blanche is another potential finding from the
assessment and is characterized by a white, avascular, sclerotic area.
Lipodermatosclerosis is the term used to describe the indurated, waxy,
and fibrotic texture of the skin in the "gaiter" area. Pulses in the
feet and ankle are not considered diagnostic of venous stasis disease.
The lower extremity has an inverted "champagne bottle" appearance.
Table 1 provides an outline of the major characteristics of venous
stasis ulcers.

Diagnostic Evaluation
Although the characteristics of the ulcer may lead the wound care
professional to diagnose chronic venous stasis disease, it is prudent
to perform diagnostic testing to confirm the suspected condition.
Ankle-Brachial Index, Doppler ultrasonography, tourniquet testing,
photoplethysmography (using a transducer and infrared light source),
venography, and duplex imaging are all accepted methods of determining
a differential diagnosis. It should be understood, however, that each
of these methods are used to determine the particular components of
the vascular system involved in the disease process and the specific
pathology. For example, tourniquet testing is used to identify
valvular incompetence in the superficial venous system. The Ankle-
Brachial Index (ABI) is determined by dividing the ankle systolic
pressure by the brachial systolic pressure (ABI of 0.7-0.9 generally
correlates with adequate perfusion; results below this benchmark
indicate arterial disease). Doppler ultrasound is used to verify if
pulses are present if the edema present prevents accurate palpation of
those pulses. Photoplethysmography is used to provide a measure of
venous filling times and venous reflux. Venography is used prior to
surgery to provide details of the venous system. Duplex imaging is the
standard diagnostic tool for assessing venous disease. It is a highly
sensitive testing method used to determine not only the viability of
the anatomy involved but also the hemodynamic function of all three
venous systems.

Management of the Patient with Venous Ulcers
Obviously, the first priority in management is to address the
underlying etiology of the condition. Restoring adequate venous return
reduces venous hypertension, thereby controlling edema and increasing
velocity of blood flow. This, in turn, decreases WBC margination and
extravasation into the surrounding tissues. Surgical and nonsurgical
strategies for correction of venous flow may include surgical
obliteration or ligation of the affected veins, valvular repair,
compression therapy, elevation and pharmacologic therapy.

Surgical management may be the treatment of choice if the ulcers are
resistant to more conservative therapies or if venous obstruction is
present. In the presence of primary superficial disease, vein ligation
or stripping may minimize venous congestion and hypertension. Valvular
procedures are used to correct deep vein pathology.

Compression therapy is the application of externally applied pressure
as a means of facilitating normal venous flow and has long been
considered a cornerstone of treatment and prevention of recurrence of
ulceration. The critical factor in the success of compression therapy
is patient compliance. Compression increases interstitial tissue
pressure, opposing extravasation of blood and fluid into surrounding
tissues, and also supports reabsorption of extravasated fluids. Com
pression also increases fibrinolytic activity and possibly also
inhibits platelet aggregation, which contributes to the management of
lipodermatosclerosis. The amount of compression is dependent upon the
severity of the disease and venous hypertension and the pressure must
be applied in a gradient fashion; the highest pressure is delivered to
the ankle, with the gradual lessening as the pressure approaches the
knee. Unna's boots, multiple layer compression bandages, sequential
compression boots (pneumatic devices), and other short and long-
stretch bandages can all be used to manage the patient's venous ulcer
during healing.

Elevation, along with compression therapy, contributes to the
reduction of edema. Patients should be encouraged to elevate the feet
above the thighs while sitting and above the level of the heart when
lying down to encourage venous return.

Pharmacologic agents have been studied for their supposed ability to
reduce edema, enhance fibrinolysis, and promote anti-coagulation. To
date, their efficacy in treating venous hypertension has not been
demonstrated. Only hemorrheologic agents have shown any benefit as
they decrease blood viscosity and WBC adhesion while increasing
fibrinolysis (pentoxifylline [Trental®]). Aspirin, heparin, ifetroban,
and prostaglandin E1 have been studied for a potential role in healing
of venous ulcers but have yet to demonstrate efficacy. Topical growth
factors have not shown benefit in treating venous ulcerations.

Summary
Venous stasis disease represents 70% to 90% of lower-extremity ulcers
treated. Venous hypertension brought about by inadequate venous return
and defective valvular systems is the main culprit. Positive outcomes
in patient care can be achieved by an ongoing partnership between the
health care provider and the patient to control the disease and its
effects. Appropriate assessment and management require a long-term
commitment by a multidisciplinary team to encourage and enhance
patient compliance and to prevent recurrence.

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Harvey R. Stone - 09 Apr 2007 13:25 GMT
Venous stasis is when the blood .. therefore oxygen .. cannot
'reach' .. areas of the body .. either through .. stoppage .. or
inability to .. force its' way .. through .. the tiny little tubes
that are the blood flowing 'aqueducts' / piping.

For new people that have not read the postings of Ironjustice,,,,,,
EVERYthing can be tied back to our bodies problems with too much iron in our
system in his/her world....  It takes more than a pinch of salt to buy into
his/her thinking.
   His/her posting is compulsive and no comments or facts against what he
posts will change his actions or thinking     and     is a complete waste of
time of everyone reading this.   Travel at your own risk.

Harv
ironjustice - 09 Apr 2007 16:19 GMT
This article specifically speaks to the .. micro**circulation** .. and
HOW it .. **pertains** and WHEN treated .. properly .. results IN ..

"The total effective rate was up to 97.92%, cure rate up to 68.75%,
without toxicity and side effects."

<<snip>>
obstruction of microcirculation, particularly in speeding up the blood
flowing
<<snip>>

Zhong Xi Yi Jie He Za Zhi. 1991 Jul;11(7):411-2, 389-90. Links
[Clinical and experimental study on shenghong kangyan su in treating
144 cases of pelvic inflammation with blood stasis syndrome][Article
in Chinese]
Fang LY, Lin SS.
Fuzhou No. 1 Hospital, Fuzhou Institute of Medical Science.

Using the method of clearing up heat and resolving stasis, the authors
treated 144 cases of pelvic inflammation with blood stasis syndrome
(BSS) with Shenghong Kangyan Su. The total effective rate was up to
97.92%, cure rate up to 68.75%, without toxicity and side effects.
Clinical and experimental study showed that the crux of pelvic
inflammation with BSS had some relations with microcirculation
obstruction. Inflammation may cause microcirculation obstruction and
blood stasis, and is one forms of BSS. Therefore dull purple-tongue,
undertongue vein dilated, abdominal pain in lower-part, pathologic
mass can be regarded as the basis of diagnosis of pelvic inflammation
with BSS The drug of clearing heat and resolving status has the
functions of anti-inflammation, anti-pain, diminishing the obstruction
of microcirculation, particularly in speeding up the blood flowing,
lowering the aggregation of erythrocyte, P less than 0.001.

PMID: 1914037 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This article .. SPECIFICALLY .. shows .. **stasis** / lack of blood ..
flow .. f-l-o-w .. CAUSING .. bone necrosis / atrophy ..

<<snip>>
circulatory disturbances results in bone atrophy and the aggravation
of clinical symptoms including intensified pain.
<<snip>>

Nippon Seikeigeka Gakkai Zasshi. 1989 Sep;63(9):1029-39. Links
[Studies on the blood circulation at the proximal site of the tibia in
rheumatoid arthritis][Article in Japanese]
Takahashi S.
Department of Orthopaedic Surgery, Tohoku University School of
Medicine, Sendai, Japan.

It has not been well studied the blood flow of the bone of patients
with rheumatoid arthritis. For this reason, the author of this report
studied the circulatory state of the venous system at the proximal
portion of 28 tibiae from 22 patients with rheumatoid arthritis and
one from a healthy male as a control. In this study, we tried to
correlate the clinical symptoms with local destruction of the joint
and the bone atrophy. We injected 1 ml of saline into the medullary
cavity through the cortical bone, then measured the time required for
the back-flow of 5 drops-leakage of bone marrow blood. In addition
oxygen pressure and carbon dioxide gas pressure of the marrow blood
were evaluated, phlebography was also taken. Delayed venous
circulation shown on the phlebogram tended to coincide with high rates
of back-flow. When the venous circulation surrounding and within the
bone marrow was fair, many of our patients were found to have mild
pain associated with gradual degeneration and moderate atrophy of the
bone. On the other hand, when the venous circulation of the above area
showed stasis, most of our patients were found to have progressive
destruction and atrophy of the bone. This study has concluded that
inflammation and swelling of the synovial membrane produces
circulatory disturbances in and out of the joint. These disturbances
result in bone atrophy and the aggravation of clinical symptoms
including intensified pain.

PMID: 2511262 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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ironjustice - 09 Apr 2007 16:34 GMT
Methotrexate .. reduces .. erythrocytes / red blood cells .. thereby
INCREASING blood .. flow .. f-l-o-w .. DECREASING .. 'venous stasis' /
lack of blood .. flow.

<<snip>>
methotrexate shifts iron from being utilized in hemoglobin synthesis
to
liver stores
<<snip>>

Titre du document / Document title
Effect of methotrexate and folinic acid on accumulation of iron in
mice
Auteur(s) / Author(s)
IQBAL M. P. ; MEHBOOBALI N. ; SULTANA F. ; KHAN F. B. ; SURREY I.
A. ;
KAKEPOTO G. N. ;
Résumé / Abstract
A mouse-model was used to investigate the effect of methotrexate
(MTX)
and folinic acid on accumulation of iron in young growing mice. Four
equal groups of Balb/c young male mice were treated (subcutaneously)
with either MTX, or folinic acid, or MTX plus folinic acid, or
physiological saline on every second day. After 3 weeks of treatment,
liver, spleen, kidney, small intestine, brain, skeletal muscle and
heart were removed and analyzed for iron contents using a
spectrophotometric method. When the mean values of iron in liver of
four groups were compared using one way ANOVA followed by Tukey's HSD
test, the group receiving MTX alone was found to have significantly
(p
= 0.004) more accumulation of iron in liver. The group receiving MTX
plus folinic acid had iron accumulation in the liver similar to the
placebo group. However, the mean values of iron in brain, kidney,
small
intestine, skeletal muscle, heart and spleen in all the groups, were
not found to be statistically different. The data indicate that MTX
shifts iron from being utilized in hemoglobin synthesis to liver
stores. Folinic acid administration 8 h post-MTX, however, prevents
this shift of iron to liver. Decreased levels of iron in plasma in
mice
treated with MTX alone suggest decreased availability of iron to
other
tissues for their normal growth and development.
Revue / Journal Title
Medical hypotheses  (Med. hypotheses)  ISSN 0306-9877
Source / Source
2003, vol. 61, no4, pp. 444-445 [2 page(s) (article)]
Langue / Language
Anglais

Editeur / Publisher
Elsevier, Kidlington, ROYAUME-UNI (1975) (Revue)

Localisation / Location
INIST-CNRS, Cote INIST : 18253, 35400011268084.0060

Copyright 2006 INIST-CNRS. All rights reserved

Toute reproduction ou diffusion même partielle, par quelque procédé
ou sur tout support que ce soit, ne pourra être faite sans l'accord
préalable écrit de l'INIST-CNRS.
No part of these records may be reproduced of distributed, in any
form
or by any means, without the prior written permission of INIST-CNRS.

Nº notice refdoc (ud4) : 15221864

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ironjustice - 09 Apr 2007 16:51 GMT
It seems .. hydroxyurea .. a red cell **reducer** / remover .. and
methotrexate .. ANOTHER red cell .. reducer / remover .. have been
used for quite some .. time.

Do you think .. reducing / removing .. red cells may be ..
involved .. ?

Nahh ..

Arch Dermatol. 1974 Jul;110(1):70-2. Links
Effects of methotrexate and hydroxyurea on psoriatic epidermis.
Preferential cytotoxic effects on psoriatic epidermis.Smith C, Gelfant
S.
PMID: 4418706 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Arch Dermatol. 1973 Mar;107(3):369-70. Links
Combined methotrexate and hydroxyurea therapy for psoriasis.Sauer GC.
PMID: 4692125 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

I wonder if anyone recommends .. red blood cell reduction FOR ..
arthritis .. ?

<<snip>>
complete remission
<<snip>>

Rheumatology (Oxford). 2003 Dec;42(12):1550-5. Epub 2003 Jun 27.
Links
Near-iron deficiency-induced remission of gouty arthritis.Facchini FS.
Department of Medicine, San Francisco General Hospital and University
of California San Francisco, 94143, USA. fste2000@yahoo.com

OBJECTIVES: Previous evidence supports a role for iron in the
pathogenesis of gout. For example, iron, when added to media
containing urate crystals, stimulated oxidative stress with subsequent
complement and neutrophil activation. Conversely, iron removal
inhibited these responses as well as urate-crystal-induced foot pad
inflammation in rats in-vivo. The objective of the present study was
to investigate whether or not iron removal may improve the outcome of
gouty arthritis in humans as well. METHODS: Quantitative phlebotomy
was used to remove iron in 12 hyperuricaemic patients with gouty
arthritis and maintain their body iron at near-iron deficiency (NID)
level (i.e. the lowest body iron store compatible with normal
erythropoiesis and therefore absence of anaemia). RESULTS: During
maintenance of NID for 28 months, gouty attacks markedly diminished in
every patient, from a cumulative amount of 48 and 53 attacks per year
before (year -2, -1), to 32, 11 and 7 during induction (year 0) and
maintenance (year +1, +2) of NID, respectively. During NID, attacks
were also more often of milder severity. CONCLUSIONS: During a 28-
month follow-up, maintenance of NID was found to be safe and
beneficial in all patients, with effects ranging from a complete
remission to a marked reduction of incidence and severity of gouty
attacks.

PMID: 12832712 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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ironjustice - 09 Apr 2007 17:17 GMT
So .. theoretically this  meal should ALSO cause an .. aggravation of
symptoms / pain ..  in .. arthritis.

<<snip>>
triglyceride levels jumped from 140 milligrams per deciliter of
blood (mg/dL) after the high-fat meal, but only 10 mg/dL after the low-
fat
meal.
<<snip>>

Blood Flow to Heart Hampered After High-Fat Meal
Mon Apr 1, 5:54 PM ET

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - While a lifetime of fatty meals can lead
to a heart
attack, a study released Monday suggests that chowing down on just one
high-fat
meal can interfere with blood flow to the heart in healthy young men.

In the study, 15 healthy men in their 20s or early 30s consumed a
shake
containing a whopping 1,200 calories and 100 grams of fat--roughly
the
equivalent of eating a fast-food meal plus dessert. All of the men
underwent a
heart test and had blood samples taken before and after consuming the
liquid
meal.

The researchers, led by Dr. Takeshi Hozuml of Osaka City University in
Japan,
found that 5 hours after the high-fat meal, the ability of heart
arteries to
expand and increase blood flow to the muscle--a measure known as
coronary flow
reserve--dropped by 18%.

In addition, five men underwent the same tests after consuming a low-
fat 1,200
calorie meal that contained only 10 grams of fat. In that case, the
men did not
have a drop in coronary flow reserve after consuming the meal,
according to the
report in the April issue of the Annals of Internal Medicine.

The findings suggest that coronary microcirculation--the tiny blood
vessels
that provide oxygen-rich blood to heart muscle--can be impaired by a
high-fat
meal. Although the study did not include people with heart disease,
the results
could explain why those with heart disease-related chest pain, known
as angina
(news - web sites), can have increased pain after a high-fat meal. The
pain of
angina is thought to be due to a reduction in blood flow to the
heart.

The heart, the body's blood pumping organ, requires its own blood
supply to
function properly. Coronary arteries are the main blood vessels that
supply the
blood to the heart, and if a blockage occurs the surrounding vessels
compensate
by expanding in size to keep the proper amount of blood flowing to the
heart.

Doctors have know that a high-fat meals, which increase the amount of
fatty
substances in the blood such as triglycerides, can over time lead to
artery
clogging and eventually heart attacks. In the new study, the
investigators
found that triglyceride levels jumped from 140 milligrams per
deciliter of
blood (mg/dL) after the high-fat meal, but only 10 mg/dL after the low-
fat
meal.

While the researchers were not able to determine if the increase in
triglyceride levels was responsible for the decrease in the heart's
blood flow
reserve, the authors say the findings suggest implications for
patients with
heart disease.

SOURCE: Annals of Internal Medicine 2002;136:523-528.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

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ironjustice - 09 Apr 2007 17:35 GMT
In 1981, Lucas found a fat-free diet produced complete remission in 6
patients with rheumatoid arthritis. Remission was lost within 24-72
hours of eating a high-fat meal, such as one containing chicken,
cheese, safflower oil, beef, or coconut oil. The authors concluded,
"...dietary fats in amounts normally eaten in the American diet cause
the inflammatory joint changes seen in rheumatoid arthritis." (Clin
Res 29:754, 1981).

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ironjustice - 09 Apr 2007 17:44 GMT
> In 1981, Lucas found a fat-free diet produced complete remission in 6
> patients with rheumatoid arthritis. Remission was lost within 24-72
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> DEAD PEOPLE WALKINGhttp://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

Arthritis should therefore be .. aggravated / pain intensified .. when
one goes to .. altitude .. because altitude increases erythropoiesis /
red blood cell production .. and therefore increases .. viscosity ..
the same as a .. high-fat meal.

Sooo .. one can assume .. going to altitude AND eating a high-fat
meal .. WHEN you .. get there .. just may be .. painful.

That is theory .. though ..

Should we check to see if anyone has checked this .. yet .. ?

Let's ..

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ironjustice - 09 Apr 2007 18:11 GMT
Hmmm .. high altitude / therefore increased red blood cell
production .. BRINGS .. arthritis .. rheumatoid .. nodules .. and
erosive arthritis ..

Coincidentally .. the same .. 'gradient' / altitude ..  as ..
Multiple .. Sclerosis ..

<<snip>>
observed that the prevalence of rheumatoid nodules, RF, and erosive
arthritis in Africa increased along an altitude gradient from sea
level (Nigeria) to high-altitude regions (Uganda and Lesotho). They
postulated that it was the absence of tropical infections at high
altitudes that predisposed to more severe disease.
<<snip>>

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/448141_4

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ironjustice - 09 Apr 2007 18:48 GMT
The only treatment for thick blood is to be bled.

· the production of red blood cells, which carry oxygen through the
body, increase as the body acclimates to high altitude, allowing more
oxygen to be "grabbed" from every breath.

The body also responds to the lower oxygen levels by putting more red
blood cells into circulation. Up to a point, this is a good thing.
However, if it goes too far, the blood becomes thick and prone to
clotting. Clots which get dislodged float around and can cause
strokes, heart attacks, and pulmonary embolisms. The only treatment
for thick blood is to be bled.

http://www.k2news.com/lesson21.htm

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california_chief - 09 Apr 2007 16:23 GMT
numbnutz wrote:

> 'It Hurts When I Walk:' Venous Stasis Disease - Differential Diagnosis
> and Treatment
> Posted 02/07/2007
> Cynthia A. Worley, BSN, RN, COCN, CWCN

HEY!   numbnutz, why did you remove the following notice from your post?

All material on this website is protected by copyright, Copyright ©
1994-2007
by Medscape. This website also contains material copyrighted by 3rd parties.
ironjustice - 09 Apr 2007 17:07 GMT
>>On Apr 9, 9:18 am, "california_chief" <Fire_Chief@Jamacha_Junction_FD.ca.us> wrote:
 HEY!   numbnutz, why did you remove the following notice from your
post?<<

Glad you are still able to read .. there .. chief .. after ALL the
years of masturbation ..

You see .. people .. caring .. people .. SEND me .. stuff ..

I place .. stuff ..

You don't like my .. stuff .. other .. peoples' .. stuff .. ?

You would like to .. report .. people .. FOR .. placing .. medical ..
stuff .. ?

You .. like .. people who .. WITHHOLD .. medical .. stuff .. ?

Like liver toxicity studies of .. methotrexate .. ?

Describe that .. feeling ..

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california_chief - 09 Apr 2007 21:06 GMT
numbnutz wrote:

> Glad I am still able to read .. there .. chief .. after ALL the
> years of masturbation ..

Well, you finally admit what everyone has alway known.

... numbnutz is the syphilitic offspring of a mass Siberian gang whoopee!
howard.aubrey@gmail.com - 13 May 2007 15:45 GMT
On Apr 9, 12:18 pm, "california_chief"
<Fire_Chief@Jamacha_Junction_FD.ca.us> wrote:
> numbnutz wrote:
> > 'It Hurts When I Walk:' Venous Stasis Disease - Differential Diagnosis
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> 1994-2007
> by Medscape. This website also contains material copyrighted by 3rd parties.

Chiefy, what FD are you retired from and how long did you serve there?
Donna G. - 13 May 2007 16:18 GMT
Oh, for crying out loud, give it a rest you little liar troll!   Clearly
you are trying to harass chief to hide something in your volunteer
past!!!
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