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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Arthritis / February 2007

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Osteoartritis suplements

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Alpha One - 05 Feb 2007 06:53 GMT
I was diagnosed with cervical degenerative joint disease, osteoarthritis in
my neck. I heard about Glucosamine & Chondroitin + MSM. Anyone has tryed
this supplement with good
results?

Another question: I know two people who are taking Corta-Flx HA and are very
happy with the results; they can walk now when before they had dificulty
doing so. I know the two people personaly.
The thing is, Corta-Flx HA is for horses. They say the reason they use it
insteat of the human supplement is because it is (a lot) more effective. The
other didn't do anything, they say..The dosage they use is adjusted for they
own weight. The website says it features the pure, micro-sized, water
soluble, isolated nutrients comparable to the
active ingredients found in Chondroitin, Glucosamine, MSM and Hyaluronic
Acid. On the web page where you can order the stuff, they never mention it
can be used for people. All I saw is, it is for horses. So, I am afraid it
myght not be as pure or proper for humans. Anyone know about this product?

Thank you
Harvey R. Stone - 05 Feb 2007 14:19 GMT
"Alpha One" <alpe.net> wrote in message newsa...
>I was diagnosed with cervical degenerative joint disease, osteoarthritis in
>my neck. I heard about Glucosamine & Chondroitin + MSM. Anyone has tryed
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Thank you

Please see an arthritis doctor to receive real help with a plan for the
future.  Save your money and time see a Rheumatologist.

Harv
Alpha One - 05 Feb 2007 18:23 GMT
Two doctor have told me there isn't much they  can do. My father had the
same thing and the end result was he stoping walking.
I am trying to find out what other with the problem think.

> "Alpha One" <alpe.net> wrote in message newsa...
>>I was diagnosed with cervical degenerative joint disease, osteoarthritis
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Harv
GARY Z - 05 Feb 2007 19:04 GMT
> Two doctor have told me there isn't much they  can do. My father had the
> same thing and the end result was he stoping walking.
> I am trying to find out what other with the problem think.

Better find a better group of doctors than what you have seen if that is the
only options they can give you.
Perhaps your father lived before docs had the ability to do successful
surgery on the cervical spine, I don't know.
I do know that repairs can be done before one gets to the point of wheel
chair bound. If you have not yet had an MRI, that would be a good thing to
do. A neurosurgeon can then determine the degree of damage to this point and
make far better recommendations than you have gotten so far.
GaryZ
Fire Chief - 06 Feb 2007 04:02 GMT
> Two doctor have told me there isn't much they can do. My father
>  had the same thing and the end result was he stoping walking.
> I am trying to find out what other with the problem think.

A doctor who doesn't recommend a course of treatment, medicine, and
exercise for arthritis isn't worth the paper his degree is printed
on.
Remember, most doctors have only a BA.  The word "doctor" applies
to the job, not his education - no MA, no PhD..

You haven't revealed your age, and the types of doctors who diagnosed
your "arthritis".  There's a world of difference in  types of doctors
- OB/GYN
who treat "female" problems, pediatricians who treat children
illnesses, some
who are DOs/MDs/GPs/PCPs who don't have the foggest idea about
arthritis.

So tell us, have you seen a rheumatologist - a practitioneer who
knows more
about the 100+ types/forms of arthritis than everyone in this group
combined?

... Siglines:  A new life for old cliches and maxims.
Alpha One - 06 Feb 2007 05:17 GMT
One was Internal Medicine and the other maybe the same or General Medicine.
I did have a Cat Scan done which shows it is not that bad yet, but there is
some foramical encrochment. The reason why I did it was because I had a
strong tingling sensation in my left hand. The pain in my shoulders or arms
I just thought it was a sleeping position or something like that. Once I
knew what I had I could stop the tingling just by repositioning my head.
Lately I don't have the tingling or, at times, it is very slight. I do feel
a crackling in my neck as I move it. The pain isn't so bad, but bothersome
sometimes. I am 56 years old and in general good health otherwise.

>> Two doctor have told me there isn't much they can do. My father
>>  had the same thing and the end result was he stoping walking.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> ... Siglines:  A new life for old cliches and maxims.
Alpha One - 06 Feb 2007 05:39 GMT
I wanted to say General Pratice.

They said I have osteoarthritis. I understand that the cartilage gets worn
or somehow deteriorates. Because it is in the spine, when bone rubs agaist
bone, bone grows into the spinal cord cavity. When the pressure is strong
enough, you  loose control of your limbs. This usualy is a slow process. So,
my theory is, if I could stop my cartilage from deteriorating, or better
yet, if I could get it to regenerate, then there would be no more bone
growth into the wrong place and therefore not stop walking. Another idea
was, if I imobilized my neck, the rubing would stop and the bone growth too.
I wonder if this makes any sense or if any doctor has tryed it. I would
rather have to turn around to look back that stop walking.

> One was Internal Medicine and the other maybe the same or General
> Medicine. I did have a Cat Scan done which shows it is not that bad yet,
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>>
>> ... Siglines:  A new life for old cliches and maxims.
GARY Z - 06 Feb 2007 12:06 GMT
While a GP can identify your problem, he has no means of treating it. a
neurosurgeon will be your guy when the time comes. What you describe is
spinal stenosis and it is surgically treatable. In fact, it is a rather
common procedure these days. The worse the stenosis gets, the more risky the
surgery becomes.
As to the arm and hand tingling, is it in the last two fingers of your hand,
forearm,shoulder, neck? If it is isolated to these areas it may be a crushed
ulnar in your elbow. I say this because for many, many years I blamed my
neck. Had nerve conduction tests done and found out the problem was actually
in my elbow. Had to have surgery to stop it from getting worse. Wish I'd had
the surgery much sooner before the damage was done to the extent it
is-constant pain even after the surgery. But at least it won't get any
worse.
GaryZ

>I wanted to say General Pratice.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> growth too. I wonder if this makes any sense or if any doctor has tryed
> it. I would rather have to turn around to look back that stop walking.
jb - 06 Feb 2007 16:12 GMT
As most of you know I have just had surgery for spinal stenosis.  My problem
was in my lower back and I could not walk or sit. I had extreme pain in my
back,hip and down my left leg to my foot. I tried everything anyone told me
to help it but finally had to go under the knife, I am still recouping
(4 weeks) but the pain down my legs is gone.I only have the pain from the
incision. let me tell you it is a major surgery,it took my surgeon 7 hrs and
then I also had some complications but I do feel the surgery for the
stenosis was successful. if you have any more questions feel free to email
me
janice

| While a GP can identify your problem, he has no means of treating it. a
| neurosurgeon will be your guy when the time comes. What you describe is
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
| > growth too. I wonder if this makes any sense or if any doctor has tryed
| > it. I would rather have to turn around to look back that stop walking.
spodosaurus - 06 Feb 2007 12:21 GMT
> I wanted to say General Pratice.

You REALLY need to see a rheumatologist! Get a referral and make an
appointment ASAP.

Regards,

Ari

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spammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply
Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow transplant. Please
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Fire Chief - 06 Feb 2007 19:37 GMT
> I wanted to say General Pratice.

Not qualified to diagnose or treat the 100+ types of arthritis.

> They said I have osteoarthritis. I understand that the cartilage gets worn
> or somehow deteriorates.

Same thing happens with ankylosing spondylitis, which is very common
among men.
Used to call it a Caucasian male disease.  Then more and more women
began to
show the same symptoms.

Begins in the spine and spreads to the shoulders/neck and hip/legs.

You really, really need to see a rheumatologist who can confirm the
findings and
offer some choices of trreatment.

A doctor who says he can't help you should be booted out of the
profession.

... A lady is a woman who makes a gentleman act like one.
spodosaurus - 06 Feb 2007 12:20 GMT
>> Two doctor have told me there isn't much they can do. My father
>>  had the same thing and the end result was he stoping walking.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>  exercise for arthritis isn't worth the paper his degree is printed
> on.

I guess it depends on the specifics of the patient's disease, but we
don't know the real qualifications of these doctors. Are they even
rhuematologists?

>  Remember, most doctors have only a BA.  The word "doctor" applies
>  to the job, not his education - no MA, no PhD..

I think you underestimate the rigours of medical school, internship,
residency, specialised training, board certification, etc. At least in
western nations...where is the OP from?

Ari

Signature

spammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply
Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow transplant. Please
volunteer to be a marrow donor and literally save someone's life:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

Nann Bell - 06 Feb 2007 14:22 GMT
>  Remember, most doctors have only a BA.  The word "doctor" applies
>  to the job, not his education - no MA, no PhD..

actually, most doctors have the equivalent of a Masters degree - they get
their bachelors, then go to med school for their graduate work.

Decades back at UF the med schooll wanted their degree recipients to walk
with the PhD recipients.  They were denied - MDs had to walk with Masters
recipients because they had not done the equivalent of a dissertation.  (in
fact, most hadn't even done the equivalent of a thesis, but we won't go down
that route.)  So, the med school, in a fit of pique, set up their own
graduation, separate from the rest of the university.  All the PhDs on
faculty were much amused, my father included.  Now the university is so large
they have to have several graduations to handle the crowdss.

Signature

Nann
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Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare

Joan Carter - 06 Feb 2007 17:13 GMT
>actually, most doctors have the equivalent of a Masters degree - they get
>their bachelors, then go to med school for their graduate work.

And they start with a BSc, not a BA. After that comes four years of med school
and either two years of Family Practice residency or four years of residency in
a specialty such as Paediatrics, Surgery, then two years as a fellow if
specializing in one particular type of surgery. Oh, and I just heard they can't
even get into med school now without an average of 90%! I think they are
educated. I don't agree with the 90%, because just because you can make a great
mark in an exam doesn't necessarily mean you are doctor material, but the
competition for spots in med school is so intense that is what it is. This is in
Canada, I don't know what other countries do.
---
Joan
d'huit - 08 Feb 2007 08:40 GMT
On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 14:22:06 GMT, Nann Bell <hanbellGOGATORS@earthlink.net>
wrote in alt.support.arthritis:

>actually, most doctors have the equivalent of a Masters degree - they get
>their bachelors, then go to med school for their graduate work.

And they start with a BSc, not a BA. After that comes four years of med
school
and either two years of Family Practice residency or four years of residency
in
a specialty such as Paediatrics, Surgery, then two years as a fellow if
specializing in one particular type of surgery. Oh, and I just heard they
can't
even get into med school now without an average of 90%! I think they are
educated. I don't agree with the 90%, because just because you can make a
great
mark in an exam doesn't necessarily mean you are doctor material, but the
competition for spots in med school is so intense that is what it is. This
is in
Canada, I don't know what other countries do.
---
Joan

that's about what it is like here in wash., too, joan.  b.s. is pre-med,
though.  their MD is a degree equivalent, of taking a masters in science and
in the specialties they do have to publish in a medical journal (from what
i've been told).  my pain specialist/doctor has several MS's.  i think the
med school entry requirement is just a tad higher than 90% here, because of
the competition for placement, too.  i agree with you about the test scores.
medicine itself is more viseral/instinctive, than simply analytical, though
a good diagnostician seems to be a bit more analytical than the average
doctor.

kate
Nann Bell - 08 Feb 2007 15:13 GMT
> And they start with a BSc, not a BA. After that comes four years of med
> school
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> ---
> Joan

med school admission in the states isn't nearly as competitive as it used to
be.  I'm not sure where med school ranks noow, but I know clinical psych and
vet school are the most difficult programs to get into.  Med school's fall in
popularity probably has something to do with the malpractice set-up in the
states.  :-(

Also, in the states, the bachelor's degree specialty varies a lot more now.  
Many are not pre-med undergrads.  It's a combo of the lessened
competitiveness and a growing belief that a liberal arts education gives
everyone a more well-rounded background.  But you do need certain science and
math courses or you'll have to make them up in med school at graduate tuition
prices.  Most doctors say they never used that specialized science or math
after they finished those courses, but they are still required.  (pre-med
students used to drive my dad nuts because he was *serious* about chemistry
and they just wanted an A.  Never could get too serious about chemistry
myself........)

Signature

Nann
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Simply the thing I am shall make me live --- William Shakespeare

shenmei9wise@gmail.com - 08 Feb 2007 18:24 GMT
> >actually, most doctors have the equivalent of a Masters degree - they get
> >their bachelors, then go to med school for their graduate work.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> ---
> Joan

Joan,
I can relate to that.  In California, you have to have an
undergraduate degree and then a ton of science prerequisites to get
into acupuncture shcool which is a four year program.  My class
consisted of a group of 23 very brilliant people who all had graduate
degrees.  We were fircely competitive academically but then comes
clinic....<g>  I have never been with so many people who were so
involved with thier own academic brilliance that they never even saw
the patient.  TOday, four of that class practice.  Many of them
decided they just didn't like sick people.  Somea decided the money
was better in the tech worldd.  The nurse, the thearapist, the single
mom who barely made it through the science requirements and I are
still practicing.

To Alpha,
I have seen literally dozens of times internists and GPs misdiagnose
OA when it is actually an inflammatory arthritis.  You have to start
with a diagnosis and a Rheumatologist should be the guiding doc.  I am
working with a guy right now who was told he had OA and exercise and
pain meds were the only thing to do.  I pushed him for two years to
see a rheumatologist.He did, finally.  He has PA, is now on enbrel,
doing fairly well but all that joint errosion that could have been
slowed 2-3 years ago has just gone on unchecked.  t makes me really
angry .
That said, there are supplments that have worked for many people and
that many rheumatologists recommend. It is going to take research to
find what works for you.

Make your bottom line "can it possibly do any harm?" (what doesn't
work with other meds I'm taking? What is dangerous with hypertension?
What may be contraindicated with diabetes etc. etc. etc.)  Then look
at efficacy studies.  Google Cush GS/c  or glucosamine page in recent
ASA archives will give you info on supplements.  I personally don't
use vet glucosamine or MSM.  Prices are good but the purity doesn't
have to be the same.  All supplements are not created equal.  Check
into acupuncture.  If you indeed have spinal stenosis, get it treated
soon rather than later if you choose a surgery option.

Stick around and use the archive fuction fo google.  Every possible
supplement has been discussed, studies have been posted, and on and
on.

You will get good answers and this group will help you through those
dark nights of the soul that we all have with chronic manageable
conditions.

Melinda
Fire Chief - 05 Feb 2007 18:02 GMT
> I was diagnosed with cervical degenerative joint disease, osteoarthritis in
> my neck. I heard about Glucosamine & Chondroitin + MSM. Anyone has tryed
> this supplement with good results?
> Thank you

What answer(s), if any, did you receive after posting this word-for-
word in alt.health on October 23, 2006?

117 newsgroups?  My, you're a busy person.

... Medicine:  The art of amusing the ill while nature heals.
Alpha One - 05 Feb 2007 18:18 GMT
Not one answer. But there must be someone out there that heard of the
product(s).

>> I was diagnosed with cervical degenerative joint disease, osteoarthritis
>> in
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> ... Medicine:  The art of amusing the ill while nature heals.
Chuck Olson - 05 Feb 2007 18:56 GMT
> I was diagnosed with cervical degenerative joint disease, osteoarthritis in
> my neck. I heard about Glucosamine & Chondroitin + MSM. Anyone has tryed
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Thank you

Putting aside the question of purity for human consumption for a moment, I
found that Glucosamine, Chondroitin, and MSM  (GC&M) had an odd
psychological effect on me when I took Triple Flex GC&M (3 a day) pills - -
I felt anxious - - and the effect wore off in half a day if taking only two
a day. As far as their effect on arthritis complaints, I have no information
since it takes a few weeks of use before anything happens, and I stopped
taking it immediately. However I have been taking Glucosamine in the form of
Aflexa (now no longer manufactured), and it has kept me in pretty decent
shape (no pain anywhere at 75 y.o.) for quite a while. I expect to replace
Aflexa with Now Foods Glucosamine Hydrochloride 1000 mg when my supply runs
out. Everyone's different, and my problem with Triple Flex may only be due
to some unique body chemistry or drug interaction with blood pressure or
cholesterol medication. But any psychological effect is totally undetectable
when I use Glucosamine alone.

I was tempted to try supplements for horses, and if I find my joints start
deteriorating with what I'm taking, I don't think I would hesitate - - the
price is often much better than with products for human consumption. Whether
it is pure or not, who knows? - - you can only try it and see what happens.
Sometimes there's a problem with measuring out the smaller dose suitable for
a human body size, so that would be the only area of concern I can suggest
at the outset. If you have a foolproof way to measure the stuff, why not?

Obviously I have no medical training or knowledge, so don't consider my
comments as authoritative. The advice to consult your doctor is very good
advice indeed.
Alpha One - 05 Feb 2007 22:46 GMT
I started to take a product about one month ago, by Symtec in liquid form
"Joit Movement Glucosamine with Chondroitin + MSM" wich contain
Glucosamine2000 mg, Chondroitin 1200 mg, MSM 500 mg, colagen 50 mg, Vitamin
C 60 mg, Vitamin D 400 mg and Sodium 75 MG.
I am not sure yet if it's working but I think I feel a diference for the
better.

>> I was diagnosed with cervical degenerative joint disease, osteoarthritis
> in
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
> comments as authoritative. The advice to consult your doctor is very good
> advice indeed.
GARY Z - 06 Feb 2007 03:24 GMT
>I started to take a product about one month ago, by Symtec in liquid form
>"Joit Movement Glucosamine with Chondroitin + MSM" wich contain
>Glucosamine2000 mg, Chondroitin 1200 mg, MSM 500 mg, colagen 50 mg, Vitamin
>C 60 mg, Vitamin D 400 mg and Sodium 75 MG.
> I am not sure yet if it's working but I think I feel a diference for the
> better.

If you have what you claim to have then that stuff isn't going to help you.
Get serious.
GaryZ
 
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